My thinking is that this machine appeals mostly to people who already has an espresso machine. It's not particularly technologically advanced. It's a single boiler, an E61 group and a vibratory pump. If you're buying this machine, you're probably replacing a machine at a similar technology level, and that's not really a sustainable choice.

A well maintained espresso machine has a lifespan in the range of decades. Many recent innovations in espresso machines is mostly controllers, sensors and actuators. Also better pumps. These are all things that can easily be retrofitted to an older espresso machine.

There has been innovation in other areas not easily retrofittable (saturated groups, dual boilers instead of heat-exchangers, to name a few), but this machine doesn't really feature any of those.

I strongly believe that in this particular demographic, it's a much better (more sustainable, cheaper and all around more fun) idea to retrofit new and advanced parts to the espresso machine they presumably already have, than to buy a whole new machine. We don't need old espresso machines on landfills.

On the off chance that a prospective buyer doesn't already have a similar espresso machine, this isn't too bad of a choice, and the price is decent, but on the other hand, there are a lot of used machines on the market that are looking for a new owner and can be upgraded.

If this was half the price, I might be interested. But if I wanted a coffee maker with open source control, I'd probably just hack an existing cheaper product. And I'm someone who absolutely loves assembling stuff from kits!

Heck, I'd be surprised if someone hasn't already got Doom running on a Sage.

* Espresso machine electronics are very proprietary. There's basically one manufacturer, no published schematics and very closed firmwares.

* That one manufacturer's hardware occasionally breaks and needs replacement, and they charge up the wazoo for it.

* Firmware updates is not a thing. Buying a new controller with the new firmware is your only option.

* Espresso machine electronics hardware is pretty firmly stuck in the past. If you're lucky you have a 128x64 px OLED, but more likely you have LED indicators, 7 segment displays, or graphical LCDs.

There are absolutely exceptions to this, but for 95% of the espresso machines out there, you're definitely not getting the full potential of the hardware.

I don't know if I'd consider adding a screen to an espresso machine to be an improvement. What would it be useful for?

(1) Automatic shot timer.

(2) Shot volume display (my machine is a volumetric one, but I have to measure the weight of the output to calculate what volume it dispensed)

(3) Ability to configure other parameters, such as pre-infusion time, where I'm guessing the manufacturer just left this out because it would complicate an already kind of painful button + LED UI.

I also wish it had a group head temperature sensor, but that would add more hardware to the machine than just the screen.

More control than that, or a totally open PID, might be a hard sell for safety reasons. That alone is a nonstarter, but even as you approach that level of openness, it would be pretty hard to support and really isn't needed if you just want a good shot of espresso and aren't taking an niche academic approach to an already niche process. This is why you likely won't see it in more commercial machines.

Perhaps you're thinking of the commercial market and I'm thinking of consumer, but there's been a lot of really interesting developments in the last few years at the intersection of affordable and high quality output -- I own a plus Bambino plus now, for example, which is simply a delightful machine, though I too wish I could modify the firmware.

I've ordered DIY framework laptop not because it was cheaper, but because it was fun to build it.

I’m actually taking a very componentized approach with my new Rust based firmware. Wherever it makes sense, I’m spinning things off into separate crates and will be publishing them (e.g. crates for the ADS124S08 and FDC1004 used in the All-Purpose Espresso Controller.

Also, everything is permissively licensed, so feel free to use whatever you want.

As an aside, I'm frustrated for the same reason regarding induction cooktops. European units are a fraction of the cost of their American equivalents.

Besides that, I would absolutely not recommend you buy this.

Reason: the parent commenter already hinted in the right direction. The E61 brew group is ancient (invented in 1961 by Faema in Italy, hence the name), it sports 4kg of brass and many moving parts (3 valves, camshaft + lever) and features an analog pre brew chamber.

I do restore italian espresso machines for a hobby and have come to the same conclusion as the parent. Even if they're not maintained properly those things are meant to last and can in most cases be resurrected. Most spare parts are readily available and defacto industry standard (eg. The Brasilia ring brew head) and you can retrofit nice electronics easily (eg. clever coffee or the gaggiuino foss controller project featuring pressure transducers, pid controller(s) and a controllable Flow/Pressure rate, profiles, apps and so on).

This diy project is imho bland and uses the most ancient brew head available, with unnecessary heat dissipation, long warmup times and probably leaded brass...

The only thing I'd change is the electric heating element. I'd like to be able to use it on my boat where electric BTUs are expensive compared to gas. Maybe there's a DIY boiler in my future.

Check this Video comparison (Not a modded Silvia though, but a Gaggia classic which I would not recommended due to its aluminum boiler and the new China manufactured models have a (probably Teflon) coated boiler that likes to shed the coating... just search on reddit). The emphasis in this comparison is on the Gaggiuino mod, which does all the magic (profile based brewing). The underlying base machine is not that important. I would stay away from Sage/Breville, too much non standard parts and lots of plastic for my taste.

Decent Espresso vs DIY Gaggiuino build: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4kAgPm1Xfw

Edit: many typos and some rewording

Although I've been regularly fixing my Baratza grinder and Rancilio Silvia for years the fact is that disassembling hardware and tightening screws still looks slightly scary and dangerous. It is always an adventure but not always fun.

My fearless limit on hardware DIY is assembling IKEA furniture and cleaning my bike. Beyond that, I'd think twice.

I understand the appeal to "hackers", but if you just want coffee, there are more, proven reliable, less expensive, options.

