This is the keyboard I’ve been hoping Apple would make for years! I’ve currently got a UHK 60 but would probably switch to this if I could buy it. Especially if it had the standard Apple keyboard layout so my fingers don’t need to relearn things like arrow keys and cmd like when I switch between the UHK and MacBook keyboard.

I really just want a wireless 60v2. Been debating trying to make a new PCB that uses a nice!nano.

I’m sure the devils in the details.

Me too. Low-profile is nicer to joints in the long run, and also makes me type faster due to low-travel switches. Bonus points if it has a little bit of negative tilt.

In this regard, I found Microsoft Sculpt really good because it ticked all ergonomic boxes but it didn't require relearning. However, quality was a bit subpar, it didn't offer a wired option, and it has been discontinued. The entire lineup was actually sold to Incase, who are releasing it again soon.

I have had 3 of which 1 has bricked itself.

Yes. Agreed.

This is so funny, I dived into the custom keyboard rabbit hole just 3 weeks ago. Never thought this would be so intriguing and time consuming.

Did you consider Mill-Max Sockets?

My personal favorite are 80% TKL ISO low profile keyboards, which is quite uncommon and I've not found much except the

  Keychron K1 Max 

having this layout. Unfortunately, the integrated Gateron brown/red/... low profile switches are not my thing - my favorite ones would be Lofree Kailh Ghost, but these don't fit the keyboard, although it is hot swappable because low profile switches are non standard (at least 2 different layouts I know of).

So I also thought about a custom solution. I found pretty impressive open source firmware and pcbs [1], but I noticed that I just didn't have the time to do all this. Since keyboards are so an individual device, manufacturing bigger batches is risky and manufacturing smaller batches is expensive... so pretty much no choice than waiting for someone having the same dream as I have or do it myself after shoving free enough time.

1: https://github.com/4pplet/waffling80/issues/1

Bravo! You have elevated a honed tool to a truly engaging artifact! I think the large challenge in design is mitigating the breaking point between ruthless efficiency and endearing novelty.

I picked up a Let's Split v2[0] when it came out years ago and never soldered it up.. maybe it's time!

[0]https://shop.beekeeb.com/product/lets-split-v2-keyboard-pcb-...

For next iteration, consider integrating trackpads?

Moving to the mouse and back is pain enough that people go all-in on keyboard-only interfaces.

I velcroed a trackpad to the middle of a Kinesis Advantage. Now I use either hand for the mouse, and even stretch a finger or thumb to the pad without leaving the keys. The movement is little different from using the keyboard.

But for split keyboard, you'd need one trackpad for each side, and in dimensions not readily available. hmm.

I want a trackpads integrated into the keys. Under the J key a trackpad with low sensitifity, and under the K key a trackpad with high sensitivity.

Brilliant! Use modifier keys with your left hand for either key entry or mouse click?

So happy to read this because I don't see it mentioned often enough.

I have a ErgoDox EZ, and I still prefer using my Framework 13 (with Kanata![0]) because having my thumbs navigate the trackpad is so convenient even with a keyboard-driven setup.

[0] https://github.com/jtroo/kanata

I put a trackball (Kensington Expert Mouse) in between the keyboard halves. With tenting it can nestle in quite close.

Fantastically beautiful keyboard!

Keyboards are such a good hobby project. The scope is comparatively small, yet within that scope you get in contact with many different and highly interesting subjects and challenges. And you can more or less pick and choose, which ones you engage with (wireless vs wired, soldering vs hand-wired, custom firmware vs. ZMK/QMK, split vs. traditional).

Personal opinion, but I really don’t get low-profile keyboards. I always need a foam cushion for my palms, which means that a normal profile always feels best for me. Low feels too low with a cushion, and yet still feels too high without one.

I know what you mean, but there's also a big difference between key height and keyboard height.

There's also a common misconception that it's ergonomic to angle a keyboard "upward" (elevating the back of the keyboard), when correct ergonomics is actually to angle the keyboard downwards (elevate the front).

See if you have a long object a little shorter than your foam cushion that you can scotch tape to the bottom of the front of a low-profile Apple keyboard, so that you still use the foam cushion but the front of the keyboard is at the same level as the cushion, and then angles downwards.

And then you get the advantages of the short key travel, which just means your fingers move less and so there's less force/strain.

You may find it shockingly comfortable!

keyboard upward or downward angulation depends on your wrist support, arm position/chair height... what's optimal and generic to suggest because how our upper extremity muscles are, (at least for mouse but i think it can work for keyboards too) [0] is having it sides angled from 20° up to 30°, subjective exprience also plays a role

you can easily find MX switches that have equal or +- 0.5mm travel lenght as low-profiles ones... which considering how thin PCB (and even handwired) flat keyboards are, i can't see the point unless you are supporting your arms in the same table your keyboard is! i rather have my arms floating so i can use shoulder and elbow movement for distant keys other than wrist movements but who cares :P

[0] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00036...

> keyboard upward or downward angulation depends on...

It doesn't. But to clarify: it should always be downwards relative to your forearm. And your forearm should be generally be about horizontal (or a little bit downwards is OK too).

A keyboard that is angled upwards puts constant strain on the top of your wrist. There are no circumstances where this is a good thing (assuming you don't have injury/disability that requires other accommodations).

Also, your link is about mice not keyboards, and about angling mice sideways. It has no relevance to angling keyboards up/down. (But yes, "vertical" mice, that are angled in reality, are much better too.)

Correct. So many people get this wrong, and there are so many misconceptions around, that there is actual market pressure to deliver upwards-tilting keyboards and wrist pads.

