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原始链接: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38511280

根据上面的文字材料,以下是一些关键见解: - 由于公司文化、工作环境和薪资等问题,一些人对在大型科技公司工作表示怀疑。 - 评论表明,这些公司将利润置于员工福利之上,导致有毒的公司文化和工作与生活的不良平衡。 - 特别提到了苹果公司,批评其招聘流程,以及由于其文化契合度和对员工心理健康的负面影响而缺乏为该公司工作的兴趣。 - 其他评论强调了为中小型初创公司工作与为大公司工作相比的优点和缺点,承认更大的自主权等优势,但警告不要进行潜在的权衡,例如较低的工资和较少的可用资源。 - 提出了如何提高被这些公司聘用的可能性的建议,强调网络策略和参与相关社区或项目,作为提高招聘人员和潜在雇主知名度的方法。 - 最后,一些评论指出了对大型科技公司精英和享有盛誉的形象的误解和过度简单化,认为这些公司严重依赖第三方供应商进行零部件和生产,导致其声誉被夸大。

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Ask HN: What side projects landed you a job?
528 points by jessehorne 1 day ago | hide | past | favorite | 484 comments
I'm curious to see what projects members of this community have worked on that contributed to them getting a job.

What's the project?

How did it help you land a job? Did the project itself get you the job or did it help in the interview process? Was the project work related to the job at all?

Edit: Ya'll hirin'?











I wrote a Dropbox-like file sync and share application called Syncany [1] as a side project back in 2014/2015. While it never made it out of alpha, it had gotten some traction, and looking back, I am still proud of the architecture and design (not so much of the code, hehe).

One day, a developer from this random company in Connecticut (I am German and lived in Germany at the time) reached out to me in my project's IRC channel, and asked if I wanted to interview. I did, and I got the job.

I moved to the UK, then to the US with my wife, and stayed with the company for 8 years. I got promoted from senior engineer to Sr. Principal Engineer and had an amazing time there. I now have a green card and live in CT with my 2 amazing children (with German and American citizenship).

I often think back about how much that project and that person who reached out to me changed my life. How different it would be if I hadn't worked on my side project, if it hadn't become semi-popular, or if he hadn't reached out. Butterfly effect at it's finest.

[1] https://www.syncany.org

Edit: Fun fact: Drew Houston (Dropbox CEO) emailed me at the time and wanted to hire me, but he didn't respond when I emailed him back. And even many years later when I applied at Dropbox they didn't want me, hehe.



Drew Houston probably wanted to see if you were a threat ;) If you had written back and asked about an acquisition/ or how you are focusing on "Taking Syncany to the next level", you might have gotten a response. That was when they were doing their network expansion initiative.


That would be incredibly underhanded. But it's the most likely explanation on why the CEO personally made an offer and then ignored him.


Add-on story:

I joined binwiederhier for a while in developing Syncany and he invited me for an internship at his current employer.

The experience I gained both in contributing to Syncany and said internship helped me indirectly land the role I'm currently in, and my open source experience in general helped me land a cool engagement where I got to do some innovative open source projects.



Oh man, Pim! What a small world. I looooved working with you on Syncany, and I tried so hard to recruit you hehe. I looked you up on LinkedIn the other day and it looks like you're doing amazingly.

Ping me and we'll chat if you like. I'm working on a new open source project [1] that needs your help, hehe.

[1] https://ntfy.sh



I saw CT and I was like "hmm I wonder where in CT" and then I noticed the username. I kinda sorta know you IRL, so definitely a small world :D (worked at the same CT company) First time I recognized someone on HN so I have an uncontrollable urge to tell someone.


It has happened to me a few times, and it's really odd. Hi dude! :wave:


Looks great, what differentiates ntfy.sh from https://pushover.net/ ?


Pushover is fantastic, and if you are happy with it, then stick with it :-) I've never used Pushover, so I don't actually know all that well.

However, ntfy is 100% open source so you can self-host it if you like, and I believe it does have a bunch of features that Pushover does not (email notifications, email publishing, scheduled delivery, tags/emojis, phone calls, icons, ... see for yourself: https://docs.ntfy.sh/publish/). I'm sure ntfy is missing things too that Pushover has. I'll let you be the judge of it.



Self-hosting it does indeed sound intriguing! Looked through your Github repos and pcopy looks really interesting, too.

Is your name a reference to that Grönemeyer song, btw? ;)



pcopy is quite abandoned but it still works. ;-)

And yes, it's a reference to the song. Good catch. I was listening to it 20 years ago or something like that when I had to come up with a new username. And it stuck. ;-)



That's crazy about the missed reply. Maybe it was just email filters influencing fate! An abomination, but fascinating. Cool story! :)


Getting a green card by writing code on the side. Very cool, congrats.


That sounds hilariously on character for Drew :)


Sehr schön und süß!


Awesome story! Thank you


Amazing!


Is it common for Germans to dream about getting out of Germany and moving to US? Congratulations to you that you managed to do that, I am wondering how hard for German is to migrate to US to puruse better life here.


It is not common. Most Germans consider would never use the phrase "pursue a better life" when talking about the US. Quality of Life is in most European countries better including Germany.

There are however some who want "freedom". Not that they lack freedom in Germany but the spiritual cowboy style, rocky mountain lifestyle freedom. Another reason for migration are obviously job offers in some industries.



This is my view as well. However, if you are a young and healthy software developer, you can earn much more money in the US.