However, it is probably now in need of a teardown. the brew pressure bypass valve is seized, and there is some scaling/corrosion in the brew head. I've got a machine shop, so I'm tempted to tear the whole thing apart, rewire, and replace the core electronics, but I'm not sure exactly what to do.

On the assembly instructions, page 39 shows the boiler assembly has a therm-o-disc thermostat fixed to the top. It's not labelled, you just have to recognise it. The schematic on page 44 shows it's wired in series with the boiler's heater. That provides redundancy for the main temperature control, which is presumably the microcontroller sensing from the PT1000

Page 32 also describes the installation of an overpressure valve (which appears to return water to the cold tank?)

The machine does lack hardware run-dry protection though; as far as I can tell, it relies on a load cell to detect if there's water in the tank. If you ran it without water to conduct heat from the heating element to the thermostat, the thermostat wouldn't function. So it's not entirely safe, as you say.

[1] https://diypresso.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/05/2024-05-27-...

There isn't enough detail of the boiler to tell if there's an overpressure relief valve. The boiler can't be made safe without one. If they're cheap enough to be standard in cheap knockoff moka pots one should be here...

This machine's wiring diagram shows an unlabelled shape wired in series with what might possibly be the heating element and a shape with "ssr" in its label. Which places the first unlabelled shape in the right place to be a thermal fuse or switch. If they're cheap enough to be standard in Mr Coffee machines one should be here...

Safety discussion in this project is conspicuously absent. Knowledgable users shouldn't be making assumptions like this about safety features. Assumptions and safety aren't compatible. Average users should be informed in detail about the safety features they're tasked with assembling.

And speaking of safety, old FPV flight control software didn’t handle a very common mistake. It is very easy to put the wrong propeller on a motor. For example you might accidentally put on the counterclockwise propeller on the motor that spins clockwise. The result is when you arm the quad (as in turn on the motors), it flips its shit because the quad starts moving in a completely unexpected way. The flight control software is designed to “lock the angle (attitude) of the quad in and fight any uncommanded deviation”. Well, a backwards prop produces a hell of an uncommanded deviation!! So the controller tells the motor to spin faster to compensate but all that does is make things worse as the backwards prop pushes the thing in the exact wrong way. So it becomes an out of control quad that can and will cause property damage and injury (the propellers on a quad are large, very sharp and attached to very powerful motors. Coming into contact with a spinning propeller will send you to the hospital). This was a big problem in tight spaces like races and stuff.

A while ago somebody submitted a pull request that added a safety. When first arms, if the quad starts to behave “wrong” or “unexpected”, it immediately disarms. From what I recall it was actually fairly simple to detect too… if the “error” in the PID loop got too high it means something is very wrong mechanically and it’s best shut down. Countless fingers have no doubt been saved by this patch.

It’s probably very similar detection code to what is in 3d printer firmware or espresso machine firmware. If the PID error is “unexpected” something is mechanically wrong and it needs to shut down before Bad Things happen.

It has PID temperature control (typical) but _also_ pressure control. You could build a Gaggiuino for less money and the same effort, but you'd be left with a far lower quality piece of hardware as the Gaggia hardware has a shitty boiler, plumbing, group, and casing.

I'm not a huge fan of vibropumps either, but they're common for pressure profiling machines (up to $3-4K) because they're easier to control and compact. Moving to a rotary pump would cost ~$300 more at the component level, so while I'd a reasonable upgrade it would hurt the overall economics of the product to make that standard.

I still think it's expensive -- I personally would try to hit the market with a $999 kit cost if at all possible. The market for big spender espresso geeks without a machine is indeed small.

One of the issues with Flair is the loss of heat when the water is poured, which is why it is recommended to heat the unit also.

[1] https://github.com/Zer0-bit/gaggiuino [2] https://flairespresso.com/product/flair-58/

But what I didn’t realize is that espresso machines, much like other consumer hobbies was already a fairly expensive area to get invested. You get the machine but then you need a grinder, a milk steaming container, the beans, the tamper, the portafilter mesh screen, a deeper basket, bottomless portafilter, the “better” steamer tip for the wand... On and on you can invest money in this consumer hobby, middle man cornered market. Do you have the special tool to loosen your grounds if you didn’t tamp correctly? You’ll use it once or twice before just dumping out the grounds instead.

I have definitely reached my financial limit on the coffee experience. And most of the extra crap I bought bundled. At some point if I continue investing, I would not be saving money from buying a $3 cup of coffee from the cafe and the awkward barista waiting for me to tap the tip screen.

When I sell I’ll probably just buy a moka pot and milk steamer of some sort instead.

Experts can critique your cup, but hitting the sweet spot of “good” feels more like 97% of the output. If anything, the Pareto principle applies instead to the frequency of “good” extraction.

I don’t agree that a moka pot wouldn’t be enough. Percolation through a moka pot tastes 10 times better than my Gaggia. My Gaggia has no determination when enough is enough, I have to count to 20-25 seconds each time I want a cup. I once accidentally percolated a cup with it by not refilling the resovoir enough. The little water the boiler was able to pump out was pure steam and it was my best cup of coffee I had with the machine, even if it was maybe detrimental to the machine itself.

The advice from anyone trying to sell you fancy tools and from anyone trying to justify to themselves that they bought fancy tools will always be that you need to buy fancy tools in order to enjoy the product. It is, of course, an obvious fabrication to anyone not inside this loop, and a form of cruelty against someone like you who got burned by it and wants out.

