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原始链接: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41131181

用户表示热衷于过渡到小型帆船生活方式,以促进创造性工作和集中注意力,理由是自我封闭和减少对他人的影响。 他们计划住在一艘 43 英尺长的帆船上,并在陆地访问期间录制工作室的录音。 由于对隐私和受众规模的潜在负面影响,他们希望避免在外部托管其内容,而是选择自行托管。 作者批评用户关于出版及其对工作质量的潜在影响的陈述中的绝对思维和缺乏细微差别。 该用户提到尝试太阳能烹饪和 100Rabbits(一个专注于 DIY 技术项目的平台)。 作者不同意用户对技术的看法,认为去中心化、自我维持的方法依赖于预先存在的工业基础设施,无法独立解决核扩散和气候变化等紧迫问题。 此外,作者还对用户对边缘群体面临的技术相关挑战不予理睬表示质疑,并质疑 100Rabbit 的既定目标在实际中是否可行。 最后,作者批评了用户船居计划中的精英主义,并强调了点击诱饵广告和在线赌博等技术趋势的破坏性后果,表明任何自给自足或公共生活的尝试都可能出现类似的问题。

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原文


Site: "This website has no tracking or analytics."

Privacy Badger blocked tracking from:

    googleads.g.doubleclick.net
    static.doubleclick.net
    play.google.com
    www.google.com
    www.youtube.com
Because
    
If you use anything from Google, you will be tracked.


It's an unfortunate use of Youtube embeds. Aside from letting people uncharitably dunk on them, the Youtube here isn't even doing anything. The YT video in question is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1Y8PwD5XDs , which is 57s long, has 2 worthless comments, no description/metadata/playlist/closed-captions/categories, and a yt-dlp takes literally 5s for me to download the 1.5MB MP4. (Which I think may actually be about the size of the full weight of the YT embed container based on the last post I saw here whining about YT embeds...?)

This is a perfect candidate to host yourself and just slap it in some



I've often wondered why Discord is the only major platform client that provides an option to play gifs only on mouseover. It's incredibly effective at solving for the problem you describe.



One solution is to add headers that forbid all includes (and therefore all tracking):
   Content-Security-Policy: 
     default-src 'self';
     frame-src 'self';
     script-src 'self' 'unsafe-inline' 'unsafe-eval';
     style-src  'self' 'unsafe-inline';
     img-src 'self' data:


I love their work. I’ve also been working on some video to teach people how to publish their own book (the first of which I’ll make available free when it’s ready).

Anyway, I’d like to NOT embed YouTube. Maybe I will anyway, but I wonder if anyone has alternatives, especially if they are scrappy, tiny alternatives like those that I imagine 100r might produce.

I’m considering MP4 or WebM in HTML and wilder ideas like an audio file and a few images that are started at the same time with JS.



Turn your videos into HLS playlists (.m3u8) or mp4 and host the individual video files behind Cloudflare. Serve them on the frontend using JW Player or some other JS video player and from the backend using a $5 DigitalOcean droplet that serves the files from block storage.

You’ll have to learn some ffmpeg incantations but the bandwidth will be free and your total costs will be the tiny VM and block storage. Might even be able to point Cloudflare at a public bucket and skip the VM.

If you need to store and serve several terabytes of content, a dedicated server instead of block storage will be your best bet (again with Cloudflare), you’ll just need to figure out offsite backup and restoration.



> Serve them on the frontend using JW Player or some other JS video player

Just make sure that player supports right click->Save I'd much rather download and view a video in VLC than somebodies janky JS player



Huh, looks like it does unless you use Cloudflare Stream. Thankfully this is a throwaway account :-)

I think by keeping the HLS segments at a few megabytes each and not using a file extension in the URL, I've slipped through the cracks.

(My religion forbids me from recognizing any terms of service that haven't been given the three blessings of the matriarch)



I think it's more likely you just don't generate enough traffic for them to care to stop you. I think the main issue is that their business model of not charging for bandwidth doesn't work well for video. As long as you aren't using a ton of bandwidth, they won't care you are doing some video.



There hasn’t been a matriarch since the last one died in 1842. The two last surviving religious orders with voting rights have been in a deadlock ever since because they can’t agree on what color sesame seed belongs in “Everything but the Bagel” seasoning.

Saint Trader Joes tried to unite them by using both light and dark sesame years ago, but there’s just too much bad blood for them to work together. We are still waiting for the chosen one that will bring balance to the bagel.



Ahh, the utter tragedy of the Sesamoschism of 1842. The sad thing is that the deadlock between the Correctly Righteous Matriarchaleanbageloptomistrists and the Righteously Correct Matriarchaleanbageloptomistrists all comes down to one member’s error in mixing toasted light sesame seeds with raw dark sesame seeds, and neither side being able to agree which member needed to suffer the rites of immaculate defenestration.

May the bagel balanced be.



Yes, then in 1863 we had a brief window of hope as Frau Blücher, a charismatic blind preacher, wrote her famous “Two Theses” on a bagel bag: “1. I cannot taste the difference; 2. It all looks the same in your stomach.” This ecumenical message sadly did not endure and she too was thrown out of a first floor window.



The simplest thing would be to simply link to a Youtube video, perhaps with a small warning that it will take them to Youtube which uses trackers. You could even make the link an image that is the thumbnail of the video.