Most Europeans moving to America for work do so for this reason. Live frugally in America, earn cash, use it to improve life when moving back to Europe.


Have you actually lived in both the US and Germany?

I haven't but from what I have gathered the U.S is in many ways more preferable than Europe.



The country you grew up in almost always has a big quality-of-life head start, because it's where your friends and family are.

If you're in a poor country and changing country will get you a 10x increase in salary, that might more than compensate for only seeing your loved ones for a few days every few years. But if you're already pretty well off? Not so much.



And in many ways the reverse is true...

We could start listing things, but there's probably a list that someone else has made. And depending on how much weight/value they put on things, they could say one or the other is better.



I actually did, and visited the US many times after. I saw the good and the bad. In both countries.

There is no hard feeling, except that I want to express that the US while being a nice country to life is not the "pursue a better life" destination. It is all very relative.



At least for Germans the USA has a very bad image here. Because of all the Healthcare problems, Trump Jokes, Shootings etc


Honestly the number one thing I miss about America is the big supermarkets and sheer diversity of food products available. Also much better restaurants on average.

Germany is generally a better place to live if you have a low to average income. Think everything from transit to health care to tenants' rights. But like if you're aiming for really high salaries as a software developer, America is the place to be.



Same in France. Some move to the US, some to the UK.


Most Germans I know in tech (lived in Germany for 5 years or so) would never want to move the US. Everyone prefers the Germany social security/insurance/pension system (even if it’s quite mediocre compared to The Netherlands and Scandinavia).


>Most Germans I know in tech (lived in Germany for 5 years or so) would never want to move the US.

And yet GP did, and others more like him. FWIW I had two German bosses who emigrated to the US(one to California, one to Atlanta), so the US is clearly an attractive place for them and they say they loved it there just like GP.

The majority of Germans talking about how much they hate the US, have never lived there but they hate it nevertheless because it's a populat thing to hate in Germany, and also they don't work in tech, or need to rely on the welfare state, or are already from well off families where the lower local salaries make no difference. The ones working in tech who don't rely on the welfare state, are quite open to the idea of moving there for the right money.

Sure, if GP was one of those Germans from a mid-upper class background with a nice inherited Bavarian house (unaffordable at any German working wage) then immigrating to the US makes no sense as he already would have enough prosperity at home, but if you have no wealth and want to build it, then working in the US tech sector is much better than working in Germany.

So no, a blanket generalization cannot be made of "Germans wanting to move to the US", as that highly depends on their social/wealth class and career.

Edit: seems I upset the apple cart with my comment. Sorry, next time I'm gonna parrot the HN accepted "Germany-Good, US-Bad" party line if that pleases the crowd.



I think you got downvoted because you answer like you're being attacked, when someone just stated their opinion/views. He mentioned this is an opinion of people HE knows. This is also an opinion of most people I know(and I work with a lot of people from central/western EU). People have their opinions and that's ok, you might know people with different opinions and that's also ok, noone is attacking you or US.

I'm from Poland and I would also not move to US, unless me and my SO had guaranteed high-paying jobs. I currently make around 85k USD/y(base) and even if I could double that easily just by moving there, my living standard would go down dramatically as my current salary already puts me in top 5% in my country. I absolutely love how big US is, amazing national parks, the access to nature and general diversity of people, foods and cultures, but lack of public healthcare and free access to guns would be an absolute no no for me unless I was paid obscene amounts of money for those 'inconveniences'.



>I'm from Poland and I would also not move to US [...] I currently make around 85k USD/y(base)

Well that's why, because you already make very good money here. But the vast majority of Poles, or even other Europeans in even more expensive countries, don't make anywhere near that money, while having much more expensive housing than Poland.

With that kind of money you're living the good life here already so there's no reason to move to the US even for 2x-5x the money as you can already afford everything you could ever need in Poland on your current salary. You're pretty much in a bubble and are the exception, not the rule.

Like I said before, people with good material situation in Europe have almost no reason to move to the US. But what about those on less fortunate salaries with no wealth to their name, who would get a shot in the US for a >10x pay bump?

A childhood friend's dad moved to work in construction in the US(also from eastern Europe), and with the money from working 15 years there he's set for life in Europe, already retired early and in a McMansion back home. There's no way he could have achieved that financial independence by staying in his eastern European country. Not everyone in Europe has the potential to earn 85k/year here, while in the US it's much much easier.

For many jobs, the EU-US discrepancy in pay is insane, and not just in SW dev.



> Well that's why, because you already make very good money here. But the vast majority of Poles, or even Europeans in richer countries, don't make anywhere near that money.

Sure but we're talking in a technical forum where most of people work in software. Most devs in Poland make good or really good money.

> But what about those on less fortunate salaries with no wealth to their name, who would get a shot in the US for a 10x pay bump?

I can't imagine a person who makes minimal and moves to US in hopes of making more. Most people in EU who make minimal salaries live from paycheck to paycheck, they don't save enough to risk moving across the world. I honestly think that this person either ends up homeless or makes minimal salary in US too and probably ends up worse, due to lack of public healthcare/social support. If you want to make good money, you can do that in most countries(obviously with exception of 3rd world countries, countries with an ongoing crisis etc.). Moving to US won't suddenly make it happen.

If you already work in IT then the salary bump these days might be significant, but I would argue that salary to CoL ratio will stay roughly the same. Unless you're exceptional at what you do and have an extremely good offer, you're probably not going to improve your life significantly by moving. Why would moving to US give you 'a shot at 10x pay bump' that you didn't have in your own country?



