We may be close to saturating the market for the former group.

Another factor that could be at play is that all the non-Tesla EV makers have recently announced they will switch their chargers to NACS, but this will take a couple of years to roll out, so it’s not a great time to buy a non-Tesla since it already has legacy charging hardware.

I'm going on vacation next week, driving with 2 young children. It'll be about a 11 hour drive which is not crazy for a US vacation. I don't want to plan where I stop and stop for 45 minutes to fuel up with 2 toddlers in the car.

And they're all much more expensive than a nice 5 year old gas car.

Refuelling the Rav4 is an errand that takes time, planning, and mental energy. For my wife it's also a low-level danger: women find gas stations spooky, apparently.

Refuelling the Tesla is automatic and effortless. After you park at home, if the charge is

Road trips with the Tesla, however, are currently impractical: we end up adding another ~30% to the drive time. With only a ~220 mile range the Tesla needs to stop about every 150 miles for 40 minutes which is brutal. Range anxiety also becomes a much bigger factor driving through more rural areas and your route choices weigh supercharger locations above everything else.

We've got used to the self driving convenience of the Tesla but the Comma[1] on our Rav4 is just about as good for highway driving.

1. https://comma.ai/

You really should never be charging past 70% (the exception being before climbing in sub freezing temps in the sierras) on road trips and instead plan to make much shorter charging stops more often. I’m normally out of a supercharger in 15-20 min if I precondition the battery before charging and it’s about the time my wife needs to stop for a pee break anyways so it’s kinda great to stop. Use the restroom and be ready to go again. If you are charging 45 min you are doing it so wrong.

Give me 500 miles of realistic range and a 10 minute full-tank "fill-up" in an EV and I'll consider it. Until then, it's simply not going to happen for me.

you're free to describe gassing up as this arduous event that takes all this time, planning, and mental energy, but that doesn't make it true, and while your wife may have anxiety around gas stations, most women don't unless they're gassing up in a strange place late at night. It's generally a non-issue.

You can be pro-EV without trying so hard to vilify gas.

try again.

I have never seen anyone say fueling a gas car needs planning and mental energy. Unless the first car you ever drove was an EV, it is hard to believe that it NOT almost a second nature to drive to a nearest gas station as soon as your car beeps about remaining mile range. This is greenwashing at its finest.

I also live in an urban area that seems to have fewer pumps per capita than other urban areas I've visited. This results in lines at the pump, which are exacerbated by automakers not standardizing on which side of the car to place the fuel filler. So cars end up queuing up from two different directions for the pump - and I've seen fights break out over people believing other drivers had cut in front of them at the pump.

Let's not even talk about trying to get gas during rush hour when getting in and out of the station may be problematic and exacerbates all the other problems noted above. So you go home to wait out the traffic but you still have to go back out on a separate trip just to get gas.

So yeah, that requires planning and mental energy. I'd love to get an EV and just come home and plug it in and not worry about it.

For the 2-3 long trips I take per year, I rent a car anyway. That way I upgrade to a nicer, bigger car than I drive on a day-to-day basis, I don't have to worry about breaking down on the trip, and if I do end up buying an EV, I don't have to worry about charging on a trip. It's the way to go.

It turns out, even 10-30 seconds during a commute matters to people. I've personally met people who don't like using a particular station that is basically within a subdivision. Why? Because like most drivers, they fuel up more often on the commute home than out, and this station requires turning left onto a residential street.

It is a small annoyance, but it really is nice not having an annoyance. :)

This is a big reason I haven't even considered an EV. How I'd find someone to do this work on my garage, and how much it would cost is a huge unknown, and that's just enough friction to simply not consider getting an EV.

My vehicles are first and foremost utilitarian; I use them to get from A to B. EVs make that simple equation "complicated", and I have other issues maintaining a household that demand my attention.

At my current place I'm just using an extension cord to my outdoor outlet and I give it the 1500 watt option. You can even cut that in half if you don't want the "my this cord is warm.." effect.

In the end, the slower charge is the better charge, so my laziness has been winning. I don't see installing a 230vac socket any time soon given how well it's been working.

I've got an older phev that originally only got 14 miles of pure electric @ up to 79 mph, it's battery is down to about 9 miles expected. And that isn't a lot, but it is enough for 90% of my trips around town. Where you REALLY see this working well is if you have to go out every day to pick something or someone up locally. The amount of fuel burned on warmup cycles and local trips is not insubstantial.