Not the prettiest or purest solution, but very simple.



I've seen youtube embeds be overlaid and say things like "this embed carries tracking, click here to load inline at your own peril or here to watch on original site" or something to that effect.

Can't recall where though.



Medium did (does?) this when you have DNT enabled. Several GDPR-compliant sites do the same, though many use their embeds as a means to track people into clicking the "accept all tracking" button.



Right but if you have your own ip address and fiber connection that should be enough for narrow-casting.

I'm surprised to see my inexpressible urges documented by others. I'm with these people 100% right down to why a sailboat.

I tried to do this with an apartment building. The building is too large to focus on a the detail I need. A 43' sailboat is actually a great size to prototype on.

I have a signed P&S and hope to be hard core boat living sometime in September. The idea will be the studio time I get while on land will be much sweeter if I spend a lot of time on a boat.

The boat is self-contained so my aspirations won't effect people paying rent.

The building has everything I need to host my own streaming. I don't know that I will ever publish content, but if I do it will be entirely self-hosted. If the audience is so vast that brings everything to a halt, things will start functioning again once the hordes get bored.

Think of all the wasted brain power content-creators go through to keep YouTube at bay.

I believe content should be the residue of the work. I think once publishing is the funding source it may distort the work.



You can just turn your video file into a bunch of HSL or MPEG Dash segments and store then as static file with a playlist/manifest file next to them, and tada! you now have video streaming in your static hosting site.



I suppose any reasonable browser can play off a HTTP stream. I not so sure it would be able to navigate in the stream easily (like clicking at a particular time on the progress bar), because the bitrate is highly variable.

What else am I missing?



The client can do that 100% client side, you can serve pure static files with a JS player that handles the streaming. All you have to do is chunk the video into small 2-5 second chunks at a variety of nitrates and list them all in an .m3u8 playlist file if the right format.

I know because I explored this for a hobby project of a movie I liked. See here: http://lelandbatey.com/projects/REDLINE-intro/

Use your network inspector to observe your browser requesting the individual chunks over time. Note that my server is just an Apache2 file server.



> any reasonable browser can play off a HTTP stream

most video players also support http and there is no problem with just putting files up.

imho all the streaming tech, drm, hls, adaptive bitrate selection and whatnot, are just commercial fads to increase margin



The video is 57 seconds long. Should be fine ~ kinda.

My host doesn't support video. If I point

I cant seem to find answers or bugs, all I find "make sure your server supports partial content" which really isn't required to make it work.



> Anyway, I’d like to NOT embed YouTube. Maybe I will anyway, but I wonder if anyone has alternatives, especially if they are scrappy, tiny alternatives like those that I imagine 100r might produce.

I use lite-youtube on my site for this reason. Instead of embedding the YT player directly, it shows a thumbnail that pulls in the embed when you click to watch the video.

That way visitors aren't tracked unless they actively click the thumbnail to watch the embedded player. Iirc it also works as just a link so visitors have the option to cmd+click or right-click-copy to avoid the embed.



I find it hilarious how despite endless bad press the giant data pump that is bittorrent just keeps on grinding without anyone behind the wheel, no updates, no bug fixes, and no interruption. People can scream, ball their fists and stomp their foot on the ground but daddy's money cant shut it down.

We should all feel very embarresed such a thing is possible.

You can apparently write software and/or create protocols that measure their success in moaning about revenue loss.



maybe because bittorrent is genuinely useful and far from abandoned as most shops that regularly distribute large blobs use it.

the political kerfuffle because drm/dmca really has nothing to do with it but i can't shake the feeling that you are involved at this level. god bless



But people will tell you that software cannot be expected to work reliably and cannot function without a billion dollar corporation pushing constant updates.

Even the ‘Bible’ app requires constant updates, I thought the final version was released quite some time ago



> If you use anything from Google, you will be tracked

Google's become a marketing-profiling engine, wrapped in ad-serving infrastructure, wrapped in the decaying remnants of a search engine.-



It’s been like that since August 2000 when they launched their premium sponsorship program, which was replaced by AdWords later that year.

I’m not sure you can fully blame Google for what the web became though. Part of the reason search engines are close to useless here 24 years later is because most of the content people produce go to SoMe sites. Sites like Hacker News, sites like Medium and so on and because of how everything became a popularity matrix people are posting soooo much useless stuff online. Where it used to be you actually had to have something to say to bother putting it online, because it took an effort, we now live in a world where 90% or the talk people do is while they’re on the shitter. Those 90% is a number I pulled out my ass, but it would be hilarious to see an actual number on just how much internet “content” gets created by people on a toilet.

It is what it is though. To make a functional search engine today which was on par with Google in 2000, you’d probably need access to browser bookmarks of the people you’ve ranked as having interesting taste in what they bookmark. Which probably isn’t really possible without breaking a lot of laws, if at all.



> Where it used to be you actually had to have something to say to bother putting it online, because it took an effort

That didn't last very long. Even before geocities there was a huge amount of random/pointless stuff online. It was okay though because those people weren't looking to make money. They didn't feel the need to misrepresent or SEO the hell out of their personal sites to drive traffic.