If you want to get your keyboard and desk ergonomics correct, look at pianists. They have it nailed down. Elbows at right angle, no wrist supports, sitting straight. And guess what, the piano keyboards are not upwards-tilting! Unfortunately, most of our desks are too high relative to the chairs we sit in.

various resources from universities recommend having your forearm angled between 90-120°, which if it's > 90°, an front angulation doesn't make sense at all... [0]

> Also, your link is about mice not keyboards, and about angling mice sideways

the author points out another research, i should have linked it instead of that one [1]... but it's about the ideal slanted angle considering how our muscles are structured; the author even cites that suggestions as something not taking relative preferences, which is totally fair as some people may use their computers for a short time in very awkward positions and that's fine

[0] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S10506...

[1] yet about mouse but please take your time to read what's was typed in the paper regarding the slant angle suggestion -- https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S02680...

> recommend having your forearm angled between 90-120°

That's what I said ("your forearm should be generally be about horizontal (or a little bit downwards is OK too)"). Never upward.

> which if it's > 90°, an front angulation doesn't make sense at all.

If you want a 10° downwards angle on the keyboard relative to your forearm and your forearm is 5° upwards, then your keyboard still needs 5° downward relative to your desk. If your desk is so high that your forearms are angled up 20° from the horizontal, then something is extremely wrong with your chair/desk height.

And your first link supports exactly what I wrote:

> The natural position of your hands with respect to the relative vertical position at the wrist is along the plane or below it (i.e. you want the tips of your fingers to be at the same height as your wrist or preferably slightly lower). When your hand rises above this plane (making the hand signal for 'STOP'), this is called dorsiflexion or wrist extension. This greatly reduces blood flow through the wrist and can quickly cause pain, fatigue and numbness. Most keyboards have a 'foot' located at the back of the keyboard which is not desirable as it creates a positively inclined keyboarding surface. Many articulating arms offer the option of a negative inclination, which will make the entire work surface slope away from you, ensuring that your hands are not 'bent' upward at the wrist.

And I don't know why you've added another link about sideways mouse slant. That has nothing to do with up-down keyboard/arm angle. If there's some relevant sentence in it, please quote it, because I can find nothing relevant in the publicly available text.

You ask me to "please take your time to read" -- I suggest you take the time to re-read your own first link. It makes clear there is no situation where a keyboard angled upwards (the back of the keyboard elevated) is good ergonomics -- exactly what I said.

you are right, i always considered the front of the keyboard what you considered the back, sorry for this (and by the way, i changed the link to a more generic one citing the variation of 90° -> 120° i typed of one easily finding by surfing the internet)

on the 2° paper, > Among the five tested mice, the 25° or 30° slanted mice caused lower muscle activity and more neutral working postures for ECU, Trap and PT muscles.

these muscles are also used during keyboard usage. slant angle is always suggested on ergonomic research, as our arms muscles are tensioned/twisted when using a flat keyboard/mouse... you can easily find research pointing slant angle on ergonomic keyboards but the research i pointed out is interesting as the author actually studied which is the optimal angle based on our anatomy (there's tension/forces on greater slant angles to maintain the posture, as there aren't surfaces to support our hand) and not on individual preference

No worries! Just trying to save people from wrist pain. :)

And yes -- slanting the keyboard that way is usually called keyboard tenting. Also highly recommended, but difficult to implement in practice because it requires an even lower base for the keyboard, and there aren't many good accessories out there for it, sadly...

I'm still waiting for someone to sell a cheap kit for angling keyboards downwards and implementing tenting. It's kind of complex to do both at once...

As a low-profile keyboard zealot, I'm trying to imagine why you'd need a foam pad under your palm. But maybe I'm odd. My entire forearm rests on my desk and supports my arm weight so nothing is pushing down on my hands. Then my hands flow directly over the LP keyboard without any appreciable bend in my wrist.

My take is that finger muscle are really different from person to person, to a degree that can be surprising.

I might be at the other extreme end, but even typing on glass doesn't bother me much, and laptop keyboards are a good compromise to have just enough travel and not too much.

I tried a nuphy low profile and it was tiring after a while. The thinkpad standalone trackpoint keyboard has been my go to for a while, and tgis keyboard also looks great to me.

Squishy keyboards make the tendons on the backs of my hand burn after a while. After Apple stopped producing their wired keyboard, which I used for everything, I bought a bunch of surplus ones and burned through them. I tried a few knockoffs, several of which were close, and now I’m on the wireless ones.

I was surprised as anyone when an Apple keyboard became my gaming keyboard.

Another opinion:

I want this keyboard to put on a bookshelf and never use, haha. It is really nice looking. It sounds like it was an incredible learning experience and making something so polished and professional looking is a real accomplishment. But low profile, no pads, ortho layout, and no tenting… my eyes ache for the beauty of the thing but my hands just ache.

But anyway, ergonomics are personal so I can’t really judge.

> ...low profile, no pads, ortho layout, and no tenting...

I agree with the tenting remark, I can understand the preference against low profile, but I sincerely believe ortholinear is way better for one's hands than staggered. Maybe you mean it's a shame it's not columnar?

> ...ergonomics are personal...

Hear, hear!

I agree. It looks like with this it would be near impossible to press the lower left/right keys with my palm, which is something that helps take the load off my pinkies. It does look like a fun project though.

Sorry for uninvited advice, but you really shouldn't be using the keys in the corners for common actions (so common that you have a need to take the load off you pinkies). Utilise the CapsLock [1, 2]. (This key is so misbalanced in terms of prime key estate to utility ratio!) Better yet, try using home row modifiers [3].