The gas tank needle just LOVES to move with every small trip otherwise.

I sometimes go months without buying gas using that tiny miniscule range.

is it cheaper paying the electricity for charging? I can't imagine it is, but while everyone talks about things like only having to gas up once every 4 months now, it's not as if the electricity comes for free.

Compared to a gas car that can get 40 mpg on the highway this works out to: 40 mpg == 1 gallon == ~$2.85 (current price here) == 0.07125/mile EV == .360 * .15 == .054/mile

Of course, if you have time of use rates, you might pay half that for the EV. If you drive in town, your efficiency might be more like 270wh/mile too.

Similarly, that MPG is... very arbitrary. But the bottom line is that most people are getting a significantly lower $/mile purely on energy usage.

Gasoline is very expensive. If it wasn't so expensive, we'd burn it to make electricity.

A base Tesla 3 is 70kWh * 5¢/kWh (my Toronto overnight rate) is ~$3.50 CAD for ~400km range. Gas in my Volvo C30 would be 400km * 8l/100km * $1/l = $32 CAD.

If you drive every day, a plugin-electric can save you a LOT of money. And that's before the savings in oil, brakes, and other maintenance.

I'm stuck with street parking, so it is much less appealing to me.

My understanding is that this is largely a myth, at least with modern BEVs with intercooled battery packs. My understanding is that modern battery packs can Level 2 charge with no additional degradation, because they don't get any hotter than during a Level 1 charge.

Level 3 charging is different, but even then, the degradation in battery life isn't as much as you think -- I've heard numbers as low as just 3% faster degradation.

I actually do that with my phone- I use a fast charger with a peltier cooler, that can rapidly charge the phone while keeping it cold. Family/friends think I'm crazy for caring about it, lol

Car dealerships will sell the hookups and have connections with local companies who will install for you. No effort required on your part .

This is all moot. Sodium ion and lfp and newer battery techs will increase range and drop the initial purchase price of EVs under what an ICE can compete with

Some snap in time clickbait article won't change the technological tsunami. Even if the US drags it's feet, the rest of the world will eagerly adopt them. EVs promise energy independent and cheap transport combined with wind / solar.

Every automaker knows this to differing levels of organizational denial, but they all feel it coming.

Is there something about that RAv4 vehicle that makes fueling difficult? I have a Lexus, generally it tells me “hey! I’m low on fuel” so I stop at the next convenient gas station I see, fill it with gas in about 5 mins, and I am back on my way to wherever. Sometimes when I am feeling particularly rebellious, I happen to be driving by a gas station even before the car is low on fuel, and I stop and top it off in a few minutes and then am on my way to wherever.

Also, sometimes I’m driving and want a cup of coffee and stop at a coffee shop too…

If you ask my Eastern Europe wife, that's pretty much the way she needs to road trip lol. I think if we get it to 3hrs / 15 minutes break it would be perfect. 240km/40 minutes is a bit of a reach.

Any time i'm road tripping more than 3 hours i'm trying to find some cute little town along the way to stop in at. Usually these cute little towns have chargers.

Depending on your mileage, by saving $3k-$4k a year on gas theres certainly a case to be made for an EV being a more sensible financial decision in the long term especially given government tax incentives

One of the biggest reason for the massive disparity in efficiency on EV's is due to regenerative braking (16-25%). So what's interesting is when you compare an EV to a Hybrid ICE vehicle then the efficiency disparity becomes a lot less and you still have the benefit of being able to take long trips and not needing a home charger.

Anyone thats driven a Hybrid Toyota will tell you that fuel consumption is dramatically less, in my real world scenarios I use about 2.5x less gas in something like a Toyota Corolla Cross compared to my not overly thirsty ICE BMW.

Another benefit to Hybrids is they only require a ~1kWh battery instead of needing a huge 60-70kWh battery like an EV. So you could create 60 or 70 hybrid vehicles for the same amount of lithium mining as one EV.

One has to wonder why the governments aren't just pushing everyone into Hybrids instead of EV's? If a young person was asking me to recommend a car and they didn't have a home charger I wouldn't hesitate to recommend something like a new Toyota HEV / Honda e:hev - they are basically an EV with an on-board Atkinson engine as a powerplant.

This is a pretty weak main benefit as ICE cars are already cheap to run. At 12k miles/year, 30 MPG, and $3.20/gallon you are only talking $1300/year in fuel.

