```来谈谈欧盟主权(2025年)```
Let's talk about EU Sovereignty (2025)

原始链接: https://musings.martyn.berlin/lets-talk-about-eu-sovereignty

“主权云”这一行业术语存在问题,它指的是将欧盟公民的数据保留在欧盟境内。然而,在使用美国大型云服务商(AWS、Google、Azure)的情况下,实现真正的主权几乎是不可能的。 即便使用欧盟境内的数据中心,这些提供商仍依赖于位于美国的全球服务、身份验证系统和域名系统(DNS)基础设施。此外,这些公司提供的所谓“主权”云服务,往往无法解决美国法律与欧盟《通用数据保护条例》(GDPR)之间的根本矛盾——美国法律允许政府下达“禁言令”并强制扣押数据,而GDPR则要求必须通知用户。《数据隐私框架》等法律框架在面对这些矛盾时仍未经考验,且公司架构(子公司)也难以抵御美国政府的强制力。 对于需要真正数据主权的组织,作者认为唯一可行的解决方案是完全弃用美国云服务商。虽然 Scaleway 或 Hetzner 等欧盟本土替代方案可能需要更多的架构工作和基础设施管理,但它们提供了实现真正独立的途径。依赖美国巨头的托管服务来解决这些复杂的法律和司法管辖权问题,充其量只是一个临时且不稳定的折中方案。

近期 Hacker News 关于“欧盟主权”的讨论显示,人们对建立真正具备竞争力的欧洲“云”服务的可能性深感怀疑。批评者认为,像 Hetzner 和 Scaleway 这样的现有服务商缺乏 AWS 那样的广度,而要建立一个可行的同类产品,则需要高昂的投资与创新。虽然有些人认为“云”不过是 VPS 服务的营销包装,但另一些人则指出,美国服务商之所以能占据主导地位,是因为它们提供了欧洲替代方案难以复制的复杂集成生态系统。 这场辩论突显了两种相互冲突的观点: 1. **主权需求论:** 支持者强调依赖受美国域外管辖的美国服务商存在地缘政治风险,认为实现独立需要政府补贴或战略性国家投资。 2. **竞争力现实论:** 怀疑者认为这些努力“落后于时代”,并指出欧洲科技巨头(如 Mistral 或 Dailymotion)在历史上一直难以达到美国企业的成功规模。 归根结底,参与者争论的焦点在于,主权究竟是指法律管辖权(保护数据免受美国影响),还是指技术能力。许多人对欧洲能否弥补这一差距仍持怀疑态度,并指出即使在欧盟内部,对政府监控的担忧依然存在,这使得推动“主权”基础设施建设变得更加复杂。
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原文

First and foremost, I really dislike the term because it’s laden with all sorts of militaristic and anti-free movement and all sorts of other problematic baggage, but it’s the term the industry is using, so we go with it I guess until the current push is over and we can quietly suggest a different term like happened with git branch names and replication terms. It's also annoying to spell correctly.

So what is it and why does it matter? Well, at the highest level, it means that data is kept within the EU for EU citizens. It’s more than that of course but that’s the premise that is underlying the situation.

We’re already done! eu-west-1.

So in that case, AWS’ eu-west-1 zone, based in Ireland fits the bill, right, and we can just deploy there and be sovereign? Well, turns out, no, that’s the “more than that” part. First of all, AWS (as with all the other cloud providers) has zone-based, region-based and importantly global services. Oh dear, so if you use any of the global services, now your data is replicated out of eu-west-1 and into us-tirefire-1 (officially known as us-east-1) and the other AWS regions.

So, just don’t use global services and good right? Well, theoretically, but see the legals section below. Also, if you’re doing much with AWS, you’re gonna use them, s3 for instance is a global service, which is a dealbreaker for most people. Bigger than that, all of the auth in AWS goes through us-east-1, yup, your logins, your “can this service talk to that service” rules. Also DNS, which no less than 13 AWS services depend upon to spin up, that’s not in your region, it’s in, you guessed it us-east-1.

Argh, okay, I guess we use this new AWS European Sovereign Cloud region?

Well… as of 2025-10-21 that’s still in “Coming Soon” status, it’s being delivered by really putting some people through the wringer in Berlin, with hugely optimistic deadlines, and as those who have waited for AWS regions to come online, chances are it will launch with a limited subset of services. Also, this is still legally gray as I’ll go into below.

What about this t-systems google sovereign cloud, same problems there? Google are a bit further on with this region but still are struggling to get it up to full parity from their europe-west3 (Frankfurt, most commonly used in the EU) or europe-west1 (Belgium, cheaper) regions. It also tries and fails to sidestep the legal issues here.

Microsoft Azure? Even more behind as I understand it (but I don’t have contact with them, as I avoid working with azure in general).

Here’s the meat of it. Simply put, an American company must comply with US law, seems reasonable, until it’s incompatible with EU law, and that’s the big issue here. Here’s the biggest example to me:

  • Under US law, if a judge decrees it (or in some cases, government or intelligence agencies), any activity related to a potential crime can be accompanied by a “gagging order” – compelling, legally, people involved not to speak of it. The theory behind this is if someone has evidence that could lead to an arrest, they don’t want to tip off the perpetrator to the investigation so they can flee. This activity, crucially, could be seizure of (copies of) data.

  • Under EU law if a citizen’s data is accessed by a third party, the provider must notify them. No exceptions.

This is the big stumbling block that has had multiple attempts to be solved, the Safe Harbour principles (in the Schrems I case CJEU found this invalid), the EU-US Privacy Shield (In the Schrems II case CJEU found this invalid) and the current Data Privacy Framework (which makes no mention of gagging orders that I could find for instance, so whilst it may work as it says the US companies must comply with EU law, no case has yet tested this where the US and EU laws are in conflict).

How does the AWS/Google/MS sovereign cloud stuff deal with this? It doesn’t. The closest is Google’s attempt, which puts the management of the cloud resources under T-Systems (a German company not a subsidiary, which is a great start), but is still using Google’s software stack and given that it’s a cloud provider, it would need security updates. What is to stop a Judge who doesn’t know what cloud even means saying “Yes, we need to compel google to put in a backdoor in their next security update and enforce a gagging order to prevent it being heard of.” when requested to do so by some government agency? AWS are just “Oh you pay AWS Europe, that’s a separate (subsidiary) company that has to comply with EU law”. Yeah, that’s not a good enough guarantee for me, as AWS Europe is entirely dependant on AWS for their software, job security, and well, their existence. Same for the Microsoft one. I’m willing to bet that all the other US cloud companies (Oracle, DigitalOcean, Salesforce cloud?!) are somewhere on the spectrum between Google’s approach or AWS’ approach or are just not doing “sovereign” at all.

So how can companies use “the cloud” and not American companies? Simple, don’t use American cloud providers.

Yes, the EU “cloud providers” are lagging behind but they’re catching up. Scaleway, Herzner, and others are there, and you should check them out if you’re starting a business in the EU. You can even look at VPS providers and see what you can make with their offerings. Running VMs in multiple EU providers is going to be a challenge depending on your size of company, but it could make you pretty bulletproof.

If you’re considering a migration, then you’re really going to need to sit down and chew on your architecture, there’s no easy way around it, but please, for peoples’ sanity, don’t ask for a detailed plan and then say “Oh, we decided it’s not worth it and we’ll pay fines if we get them”.

Lastly if you’re looking at a cloud provider's Kubernetes offerings and don’t feel they’re great (frankly all “managed” kubernetes’ are semi-managed at best in my opinion), consider using siderolabs’ Omni to manage your own fleet of k8s nodes, it’s really very good.

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