[1]: https://wiki.c2.com/?RemapCapsLock

[2]: https://www.reddit.com/r/vim/comments/1442ads/mapping_capslo...

[3]: https://mattgemmell.scot/home-row-mods/

Mostly the offenders are enter and -=[];'./_+{}:">?. My solution was to move \)}>][<({/ to the center (two new columns between G and H) and then to move enter and " to the corners for palm pressing--this is all at the "symbol" layer which I activate by holding the keys where my thumbs go. I rather like it: https://configure.zsa.io/planck-ez/layouts/RgRVl/latest/1

So I guess that means that the position formerly occupied by caps lock is now... 'a'? I haven't bothered to configure a caps lock. Haven't needed it.

Bonus, this is all handled in the keyboard firmware so I don't have to bother reconfiguring the OS. I just plug in the keyboard wherever and I'm all set.

So while I like your advice... I may be too far gone to take it. I can still type on a normal keyboard with their silly staggered rows to prevent typewriter jams, but I don't think I'll ever go back to feeling like it's a good idea to do so.

TBF, I strayed quite far from “normal” keyboard as well [1]: I use a 36 key split (15+3 for each hand); Dvorak layout; all special symbols are on L2; return, escape, tab, and space are on the thumb clusters (along with backspace and language switcher); modifiers are on the home row. All this ensures no finger ever has to travel more than one key away from its resting position. I’m quite happy with this setup and am working on a thinner and more polished version of my keyboard. To each their own, I guess.

[1]: Writing the GP comment I was cautious not to be that rando who goes “you’re doing it all wrong! you gotta reconfigure your whole system and your brain!” to a stranger, so I limited myself to the, IMHO, bare minimum advice. ;)

I like the look of those minimal split setups. I'm currently using a planck half the time and an ergodox the other half. But because my brain has moved into the planck, more than 50% of the keys on the ergodox are just gathering dust.

My next step on this path, if I ever take it, probably resembles your setup. If/when I take it, I'll explore the modifiers on home row approach, it does sound nice :)

It really depends on personal preferences. I find it best to hover the wrists while typing and rest while idle. In such case no palm rest paired with reasonably low profile works best.

I like low-profile in theory, but in practices there's so many high quality mx profile switches, and everything in low-profile land seems a bit substandard. I can't go back to unlubed linears, or scratchy brown clones.

I love this.

Totally have been here done that. While my aesthetics are a bit different than yours, the core idea is very similar. I just imagined if Nuphy and Planck would have a twin and come up with this. I was on a budget so I basically said fuck it to the thickness and just kept the size small. Everything was FDM and I even had a 3d printable pcb-not-so-pcb if you can’t wait at all. This runs zmk for full wireless experience, uses an nrf controller and have a battery life of over a month. I even had custom keycap with stickers on it so I can lookup rarely used keys.

PS. The only cons or why I am not running this for everything is that you kind of need 2 hand to do certain things like pause the music or adjusting volume.

Photo: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZwvTO3jMyY0JBKoYrA88sJk-7SX...

I’m currently using the kinesis advantage. It’s a great keyboard but I’ve been hoping to find a wireless split keyboard for a while. This one looks great.

My ideal keyboard would be taking a Magic keyboard (in black or space gray) and splitting it into two. This is the closest I have seen. I'm too committed to a standard layout to go ortho linear at this point, but I admit it looks the most sleek and modern for sure.

> My ideal keyboard would be taking a Magic keyboard (in black or space gray) and splitting it into two.

Me, too. I feel there's a lot of us who want precisely this. I want every key that's on the Magic Keyboard. I already have a number of other Karabiner bindings, like the Hyper key, so I'm adding "layers" that way.

I feel the large spaces in the middle could instead be for a trackpad. One side only of course, the other would have keys up to the edge. I often long for the convenience of the inbuilt mac trackpad when I'm using an external bluetooth keyboard and trackpad. Unfortunately the edges and the location of the trackpad charging port make it not ideal.

That's insane, nice work!

I know quite a few people who would buy if you ever produced even 10 of them. Part 2 having charging magnets would seem good. Me personally, I don't have 2 usb-c ports lying around that aren't already used :P

Nice write-up.

For something so thin, your soldering woes aren't surprising. The standard way to manage that would have been to solder everything in one go on a hot plate (reflow soldering).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QarizoUnRfk

This video features the exact same technique and hot plate that was used here.

> reflow soldering

one of the most satisfying things to watch

Criticism: - Non-standard layout - Where's the arrow keys block? Insert/delete/home/end/pgup/pgdown block? - Non-staggered keys makes it hard to type due to mistyping on the wrong row

Questions: - Do you have nkey rollover? - Would you accept "optional" wires? Note: gaming requires fast response times. Hell even programming/writing sucks when there's key lag.

> Where's the arrow keys block? Insert/delete/home/end/pgup/pgdown block?

In the nav layer. One popular layout of split keyboards is two 3x5 grids of keys with 3 thumb buttons. With this configuration, it is common to map modifier keys to the home row keys, activated when they are held down. Likewise, for numbers, symbols, navigation, a thumb key is held down to activate that layer. Your fingers never have to stretch more than one key-length away.

Miryoku is a popular implmentation of this. It looks crazy, but you can get used to it really quickly, or alter it to your own taste.

https://github.com/manna-harbour/miryoku

I actually don't think I'll be going back to a staggered keyboard. Ortholinear layouts make setting up layers a lot easier, which gives you the ability to set up momentary arrow key or cursor movement blocks.

ZMK supports N-key rollover and layers.