Greed killed the internet. Once people started putting up websites with the intent to line their own pockets instead of doing it just to share something fun or cool or personal or helpful it was doomed. Corporations quickly got involved and everything else got crowded out, bought out, or replaced by ad-filled trash.



One could probably put a date on the moment when the decreasing friction of publishing to the web intersected with the increasing potential for monetization. Suddenly all of these new people are writing blogs for AdSense revenue instead of good vibes and the atmosphere has all the vibrancy and vitality of a strip mall.



Makes sense. Tangentially, people always mention of spending time on the toilet, but I never could relate as its a max 2-3 minute activity for me, usually less. Only have enough time to read some Reddit posts. Maybe, as I get older, this will change.

Edit: I am vegetarian, probably has something to do with it.



Low carb tortillas are absolutely packed with fiber (like 25-30 grams per burrito).

A little chewy, but you get used to it. And you definitely aren't short of fiber if you also have a salad that day



Gotta give the hemorrhoid doctors some work. Ideally you should finish your business rather fast, but I think a lot of people simply find a nice break on the toilet. Obviously food has an impact but if any type of *vore has long shits it’s probably because they aren’t getting enough fibre, another boon for the hemorrhoid doctors!

The reason I know a shit should take 30 seconds is because there is this Danish doctor who has spent like 30 years studying how we shit, and her name is Gert which is typically a male name. Anyway some years back she was on TV telling the nation how to shit, and it sort of went viral and now everyone above a certain age basically knows who Gert “who knows how to shit” is.



The embed has to be changed to YouTube-nocookie (which is what happens when you enable privacy enhance mode when sharing embeds). But that might not entirely comply with GDPR, as Google still does attempt other measures of tracking.

So they should either introduce a cookie banner, find an alternative host that more strictly adheres to privacy concerns, or just host the video themselves in a video element.



also you could just embed a self-hosted image that links to youtube. presumably if somebody clicks on the image with the youtube logo on it they know they're going to youtube

i mean peertube is a great alternative, and nowadays browsers are pretty okay at just playing bare mp4 files if you re-encode them with ffmpeg -movflags faststart -c copy, but if for whatever reason you choose to use youtube instead there are some harm-reduction measures you can take



> also you could just embed a self-hosted image that links to youtube.

I’ve done this in the past by literally grabbing a screenshot of the video thumbnail (and the play button) and adding a link to that image.

Sure, it won’t play in the same page and won’t be up to date with thumbnail or other presentation changes but I didn’t care - it was a small image that also didn’t include any executable code or privacy risks.



any browser works as a peertube client; do you mean "peertube installations" and "wordpress installations", or are you talking about the software used to view videos?



It makes me sad that this is the top comment for this link to Hundred Rabbits.

I feel it’s such a “I am very smart gotcha” comment that isn’t helpful in any way.

It distracts from the actual topic.



Although I feel this is yet another disingenuous question, mostly referencing my own reference, this post is about the people behind Hundred Rabbits, what they make and how they live.

This is noteworthy because it’s 180 degrees opposite from how most HN people live and what they do.

I feel we should change society somewhat



One could also be a bit more compassionate and just realize that people make mistakes or just don't have every line on their website memorized if they decide one day to just share a YouTube video.

I doubt they are actively trying to trick people into letting down their "adblocker" guard so they can retarget them with advertising...



Compassion has nothing to do with taking something seriously.

I have compassion for their cause. Read 2 articles and was intrigued.

At the same time, spotting such an obvious mistake does make me wonder if their articles have glaring mistakes in them as well.



"Perfect is the enemy of good" really applies here.

Someone is aware of the issue of online tracking and tries their best to get rid of all of these things (web fonts, analytics,...) and even states their intent "No tracking". One day they make a small mistake and don't realize that sharing a YouTube link on their website drops a cookie and immediatelly all the good they are trying to do is forgotten.

I hope you never make mistakes.



This absolutely does not relate at all to me. I don't make extraordinary claims so I am not bound to provide extraordinary evidence. So your "I hope you never make mistakes" is irrelevant or, even worse, arguing in bad faith.

You can spin it any way you like. Claims should be backed and checked, else credibility flies out the window. I don't get how that's not glaringly obvious.



You pointing out a minor mistake that has zero implications doesn’t provide any value. It may feel good to you pointing out mistakes others made, but especially in this case it doesn’t matter. It’s not important.

And you seem to read way too much into this mistake, promptly distrusting all the content they ever made or wrote.

Next time you make a mistake, I hope people around you will treat you the same way you treat other people, let’s find out if you like that.



> It may feel good to you pointing out mistakes others made, but especially in this case it doesn’t matter.

It does matter, it is important. Making such a mistake calls into question if they don't have other, more serious, mistakes in their actual articles.

> Next time you make a mistake, I hope people around you will treat you the same way you treat other people, let’s find out if you like that.

I don't make extraordinary claims so I am not bound to provide any extraordinary evidence. They do make an extraordinary claim.



I feel that engaging here is probably a mistake, but screw it.

> I don't make extraordinary claims

That seems like a pretty extraordinary claim to me. That you've made. Twice.



> It does matter, it is important. Making such a mistake calls into question if they don't have other, more serious, mistakes in their actual articles.

This shows such black-and-white thinking, thinking in absolutes that doesn't take in account, the context and circumstances.