> I agree that the gains are marginal.

Not even marginal. It very very very quickly becomes so far below marginal that neutrinos and putting your left leg into your pants first instead of the right leg will make a more consistent difference, but people will continue to exaggerate differences and insist that you need to spritz the grounds with holy water and give them a back massage first before brewing to make anything halfway palatable.

> Percolation through a moka pot tastes 10 times better

And a moka costs $20 and lasts through a nuclear war.

Good luck finding quality coffee beans after the war, unless your bunker has a coffee plantation attached.

Sure, but a moka pot is not espresso, by the definition of espresso. It is like espresso, sure, but it does not achieve the required pressures to, well, press (hence, espresso) the water through the coffee. That is why I stopped using moka pots.

> The advice though on the market is that if you want a good cup of coffee you need to do more than buy the machine

That may just be your opinion because I honestly don't see any reason to spend more than necessary on espresso, as BugsJustFindMe says.

In short, I want espresso, but I do not want anything past that point, because the gains are marginal.

Reminds me of the 3D printing hobby, you can buy a cheap printer and spend all your time and money tinkering to make it better, or you can just spend a little more upfront and spend your time printing instead of tinkering.

The espresso folks that like tinkering forget that sometimes someone just wants to have one to drink and then get about their day.

>At some point if I continue investing, I would not be saving money from buying a $3 cup of coffee from the cafe and the awkward barista waiting for me to tap the tip screen.

It'd be interesting if all of these projects online included an ROI statement at the end. I suspect most of them take years to pay off, if at all, if you ignore the entertainment value of tinkering.

That said, not everyone is looking for a machining project, but this is basically "some assembly required" not really my flavor of "DIY".

Anyway, I really like my Flair. It is fun to press the thing manually. And it is nice to have espresso still during a power outage (as long as I can get ground beans and fire).

I think this is a different definition of “do it yourself” though, hahaha.

Simple, not that expensive, extremely easy to clean and yet has less annoying maintenance than a fancy machine. Extremely unlikely to break. Very good control of the process and very good coffee.

Obviously the weakness of the flair is the turnaround time. (I don't have the Flair 58). But I am the only one in my house who actually drinks Espresso. For the amount I drink I don't think the Flair actually takes much more time than a very expensive automatic machine, because I would leave the fancy machine turned on and hot and ready to make coffee.

If everything is going well, I’ll usually just do one shot right after the other (no cleaning), like a barbarian. It works fine and I don’t have to heat up the water chamber again, haha.

Start with tuning brakes, to changing chains, and tuning derailleurs, changing cables, taking bits off for cleaning.

It will feel cumbersome, and a few times you will get yourself into a mess and end up taking a more-broken bike to the shop. But you'll get there eventually.

Get a book and start experimenting. Plan on re-doing some work.

Maybe find a way to hold the bike without investing in a work stand if you're over thirty. I've done a lot of work on the side of the road while bike touring, but that doesn't hold much appeal these days if I have another choice.

ETA: get a tube of bike grease from Park and a bottle of chain lube (Tri-Flow is fine, and so is everything else). Those'll cover your lubricant needs for years.

I really like the park tool website and videos for step by step instructions. RJ the bike guy on Youtube also has some good instructionals too.

I found most of the difficulty is identifying which components and/or standards your bike is using, rather than the process of fixing.

Also, friends who work on bikes are usually happy to help!

Yes, definitely, but please remember that while we love talking bikes, if you make a habit of discussing the purchase of an $8 set of brake pads for 20 minutes, we'll mysteriously disappear the next time you walk in.

The E61 grouphead is meant for commercial usage. It's heavy, tons of thermal mass, and has a tendency to overheat if it isn't flushed regularly (or, in the case of a commercial setting, just used... which typically isn't a problem in a commercial setting).

For most home usages of E61 machines you need to perform "temperature surfing" to get a great shot from an E61. More modern groupheads don't have such a large thermal mass and tend to be somewhat isolated from the boiler or thermoblock, so you can just heat them directly from a previously pulled shot and be just fine.

Again, not to say you can't make good espresso from them. I think there's also some E61 constructions and mitigate some of these issues, but they're not standard in the industry.

Dont understand me wrong, love the idea, but selling it for this price is just crazy.

Consumers should be more aware that if they can afford something, this doesnt mean it is worth buying it.

So “worth it” only really means “worth it to me.”

And I am not saying that any other mentioned "mid range" espresso machine is worth that money.

I've owned 5 machines from varying price categories and the number of features you get with a machine around ~1200 gets you the most consistent experience.

can you make a good shot of espresso with a ~250 euro machine? absolutely. can you make 2-5 back to back great shots? probably not. Can you use any bean you want and get a good shot? probably not.

its all about what you value in your experience.

I’m all for being skeptical, especially with something as subjective as taste.

But it always amuses me that people never bother to check their skepticism. Has it ever occurred to you that you might one day be wrong?

So it would seem that Audiophiles are the perfect analogy.

0: https://youtu.be/3XYTi6OBecA?t=2400 (Discussion on the study begins around 34:00)

We also setup a blinded coded triangle test, there was only 3 of us and four grinders: one $5k grinder, 2x$2.5k, one $700. 2 flat 2 conical. The flats have teeth supposedly for filter brewing. One coffee.