Ortholinear is a standard but non-orthodox layout for keyboards. And when you see 60%, it means you are getting only the main alphanumeric section with esc often smushed into what would otherwise be the ~/` key.

With 60% keyboards, you are often using modifier layers baked into the keyboards' firmware to get back your function keys and your control block like page up

I mean, if you're going to design and build a keyboard only for yourself all from scratch, why would you expect a standard layout? The whole thing is bespoke to you.

The trade off you make with these keyboards is that you have to learn a different muscle memory, in return for less finger contortions, more comfort, and less hand waving around the keyboard.

If that's not appealing to you, there's probably no reason to get into it. If it is appealing to you to live mostly on your homerow, then the learning curve is not all that great, maybe a couple of months.

OP, congrats on the product and effort. _NOTHING_ beats prototyping and building.

For other split-mechanical keyboards check out:

ZSA Voyager

Moergo Glove 80

Yeah this is awesome.

For keyboards really similar to OP's

The keyboard they were inspired by (not for sale... yet?): https://old.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/1cfg3vr/...

Corneish (out of stock): https://lowprokb.ca/products/corne-ish-zen?variant=376943319... Unicorne: https://new.boardsource.xyz/products/unicorne-LP

The corneish is an absolute gem in my opinion. It is possibly (probably?) open-sourced too.

I have the voyager and I'm really very happy with it. No wrist pain when I'm typing a lot.

https://imgur.com/pklEZSh

Ambients Silent Choc Switches (20g Linear), keycaps from worklouder (Pure)

Gorgeous! How do the worklouder pures compare to the stock keycaps?

I wasn't sure how I would like the keycaps when I ordered it. Hard to describe but they feel better than the stock keycaps (with the silent switches) and sound a little better when I strike the plastic keycaps. The stock keycaps have a slight hollow sound (if I recall correctly).

less specifically like OP's, but a really great product that I and a bunch of my coworkers use: the 'Ultimate Hacking Keyboard' 60 (typically referred to as a UHK). I have mine with the palmrest and the recent riser accessory, so I use it split and tented for less wrist/forearm tension.

I have the ZSA Moonlander and absolutely love it! Definitely recommend it!

Also, should you prioritize ergonomics over function or form, the Kinesis Advantage 360 Professional

Not sure if you're familiar with it, but Glove80 which the parent comment you were replying to is very similar to Kinesis boards (concave keywell, staggered columnar layout, etc.) but leverages a lot of the open source stuff like ZMK firmware that Kinesis doesn't support https://www.moergo.com/

Edit: nevermind, I just learned that the advantage360 pro uses ZMK as well. Either way, they both seem like great options for people who prioritize the ergonomics over aesthetics :)

"Sans stagger — I’m not against stagger, I just love the neat look of a pain rectangle." [sic]

What an apt typo :)

Haha I didn’t think it would be misinterpreted as a typo. It’s colloquially called “pain rectangle” within the ergo community. But happy it amused the readers. I edited the article to include that explanation!

Pain indeed. I tried an ortho layout a few weeks ago on a split Corne and developed really bad wrist pain. No idea why, but it went away after reverting to a stagger and giving that hand a break

I’m personally not convinced by the theory of ortho.

It seems to stem from the idea that stagger is a hangover from the typewriter, in which it was required to make room for the mechanics, and that if we didn’t need to make them like that, we wouldn’t have.

Hence the keys should be lined up so your fingers just move up and down.

However I think this has 2 problems.

1) Most ortho keyboards have 5 columns for 4 fingers.

2) In stagger I use different fingers to strike the same letter dependent on what the preceding letter was, so that I almost never use the same finger twice in a row. You can’t do this in ortho if the 2 letters are in the same column, leading to more repeated strikes from the same finger.

Which I would expect is both slower and more straining.

But maybe my technique is weird, or haven’t given the ortho enough time.

(if you like ortho, good for you, not trying to spoil your fun, just musing)

> the theory of ortho

What theory of ortho? It's merely a rejection of stagger. Stagger represents our unwillingness to try new things even if the old thing makes no sense whatsoever.

OK, attitude aside now: for me it's partly about the ability to find keys by feel. With stagger you can learn touch typing one row above the home row and one row below the home row, no problem. But when you start trying to learn touch typing for the number row the difficulty jumps up significantly, because the nonsensical stagger makes it difficult to feel your way up the column.

So the benefits of ortho, according to me:

- It's easier to touch type once you eliminate the stagger, especially when deviating more than one row.

- Being better able to feel your way around helps with gaming, as does removing the stagger from WASD.

- Being straightened out allows you to map a numpad over the keys, to be invoked with a function key. I tried this with stagger and it was awful.

- I just dig the way it looks. It's like a lazy cartoon drawing of a keyboard.

Vertical stagger is where it's at. Shifting key height per column put keeping columns straight.

The comfortable level of stagger is individual. I just can't with ortho but I guess it's a good fit for some folks' hands. For most of us, middle finger rests comfortably in a higher spot than pinky does. Just look at your hand. You won't really know until you try yourself.

AFAIK your technique is very weird. Traditionally, every key has an assigned finger.

If you think about regular keyboard stagger though, your fingers are always going towards the top left. It's not uniform.

So if this sort of stagger is good, do we want top left stagger on one side, and top right stagger on the other?

The grid layout makes this look so futuristic (and anime [1]). It looks very cool, though I wonder how long it'd take to get used to one, having only ever typed on staggered layouts.