To me it shows a rigid mind that can't perceive nuance, and think / reason about topics in a particular context.

Minor mistakes are often just that: minor mistakes. If this was an error in a scientific paper or news article, your stance may have had more merit. But that's not the context here at all.

> I don't make extraordinary claims so I am not bound to provide any extraordinary evidence. They do make an extraordinary claim.

A blog claiming not to track you isn't an 'extraordinary claim' by any definition. So that's a mistake on your part, so I can't take anything you say seriously anymore, by your own definition.



The same-origin policy prevents Google tracking in a iFrame from identifying the parent site, so technically "This website has no tracking or analytics." is correct. It does expose you to Google's analytics for the iFrame however, so it's down to how you define "this site", but as the owners of the site don't have access to that tracking information, the statement seems fair.



No, it happens when you load the page. As a test I made a simple web page that just said "This is a test" and included the Google embed and visited it in an incognito window in Chrome and looked at what happened in the inspector. I used an incognito window to ensure that I wasn't starting with any cookies already saved for Google.

Just displaying the page with the embed hits those sites. All in all there were around 20 successful network requests made to load the site. There were another 7 or so requests the Ublock Origin blocked, to play.google.com/log, and then after the page loaded it continues trying those every second or so, although it seems to have slowed down after around 19 but is still ongoing.

It leaves 5 cookies (4 persistent, 1 session) and also looks like it has something in IndexedDB.

Similar with Firefox in a private window except it stores one fewer persistent cookies.

On Safari in a private window it has similar network access, but no cookies.



Offtopic: that website is hosted on a webserver/proxy/LB that appears to have a wildcard certificate for dozens of Google domains. Don't they use SNI and separate certs? This wouldn't fly where I work and the security team is asleep half the time.



The same-origin policy prevents Google tracking in a iFrame from identifying the parent site, so technically "This website has no tracking or analytics." is correct. It does expose you to Google's analytics for the iFrame however, so it's down to how you define "this site"...



> This website has no tracking or analytics

The "\u263Eoe\u2721is\u271E" of online politics if I've ever seen. Nearly meaningless but people place great emotional and identity-based weight on it (even if they've signed away all their data via TOS, as they likely have).

Sidebar—why does hacker news fuck with arbitrary unicode codepoints? Strikes me as deeply user-hostile behavior.



This place would be utterly unbearable with emoji.

The symbols you wanted to include are in the Dingbats and Miscellaneous Symbols blocks, which I expect are all banned because they contain some emoji and this was the cheap way to be rid of those, quick test: "" "", that's a Miscellaneous Symbol and a Dingbat of no emotional valence to speak of and certainly not colourful ones.

As you can see, that's the deal: they're casualties. I wouldn't mind a more discerning filter, but then again, I wouldn't mind a dark mode, and here it is, years later.



Orca singlehandedly got me out of a multi-year musical rut. It's such an interesting and different way of sequencing than the traditional piano roll experience. Like modular synthesis, it can be easier to just use it like a toy and not make anything "finished", but it really can spark the imagination.



Do you use a specific browser? Looks broken-ish to me on most things but firefox, and on firefox the example play button also doesn't work for me.

Super cool in theory though!



"Go slow, and fix things."

Stark contrast from the core attitude of mainstream extractive tech work, and a necessary ethos amid a growing storm of complexity that humanity increasingly depends on

We are trying to go slow and fix things biologically that our natural evolution has left us vulnerable to. Cancer, prion diseases, etc. Yet we have resigned the evolution of information tech over to God as we haphazardly race in a survival of the "financially fittest" sort of contest, rewarding the companies that win at financial selection



In this respect, their page for hacking baguettes by sun&sea is my personal favourite

https://100r.co/site/solar_cooking_experiment.html

100Rabbits is like the coming true of Grothendieck's 1972 permatech lecture given at CERN*

https://github.com/Lapin0t/grothendieck-cern

>"I think that agriculture, stockbreeding, decentralized energy production, medicine of a certain kind, very different from the medicine that prevails today, will come to the fore. It's impossible to say which part purely creative joy will play in these new developments. My hope is, it will be a creative development in which there will be no essential difference between conceptual activities and manual physical activities. When people become masters of their own needs to the point where an appreciable part of their creativity remains free---and this will take a time we can't predict, it may be a generation, it may be ten, no one knows---at that point, anyone, not just a certain scientific elite, will be able to devote a significant part of their time to purely creative, purely speculative, purely playful research"

*which I (or 1 of you?!) will post soon (Thanks Bluestein for showing the best time to post this stuff!)



Hello,

Thank you for the link you've shared. I read it with great interest. While I can conceive that the aforementioned areas might survive in a post-industrial civilization, it is unclear to me how the technology that 100rabbits is researching could do the same. They might use Raspberry Pis or old PCs donated by others, but:

- these are impossible to manufacture without industries, and they are limited in number

- the only means of communication they're using to share their work, the Internet, inherently requires an industrial society to exist

This seems somewhat akin to the naive reaction to the financial crises we experienced a few years ago: "Oh dear, banks and finance can be evil, let's decentralize with Bitcoin."

I believe that we cannot address the problems that technology has brought us (nuclear weapons, global warming) without resorting once again to technology and science. This technology and science must necessarily be funded by the market.