>Sure but we're talking in a technical forum where most of people work in software. Most devs in Poland make good or really good money.

That may be, but on the topic of emigration from the EU to US, I was talking about the general population and what reasons they may have to move there since the initial question was about Germans wanting to move to the US, not about German devs exclusively wanting to move to the US, so please not move the goalposts to just to the SW dev bubble.

Yes, I'm aware many SW devs in Europe can build comfy lives, especially in low-Col eastern Europe with western wages, but again, that's a bubble of a small subset of the country's total workforce. The vast majority of Poles not working in tech don't earn that well at all (average salary in Poland is 20,265 EUR/year, and if you exclude well paid SW devs it's probably much lower) so pretty sure they might be more inclined to move to the US is given the chance at a 5x or so pay bump.

>I can't imagine a person who makes minimal and moves to US in hopes of making more.

The alternative to well paid SW dev careers in Europe is not minimal wage person living paycheck to paycheck. There are other jobs in between that pay mediocre or sub-mediocre in most EU countries but pay stellar in the US. For example my office mate's brother moved to the US(North Carolina) to work in banking just like he did in Austria but according to him he "gets paid bank just to move money from one account to another and has less stres than at his job in Europe".

Same for other average jobs as well, that while not living paycheck to paycheck in Europe, don't allow you to build any wealth either, but in the US can get paid significantly more even adjusted to CoL(North Carolina is not Poland cheap but it's not SV expensive either).



The comment you initially responded to was

> Most Germans I know in tech

It looks like you're the one trying to move goalposts on this conversation.



Maybe it’s not US-bad Germany-good or Germany-bad US-good, and more like home-good, away-scary or home-bad, away-alluring. Or maybe even home-good, adventure-exciting.

We can compare salaries, schools, freedoms, houses, and so forth til the end of time, but there’s always an intangible personal factor weighing down the scales to some extent. I think that’s what gets people to actually uproot and move, no matter which direction they go.



Exactly. Having just made an international move for a job and going through the research and decision making process, I found it really boils down to the intangible personal factor that you speak of. What does the individual value and what are they seeking? It's impossible to assign one answer as to which place is best.


> a blanket generalization cannot be made of "Germans wanting to move to the US"

Same goes for your blanket generalization implying Germans are either rich, rely on welfare or like working in the US.

I myself would never consider moving there just for a higher salary.



>Same goes for your blanket generalization implying Germans are either rich, rely on welfare or like working in the US.

I never said Germans are relying on welfare, I said the Germans WHO rely on welfare would not consider moving to the US for obvious reasons. Nor those who are already financially stable, again for obvious reasons.

>I myself would never consider moving there just for a higher salary.

Good to know. Tell us more about yourself.



OP’s story is from 2014-2015.

I’m not German but French, however I do feel that this "Silicon Valley dream" upon developers was still existing in this era.

It was at that time that we started to have startups in Europe who tried to follow the SV culture. GAFAMs were still seen as cool enough to envy a well paid job at them. A lot of SV startups weren’t openly privacy hostile (or maybe the issue wasn’t took seriously enough).

But I felt that this "dream" was only upon developers at that time and it stoped sometimes after. In fact, in 2015, while on a trip to SF, I ate with a former French coworker who decided to live the dream and he was already saying to me that he wanted to come back in Europe because he couldn’t stand the ambiant culture anymore.

It wasn’t the job, he loved it, performed well, was well paid. It wasn’t even the people, he made some friends there, felt like people were genuinely nice.

But it was more the delusion about the SV-Life and the mismatch in cultural values and in the global society lifestyle in which he felt you were nothing to others / to the society without money.

Now I do feel like that this sentiment about the US is now more mainstream in Europe even amongst those who never came in USA.

ps : I urge you to not read any criticism in my comment, I’m describing a general sentiment from the other side of an ocean, probably with a big bias. But I do feel this sentiment is pretty recent and it’s probable that Trump made it way worse.



GP moved to Connecticut though. There's probably less "SV-culture" there.


CT is also quite close to european culture ( or, as closest possible in US ).


Trump made me doubt the stability of the US as a system. I don't daydream much of moving to the US anymore.


This is vastly different for native Germans and immigrant Germans. There are even some papers about how having a Turkish name immediately cuts your chances of getting a response to your job application in half. German job applications also require a photo on the application.

For a lot of immigrant Germans leaving Germany is very much a goal, since upward mobility in German society is very low compared to the US. So for a lot of "German Germans" the answer is no, but for the rest it very much is something people aspire to.

If you look at the statistics I believe outward migration is a little under inward migration, but I'd wager that there are a lot more people with higher ed moving out than are moving in.

I complain about the US a lot, but for me both the US and the UK were vastly better for my mental health and career than Germany was, even despite the average standard of living in Europe being much higher.



> German job applications also require a photo on the application.

I don't disagree with the rest of your comment but this is not true. Technically an employer cannot legally require you to attach a picture to your application or judge you any differently if you do not attach one, since the AGG passed in 2006 – although I don't doubt that it plays out different in practice sometimes.

I remember even being told in Highschool though that we shouldn't attach a picture to job applications, since it's generally not done anymore to avoid discrimination.



Yes technically, and how could you possibly enforce that? There is no rule forbidding it, so by default most employers still require it in their applications, but if they don't and you don't supply it, they will be suspicious.