[1] https://gifer.com/es/BFCV

I went from only using my MacBook's builtin keyboard to using a Lily58 split keyboard and it took probably about 2 weeks to fully adjust. I started out at around 100-110 wpm on the standard keyboard. On the first day of the split I was doing about 20-30 wpm, after a week I was up to 60 wpm, and then 80wpm after 2 weeks. Kept improving more slowly after that. I did switch cold turkey, i.e. using it 100% of the time including at work.

Now I'm about a year and a half later and am up to 140wpm. I think the biggest problem for me on the standard keyboard is the bottom row index fingers and pinkies, the "natural" motion of my fingers lands right in between the two keys on those fingers so I used to make a lot of mistakes there, especially when typing fast.

I think other commenters are overstating the change from staggered to columnar. I type just fine (100 WPM+) going between my Moonlander (split keyboard from ZSA) and my Lenovo/Macbook (typical staggered layouts).

In hindsight, the biggest issue I ran into switching keyboards was that I was too ambitious playing around with the key configuration. The configurability is a big draw but I took for granted that I had already built up years of natural tendency for certain things - which thumb I use for space, preferences for Ctrl/Alt/Command/Option, for Shift, etc.

The default for these keyboards probably don't 100% align with what you're used to, so you should directly map what you're doing currently over to the keymap of the keyboard and then you can fiddle with making it yours over time.

I will say that if you're not already a touch typer, then a split keyboard is not going to help and it will be more difficult to get used to.

edit: also, if anything, going columnar helped me actually consistently hit number keys!

tl;dr: don't be afraid of trying it.

In my case, going from a regular keyboard to a split one like he Raise[1] took me 10 minutes of adaption time. My second split one was (is) a columnar (the Defy[2]), and I must confess that the adaption time was something like three days. Mostly because I kept failing to correctly push a few keys (like the C). Now I can indistinctly work with a columnar or a stagged one with zero problem. In fact, I usually use both types many days.

That said, I thought that the change would make me feel more comfortable, but to be honest in my case the difference is not big at all.

[1] https://dygma.com/pages/dygma-raise-2

[2] https://dygma.com/pages/defy

Took a few weeks to get used to, but I love it now (Planck), and I'm just as fast, if not a bit faster, than on my laptop keyboard. It's also much easier for me to use my right small finger to hit P than it is on a "normal" keyboard.

I was taught to touch-type on a standard QWERTY keyboard at a very young age. I picked up an Ergodox EZ after nearly 20 years of that. It unfortunately took me at least a couple years before I was 100% again - probably 6 months to a year to get "used" to it and not mistype keys regularly.

They're worth it though!

I once did a ton of research and settled on an ergonomic split keyboard. I ended up using it for a while but never fully got used to it enough to actually type well with it. In fact, it screwed up my typing and now I make more mistakes than I used to years later. I regret it so much. I don't understand split keyboards.

Awesome! Looks like it accompanied an apple trackpad, super sleek.

I'm also using nice!nanos in my projects, and they're great little devices. At this point I'd love there to be a good alternative using a dongle, though... I have a desktop PC that I want to use them with, and since they can't connect via Bluetooth at boot time, I always have to connect them to select a boot option and unlock my ZFS drive.

Having an affordable or open source controller that can do split as well as nice!nanos, but also switch between Bluetooth and a dongle is like the holy grail to me. I'd instantly buy 10.

People make their own dongles using another nice!nano or something more compact like the Xiao BLE

This is beautiful. I'm a "Let's Split" style keyboarder as well so this made me giddy! There's a distinct lack of solid cases out there for this layout style.

You mention possibly mass producing the next round. Please add a notify email list or something. I'd be all over this.

I think cases are the biggest issue with DIY keyboards.

The plastic laminate of my ergodoxen was stiff, sturdy, and heavy. The exposed bolts were a little industrial. Very much had a DIY look.

My Lily58 started out with the PCB "case" which is horrible. Way too flexible, and switches falling out as soon as you attempted to transport it. (Easy transport was my main motivation for the smaller keyboard.)

Eventually, I was able to convince someone on Etsy to print me a 3d case for it. It is ok. Much better than the PCBs. However, switches still have a tendency to pop out when moving the keyboard.

The case on the Bayleaf makes me wonder if other keyboards could do a better job with case offerings.

I've always gone with wired keyboards because dealing with batteries seems annoying.

Looking at this keyboard makes me realize that I've optimized for functionality but this beauty is optimized for form.

>do a better job with case offerings

for hobby businesses like most of these weird little keyboards, adding $200 to the parts cost is a real stretch, considering their already niche appeal and limited capital for investment

Folks are already paying $200+ for these keyboards. Some pay $50+ for a single keycap.

3D printed cases do vary in quality quite a bit, something made with a cheap consumer FDM printer won't be nearly as nice as a resin SLA or nylon MJF/SLS case printed on an industrial-grade machine and professionally finished. The latter processes are pretty accessible these days from companies like JLCPCB or PCBWay.

You can even get them to 3D print metal parts with an SLM process, although that's on the pricier side.

The unsung hero here is probably the nice!nano. Such a good little board. I've made my own split keyboard around them and it just makes so many things I thought I'd have to think about Go Away.

The nice!nano gets the job done but it's really expensive for what's ultimately just an nRF52 dev board in the ubiquitous Pro Micro form factor. They're $25 a pop and you need two for a split board, while you can get generic nRF52 Pro Micros on AliExpress for about $3.50 each.

It's the same story with RP2040 Pro Micros for wired QMK builds, there's a huge "keyboard tax" if you get the ones marketed for that purpose.

I've wanted this for years. I've tried so many "ergonomic" mechanical keyboards, but the huge key travel (even if very soft switches), tends to always give me finger/wrist issues over a few weeks.