According to AAA, taking fuel, maintenance, repair, and tires into account someone driving 15k miles a year would only save $330. Given the cost premium on an EV over a comparable ICE car, I’m not sure you would ever come out ahead, although the cost gap is admittedly shrinking.

While it's a bit dated, you can see the parts with the cost difference and the "if gas was this much".

You can see some things like the Honda Insight (hybrid) has a slightly lower 5 year cost of ownership than the Honda Fit (ICE).

It would be curious to do an update of that part of the chart for current models.

Once you see folks replacing their beat-up 1992 Honda Civic with EVs then you'll know that "they save you money" is actually a thing.

Which is to say I do know people who complain about gas prices on their luxury cars.

Best case comparison there is a $10,070 difference between the Camry and a Tesla.

$10k is a LOT of money to average Americans living paycheck to paycheck. In percentages that's 38% more than the Camry! That's before considering larger loan balances to pay 7% on, since the poor average American won't have that kind of cash. This is almost on par with saying that Whole Foods is the same price as H-E-B or Kroger!

I rented a Tesla Model 3 recently. From 40% to 98% cost me $7 CAD and I was able to drive from Vancouver to Tacoma, WA on a single charge and arrived with 20% battery. In the Seattle suburbs it cost a bit more, $13 USD, to go from 20% to 90% due to a supercharger station having issues so demand was higher at the next closest one.

$7 to go 175mi(283km) sold me on an EV as my next car. I never felt like I would be stranded and when the battery is conditioned for fast charging by time you pop in somewhere to use the bathroom and grab a coffee or snacks you're pretty much good to go.

I really think these comments are just EV driver rationalization. You really spend 30-45 minutes at a rest stop on road trips? When we take road trips we spend almost no time stopped. Even if we're eating, it's in the car. I can't even imagine stopping multiple times for 30-45 minutes to recharge, that is not the same as "going to the bathroom and grabbing a snack". That takes like 5 mins tops, the rest is just wasting time you could be on the road.

Sadly, it is true most non Tesla chargers are terrible and require you make an account/give up personal information first and are not maintained well. Tesla does as well but the stations are maintained and the account signup happens when you buy the car so you just plug it in and charge.

There needs to be a just a pay and fill chargers like gas pumps but that doesn’t fly with todays VC vultures.

Electrify America was built by Volkswagen as punishment for the diesel scandal. They have zero interest in maintaining them.

I'm not ready to drink the Kool-aid. Give me an 800 mile range EV. Then and only then will I not care if it takes an hour to charge to 100% because I'm unlikely to be able to drive farther than that in a day. I've had to drive nearly that distance once and it was miserable and I'll never do it again without breaking it up into overnight stays at a hotel.

Not that there aren't reasons to own one here mind you, surely a long and unwieldy commute might do it, but then you're probably in Delta or a suburb, which was my situation when I last had one; after it was crashed, I just didn't buy another and realized that I used it more because I had it rather than having it to help me go distances I'd need to anyway.

Depends what you value. For me, that's a nice to have. Greater benefits are: never go to a gas station, no oil changes, no fumes, more fun to drive.

I’d argue the opposite, but it’s certainly subjective. Driving my sister’s Model 3 was leagues below my cheap little BRZ, and it’s still slower than my motorcycles if I want to accelerate fast. The suspension is crap. Body roll was astoundingly bad and the front end doesn’t want to push you through corners when trail braking. I was excited to drive it, but after 500 miles of backroads and open freeway I firmly believe a cheap sports car is a much better driving experience.

In most developed countries, coal and oil is a small part of power generation which continues to decline.

well that depends on the ICE car and your driving behaviour. E.g. VW group turbo 4 cylinders from ~5y ago are very efficient. I drive a 5yo Seat Leon ST (basically like a slightly smaller Golf Variant, e.g. a typical European hatchback), and mostly at highway speeds with some mountain driving also. With this I get ~45-47mpg or ~5.0-5.2l/100km. A hybrid would maybe get me up to 50mpg but not much more, as highway speeds are not really where they gain you much. They're great for the occasional shopping run, but where I live those are max. 20min driving both ways, so not that much of an impact either.

At some point it becomes bike shedding, but a 20% reduction (from 5l to 4l) is still impressive to me.

To be fair I am mostly on rural roads (70-100 km/h) during my commute. But if I am not doing WFH I M doing 100km per day and with our family car that equated to >10€ Gas per day.