There is no way around that problem unless that practice is explicitly banned. Instead, you just get this weird workaround, that doesn't technically ban it, but makes it completely unenforceable, giving the German bureaucratic system an excuse that they addressed the issue without ever having to address it.



I got all of my developer jobs in Germany without a photo.


> upward mobility in German society is very low compared to the US

This appears to be untrue: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index

Germany ranks 11th on social mobility, while the us ranks 27th.



I'm not sure why this would be called "social mobility index":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Social_Mobility_Index#M...

I would argue this measures governments services available to the poorest for free + to some extent how successful those government services are in fixing social issues (like teen pregnancy, "checked out" NEET youngsters, ...)

This Doesn't seem to me to at all measure how likely you are to get ahead if you try hard enough.



You can't get ahead if you get dragged down the bottom all the time, though. However, the chance of outsized success in the US if you make it, is larger though. I guess because of access to a larger market, but probably cultural factors, too.


Agreed. It’s much easier to assimilate than in Germany I’d say. The ceiling or bias simply doesn’t exist in US whereas perhaps due to historical reasons it exists in Germany. From experience, Turkish are treated as “mainstream” in US than Germany.


I rarely think about it but not for more freedom.

For making more money for 5 years or so to retire earlier.

But than I think about the bigger social gap and dislike the idea again.



I know I do and the amount of engineers in my circle that do is sharply increasing in the last couple of years.


Not super common, but many people dream of having better jobs and there's few better jobs than software engineering in the US. It's harder to move to the US since Trump cracked down on immigration.


Its finest, not it's

https://youryoure.com/?its



Thanks. Though I must blame this one one my phone's autocorrect. Hehe.


Back in 2002 I lost my job during a regional financial crisis (I’m from Uruguay).

I was working at a bank (as a contractors) and some coworkers and I were working on a HA project for MySQL at the moment (to use it at work). Once I got laid off, I focused on it to the point that it became quite useful, and at some point, someone from Israel reached out with questions.

I answered with a lot of delay, and when I explained that was due to me being out of a job and not able to afford a permanent internet connection, he offered to hire me and also set me up with a permanent connection with a contract paid by him.

If you’re reading this, thank you Aric, I’m forever grateful for that chance!

Curiously, last year I switched jobs and during the interview process it turned out the hiring manager had been a user of my project back in 2003 or so, which definitely helped with the interview process.

The project’s name was mysql-ha, later renamed to highbase due to a Copyright infringement notice from Sun (who were good about it and gave me a free 1 year subscription to Enterprise MySQL when I renamed the project). I abandoned it around 2008 as better things became available around that time .



I wonder how many of us got their life trajectories completely altered by that crisis. Mine sure was.

There's this fun question "if you could change one thing from the past...", and I don't know how to answer it truthfully, because we are the sum of everything in our past, the good and the bad, and I like where I am today... but man, that crisis was rough.



> because we are the sum of everything in our past, the good and the bad

Oh, definitely! I had a bunch of obviously bad things happen to me and I’ve gone through your “if you could change one thing “ exercise many times, until I learned to accept all of it got me to where I am.

In late 2001 my mother killed herself so by the end of 2002 I had a crash course on dealing with adversity!

Anyway, while I’m slightly older than you, one of my coworkers at the bank was the same generation as you at university so I remember you, and all the software you wrote that your classmates used. Crisis or no crisis, it’s no surprise you did great :) Nice to see your name on a comment!



Wow, that sounds pretty rough, I hope you're doing better now :)

Thanks for the kind words, your name definitely rings a bell. Small world!



That must give you an adrenaline rush of another level when the interviewer turns out to be your user. I want to feel that one day


It was great though honestly, my first reaction was a bit of panic. The first thoughts that came to my mind were "will he say it sucked? maybe he used it and lost some data?". Once that didn't happen then yeah, it was thrilling, and completely unexpected for a project I hadn't worked on for over a decade!


Que bueno ver otro Uruguayo aca en HN, somos pocos pero buenos!

Que estes bien Fernando, me alegro que prefieras quedarte en el paisito y cultivarlo ayudando a otros.



¡Muchas gracias!

Y si, espero que ahora que el trabajo remoto es mas aceptado, mucha mas gente pueda "irse sin irse", trabajando para donde sea pero desde acá.

¡Que estés bien también!



¡Somos al menos tres!


¡Somos como cuatro!

Dozens of us! Dozens!



Gabriel? Trabajamos en un proyecto común en 2007 para un proyecto de robótica para una empresa americana... otro uruguayo acá pero yo me tuve que subir al avión :(


Me acuerdo del proyecto :) Para que lado te tomaste el avión? Yo estoy en Europa desde 2011...


!Al menos cinco! All joking aside, great story @fipar.


That's a fantastic story. I hope fortune has followed you. I would be thrilled to find even one user of software I've wrote. To be interviewed by one for a job? That's amazing.

Good stuff!



Thank you!


phenomenal story, did you keep working on the project after ?


Thanks!

In 2009 I joined Percona and saw that, by then, it was better for me to contribute to other open source projects in the MySQL ecosystem than to continue trying to get highbase caught up with things like mysql-mmm.



> who were good about it and gave me a free 1 year subscription to Enterprise MySQL when I renamed the project

Sun really was good, huh?