We picked the grinders correctly. Obviously we could have better methods, but the differences seemed obvious between the flats and conical. Within the same geometry, I think I just guessed the better tasting one to me was the more expensive grinder which may or may not be true. This surprised us. We didn’t think we’d pick anything. But all agreed on similar tasting notes for the flats and conical with no proper discussion or even looking at the notes for the coffee.

Brewing espresso I even observe psychical differences during the brew. I have two sets of flat burrs from the same grinder. Different teeth pattern. Same coating. One set allows me to go much finer to hit the same grams per second out and always leaves a soupy mess in the basket regardless of setting. The other doesn’t leave a soupy mess and grinds courser. I don’t know what’s happening. But this is easy to reproduce.

But then again, I also have a hand grinder that tastes more like my flats. And was quite cheap. So flat vs conical may not matter at all and it’s the shape of the cutting surface.

When making espresso, the frozen beans straight from the freezer, must be ground finer for the same rate of output. And it tastes slightly more intense. I would guess that TDS went up but I can't prove that. All I can prove is that the space between the burrs is smaller.

This is a very different difference than between flats and conicals. If you brew for cupping, that is grinds straight in water, the conicals produce a muddier coffee. Basically more fine bits of coffee are in suspension and you can feel it.

This woman was serving up filter coffee. If she used good filter paper, and ground coffee appropriately, I can totally buy that almost all the fines were removed from the final product and no difference can be tasted.

Will it take the same amount of work? Will it be as repeatable as the more expensive one? Will you need to temperature surf? How many wasted shots does it take me to dial in? Can you steam milk at the same time as pulling a shot? Can you do a ~19g dose?

If "taste under best possible conditiosn" is your _only_ metric, then, sure, I guess anything over a baseline espresso machine is frivolous.

But espresso is _very_ finicky to get right, even with the best and most expensive equipment, under the best circumstances. Having a reliable, repeatable machine removes one variable from the equation, letting you worry about one thing less.

Creature comforts and convenience are valuable too! A beat-up 1990 sedan will get you from A-B just the same as a 2024 luxury german car. But people value _nice things_.

I mean, audiophiles are also buying audiophile routers (digital technology is irrelevant here) and audiophile stones ( https://www.adventuresinhifiaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/201... ).

There always needs to be someone that overpays things or we would have those 1250 euro machines for 250 euros when market instead of hype would start working.

They are fundamentally different processes which product a completely different output.

Just head to technical data and feel free to explain which parameter is wrong. Take the cheapest one, 213 euros. Is is 15 (12) bar of pressure? Some other type of heater, as 1300 Watts of input power is not enough?

Seriously, I don't understand what the limiting factor is? Not expensive enough?

I even tried to find explanation by Hoffman and:

- cheaper

- plastic, not a lot of metal

- light

- small drip tray

- you need to "grip" it, whatever that means

- if you are clumsy you press buttons

- what you would expect for the money

But nothing about the taste of espresso... ;)

Somehow it looks not luxurious enough, right?

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/L7WniyTqV9I

Kind of related, lack of boiler at 1.5 atm means non-great milk foaming capabilities.

Also, you buy a good 1500$ machine, your grandchildren will be able to inherit it if you take care of it. That delhongi won't last two days further than the minimum required by guarantee.

About milk foaming, you are talking about this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7tS99wwpSI as I dont see any issue with the foam. I do see skill.

Anyway, a life hack, https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005007334888419.html, 0.91$ replacement for 1000$ boiler. And it does wonderful foam, was using it 10 years back on 1xAA battery.

So, if I buy 5x Dedica (edit, just checked: 167 euro in my country, so it is actually 8x) for the price, and package them NEW for my grandchildren, this doesnt count?

I've been dailying a Breville dual boiler since 2019, and I've tried a few other machines at coworking spaces and friends' places over the years. For me, as long as I can hit 9 bars with a decent puck extraction, the machine itself doesn’t make a huge difference in flavor. The challenge is finding the right beans, and the fine-tuning through the grinder and puck prep.

It's not that my machine struggles to push water through consistently, it's that I struggle to nail the grind size, achieve even particle distribution, and tamp evenly. Mornings especially—I just don’t have steady hands right after waking up. Funny enough, my best shots are usually in the afternoon. Sadly I try to avoid drinking coffee past noon, so it’s often for someone else, and I just take a tax with a tasting spoon.

The way I see it, upgrading the machine helps with drinks per hour throughput, not single shot quality. I think that's also why the at-home coffee community is more into things like the niche grinder and blind shaker.

It is easier to adjust flow and pressure in many cases than grind size. Also you will notice that a flat pressure profile is not that good - you will see and feel when puck start to degrade and you have to go down with pressure. People tend to make science out of everything these days, but you can perfectly go by feel if you have immediate feedback. As a plus, all these machines are incredibly simple, robust and serviceable. The Cremina I've got is from 96 and has all chances to outlive me.

The only thing I really would pay attention to is ratio - is can shift the taste a lot between sour and bitter.

Although now that I look a little more, according to the quick start guide, wifi isn't yet enabled in the software, although I imagine that means they have plans to. Plus of course, with open source software, I guess it wouldn't be too hard to do yourself.

I like this thing! Would love to see James Hoffman review it

I do the same thing with a dumb duct fan. Turns out smart sockets can cover a lot of ground in home automation.

Had a gaggia classic for a couple of years and I would never go back to single boiler.

I’m not an enthusiast. I just want a high quality espresso machine that makes consistently good espresso shots. I’m never going to be someone who wants to spend 15-30 minutes on creating a shot of espresso.