So getting a used car with great milage was a reasonable decision to me.

Full EVs are for some selected few... Here in Germany it's just homeowners with PV already installed. I did the math before deciding on the hybrid and literally everybody else is paying more for electricity (at 0.4€/kWh) and is producing more CO2 (at avg. 400g/kWh).

I really pity the guys in their Dacia Spring SUVs in the supermarket parking lots (at 0.6€/kWh) who bought a EV to "do the right thing" here.

(That said, that's a problem very unique to Germany ... Most countries around us have cheaper electricity and a smaller CO2 footprint per kWh.)

Our utility offers very cheap prices at night, so our Tesla 3 costs $2.25 to fully charge vs. $55-70 for our Forester.

Also, maintenance is cheaper on EVs.

It's not that simple because "full" means something very different in a Cybertruck (123kWh battery) vs a base Ioniq 6 (53kWh battery).

Likewise the fuel economy is dramatically different with the Cybertruck at 2 miles/kWh Vs the Ioniq 6 at 4.6 miles/kWh.

Assuming a cheap electricity rate of $.15/kWh, the Cybertruck will cost $.07/mile to drive.

The Ioniq will cost $.03/mile.

The regular hybrid Prius gets 56 mpg. At the cheapest current (i.e. Texas) gas price of $3/gallon, it would cost $.05/mile to operate.

It will be far less performant than either the Cybertruck or the Ioniq 6, though.

> One of the biggest reason for the massive disparity in efficiency on EV's is due to regenerative braking (16-25%). So what's interesting is when you compare an EV to a Hybrid ICE vehicle then the efficiency disparity becomes a lot less and you still have the benefit of being able to take long trips and not needing a home charger.

The disparity is still around 28%, which when talking about efficiency is pretty big.

> Another benefit to Hybrids is they only require a ~1kWh battery instead of needing a huge 60-70kWh battery like an EV. So you could create 60 or 70 hybrid vehicles for the same amount of lithium mining as one EV. > One has to wonder why the governments aren't just pushing everyone into Hybrids instead of EV's?

We aren't lithium constrained, we are battery manufacturing capacity constrained. One goal of the IRA (and its EV incentives) is stimulating the build-out of a domestic battery manufacturing supply chain. That battery production capacity is a strategic asset, not just for cars, but also for stationary storage. It's a win-win for energy security and decarbonization.

There are also plugin hybrids that use smaller batteries, but let you use either/both electricity and gasoline (albeit with an efficiency penalty on both drivetrains).

Also, 67% of Americans live in single family homes (mostly suburbia), many with an electrical outlet near their parking spot that they can use to charge their cars. These are also the people who drive the most on a per capita basis.

> If a young person was asking me to recommend a car and they didn't have a home charger I wouldn't hesitate to recommend something like a new Toyota HEV / Honda e:hev - they are basically an EV with an on-board Atkinson engine as a powerplant.

Depends on the young person. For one thing, I wouldn't recommend that any young person buy a new car unless they are very financially comfortable. But if you don't have a home charger (or nearby DC fast charging) it's not a matter of a recommendation, but rather a physical requirement to get an ICE car, so it might as well be a hybrid.

Then sub the F150 Lightning or the Rivian and you'll get basically the same numbers.

> and that has at best a tiny niche market (man children living their boyhood dreams of driving a Transformer)

I agree with the customer characterization (although I suspect that number of such people out there is higher) and from an efficiency perspective it's just as bad as it's more conventional looking EV truck competitors.

https://www.freedomsphoenix.com/News/208891-2016-12-14-darpa...

Remember to factor in the supply chain, and shipping costs.

Otherwise we are just shifting where the pollution is happening.

I don’t understand why this simple physical problem of absorbing more infrared radiation has become confused with class warfare. I don’t think the US manufactured batteries are more tied up in child,labor than like regular clothes and chocolate, and ending child labor across the globe is mostly independent of how we power transportation and energy.

There is a lot of greenwashing, but actually converting sectors of the economy to non-fossil fuel is not an example of that.

The only actual negative I have is that chargers aren't as present in remote locations and if it's not a Tesla charger, it's not real. Also when towing a camper uphill to Yosemite, it was stressful but we made it on top.

The infrastructure will improve and will expand to keep up, but it is one of the teething issues that is slowing mass adoption.