>> Can I buy this keyboard? > Negative, this singular prototype is not for sale.

:sobbing:

I hope someone builds / sells this! Instant buy for me, if so.

But then, the next question down:

> Are you planning to sell this keyboard at scale?

> Dependent on the reception, likely yes. But it wont be exactly this design. A second iteration is in the works with improved sound profile and ergonomics. Stay tuned.

To reduce mouse hand travel I got a roller mouse pro slim about 6 months ago. Not great for fine motor tasks but exceptional for other general uses. Alleviated a lot of pain in my hands and fingers.

I use this with a small slim keychron keyboard and with a kinesis advantage 360.

The roller seems to be getting a bit sticky after 6 months of heavy use and transporting it between work and home. Nonetheless, would get another in a heartbeat.

Perhaps worth a look?

Roller mice are great. I also set up my keyboard such that I can hold down a key and use WASD to move my mouse, with J being left click and K being right. That's been a game changer for me, too.

I keep my Logitech MX close cause the infinite scroll is just too damn good. But the MX kills my hands when using for prolonged periods.

I had all those issues too, until I remembered my high school typing class where the teacher would slap our wrists with a ruler if they were resting. Now I lift my wrists like I was taught, and use non-split keyboards with better results than I used to get with splits.

There is always Glove80, choc switches have very little travel.

Eh, Choc switches have less travel than MX switches but I wouldn't say they have very little travel. Chocs main selling point is the form factor which allows the keyboard chassis to be much thinner. MX switches usually have 4mm of travel, Choc switches have 3mm, while the PG1316S switches used in OPs keyboard only have 1.8mm. I think Apples current switches are even shallower at ~1mm.

Yeah. The travel on the Apple Magic Keyboard, which I can't seem to pry myself away from, is around 1.15mm.

This is so pretty. I’ve been playing with a used Ergodox and this is so close to what I feel like I’d build if I made my own from scratch. The main difference is that each half is a 6x5 grid instead of 7x5, and me being fine with a wired keyboard.

Nice work, very impressive! What software did you use to create the design? Any recommendations for CAD and PCB design newbies?

Ever since I saw this video[1] by Dave2D I have felt the need to move away from my regular mechanical keyboards to Ortholinear keyboards. Non split keyboards seemed too much of a hassle and Bayleaf looks like something I can totally switch to. If only someone built a DIY kit that I could buy off shelves.

1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVfB_0s470I

Fantastic write up and beautiful design decisions. Really remarkable work! As another market data point, I would definitely pay a premium price if you were to go to market with it.

Why do no split keyboards have symbols on the keycaps? What happens when you forget where a key is that you don't use often, do you just have to press keys until you find it again?

Partly because they're a niche product and making legended keycaps is more expensive, and partially because ergo layouts are so varied that it's hard to accommodate everyone. Especially if the keycap profile has different shapes for each row so they're not entirely interchangeable.

There are a few low-profile legended keycap sets around but they typically only cover the "top" layer, which is the easiest to remember anyway. If you want legends which show every function of every key you'd have to get them custom laser etched to match your personal keymap.

You can buy ZSA split keyboards with labels on the keycaps. Its great while you are still learning to type on these rather exotic keyboards. As you get more proficient, you start to rely more and more on the "central" keys (using layers toggles to put, say arrow keys on the home row). Muscle-memory is often more than enough.

That said, I have kept the number row labelled. These keys are not obscured by your hands and they can give you the necessary frame of reference. The ideal trade-off for me.

When I forget where I've stashed a specific symbol or similar I just check the Via QMK configuration tool, similar to when you're trying to learn the shortcut keys for a piece of software. Eventually it's muscle-memory, but it's nice to have a reference guide whilst you're building it.

When I learned Dvorak I found a tiny picture of the layout and stuffed it into a corner of my desktop. I didn’t usually have to look but sometimes.

I still forget where the symbols are regularly, which ends up evening out my typing speed versus sticking with qwerty.

Realistically you've got about 50 or so keys and you are using all of them all the time, so you're not really forgetting where anything is. Many also customize where symbols, media keys, etc., are - so they are positioned where it makes most sense to you. Outside of maybe a 2 week learning period I haven't needed to look up where a key is at all

The other thing is that many keys will have multiple functions - so what do you print on them? e.g. my j key also doubles as # and the down key. Some are maybe even more frequently used key combinations, e.g. I have a ``` and a => key

I have the ultimate hackers keyboard (silly name, I know)

It's a really good split keyboard with symbols printed (optional).

https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/

Their UKH 80 looks incredible.

Software is as critical as hardware: The UHK supports holding a key down to select a different keymap layer, then using the other hand to tap a key in that layer. While few people learn many-key chording, "one finger each hand" is every bit as easy as ordinary typing, with practice. This supports an n^2 expansion in effective keyboard reach. I'm surprised this isn't the norm for selecting Chinese/Japanese characters.

The question is: How well? I'm not entirely happy with my QMK firmware implementation. Tap-hold is the antithesis of n-key rollover; one needs to learn to properly nest key-down, key-up events. It's easy to switch from a clarinet (cleanly cover holes) to a saxophone (slap pads), but hard switching back. And we've all learned to type like we're on a saxophone, relying on n-key rollover to cover many sins.

I now use QMK firmware with Hasu controllers for multiple Leopold FC660C keyboards with Topre Silent 45g "rubber dome" key switches. After trying dozens of mechanical key switches, I found that nothing feels like a Topre switch.

And here's the kicker: The physical form factor doesn't matter so much if your fingers rarely go far from home row, which is what tap/hold facilitates.