Considering I was (unknowingly) very obviously infringing their trademark (X for MySQL was OK, MySQL-X was not), yeah, I felt the whole thing was handled in a good way.


I mean better things became available to manage HA in a MySQL deployment.


Having done a large scale MySQL deployment (700+ servers), I still find the HA landscape in MySQL land pretty sad. It's all very manual, nad it's very easy to screw up failovers. Even with Vitesse or Orchestrator or semi-sync ...


Oh, definitely, I meant things better than my project had become available. MySQL still has a long way to go in terms of friendly HA, and I’m not sure it will ever get to the level of something like cockroachdb. There’s plenty of room for improvements in that area, just not through something like what I was doing (mostly shell scripts).


Hola uruguayo. Los amo, nunca cambien. Abrazo grande.


When I was fresh out of college I semi-obsessively started answering StackOverflow questions about HTML Canvas, which was still new enough to not have a lot of coverage. At one point I answered over 10% of all canvas questions ever asked. I also blogged a few tutorials. This made Pearson email me for a book offer (HTML5 Unleashed, 2013, almost no one read it as I had no fame, but last amazon review: "Still relevant in 2018, best book on canvas I have read")

And writing that book lead to lots of recruiters. I humored one, they flew me out to SF, gave me a car for a few days (I had never been to the west coast), dined with me, and made me an offer before I was to fly back home, an offer that was lots more than I was making at the time. I told them I'd think about it.

But I was too scared to leave New Hampshire, and perhaps too sentimental, or some more nameless term, so I didn't accept the offer. All from answering some SO questions.



Once upon a time, answering people's questions on forums was an excellent long-tail payback career strategy. I used to answer many questions, write explainer blog posts based on repeated questions, etc.

In the early-to-mid-2000s, Macromedia paid for my trip to San Francisco, a hotel stay at the W, and a chance to meet the programmers and authors I looked up to -- all because I answered and helped people with their questions on online forums.



Yes, every forum has its early years phase where this occurs. It’s about like trying to catch a wave, you look for a building wave, invest some participation, and you have a fine ride.

Eventually, the “organizers” show up and add too much order to a system that wants to be a balance between loose structure and otherwise chaotic ad hoc interplay.

And if the organizers aren’t the ones that over constrain the system, there’s always a PM somewhere looking to “monetize that asset.”

I think, sadly, SO has passed that inflection point now. I haven’t intuited where the next waves are breaking at.



sounds like the downfall of Quora. Interviewed there and it seemed like they're still on board thinking a flood of ads is the perfect UX


I still don't understand why the Quora UI shows you unrelated answers, and it's always a weird topic.

"Question: Why did PyTorch beat Tensorflow in popularity"

"Answer (to a different question): I lost my virginity when I was 11 years old"



quite similar to "Mop Theory" -- https://meaningness.com/geeks-mops-sociopaths


I love the modesty in this story, from my point of view you: - Became an expert in HTML Canvas - Used that expertise to help a bunch of people - Wrote an entire freaking book on HTML Canvas

If I did that I would probably never shut up about it, so hearing you describe it as "answering some SO questions" is genuinely heartwarming.



Similar experience for me, I was active answering questions about Qt (and asking plenty as well) and got approached through to go work at a startup building 3D printers with bespoke software. Took it, had a great time, learnt a huge amount outside of my skillset and got to go do the CES experience.


how has your life worked out not having taken that offer?


Well I'm not certain about life on twin earth where I chose differently, but I'm quite happy. I still live 10 miles from where I was born in New Hampshire. I still work at the company that I interned with when I was in high school. I am now part owner.

I probably have a lot less money than if I went to California, but I have a house and family (2 children so far, we want more) and I somewhat think that if I went out west, it would be harder to have that, at least I would have probably delayed it by a decade or more, like people in cities seem to do.



You did it right. Kudos for making the smart decision -- you can't buy home.


I got a job from stackoverflow posts too, it was a company whose entire strategy was hiring "Developer Evangelists" which I had never heard of before. I tried to internalize that silly name but really the company's product just wasn't in a place to "evangelize" anyway so it didn't work for very long. I hated that job, I excluded it on my resume.


I'm in the top 250 on Stackoverflow and didn't get any job offers through there. I wasn't looking but I think I've only had one person contact me off the platform which involved finding my website and then my contact form. But they just wanted more answers.


it wasn't through there, it made a difference in the recruitment and hiring process and I had my stackoverflow badge on my resume at the time

just happenstance that somoene at that particular company was looking for it. actually was a red flag that they were, but it paid a lot more than I had ever been paid before, for those 3 months I worked there



Hah. I have my badge on my website. I'm surprised a recruiter was looking for it.


A long time ago sonos didn't support apple airplay.

I did some protocol reversing and wrote a small program that pretended to be an airplay speaker to pipe audio to a sonos speaker (archive: https://github.com/stephen/airsonos)

I ended up getting recruiting messages from both the airplay team at apple and some folks from sonos. I didn't end up taking either offer, but it was also an interesting talking point when interviewing for the job I did take.



I remember seeing this published when I worked at Sonos. In fact, I might have been the one who put it on the Slack channel.

It was a cool project at a time when a lot of people were saying it was insurmountable to make us AirPlay compatible.

Sorry you didn’t get the job. I hope you didn’t lose much sleep over it. I left in 2020. I wouldn’t say you’re missing much any more.



I read the parent comment to mean he declined the offer, not that he didn't receive it


Sorry, to be fully clear - i had an internship offer from apple that i declined, and i think i also declined to do the interview process at sonos before getting to the offer stage.