I prefer stopping every four hours, and making the stop take less than 10 minutes. Having my EV is very much worth it overall, but it _is_ annoying to add more than an hour for every eight hours of driving.

The most priceless thing though is safety for your family. I read about accidents people had in their nice 5 year old gas cars, and it’s just sad to me that they didn’t see the options for what they were, and could have easily afforded a much safer car, but instead based their choices on bad information about supposed long charging times and supposed long lines at chargers.

Huh? On what basis do you believe EVs on the market today are safer than their ICE counterparts?

https://www.iihs.org/ratings/top-safety-picks

https://www.thestar.com.my/tech/tech-news/2024/01/02/unusual...

> “This was a first for Autauga County,” the fire department wrote. “Electric vehicle fires are unusual and present unique challenges and dangers to firefighters.” The smoke from these types of fires contains toxic gases such as hydrogen fluoride and hydrogen chloride, officials said. The batteries can also reignite even after they blaze has been put out, the fire department added.

"I read about accidents people had in their nice 5 year old gas cars" So the question becomes why is "I've read about" a valid response and how does it stand up against "I read about how dangerous EVs are in a random article somewhere online sometime"?

"I read about" is only part of my response, and the rest of my response speaks for itself. One does have to poke beyond what one reads.

Poke beyond the dramatic headlines and you see that if EV batteries ever burn, which they usually don't even in accidents, they always make the news, but they burn slowly, giving occupants ample time to get away assuming they avail themselves of the easily grasped and intuitively placed manual door releases.

"one has to poke" definitely... which is why the "i read" line really stands out as a limited comment which I am poking at. The notion that EVs are "better" is an interesting view considering the cost to make, the dangers and the waste left behind.

Most EVs are just unproven in my opinion. Just because it says Mercedes, nice test drive I don’t want to be their EV Guinea pig in terms of long term ownership. Companies like Rivian, cool but way too new for me to even blink an eye at. This basically left me with Tesla as an only option. If you do any research at all you’ll hear/see how hit and miss their build quality is. Seems worse on certain models, but ultimately I also know too much about Musk’s management style and it does the opposite of instilling confidence in the product. I also happen to just not “like” the interior/dash setup. So, I just felt like I was sacrificing /risking too much with EV. The other issue in some cases, the EV has been announced with a release date and accepting deposits but I couldn’t actually purchase one like I needed/wanted too; Too much friction in 2023.

I ended up in a Lexus. Basically the luxury Toyota. So i essentially kept my purchasing behavior unchanged due to not finding any compelling EV, but i kicked some EV tires.

Toyota and Lexus are hard to beat.

With fast charging you typically only stop for 15-25 minutes, the infotainment or app does the planning for you, and the frequency you'll have to stop at matches the natural frequency people typically need to stop anyways by design.

I can see how EV cars are good options for people who live in the city and only go grocery shopping, but for people who have family scattered around the country / continent with young children or babies, it sounds extremely inconvenient.

And you bring this up as an advantage of EVs, it's mind blowing.

Sure, if EVs work out for you, that's awesome, but let's not pretend that the 20 minutes wait time cannot be a disadvantage for some people.

There's a local DCFC that's really fast to 80%, and a fair amount of 5-7kw chargers that are SUPER cheap at places I go near.

I've learned to just live more slowly because of it and I'm ok with that. I drive slower and safer, I know when I need to charge might be a good time to take a walk or grocery shop or something, and I just kind of plan around that.

Heck, sometimes I sit there and read a book in peace and quiet. I can't speak for people who have kids; I might not want to deal with that, but as a married adult without kids I'm totally fine.

Personally I want 3 days for a trip like that.

This isn’t really an EV topic but a philosophy of life topic: do you plan to have a relaxed time or do you push thru to minimize your metrics. Funny these people seem to end up in couples.

Tho, on the EV topic, my son now borrows the Tesla for roads trips and has discovered that long trips are faster going 65 than 75 or 80 or whatever he was doing because the increased efficiency cuts down on total charge time. He has been showing up to places early. It’s weird.

And what if, unlike you, I can manage to sit down for more than 2-3 hours?

The mental gymnastics are so weird to read. It's like .. for a horrible analogy, you're trying to defend a power drill which no longer drills, by saying "well hey, it works just fine, as long as you want to use it as a hammer and not as a drill, and hey, having to rotate it manually to actually screw something in is actually a good thing because it's good exercise".