> The UHK supports holding a key down to select a different keymap layer, then using the other hand to tap a key in that layer.

How is that different to what QMK/ZMK offer?

I have two UHKs, one at work and one in my home office, and I got my second one with blank keycaps. It's very satisfying.

At this point I'm very happy with UHK's layout and features, but every once in a while I wonder if a low-profile wireless 60% would be cool.

I have a keyboardio Model 100 and it does have symbols on it. Available in mac, windows, and blank iirc.

> What happens when you forget where a key is

I ask myself where I expected it to be, then update the keyboard accordingly. Eventually it doesn’t happen anymore.

Just friction. All it takes is commitment to a particular keymap and few minutes on a laser engraver, but that commitment is not insignificant to builders.

All ergonomic mech keyboards running QMK/ZMK firmware are programmable and most users prefer their custom key/layer mapping over defaults.

when you have so few keys, there are none that you don't use often. When you customize your layout, you have keys that don't really correspond to caps anyway, and you may want to mess around with their values as you get used to it. Typed from my Iris with key caps from an Apple Extended Keyboard II that look nice and don't really tell the whole story for each key they're on.

to support custom key mappings, as many people with fancy ergonomic keyboards use

Honestly, for mine it was because I didn't know what I wanted the keys to do when I was making it. It took a few months to settle on a layout, and even now I might still change it with usage.

You can have symbols if you want.

It's just kind of unnecessary when you can just learn the layout. It's not a big deal, I've used blank keycaps for almost two decades across multiple different layouts.

The part of my brain that never stopped playing Tetris notices that if you had striped the color variations left to right instead of top to bottom you’d have a more uniform color variation. And if you’s put half the dark and half the light on each side then the gradient would look more purposeful.

But you also probably should have printed 2x as many keys and split them up for making two copies.

Looks awesome! This with a small carrying case would be amazing. Maybe the space next to the keys could be a kind of small touch pad used for scrolling?

Nice work! I especially like the satisfying layout of the PCB traces, glad you didn't skimp on that detail.

First time seeing a low profile keyboard on par with a magic keyboard. Actually would fit in a bag :)

Usually "low profile" is used generously in mechanical keyboard land

Very cool. Goes well with your Ghost S1 as well I see in the background. I love mine, though I will say it's getting harder and harder to find decent 2 slot GPUs.

Ah, I was wondering if anyone else noticed the Louqe case in the background. Legendary sffpc case, and I agree the custom keyboard matches very nicely.

First it looks amazing. Honest question, why do all of these keyboards never have an extra column on the right. Standard querty layout has a lot of coding related extra keys to the right than the left. Similar with the ergodox ez and moonlander. Hard to break a years long habit of going up for a curly brace or bracket then down.

It really tends to be because the philosophy of homerow / economy of movement is quite high on the split / ergo keyboard communities, combined with the ease of creating temporary layers (imagine you had multiple programmable shift buttons).

The link when you mention Mikefive's post only goes to the subreddit, not a specific post. Searching for "Mikefive" on reddit yielded a lot of results. I'd love to see the specific post you were referring to.

Beautiful keyboard.

Sent from my Allium58 Low Profile :D

It's this one https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/1cfg3vr/...

Beautiful build, and very close to my dream keyboard. Excited to see the v2 of this.

Great writeup as well - thanks for sharing!

This looks incredible, I was hoping when I clicked that it would be ortholinear, pleasantly surprised it is! Probably about four years ago I bought a ZSA Moonlander, and started learning Vim keybindings right at the same time. My words per minute dropped to 20 or something before climbing back and passing what it was before. I couldn't ever go back.

It's a very impressive accomplishment. Nice job and you should be proud.

My main reaction when seeing this was "this is not for me." In terms of the layout, no labels, etc. I'm actually surprised to see how many people seemingly have no problem with this.

I have been working on a very similar build.

One feature I decided was a requirement is holding me up. I really want pogo pins on the sides of the keyboards, so that they magnetically attach and the left will charge the right.

How do you charge the left and the right since they require separate cables?

That doesn't seem to hard to do. They sell the connectors on amazon.

https://www.amazon.com/Magnetic-Connector-Positions-Pogopin-...

Each battery should probably have their own charging circuit anyway. So the pogo pins should be 5V and ground coming directly from the USB 5V line.

Beautiful keyboard. Great write-up.

I would buy one at a premium price point, if you’re interested in a market data point.

Wow, it looks amazing!

I needed an enclosure for a project recently and went with modifying a stock ABS enclosure - but I'd love to use machined aluminium! You mentioned you're in the EU - did PCBway deliver from the US, or from closer to home? Also, how much did the enclosure cost please?

I love this. Well done. I've looked in the past for an ultra portable full sized keyboard (with a nice aesthetic) that I could throw in my pocket. I wonder if I could actually do any real work (not coding, of course) at a coffee shop with my iPhone in a stand and with a keyboard like that.

Looking forward to stagger/more thumbs in the next one! magnet batteries also sound very cool. and if they could sandwich eachother protectively for packing/traveling wow

I have one word: Woow!

Great work! Maybe in the next iteration try adding a lite haptic tracking device(or similar) on the inner sides.

Aside: What's that mouse pictured in the second pic?

Would like to know that as well. At least GPT doesn't recognize it. Maybe it's a custom build, too?

Wouldn’t even know it’s not a professional product. Great write up too

sgraz beat me to it! I’m working on an almost the same project (thin, slick, aluminium, ortholinear). Guess I’ll have someone to look up to. (:

My niche idea: Being a CAD user with one hand on the mouse and the other on a one-handed keyboard would be a charm.