Thank you for your curiosity!

Decentralization is a very long term effort -- Grothendieck said it would take generations, we can't expect immediate results. So while 100R certainly can't survive without relying on industry, it does do research into technologies that may be easier to "deindustrialize". See the "off-grid" and "sustainability" pages on their site.

Finer point: even before the industrial revolution, humans have had access to supercomputers -- their own brains!

It's conceivable that in the not so far future we will be able to grow computers of our own design, from just air and water.

See promising efforts in this direction, it's not an empty dream! https://youtu.be/bEXefdbQDjw

I guess the moral of the day with regards to banks and finance is, don't jump the gun! We will need them until we can grow raspberry pies on a tree!



> a growing storm of complexity that humanity increasingly depends on

Yet real engineers ought to now that “An engineer has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but nothing left to take away”. ... or they never new and yet attempting engineering anyway?

Growing portion of my life is spending time with the complexity of toolchain and work context, while my outcome diminishes in every sense, amount and importance. Pissing into the headwind and getting almost nothing to show for kind of feeling. More and more draws me towards the lifestyle of the rabbits (stopping somewhere in between though).

Btw. financial selection is the way how society work on top of finite resources since ancient times. That's part of the game. ... saying so while I ferociously avoid competition steering into directions that circumnavigate the competing crowd, taking less busy alternative route. When available.



> financial selection is the way how society work on top of finite resources since ancient times. That's part of the game.

Agreed, not saying financial signals are not valuable, just that they bring new challenges that, like most things, lead to problems when obsessed over in lieu of what matters most. You can also develop problems by moving too slowly and fixing things that do not matter.



This has been one of the reasons moving to go has been a godsend.

Don't get me wrong, the project is absolutely insane. There's an api with a gpu layer for raster transformation.

But the build process is still:

    go build [-tag {project name}] .


It keeps bouncing between too real and too absurd.

Absurd: Not enough power on our sailboat to run Ableton and Photoshop.

Real: So we replaced it with open source technology.

Absurd: That technology was based on Electron.

Real: Electron was too bloated.

Absurd: So we ported everything over to the NES.

Real: And now you can run our software anywhere you can emulate an NES



everything about it reinforces the feeling that it's all just retroactive justification for finding a toy they made more fun than expected

ETA: to be clear there's nothing wrong with making a toy and then turning that toy into it's own all-consuming hobby (TTRPGs for example) and one of the best parts of programming is how easy it is to do just that. It's just kind of annoying watching people wax rhapsodic about nonsense instead of copping to "yeah we're having a lot of fun, i feel like a kid again"



fwiw they actually live on a sailboat and have sporadic internet access and limited electricity, so saying it's retroactive justification isn't really true and minimizes the real problems they face.



> Unless you take "made up" to mean "as a result of their choices"

Not the original poster, but that’s my view exactly. If you impose the limitations upon yourself then it’s not really a “problem” for you, is it now. You just can afford to make your life shittier for an “experience” to then have fun solving the issues you’ve created for yourself



Then say "constraints" if it feels better. To me, this conversation comes off as much more of a manufactured problem than idealistic people living on a boat and figuring out how to make tech work for them.

Edit: However, upon reading further comments, I don't want this to be seen as a defense of the group against actual complaints.



One of the (many) fascinating things here is that - even if by virtue of their 'self-imposed' stringencies - their output showcases production values that are very applicable throughout.-



> , so saying it's retroactive justification isn't really true and minimizes the real problems they face.

I wouldn't call any of the listed problems "real problems" in the context of my long winded disability and homelessness lmao. I used to be in their community, the mods, and indirectly, them, were abusive as hell. Their community is, last I heard, hemorrhaging queer folk (or maybe it's bled dry and queer folk just don't stick around there anymore!) because they have repeatedly shielded abusive members and placed them in positions of power, and ignored, silenced, and ejected their victims when they finally kicked up a fuss about it. Part of the move from an internal chat to Mastodon was specifically so it would take the pressure off them having to actively perform any sort of moderation duty or deal with the abusive people directly.

They are, fundamentally, rich people playing at being poor and living in a tiny sustainable island while the rest of the world burns. Their stuff is very interesting, sure, but stating "real problems they face" ignores the fact that every one of the problems they are facing are ones that they themselves have created. I actually really love some of the things they've come out with, but it's important that all of their work comes with the context that it was formed in, at least in my opinion.

edit: I forgot about the 'cult' thing... they are absolutely a cult. at least one of their members made explicit reference multiple times to being part of a cult and it was never actively denied outside of a "well, not yet, we don't have the numbers ;)" kind of thing.



Wow, you're the first person I've seen speak up about having similar experiences with them as me, thank you. I was a merveilles member some years back until I had some really rude/abusive interactions in IRC from Devine and a prominent moderator. I really would love to play with uxn and varvara but gosh I simply refuse to be around people like that.



Thanks for writing this. It matches my experience 100%. I just signed up to comment because I know people will desperately want it to not be true but there are plenty of us ex-mervilles folk out there who've experienced the cult element and abuse, we just don't talk about it.



No that's not what they mean. They mean you'd kind of assume someone who identifies as queer, or is at least knowledgeable enough on the community to participate in some ways, wouldn't be homophobic.