It never made sense before because I didn't have anywhere to plug an EV in nor did I want the hassle of street parking two vehicles. I have a 4x4 for offroading, mountain biking, and other weekend trips but getting around town on bike/foot/transit was faster day to day.

Now that I have a house and land getting an EV as a daily driver for the 20 to 100 mile round trips I take into town/the city actually makes sense since I have plenty of space to keep multiple cars, can install the necessary charging (and solar) equipment, and don't want to die riding my bicycle on unlit country roads.

Sure, if you need to charge exactly when your family gets hungry or tired and you happen to be exactly at a Supercharger, and the restaurant is exactly the kind of restaurant you like, it's not worse (but not better either) than traditional cars. If any of those conditions are not met, it's now an inconvenience charging your car.

In my experience (Europe), you can't really drive longer than 10 minutes without passing by a petrol station, and you can put gas in your car, pay, and leave easily under five minutes. Then, if everyone in the car feels like it, you can drive again for hours. If someone wants to eat, you can look up which restaurant you want to go to, and stop there. Eat your sandwiches at the top of the mountain while the sun is shining! Or pick anything else you want, Thai, local, Burger King, or get some snacks at a supermarket. ! I can decide which restaurant I go to or where I take my 30 min break, and it is not decided for me by the charger network.

I don’t have an EV, but do drive long distances a lot. I regularly drive for six hours without stopping. I have been scoping out the feasibility of getting an EV and it seems that the Long Range style vehicles would just almost fit into my traveling without any disruption.

To each their own.

i'm sure happy path traveling is great, but it becomes stressful as hell very quickly

"I did a long trip no problem", you say.

Would that have been as pleasant if 10x the number of electric cars were on the road? If you had to wait 45 minutes for a charger to become available due to demand? I doubt it. I have an EV (not a Tesla, one on the CHAdeMO standard) and I love, love, love it for driving around the city, but I don't dare take it on longer trips. Even doing a lot of driving in a single day is dicey in the winter.

Until the charging network is as ubiquitous and reliable as gasoline pumps, EV's will remain a niche.

https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=5335.0

(I once paid close to $10 USD / gallon (after converting from cpl) diving from Banff to Jasper at a station that had 4 pumps and on that day, a 10 minute wait to get to one of the pumps)

> the road, at the beginning, should be signed with "speed limit enforced by unmarked frost heaves".

Get real and get new material.

I also have some times where I have to drive 10.2 hours(730 miles one way) almost non-stop. When I have to do something like that, I want to drive. Not stop and wait.

The Tesla trip planner with the Model 3 Long Range edition for that drive show it will take 13h for the same drive so about 28% longer with 4 stops @ 30min each.

Realize that people have different use cases.

if you want to buy an EV for the environment, great, more power to you, but stop trying to convince people that it's reasonable to sit and wait 45 minutes every few hours. You may find that acceptable but many of us don't.

I do find it would be reasonable to pass laws to force you to switch to an EV even if it causes you some inconvenience, so that the likely future of my children and their peers is better.

That's not "more like 15 minutes."

I would assume their trip planner is already calculating the optimal balance of speed and charge.

>I do find it would be reasonable to pass laws to force you to switch to an EV even if it causes you some inconvenience, so that the likely future of my children and their peers is better.

I am glad that you are willing to restrict the ability of people to live their lives because it won't have an inverse impact to you.

This thread started with the parent belittling someone else for not having the same use case. It is a shame that it has continued in that direction rather than explore ways to capture all use cases.

If you haven’t tried it, I don’t think the idea that the route planning software gives does not reflect the actual experience, at least my experiences. Now I am not a hardcore stay in the car ten hours driver so YMMV.

The technology is getting rapidly better, all the use cases will be addressed before the fleet turns over. I had a leased Leaf in 2016 which was a lot worse than the used Model 3 I picked up in 2020, and the options I expect to have if I buy again seem to all be better each year. So far tho, the Leaf was destroyed in a pretty small fender bender, the Model 3 is holding up well.

of course you do, because fuck poor people.

I have ridden in cabs that were owner operated that were electric already. TCO was better for the owner despite their great cost consciousness. And a lot of poorer people drive very efficient cars, it’s the rich that tend to be the “showy wasters of resources, screw every one else” folks.

you're mistaking lower middle class for poor.

poor people drive whatever the hell they can afford and EV's, and their subsequent maintenance costs, aint that.