I’m bewildered that a machine that makes hot water push at high pressure through a puck of grounds costs more than a high-end computer.

What do people buy who don’t decant the smell of their own farts who just want an espresso machine?

What’s the ATH-M50 or the IBM Model M of espresso machines?

I tend to use Nespresso, especially now that the cups are simply available in the shop (and cheap aftermarket options), it's pretty perfect.

I know the manual process is more environmentally friendly but when I wake up in the morning I have no headspace for fussing with coffee grinds. I just need good coffee right away. And I don't even own a car or anything nor have kids so my footprint is pretty low.

Side Note: Personally, making my coffee is a nice process in the morning to kick my brain out of that early fog, it's something I have to engage with, but also something you can learn and get _very_ quick at to the point where you don't need much headspace to do it, not every espresso shot needs to be 1000% perfect.

The ritual of making it in the morning almost wakes me up as much as the coffee does :)

I buy aftermarket cups (10 for 2 euro 50, less than half the price of their own cups!) and the machine is made by Krups. I use those same cups at work because they removed all the coffee machines and put nespressos in place of them. The reason was that the machine coffee was so horrible everyone started bringing their own nespresso machine (they had a really good deal at the time). So now they just provide those in the office. The company I work for is too cheap to pay for coffee for us.

But for me it wouldn't work to do it manually. My house is a huge mess most of the time and messing with grinds etc requires more space.

For more info see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HouzvJGazs4

I don't have any issues with it though. But if my machine breaks I'll buy an aftermarket machine. Good point!

I wonder if the older machines also have this issue by the way.

I'm not sure that is safer than the microplastics or aluminium from coffee capsules.

Fully stainless steel machines are probably the best option, but there are very few of those around (and they would probably still leak nickel).

That's the problem though. We're all test subjects for a worldwide experiment to put microplastices everywhere and see what happens. It seems incredibly unlikely that they don't disrupt various mechanisms in the environment and our bodies.

Honestly, I think if you think about it and look around, we are test subjects for a whole swathe of worldwide experiments of various kinds. At some point you have to just realise that it's the cost of progress.

I am not saying that microplastics are harmless, but statements like: "It seems incredibly unlikely that they don't disrupt various mechanisms in the environment and our bodies." are baseless. It's unlikely that it does nothing, but it's more than likely (all things considered) that it's potentially worth the cost.

I wish I had a better reply than "deal with it" but you live on a planet with lots of other people and that includes dealing with pollutants you have no control over. All we can do is demand research be done on these things so we can progress while mitigating the risks as they come up. It would truly be wrong to just ignore microplastics and assume they're safe. But it is also alarmist to assume they must have a significant negative impact without any evidence for such a negative impact.

Think of it this way, while we don't fully understand how microplastics affect us, if they were shortening our lifespan by a significant amount we would probably already know about it.

I don't see how you can evaluate the cost of using plastics everywhere when the biggest benefit is simply to increase profits for huge corporations that don't have to worry about cleaning up after themselves.

> But it is also alarmist to assume they must have a significant negative impact without any evidence for such a negative impact.

I don't think it is alarmist to decry putting microplastics with unknown effects, into literally everywhere, including people's brains and mothers' breast milk. It's an obviously stupid thing to do - "we don't know what this does, let's pollute the entire planet with it and see what happens".

> if they were shortening our lifespan by a significant amount we would probably already know about it.

That seems overly optimistic to me. There's plenty of nasty chemicals/products that were sold for long periods of time before we eventually realised the damage that we were doing. e.g. lead in fuel, asbestos in buildings, tobacco usage etc. We have already noticed the direct harm that PFAs cause to human development and yet you seem happy to carry on spreading microplastics everywhere without requiring any evidence that they are safe.

He's now drinking Nespresso like me :)

Breville doesn't seem to be a common brand here in Europe but I see it is a lot cheaper. Nothing like the 80 euro of a Nespresso machine though (which has also lasted me 10 years despite never descaling it).

Machines which grind internally and produce a coffee fully automatically can be configured to produce decent coffee, but it's not exactly easy.

What I tend to do is drink "half-caf", I take 1 pod decaf and 1 pod normal in the same cup. It looks like for this one I'd have to change out the bean reservoir every time (or mix normal beans with decaf beans somehow).

It would probably be cheaper though yeah. Even the aftermarket cups still cost me 25c. I'll have more of a look at it once my current machine fails (it's going on 10 years now).

e.g. "It makes decent espresso and the money, time and mental energy for getting a slightly better espresso through a more expensive machine is just not worth it to me."

If you think that time, money and experience can only produce a "slightly better espresso" then I will just say you are not experienced enough to make such a claim. Rather than accepting that maybe to some there is a big difference, you call them snobs.

Whether that's because there is no coffee or brewing method out there that, when served black, would satisfy them, or because they've just not had the chance to taste what they would consider good coffee, of that I am not sure.

I do know how good coffee tastes like and would say: It's not worth it.

For you.

Please add that last bit, as it makes the difference between a statement and an opinion.

I am happy for you that you tried things and decided they were not worth it for you. At least you took it a step further than a lot of people who hold such opinions about speciality coffee. But I think you should open your mind to the idea that the people who think it IS worth it are not just pretending.

If there's anything that "everyone uses" it's the venerable Mr. Coffee 10/12 Cup drip brewers that have dominated the US market for 40+ years. They're popular for many reasons, but today, superior taste isn't one of them.