Why is that? I recently bought a Sonos after getting plenty of recommendations. Even though it sounds great, I hate that they dropped support for Google assistant. Also, the Sonos voice commands can't handle Spotify or YouTube music. Kind of sucks.


I see it as problematic as you. Have two Sonos five and two Sonos one and think about switching to another product more often. But now i‘ve already spent so much money...

However, what should be used instead? I would take the boxes from Apple, but, as far as I know, they are also quite limited (only AirPlay).

Another example of the fact that such things should rather be expanded with open standards.

From my point of view, the best strategy for Sonos would be to be as open as possible.



> I did some protocol reversing

This would make for an interesting blog post.

Could you recommended resources to learn to do the same?



I actually forgot that I did in fact write about this! https://medium.com/@stephencwan/hacking-airplay-into-sonos-9...

A bit light on the technical details perhaps, but I recall getting stuck on getting the right airplay parameters, learning how byte endianness works... happy to try to answer any other questions as best I can remember.

EDIT: Sorry, I realized that I didn't actually answer the other question. I first got interested in reversing from console hacking, specifically this talk about wii hacking: https://youtu.be/0rjaiNIc4W8 (including marcan of asahi linux fame!). Their group also had more writing at: https://fail0verflow.com/blog/. Also interesting to read about mgba emulator development: https://mgba.io/tag/debugging/, v8 internals: https://mrale.ph, react internals: https://overreacted.io/

Consuming a lot of literature on how different systems work helped me develop intuitions around how you might take something apart. Then it's a matter of trying things and banging your head against the wall a lot, e.g. at some point I was interested in how compilers worked so I tried hacking typescript syntax support into babel (circa 2017 maybe) - I got pretty far! and got a lot better sense of how compilers work.



Step 1 — study popular protocols to understand how client/server interactions typically work.

Step 2 — deploy the network appliance in question to your LAN and intercept its packets with wireshark.

Step 3 — begin inference of protocol from observed behavior and test hypothesis by sending hand-crafted payloads to the server in question.

Step 4 — rinse and repeat until assumptions are proven to be correct with a high degree of reliability.

A good way to ensure you’ve captured the major parts of the protocol is to record about 72 hours of traffic and then replay it through a proxy that directs traffic to your newly created service.

If you can interpret the vast majority of the messages without error, you’re getting close to a reliable implementation.

Step 5 — use this strategy to develop a deep understanding of both protocols in question.

Step 6 — write an “adapter” that can translate protocol A to protocol B and vice versa.

Step 7 — implement the adapter towards whatever use case you have in mind.



> Step 3 — begin inference of protocol from observed behavior and test hypothesis by sending hand-crafted payloads to the server in question.

Curious about common tactics people use for avoiding the ban-hammer from the company at this stage. Surely they can tell the difference between normal operations and this kind of hand crafted probing?



The repository https://github.com/stephen/airsonos has the code and is surprisingly accessible.


The meat for the airplay side is here: https://github.com/stephen/nodetunes

Please excuse the code quality... I think I was still learning how to write js at the time.



I’m curious, why didn’t you accept either offer? Compensation? Relocation requirements?


have you written about how you created this? very interested


So, respective teams from those two companies (or even other companies for that matter) are actively searching GH for any mods to their work?


More likely is employees use their own products and happen to see it while searching for a way to do the same thing.


In my experience it's more like people happen to stumble across your work or hear about it somehow, not a systematic search for people working on X thing.


if you use the right hashtags for the right "latest thing", VCs are actively on github

I added a discord link and they joined that too and just watch and lurk, its a weird world



You didn't miss out because Sonos continues to do an awful job software-wise. One of the things I'm most looking forward to as I de-IOT-ize my life is selling that system and running speaker wire like a true G.


The little amplifiers you can get on aliexpress and the like for about $70 can be quite good although pre-covid there were more like $35. They just have simple bluetooth and analogue in and depending on the model support 2 or 4 speakers plus 0 or 1 subwoofer.

I bought a couple and then found 2 pairs of nice second-hand bookshelf speakers. Presumably everyone is upgrading to smart speakers and dumping their old stuff because it was really easy to find great speakers for a very low price.



There's this guy in my town who is still clinging, somehow, to his life in the as a long-haired metalhead hifi bro and I cannot wait to see the look on his face when I go down there and drop a couple paychecks in his lap and say "enlighten me" ;-)


I too, would be very interestd in this.


Sorry but this sounds like LARP, who the hell wouldnt jump on a job offer from apple? Even if it doesnt work out, having Apple on your resume wouldve been an insane career booster, telling people you got an offer from them but didnt take it sounds very unbelievable, atleast personally, I wouldnt have believed you


I am genuinely unsure if this is a parody comment. I am assuming that you are fairly green behind the ears? The thing about Big Tech companies is that they hire lots of developers. That’s in large part makes them Big Tech. “Having Apple on your CV” is not as prestigious as you’re making out. It doesn’t mean you have The Knowledge that makes you a ‘10x developer’ or whatever anywhere you work. In fact, it could mean that your mind has been poisoned by a Big Tech working style, and you’ve developed a bunch of habits that aren’t nearly as applicable to most other organisations.

I say this as someone that’s never worked for any tech company anybody has heard of, nor any hip SV startup.