In practice this isn't the case, because you can use this as a shield. So for homophobic people it might be advantageous to enter the community in a way that causes the least amount of personal friction. Like, simply putting pronouns in your bio and doing literally nothing else is trivial - but the social benefit is not.

It's a big problem, because people who ARE non-binary or ARE bisexual or whatever then get a ton of backlash. Because those identities are the most common to be commandeered, so to speak. At least online.



The thing to understand about minorities, the disabled, queer and alphabet folk is that they are human beings just like everyody else.

Ergo: some of them are actual arseholes.

Oscar Pistorius was an abusive murdering douchebag, not just a brave para olympic gold medal winning runner.



Indeed. And even within a group that shares some core identity across one axis (e.g., queer people), the usual fraught hierarchies have a way of establishing themselves—unless you really make a point of preventing that from happening.

The ones who are wealthy will hold relative power over the ones who aren't. The ones in good health may neglect or actively exclude the ones who aren't. Racism and xenophobia rear their ugly heads. And so on.



It's a bit like saying: People climbing a mountain can solve their mountain-climbing problems by not climbing mountings.

Also not unlike: It's not the destination, it's the journey.



"We choose to make this video game and do the boat life thing, not because they are easy, but because they are hard. Because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win!"



Living on a sailboat approaches some very very hard life/existential pinnacles that most people never even attempt to climb.

Yeah, you can have a simple regular life; that's lower on problems maybe. But man, sailing around & futzing with interesting barefoot developers projects sure sounds challenging in a lot of very very excellent ways.



Satellite internet is expensive, let’s all move down town! Housing in the city is expensive, let’s all move to sailboats! So you see at some point you have to address difficulties with some kind of approach besides avoiding them



Exactly my feeling.-

PS. Which leads me - tangentially - to think that (maybe) the solution to (at least) some of our problems might someday be found in a cult :)

Who knows ...

> Absurd: So we ported everything over to the NES.

This was grand. The NES as a most effective "baseline" platform. Can totally see humanity sending out an NES emulator on Voyager VI as a last gasp.-



Good call :)

"8 bit 'looks' and hardware constitutes - and 'looks like' - some optimum as far as computing is concerned"

... so sufficiently advanced systems will look like it to interface with us as a sort of lingua franca.-

AGIs. Alien probes. The works. They will all look to us like a C64 or NES would :)



It's like how you can say that VT100 emulation has an expiration date, but you can't say that about the underlying concept of some UI based on a screenful of monospaced text, which is immortal.



> PS. Which leads me - tangentially - to think that (maybe) the solution to (at least) some of our problems might someday be found in a cult :)

The major religions have been beating that dead horse for a long time.



I apologize for an off-topic question, but I'm curious why you choose to write "." as ".-". Is it an internet convention I'm unaware of, or maybe punctuation from a language other than English?



cults are generally the only way to solve deep-rooted problems. otherwise people's habits are too strong and they keep reproducing the existing traditions that create the problems through unexamined avenues

technically varvara isn't actually the nes



LessWrong had some pretty good advice in the early months of the pandemic, despite their terrible track record on politics and AI. There's a lot right with the Amish. You could write an entire book about the Rocky Horror Picture Show. Cults can have a lot to offer.



> Cults can have a lot to offer.

... in no small part perhaps because they remain isolated "pockets" of culture where - often - "progress" is slower or more controlled. Where idiosyncratic behavior becomes the "new" orthodoxy as behavior or culture "degrades".-

Where was it ... "Nightfall" (the novel) I think it was where a cult periodically saves civilization - by being the only ones that know how to handle the aftermath.-



Which, holds (?)

PS. Except for AI, perhaps ...

... I was going to add certain forms of cryptography to that, but then realized that we've always have had some sort of cryptography that was "hardware-appropriate" (ie. sufficiently hard to break, to be useful) for the age. So older hardware was just fine ...



Neural nets using individual tubes as nodes? Although the current trend seems to be quantizing down to a minimal amount of bits to process more in parallel, in an analogue system you could have a near "continuous" range of values.



Any crypto you did couldn't be future-proof in the way it is today though. Don't know if that's mainly due to better algorithms or from the fact modern CPUs are optimized to rapidly decrypt/encrypt things.



It was algorithms. Back in the 90s there was no AES or ECC. There was RSA, and it was feasible to generate long keys, but it was impractical. Keys from back then could probably be easily factored nowadays. I think the spread of the Internet pushed demand for longer keys and better (more secure and efficient) algorithms.



Just because I was there (I agree with your general point) I wanted to say that I made my first PGP key in 1995 and it was a 4096 byte one, which is just as uncrackable now as it was then. I even remember being vaguely confused, because it gave you options, and I was thinking to myself "wut. Who wants the weaker-than-necessary key. I'll take the big one, thx"



Interesting. How long did it take to sign? Also, though I wasn't sure (which is why I didn't mention it), I thought one of the reasons keys were so short back then was due to the US classifying encryption algorithms as munitions, which made working with actually secure encryption standards difficult for developers. I would have expected the longest key would be 1024 bits, at a stretch. Even that is barely crackable today.