Do the two sides communicate with each other or do they act as independent devices?

With the ZMK firmware they're using the sides usually communicate with each other. You have a "primary" side which does most of the firmware heavy lifting, including the Bluetooth connection to the PC, and a "peripheral" side which just sends raw key codes to the primary.

That arrangement means the peripheral side gets significantly better battery life than the primary, so ZMK also has an optional "dongle" mode where you connect a third ZMK device directly to the PC over USB, which acts as the primary, and then both sides of the keyboard act as peripherals so they both sip power.

As a bonus the dongle mode also means the PC sees it as a wired keyboard so it works in the BIOS, etc.

Quite neat result and presentation! Can you estimate what did your research and final product cost turn out to be?

Not my kind of keyboard style but damn this looks nice

This looks really good. As a happy ergodox-ez user of a few years, I would buy one of these in a heartbeat.

It's gorgeous. Impressive execution - looks like a polished product from Apple.

sensational. well done!

one feature I would really like to see is multi-device connectivity/switching like the Logitech MX Keys. Outside of that, this keyboard is my grail board. Looking forward to keeping up with this project!

I think ZMK (available on the Nice!Nano) does exactly that already?

This is gorgeous! well done.

Curious about the model of the monitor arm seen in the background?

Looks beautiful. Congrats. A jedi builds their own lightsaber...

(Typed on a Lily58)

Could you share the name of the battery you used?

wow! the design is so simple. if you were selling this, I would be throwing my money at you right now!!

Looks amazing

Beautiful work, loved reading about your process.

What parametric CAD tool did you use? Thanks!

I like your design choices.

Putting the micro-controllers at the far ends means the rest of the board can be lower, meaning less need for palm supports. Also I like you NOT having OLED screens - they're toys at best and one more thing to break at worse.

As for Ortho VS Staggered, ortho has the great advantage of things like WASD just being usable out of the box, and also flexibility with things like numpad layers. I've printed paper cut outs of things like the ferris sweep to see if pinky stagger would be comfortable for me, and the answer was negative. Probably very hand dependent.

Curious why aluminium and not steel? Steel is a heavier, and also has less of that pingy noise, though I have no idea about machining so perhaps it's a no go.

Really well done! Looks great

Looks really nice. I do have my doubts about the ergonomics of it though. Once you've had a taste of concavity and column-staggering nothing else feels the same.

That's how I feel about keyboard tilts away from a full pronation/flat and towards a neutral position. Once I switched to having a rotated split keyboard, my forearms and wrists felt incredible, and I hadn't even considered them uncomfortable before.

I wonder if they could fit a simple flip-out stand for some tilt without too many compromises

> Looks like something I would pay $150 for

That's useful market information, but note that in the "How much did it cost?" section he points out that the BOM is ~$400 not including labor, tools, or shipping. Going from extremely low-volume to moderately low-volume might reduce material cost slightly, but I'd still expect him to have to charge at least $400 just to break even.

More generally, I've never seen a low-volume split wireless keyboard for less than $200 and the closest in design I can think of would be https://lowprokb.ca/products/corne-ish-zen which had a base price of $320 before pricing in keyswitches or keycaps.

It's totally reasonable that this is your price point and everyone is different -- some people would never pay more than a hundred bucks for a keyboard, whereas I have a couple keyboards that are more expensive than the computers they're connected to.

I am also a keyboard snob, and have far more expensive keyboards. Mass manufacturing drastically lowers costs, and a price point goal is super useful for group buys, which I have run before. It is useful data.

I'm also talking about PCB + case only. The case is the biggest cost driver here, a simple FRT plate case would make my kit price reasonable with a healthy margin

Damn that's pretty.

Unlike the author, I consider wireless to be a dealbreaker. Technology barely works, no way I am letting radio quality stand between me and the computer. Same reason I require a wired microphone.

Also add the atrocious security record of HID, and I assume wireless typing is easily intercepted.

Looks really good

That's really not ergonomic.

Why do you think that? Split keyboards are considerably more ergonomic than regular keyboards.

"pain grid", Freudian slip? lol

I feel both ways, I use an apple wireless keyboard (flat) and a Durgod Hades 68 (curved mech). I don't like the felt keycaps/no letters on this one but yeah the build is amazing especially saying they're a beginner damn.

edit: I'll note I prefer the 65-68% keyboards where it has the dedicated arrow keys

I always wanted Apple to make a split keyboard.

Then I realized I could just buy two Magic Keyboards and use them at the same time -- typing on the left half of the left one, and the right half of the right one.

After all, the proper ergonomic position is for your forearms to be parallel (not angled inward), which means the keyboard halves you're using should be approximately shoulder-width apart, so there's tons of room to use both without them colliding.

Once I figured it out, I felt like an idiot for not figuring it out a decade earlier. I'm never going back.

I knew I shouldn't have opened HN this morning. I just scraped 3 hours off my morning trying to get this to work but my typing accuracy took an absolute nosedive.

I don't know the price of a magic keyboard off the top of my head but I'm inclined to think that you could get a really good premium split keyboard for the price of buying 2 magic keyboards.

It's the opposite.

Magic keyboards are $100 new. Or $30-40 on eBay used.

Split keyboards are more. They're niche so they're more expensive.

Can you use modifier keys spanning the two keyboards? E.g. shift on the left, and a letter on the right to type a capital?

Yup. Though I think I may have had to install (free) Karabiner to enable that:

https://karabiner-elements.pqrs.org/

So I'll e.g. page down by holding Fn on the left keyboard and down arrow on the right.