Most people like the taste of Nespresso pods, k-cups, drip coffee and Starbucks. The sales of all 4 reflect that.

The only office I know in our work where the coffee is decent is the one in Paris where they have a real coffee bar inside the office with a real barista (and cost-price pricing).

But in all the other offices we just have vending machines that spit out horrible swill.

I can't bring myself to drink instant coffee any more and will choose any kind of tea in preference to having to suffer the insult of instant "coffee". Drip-machine coffee at least uses real coffee, but in most people's hands leads to a horribly over-extracted brew and typically it's using supermarket-bought stale pre-ground coffee.

If you want to taste nice/good coffee, it can be made relatively cheaply. Buy some whole roasted beans (pre-ground coffee goes stale before it even hits the supermarket shelves), a decent hand burr grinder and an Aeropress device.

If you want to go for an electric bean grinder, ensure that it's a burr grinder as blade grinders are not suitable - they produce a wide variety of particle sizes which means that the small/dust bits get over-extracted and the larger particles are under-extracted. You could try sieving out the unwanted larger and smaller bits, but it's easier to just get a good grinder. For using an Aeropress, you can get away with a "cheaper" burr grinder, but if you want to make home espressos, then you probably want to be spending a LOT on a decent grinder as that will make the most difference to the quality of the espresso.

I myself make my morning coffee in a moka pot and prefer it over for example a pour over coffee. I recently got a Ninja Luxe Cafe machine which I use for espresso and fast cold brew coffee drinks. It makes decent espresso and the money, time and mental energy for getting a slightly better espresso through a more expensive machine is just not worth it to me. At my gitlfriend's I drink Nespresso because that is what she has. It tastes fine. It is definitely not horrible as many above have claimed.

I'd agree that getting better quality espressos can get expensive very quickly, and moka pots make very nice coffee for the price (definitely diminishing returns for high end equipment).

To me, the best bang for your buck comes with grinding beans to order, as that means that your coffee isn't oxidising so much before you even brew it. Personally, I'm a fan of immersion brewing techniques, so an Aeropress is my weapon of choice - it's relatively cheap and can make outstanding coffee (also highly portable - I take it along with a hand grinder when camping).

And sorry, but I do find Nespresso to taste very flat and stale the few times that I've tried it. I'd rather just have a good cup of tea than a stale cup of coffee.

It's really simple, people are happy with it because actually good coffee is so rare that they have nothing to compare against. I also doubt most of these people have ever drank a well brewed light roast espresso anyway so I think your blanket statement about "many people don't particularly like what you are calling good coffee" is bullshit.

Is that normal in 'good' espresso? I've had some coffee from shops with a particularly sour taste and I don't like it. It's not really because it's 'unusual' to me, I just really don't like it.

PS: I don't drink it with milk nor sugar. Just plain espresso with nothing (just in the morning I do like it americano with water). I like the strong taste and I hate milk :)

The vast majority of people have not tried well brewed coffee. Of those who have tried well brewed coffee, the vast majority have not tried well brewed light roast. The main reason is similar to how most people have not tried well prepared food. The reason is not, as you seem to insinuate, because I am a coffee snob who is incapable of conceding that different people have different tastes. Another reason is because in most of the world people drink coffee with various inclusions like heaps of sugar (Italy) and heaps of milk (the rest of the world) and because, as a result, almost no cafe out there optimises for black coffee outside of countries like Italy.

Most people who drink coffee black (even in Italy) seem to do it either because they got used to how bad it tastes, or because of dietary reasons, or because they feel it makes them look more manly.

> Maybe it is your taste that is screwed up and that is why you like light roast espresso.

Again, you are assuming completely incorrectly and baselessly that I am claiming that light roast espresso is better than nespresso pods. I am not claiming this in the slightest. I am claiming that any good dark roast espresso is miles ahead of anything you can get out of a nespresso pod. Both in terms of not tasting like wood and in terms of not tasting like light roast.

Even petrol station cafes in Italy can produce much better results than a Nespresso machine and Italy continues to love drinking dark roasted Robusta/Arabica blends with heaps of sugar.

Likewise, any petrol station cafe in Italy can produce espresso which is so much better than what you can get in a Starbucks that it's difficult to conceive of why Starbucks even offers espresso any more. (And again, this is me talking about coffee in a country where people are used to drinking dark roast and would also likely be at least weirded out by the taste of light roast coffee.)

> But either way even if Nespresso isn't the best coffee it isn't horrible.

It's horrible in comparison to a high quality brew in the same way that McDonalds is horrible compared to anything you would get at a well respected high end restaurant.

You only think it's not horrible because you have limited experience. Yes, even in the realm of dark roast espresso.

Edit: I would also like you to consider the possibility that you personally (and maybe most people) simply do not have a sense of taste which is discerning enough to taste the difference between what someone with a more discerning taste would consider "good" coffee versus "horrible" coffee. This doesn't mean that we can't make quality judgements about coffees once they're above a certain level of awfully bitter/sour/astringent and unpleasant, but it does mean that maybe for you and for the vast majority of people, you shouldn't worry about "excellent" coffee and should instead just get on with your life.

I would like to just state that I am overjoyed to hear that you have found coffee you like to drink every day. There are lots of people out there whose experience of coffee has always been terrible (and it is my belief that most of them, with some help to explore, could probably find something they find inoffensive or even tasty). But rather than telling people who seem care more about coffee than you that they are snobs and their opinions of coffee are wrong, maybe you should also accept that not everyone has the same sense of taste as you.