It takes a particular sort of person to thrive in Big Tech. That isn’t just code for ‘really really really good’. It sounds like you still believe that it is. Plenty of ‘really really really good’ people wouldn’t do well at Apple, and plenty wouldn’t want to work there. I wouldn’t necessarily call myself ‘really really really good’, but I know that I don’t want to work at Apple. Not because I think I’m not good enough, not because k don’t think that I could keep up, and not because I don’t like their output as a company.

Putting companies in a pedestal the way that you are is ultimately damaging for the industry. It fosters the increasingly cringey “get a job at FAANG!!!” culture. I’m sick of my YouTube recommendations being poisoned with “here’s how you pass a system design interview at Google” BS. I implore you to stop putting companies on a pedestal. You need only look at accountants talking about working at the ‘big 4’ to see how utterly ridiculous it can get.



From a developers perspective youre right, most of us here probably wouldnt be able to keep up with the amount of work it takes to thrive at apple, sure. Im looking at it from a future employers view, who sees "Apple", has an iPhone, and immediately has an idea in his head about what kind of developer you are, even if its completely inaccurate- Its all marketing. But also, immediately assuming youre not gonna make it at Apple because of what you heard about their work culture alone sounds like a quitter mindset. I mean at least try. If its not right, good riddance. Its not like having been there is gonna cost anything besides the time you invested.


You have a very idealized view of BigTech. You don’t work any harder at BigTech than anywhere else. I’m not saying that the work is easy and there aren’t crunch times. But if you can deal with corporate BS - something you have to deal with at large companies that pay a lot less - and you have the skillset, you don’t work any harder there than you do at most other companies.

Well Amazon is a well known shit show (been there done that)



Parent comment:

> Majority wouldn’t want to deal with bullshit at FAANG

Your comment:

> most of us here probably wouldnt be able to keep up with the amount of work it takes to thrive at apple, sure

You have some weird fetish with FAANG?



Apple recruiters have the professionalism and organizational skills of a shady manual labor staffing firm. 5 1-hour rounds, low-balled, and treated with what felt like an ad-hoc process. Wasn't impressed with the people, nor the caliber of engineering talent.

The same is true of Microsoft (Azure specifically), Google, and Amazon.

Only two "traditional" big tech companies of any note for having sharp people and all-around good vibes are Meta and Netflix. Otherwise, I'd rather go with a unicorn like Snowflake or Databricks, which feels more what software engineering was like in the aughts: exploratory, pioneering, actually building things that people haven't before, rather than gluing stuff together or being drowned in the machinations of some incompetent director.

I wouldn't make it at Apple, because I would get pissed off and quit. There's more to life than money. I don't want to work with people that see "FAANG" (or use "staffed by ex-FAANG" in their recruiting pitch) and think it's a good signal to be presenting.

Putting in a stint at any of these lower end tech companies would cost me intangibles that I'm not willing to give up at this stage of my life. Namely, my sanity, spiritual well-being, and fulfillment with life.



Good vibes at Meta? That place absolutely oozes phoney hyper-idealized cringey millennial youth culture. It feels like a cult.

I found Apple recruiters very clear and fair.



Haven't noticed it. All of the E5+s I know are real. Might just be luck and selective filtering on my end to not get involved with the... overgrown children.

Apple's recruiters were flaky on comms, rescheduled me a couple of times, and were disappointing for a company I had higher expectations for.



Meta? Out of the BigTech companies I would least want to work for are Meta and Amazon (again).


Snowflake? You mean the guys who spent 700 million to buy streamlit, a (worse than gradio) python front end.

They’re unicorns for being extremely stupid. I’ll give you that.



They're the only big company that are doing any practical development on database systems (MongoDB doesn't count; and Yandex, while fantastic, is removed from the count for being Russian, in these times).

Every company has their warts. Some warts don't matter to me.



I can’t really trust anything else you say with the absoluteness which you claim Meta is better vibes than the rest.

Sure, your experience is probably true, but it’s anecdotal and the sweeping generalizations you’re making on limited datapoints makes things untrustworthy

Second, you’re assuming money is mutually exclusive from all else at those companies. You admit not being able to get in, which makes this the equivalent of “money can’t buy happiness” from someone who never had money to know first hand that they wouldn’t be happy



Your values are likely different than mine. You cannot trust what I've written, because it goes against your values. This is fair. I write what I write to express my values, and let those of a similar mettle and spiritual composition get more usable info to navigate their careers. A good example of this is Ludicity. He has values that aren't popular on HN, but that doesn't mean what he's written is untrustworthy or wrong or that his generalizations don't "click" for people who think like them.

Here's what I value: getting shit done, being surrounded by intelligent, hard-working, and perceptive people, not being treated like a peon and gaslit to work to the bone. With that in mind, Meta and Netflix are the only ones that satisfy those conditions. Microsoft is working on some very cool stuff, but those are all in their research orgs, while the rest are effectively the same people that would work at Intel: lifers. Not even coasters, but people who don't care that much at all about tech, and are putting in their hours and moving on with their lives. Nothing wrong with that if that's your value system, but it's not mine. Amazon is a neo-feudalist code mill, no different than Infosys. The people there are better than most devs out in the wild, but that's not a high bar. Google lost its touch when Sundar hopped in around 2015. It's not cool. And Apple I've already lambasted. Netflix's and Meta's engineering cultures are great; I like the people; and I like how none of the people I know there are stressed to the core. Though the problems they're working on aren't interesting to me.