    Chat rooms and bare bones text editors aren't supposed to be process-heavy, and yet the popular communication platform Slack requires outrageous amounts of ram and CPU to function. [...] Making software this way is costly to off-grid users, or those on slow connections, [...]
So true.


It could be worse. One word: Urbit.

What the boat couple is doing strikes me as the most romantic sort of bricolage and just gives me the warm fuzzies all over. But Urbit just pisses me off for a variety of reasons.



I'd like to know if they ever nearly died (or became very uncomfortable) from running out of food, broken boat, or otherwise.

Their boat is very small and has only one engine, and it looks like they will sail thousands of kms in one leg on occasion.

I am soft. If I must do this, and I would kick and scream, I would sell my house and buy a yacht with megalitres capacity of water, batteries, refrigerators, and starlink. But I do not think that I could be happy doing this. I would find it more anxious than normal life.



Occasionally i've stumbled upon some neat tool or beautiful software and i'm like, wow - who's behind this? And then I realize it's these two folks. Their approach is so surprising and inspiring, thanks for putting out some cool stuff into the world!



The search term is "permacomputing" afaik.

Here's 100r's (specifically xxiivv's) page on the topic https://wiki.xxiivv.com/site/permacomputing.html

The first paragraph gives a good overview of the idea:

> Permacomputing encourages the maximization of hardware lifespan, minimization of energy usage and focuses on the use of already available computational resources. It values maintenance and refactoring of systems to keep them efficient, instead of planned obsolescence, permacomputing practices planned longevity. It is about using computation only when it has a strengthening effect on ecosystems.



That's the idea. However, my initial criticism of the way permacomputing is formulated are:

1. We could have examined each of the 12 Permaculture Design Principle and attempted to directly apply them to software design. For example, "Observe and Interact" is so broadly useful and versatile (and the core of adversarial domains, such as warfare), it can easily be applied to software. You won't see it directly listed here: https://permacomputing.net/Principles/

2. The permaculture ethical principles are not there in full. "Care for life" refers to "Care for Earth", "Care for People", but nothing about "Fair Share". Comparing these two ways of looking at it, I don't see how the permacomputing formulation is an improvement on how the permaculture ethical principles are formulated. Furthermore, I think this has more to do with not sufficiently delving into the place of technologies within a regenerative paradigm. I am speculating here with little basis, but I don't think the people who came up with this got their hands dirty with planting, nurturing, and harvesting things.

However, reading more with 100r, CollapseOS, DuskOS, there is a lot of thought put into this even if I think there are some key things missing from my experience with permaculture.

It is why my friends and I are exploring the ideas of "permatech", what is Technology's full, integrated place within a living systems world view? We have yet to come up with anything coherent yet.



Oops, I meant "permacomputing". Among my friends in a private discord group, we were generalizing that to all of tech and I forgot it originated from "permacomputing".

There is a related project from permacomputing that I'd like to highlight: CollapseOS/DuskOS which has overlapping and adjacent ends with what 100 Rabbits are trying to do with UXN. I know there are attempts to port UXN to DuskOS.



These two precious human beings are an inspiration for me since very long. Their radical life choices are a teaching for me; the most important part being that it all happens incrementally: tooth paste can be replaced with something that has less chemicals, no packaging, cheaper (and that doesn’t clog the pipes of the boat… a “fix” that came later) and likewise many other things in our daily lives.



UXN / Varvara (a project by these folks) is something really special https://100r.co/site/uxn.html - an approach to creating intelligible software by applying strict complexity constraints, sort of like Viewpoint Research’s STEPS project, but with more concrete goals and an even smaller and simpler basis.


Nice site. This and 100r are an antidote to the soulless corporate AI slop that's slathered over everything these days. And a webring too? Don't mind if I do...



If anyone is interested further, I would highly recommend one of Devine’s latest talks, from Strange Loop:

https://100r.co/site/computing_and_sustainability.html

Transcribed and video format. Among other things, they came into computing from a bit of a different direction and ended up building tools and a platform that I’m betting 90% of people in the industry would revere in awe as things beyond their understanding. Truly an inspiration.



They've been around for 15+ years I think. Recently found some clones of their repos that aren't available/updatable. Very fascinating folks and collective activity. More than just software-making



At WHOI we frequently run into some of these issues. Ocean-going projects often have long periods of disconnect, or have just a tiny bandwidth-capped connections that are meant for sending home critical data and not for automated software updates...

So much software also just takes for granted that it should be allowed on the Internet.



You're telling me. Being on HN and working on remote autonomous systems is such a dichotomy. We measure transmission rates in Kb still and costs in thousands of dollars. Not to mention power consumption. Sometimes I wish there was a conference for people working on these kinds of projects. "The union of Luddite scientists annual meeting" or something.



>So much software also just takes for granted that it should be allowed on the Internet.

Indeed, and I find it a problem on land too. I use Miro at work and it is _awful_ on an unreliable internet connection, like on trains in the UK.

I really value local-first software for this reason. I’d like to see more of it.



It’s weird to be a “fan” of programmers but I’m a big fan of Hundred Rabbits. Orca is one of the most fun projects I’ve used in years and the fact that it’s from some hackers on a boat makes it all the more delightful.

I hope they keep it up (I donated, I’ll probably donate again now).