I know the above sounds contradictory when I called Starbucks and Nespresso "horrible" but I would like to clarify things by saying that while I find Nespresso horrible in the grand scheme of things, if it makes you happy, you shouldn't listen to my opinion of it and instead enjoy it.

On the other hand, if you do find coffee to be generally unpleasant, horrible, or even sub-par, then I encourage you to explore and consider opening your mind to the possibility that there is a coffee out there that you would enjoy.

Every morning I make a coffee for someone I love, which I would personally not enjoy drinking very much, but which she enjoys immensely. I offer her to try the coffee I like, and on most occasions she is either indifferent about it or hates it and this is fine, I do not try to explain to her that she is wrong, I just try to cater to her particular tastes with a high quality coffee and preparation method that she likes.

That's a pretty big generalisation IMO.

I just like coffee black because I tried it one time (there was no sugar) and I was surprised how nice it tasted. The only time I drink it with sugar now is with the typical Spanish "cafe con hielo" in summer because the cold brings out the bitterness more. I've never taken milk because I hate it in general.

But I truly like it. I've always hated the starbucks "milkshake" idea of coffee and I like it strongly tasting.

I mean I absolutely don't care about looking manly but someone who does would not undermine said manliness by admitting to it :)

Yet Nespresso (well mostly the aftermarket capsules) is very popular here.

But coffee culture in Italy vs Spain is distinctly different despite both enjoying espressos. Italy takes their coffee much more seriously (and really, all foods and drinks in general). Whereas in Spain they don't really care so much. Like pizza with pineapple, or cutting spaghetti with a knife, if you do similar things with Spanish food (e.g. like paella with vegetables) people don't care - except the Valencians :)

I usually drink doubles with 1 normal and 1 decaf so I don't end up bouncing :P

I'm in Switzerland where recycling Nespresso pods couldn't be easier, and we barely reach a 2/3 recycling rate. US and global rates are much lower.

If Nestlé hadn't crippled their machines on purpose, I'd think third party plastic capsules might be a better option in Europe at least, since they end up in waste co-processing.

Nestle invented an entirely new way to brew coffee AGAIN just to extra lock down their pod system from independent competition.

The built all this wankery about spinning the pods at like 30k rpm to "force the water through the coffee like an espresso machine" but it _doesn't_. As Mr Hoffman discussed, the foam it creates is just aerated coffee, which is substantially different than the foam you get from actually putting water through coffee at high pressure. All this to get a patent on a physical process so that competitors cannot drive the price of their pods down.

And the coffee still tastes like shit. And the machine takes a long time. And it makes a stupid and annoying noise. The system is demonstrably worse than any other pod based system because it was more important to Nestle that they get their pod profit margins than you get acceptable coffee.

Like seriously this should be a crime, not a civil infraction, a crime to artificially lock out competition like this.

On the other hand there are plenty of cheap original Nespresso machines pretty much everywhere in Switzerland. In some countries Nestlé was virtually giving them away around 2010~2015. Shortly after, some patents expired and third party brands started selling plastic capsules, and Nestlé had to fight back and make their machines work poorly with these!

As far as I know all patents have expired now, and a few third party brands sell 100% compatible aluminium capsules.

I don't like it, I think Original Nespresso tastes way better. Of course nothing compared to a good espresso extraction, but for a quick sip it is good enough.

But the main point of it is that they were able to create new patents and milk them for their duration.

Even the integrated gasket patent?

There's still the proprietary secret of how they grind the coffee. Which nobody has successfully replicated meaning that all else being equal you still don't get exactly the same result.

That being said, from my experience with genuine nespresso pods in genuine nespresso machines, they taste nothing like espresso and nothing like a good coffee.

Over extracted, pressurized espresso with capsules or even most semi-autos is disappointing.

After reading this, the invention made a lot more sense. K-cups seem to be a better choice for outside of the home where someone might want a single cup on demand with no prep or cleanup. Like waiting rooms, offices, hotels, etc.

Not sure what the deal is in other parts of the world, if Nespresso is sold there.

The company itself has a recycling program; you can mail them and some stores accept them.

> Also nestle is a terrible company for the environment and human rights.

Agreed, but so's pretty much everything else we buy.

(In theory, you could experiment with grinding and filling a user-fillable nespresso type capsule, but you'd get so much more flexibility and quality by not being tied to that specific design)

I would provide an archive.is link but it rendered the page VERY poorly.

The product looks pretty cool, and I bet it will be pretty expensive.

Here's the project's GitHub link (also very early in it's life cycle, hopefully): https://github.com/diyPresso/diyPresso-One

The superauto is more convenient, press a button, get a coffee. And if you put in decent beans, and follow the recommendations regarding cleaning/maintenance, you will most likely get a decent shot. However, it won't last as long, and you will be limited, that is, don't expect to get the perfect cup exactly like you want it.

This machine does not compete with consumer-level superautos, it competes with other E-61 "home barista" type machines, which you can also find off-the-shelf.

Sidetrack: the website mentions "driving espresso innovation forwards". Is this a thing? I love coffee but mostly just use a french press or a moka pot (which are more "great old school tech" than "innovation")

I will drink moka-pot coffee if that's all that's available, but espresso is what I want to have most days. So I have a good enough grinder and an mid-range espresso machine. It isn't always a success. Sometimes it's sour, sometimes bitter, sometimes too weak. Most of the time I don't have a clue why, so I can't address anything in particular, I can only try changing one of the few variables I can control with my setup, and hope to god that the other ones haven't changed on their own.