I never admitted to not getting in, that's a conclusion you made yourself. I received offers from all of these companies at various points, but chose not to accept.



> who the hell wouldnt jump on a job offer from apple?

Lots of people, including me.



Lots of people love being contrarian in theory. If it happened to you for real, no chance youre gonna say no to that


Not everyone shares your goals or values.

I've used Apple products for years and generally like them a lot as a company, but I have no interest in working for them or any other large US tech company.

The money is good, of course, but the quality of life sacrifices aren't worth it (for me).

That's not contrarianism. That's understanding what matters to me.



fair enough


Move to California, go back to an office for 60 hours a week, sign my life away and swear to secrecy about my thrilling position on some compiler team? Yeah I think could say no to that.


compiler enthusiasts catching stays:(


> thrilling position on some compiler team

What’s wrong with compilers?



Nothing I'd love to work on that sort of thing. The point wasn't that the kind of job is bad, but that even if you're working on stuff that shouldn't be secret, you still have to jump through all those hoops.

And imagine how many middle-managers they have who think a) they're the next Steve Jobs, and b) that what drove his success was being a dick to his workmates.



amen. the worst thing about STEM, IMO, is STEM people.

yeah I mean you



My biggest motivator not to work for apple is this post from Bret Victor: http://worrydream.com/#!/Apple


There are literally hundreds of thousands of software engineers employed at companies that are of similar prestige and pay as Apple, and many of them will be on HN. If you're getting paid $500k at Netflix/Google/Meta, why work for $400k at Apple?


Uhh no, have you ever dug into compensation that most companies that post on HN are offering? They are offering regular old CRUD enterprise level compensation and “equity” that probably won’t be worth anything


Sure, but that has nothing to do with what I said. There will be many HN users who are earning as much or more as Apple engineers, even if many are earning much less, so assuming that someone here would definitely jump at an Apple offer is not particularly reasonable.


Would you say the majority of people who claim to be contrarian aren’t actual contrarians, in your experience? I’m not sure you can infer this in general.


I had a much longer reply. But just read the story of the Mexican fisherman

https://bemorewithless.com/the-story-of-the-mexican-fisherma...

On a personal level, this is my life now.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36767599

Do you really think I would give this up in exchange for more money and more stress?



> If it happened to you for real, no chance youre gonna say no to that

100% guarantee I would



Not everyone on this site is a student with nothing on their resume.


Interesting projection, but to respond to your point: anyone could just put in a decade at Averagecorp inc. or even just hop around and throw together a decent resume. If a random OSS side project lands you an offer from apple thats gotta be jackpot level luck.


I'm now with the sibling commenter in that I can't tell if this a troll account.

In case it's not, there's an extension of Cunningham's law. If you're wrong and disagreeable to a sufficiently high degree, people will just ignore or quietly ridicule you rather than try and correct you.



apple has the best marketing bots in the world.


Getting a developer job at Apple or other big Tech company isn’t a particularly difficult hurdle. If that’s a personal goal of yours treat it like trying to get into a specific college and set yourself up for success. You may not have great odds applying today, but there’s many options for improving your chances with some effort.


Not really. I have someone reach out every couple months because they saw something I worked on that relates to the technology that team is using. If you take a framework and do something cool with it, and the people who work on it find out about it (say, because someone spotted it on social media) they will often look to see if they can hire you. If you want to improve your chances, pick a technology few people are using and make something cool with that: there’s a lot of people who are experts on UIKit but very few who understand how AirPlay works. To get scouted for the former you have to be really, really interesting.


Not if Averagecorp inc. pays as much, if not more, than Apple or has better working conditions.

Do you seriously think someone cares if you work at FAANG outside of those student groups on Reddit?



I wouldn’t accept an offer from Apple if given one because I wouldn’t want to relocate and I really don’t have any interest working for any large company at this point in my life.

Heck, I never wanted to work at a large company. A chance to work remotely at AWS ProServe more or less fell into my lap and from the minute I got there I knew I didn’t want to be there more than four years.

More realistically from my connections and experience I would have a better chance working in the consulting division at GCP (full time position). I wouldn’t work there either even though it would probably pay close to $100K more than I make now.



I have the one-time biggest computer company, I guess the Apple of it's time, on my CV, and was pretty good (still am, I think!). Currently out of work. Such things are not the panacea you make it seem.


Not everyone is willing to uproot their life on a whim, even for a theoretically great job and a theoretically great company.


Im sure "uproot your life and dedicate it to Apple" isnt on the job description and apple is very flexible with this stuff. You think all 164,000 apple employees live in silicon valley?


Apple is definitely not “very flexible with this stuff”.


Apple has many large offices outside of silicon valley.


Apple logistical hubs for shipping and rando 3rd party acquisitions are one thing, but if you're working on a main-effort product you're either in Austin or SV.

You're doing RTO, and you're signing NDAs out the wazoo.

Helluva opportunity if you're young, but I'm in agreement with the parent posters that it's not the end-all, be-all. I'm far enough along in my career that I don't need the prestige line on my resume, and 100% remote somewhere I want to live is worth far, far more to me.



But they don't do the same thing in every office location. Certain offices are only niche locations stemming from the other HW companies they acquired over the years. Apple si super diverse with what it does.

So depending on what job you'll want to do at Apple you might have to relocate.



I would never work for Apple, they are an extremely user-hostile company who bankrolls off of child labor in impoverished countries.


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