I think sailing and free software have in common the type of freedom that is not unlimited, necessarily constrained by the reality of sharing a planet with billions of other primates. There are a lot of rules one must follow to share the pacific ocean (especially the parts close to land) with other people, but that doesn't make travel under wind power any less captivating.

Also, the Yamaha 33 is an impressively tiny and light boat for the sailing they're doing, let alone living and working on.



We sorely need more serious experimentation with computing & computing cultures and IMO Hundred Rabbits is a great example of this. Instead of talking about ideas, they practice what they preach.

As with most experiments, we can observe and borrow shadows of their ideas into our own life hopefully!



I appreciate people who dare to experiment with their life style.

The boat idea would perhaps too lonely for most people, but it would be nice to see folks experiment with re-inventing communes/new types of forming communities.

There is strictly no reason for each person to own a TV, PC, dishwasher, washing machine, etc. - most of that could be shared so as to reduce electronic waste and increase sustainability.

The minimalism idea of their VM resonates with me and remindes me of Niklaus Wirth, who had similar values and pushed things even further (designing his whole hardware + OS + language all by himself).



>here is strictly no reason for each person to own a TV, PC, dishwasher, washing machine, etc. - most of that could be shared so as to reduce electronic waste and increase sustainability.

This sounds nice in theory, but doesn't work out well in practice. You get a tragedy of the commons situation where people don't take care of the equipment and it gets broken, or dies early. Also, some people are just really bad with handling and taking care of things: some people will buy some item, and then you look at it again years later and it's in pristine condition. But look at another person's identical item after that time and it's either destroyed, or looks really beat-up. Maybe they're too rough with it, maybe they never clean it, maybe they don't maintain it, but I've noticed some people just seem to destroy everything they use.

Also, trying to share many things doesn't work out in practice because people want to use them at the same time. You can see this at places like laundromats; you can't expect people to wake up at 2AM to do their laundry. People usually like to watch TV at the same time too. So you need enough equipment to handle peak times.

And sharing a PC? What do you do when someone in your commune insists on clicking on every potentially malicious attachment on your shared Windows PC?



There's a way to fix this, it's called an "extended family".

But that's, like, the Patriarchy. That would really harsh our buzz, so we need to reinvent, in a broken and stupid way, what previously worked fine for tens of thousands years.



> We sorely need more serious experimentation with computing & computing cultures

Indeed.-

PS. If we stop and examine, our entire computing "paradigms" have been - mostly - driven, propelled forward by "industrial", commercial, business productivity (use cases) ...

... but what would have happened / will happen were these paradigms to emerge (and emerge mainly) from art, creation, play, instead?



I think modding communities are a reasonably good analog to this. Up until someone realized you could change the alpha channel of wall textures to make them transparent, the way to get a custom skin in Counter Strike Source (and 1.6), was to drop a file into your install directory.

The game would check for files named the same as it's default resources, read them in for use instead of the original. But then people started using the aforementioned transparent walls in competitive matches, and so a new variable was introduced to force the use of the defaults.

The next game (CS:GO) provided skins through a marketplace, including the use of loot-crate mechanics, the prices of in demand items sky rocketed, they are now used as currency for hackers and online gambling, and the online skin gambling sites have been caught advertising fraudulently through streamers. "rare" skins can sell for tens or hundreds of THOUSANDS of dollars.

In short, a great feature got exploited, commercialized, more exploited, and inspired a great amount of profiteering and sketchy business practices while ruining community aspects of a whole genre of entertainment (lots of copycats).

What I'm trying to say, is I think those paradigms most likely would have been co-opted by third parties in the name of greed and profit, destroying the communal and humanistic aspects of them in short order.



I had the good fortune to meet and spend some time with Devine at Handmade Seattle a couple of years ago. It was an absolutely wonderful, inspiring experience.



They are exactly like you'd imagine from their online work.

Extremely passionate about ecology. Pessimistic about where the world is headed but optimistic about our individual ability to cope with it.

Super into low-level programming and old school pixel art and that whole aesthetic.

Absolutely full of stories about sailing. And just completely present in conversation.



Buying something that will last 10 years instead of buying a home that will last generations. Even more, most likely this people already had a home.

Is like buying a electric car while you have a luxury ICE that works, is a waste of resources. I dont really mind, but dont say you care about the enviroment.



> Pessimistic about where the world is headed but optimistic about our individual ability to cope with it.

Therein lies one key, methinks. I find that refreshing. It seems a viable "compromise", and, a solution to "data disaster driven dispair" :)

... faith in the individual.-

> And just completely present in conversation.

Incredible.-

Many thanks for sharing.-



You being in awe of them is very relatable to me lol. I discovered them a few years ago and seem to be surrounded by people that just don't "get it". A lot of people think programming and/or computer science as a way to make art, as a tool.

What I think is cool about 100r is that it is not "computer generated art" or "digital art", but rather "computer science/language design/programming as art". It's like they have this respect and reverence for it that I've often felt, and I often feel isolated in feeling.



> that it is not "computer generated art" or "digital art", but rather "computer science/language design/programming as art".

And, what an enormous difference there is, between these two things.-



Urbit had a fair bit of creativity in both aesthetic and tech. But yeah I agree it was mostly a crypto scam mainly driven by a no-longer-open/loud neonazi.

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