People are really serious about consistently producing real good espresso. Control and observability are what these machines offer.

If you want to fall into the rabbit hole Lance Hendrick's YouTube goes in depth into recent research and technique. And James Hoffman is a similar but more approachable source.

Having an open firmware appliance is cool. But latching that technology onto an espresso machine, something that’s existed for hundreds of years is ridiculous.

This device is for tech yuppies. Guys in the Bay Area who can boast about how their espresso was made open source.

Gaggiuino Gen 3 is free to use and will offer free software updates, but the source code is no longer available.

This decision was made to maintain high standards for the hardware required for the project and prevent individuals from fracturing the community with subpar, non-standard components and processes that were untenable for Gaggiuino’s community-driven support to accommodate.

Sincerely, *The GAGGIUINO Team

https://gaggiuino.github.io/#/?id=home

Let's use "Gagguino" to mean "the authors of the original Gagguino" and "Faceuino" to mean "the guy on facebook" just to make it easier to explain the situation:

Faceuino started selling his own kit based on the Gaggiuino designs with some modifications. Since the code and the designs (models and PCB) were permissively licensed, this was done at a profit. The kit came with instructions but unfortunately had some issues which caused weird integration problems which increased the support load for Gagguino.

Gagguino could have handled this incident normally: Reaching out to Faceuino to explain that his modifications caused integration issues which were causing a support load on Gagguino. And warning Faceuino that unless he handles support for his own commercial venture correctly that Gagguino will officially announce that Faceuino makes broken kits and that people wanting to mod their machine should follow Gagguino routes rather than go to Faceuino.

Instead, Gagguino relicensed everything CC-BY-NC, and started on some crusade against profit. Apparently some dude on facebook making a tiny profit selling in the order of tens if not (maybe) hundreds of kits was justification to relicense the entire project, stop development entirely, and start working on a locked down replacement for everything.

Now it's a completely proprietary project where you must buy the hardware from approved suppliers. The main control board can still just be normally flashed (meaning you could make a clone of it if you just make your own PCB). But the display unit (which now handles a bunch of the high level stuff) is a pre-flashed ESP-32 module which can only be OTA updated and you cannot flash from stock.

Now the website contains silly vague FUD like what you copied above. Meanwhile the discord has stuff like:

> *Pre-Activated Software and New LCD Units*

> The new software will come pre-activated on all the LCD units, which in are available exclusively through our official suppliers to prevent the scalpeing efforts some people are engaged into. We're launching with a 4.3" LCD version initially but a headless (no screen) version set to follow shortly after. Also considering a smaller LCD version for those who prefer a more compact setup while still keeping a always on system status in front.

What scalping? What is being scalped? What?

Why can't these people just be honest and state it outright: "We didn't realise what open meant and we think profit should be illegal so we're going to impose a bunch of silly restrictions to try to prevent anyone from making any profit on this mod."

I would respect that, instead you get crap like "This decision was made to maintain high standards for the hardware required for the project"

What???

For the previous version (what runs on PCB v3), the code is there. The new version adds a wifi, a web server, a higher quality HMI, and a bunch of additional profiling features. You can get the same profiling features in the original firmware if you just write your own code, although that's a bit janky.

The old code is written in some pretty ugly arduino C++ and you will need to use platformio to build it (which has telemetry enabled by default, which you should disable[0]) and the architecture as a whole is very "EE grade" (anyone who has seen any quantity of embedded code written by EEs will know what I mean). But it's workable as a basis for your own experimentation.

I've been meaning on just wholesale replacing the firmware, the existing firmware is very simple since the concept behind the machine is nothing new as far as control systems are concerned (Kalman filters, PID, and a curve to map between the current pressure and what flow rate to expect from the pump per pulse so you can do flow control). Most of the hard part is tuning the (somewhat custom but not exactly revolutionary) PID which was done before the project was relicensed, as well as calculating the pressure/flow curves for an the vibratory pump (again, mostly done before the relicense, but not hard to replicate if you take a blind basket and modify it to be a controllable flow restrictor).

The main thing stopping me is the choice of the original mod to use a Nextion HMI which uses some awful proprietary GUI designer and a proprietary file format. I don't really like the idea of having to use a proprietary GUI designer in a project, and the Nextion is very limited (which was certainly a motivating factor in the Gagguino authors working on the new display).

[0]: https://docs.platformio.org/en/stable/core/userguide/cmd_set...

Ha! I never thought about it this way, you're probably right on the time cost. Although, while the Decent espresso app which runs on the android tablet front end is open source, the firmware running the machine itself is not (unless I'm wrong). But given you can talk to it over bluetooth I think it fits my concept of "good enough" as the protocol is implemented in the open source app and the firmware as it stands gives you all the control knobs required to produce any result.

That being said, the reason I even considered a rewrite is because I particularly enjoy these kinds of ridiculous firmware replacements. For example, I've investigated it for the possibility of using rust to do it, it would be quite a bit of work as I would have to probably contribute to the state of the art but I've wanted an excuse for an embedded rust project and the STM32F411 (what you get in V3 by default) seems like not a terrible chip to base it on.

Gagguino has switched to STM32U585 and it seems like it's also supported relatively well in the embedded rust ecosystem.

It just all makes my heart hurt. It is a great accessible DIY project with amazing results, but just with insane baggage.