28% more is significant and just understand that we are not just talking about time spent. You factor that into my trip and suddenly I am awake for 2 more hours, more chance of a crash. Multiply that across the population and see what that does to death rates.

Now they are older and we travel more in the day but it is around 4 hours and have to schedule a meal.

Even so, as we both know, it's unlikely to reach 15 minutes as discussed else-thread, and while I do need breaks on a trip, 15 minutes is about the maximum I want to take unless I'm eating.

For a typical family-hauler that's be used on road trips like a Honda Odyssey, 16-20 gallons is totally common.

How often do you do this? Once, maybe twice a year? With my current commute i have to go out of my way to get gas every week. It takes at least 15 minutes extra on my way home (but thats only because the gas station on the route is about $1 a gallon more). i'd be prepared to add an hour twice a year in return for getting 15 minutes back 48 times a year. And the annoyance of having to make an unexpected trip when i was planning to get gas the next day (whereas i could keep an EV charged abouve 50% at all times).

Get it through your heads, the frequency is irrelevant. We have this feature now with ICEs..and EVs do not. Some people will choose to stick with ICEs until such time that they reach parity in this department.

Any trip within a 3 hour drive is possible round trip on a single charge. Any trip within a 5 hour drive is possible with no stops and destination charging, actually saving a stop.

Any trip over a 5 hour drive generally takes less time and costs less to fly (I'm sure with many edge cases around rural destinations). Even on long road trips, charging from 20-80% takes 15-20 minutes and most drivers will at least need a bathroom break every 3-4 hours.

New Tesla Model 3 prices are comparable to entry level sedans like the Civic and Camry. Used Chevy Bolt's are abundant at

I was with you until this. This is provably false just by going to the tesla and toyota websites.

2024 Camry XLE with Nav and Cold Weather - $36,965

Tesla Model 3 - $38,990 - without any credits or subsidies.

But worth noting two things - first, there may be significant State tax credits for buying a Model 3, and the base Model 3 currently doesn’t qualify for the $7,500 Federal subsidy, only as of 12/31/23.

In other words, last week the base Model 3 was at least $7,500 cheaper than $38,990.

According to their US websites, the 2024 Camry starts at $26,420. The Model 3 starts at $46500 (not including the $7500 rebate).

Camry does have a lower end “LE” trim with cloth seats, 4.2” screen in center console, and also missing all of the following; navigation, sun/moon roof, heated seats & mirrors, smart key, driver assist / blind spot monitoring, memory seats, and power passenger seat… for $27,215.

The XLE trim is still lacking many Tesla features, but it’s at least somewhat more comparable to a base Model 3.

But still truly notable that 3 days ago the Tesla Model 3 was cheaper after tax credits in many states even than the starting base price of a Camry.

Hopefully the Model 3 battery sourcing can adapt to the changing tax credit regulations to have their base trim qualify again for the Federal credit. Currently only the Performance trim qualifies, which is funny in that it makes the Performance cheaper than the lower-spec’d Long Range.

So an EV is more convenient than a gas car for daily commutes because you never have to go to a gas station. For the rare times you go on a long trip, you just take the gas car or you put up with having a longer trip in the EV.

I was curious so looked this up. Not sure how good these stats are, but here's what I found at https://www.thezebra.com/resources/research/car-ownership-st...

The average US household owns 2.28 vehicles. 35% of US households own three or more cars. I found that interesting because almost no household that I personally know owns more than one vehicle (regardless of income level), so there may be large geographical variances here.

Also interesting is that the total number of registered vehicles in the US declined by over 25 million between 2012 and 2019. There is hope!

Growing up, getting a car was a watershed moment for me personally. It marked a transition into a new type of independence from my parents, and also the primary motivation for getting my first job. It was liberating. Out here, it's not feasible to get anywhere, really, without a car. Before getting my own car, if I needed to get somewhere, I had to convince some adult (usually my parents or a friend's parents) to take us there.

Really? Awesome! The future is bright indeed. EVs are objectively better than ICE-cars, they don't nearly trash up the city as much as ICE-cars (less noisy, less stinky, no gas stations, nothing trashes up a neighborhood than a gas station), but a lot feel like they have made strides in being safer for pedestrians, cyclists, ...

Hard to square with the overall increased aggressive vibe in overall traffic, more antisocial driving, larger cars, meaner looking cars, ...

You don't want to give yourself a blood clot on a family vacation.

Uhhhh, that's crazy to me. I don't know anyone who drives that far for a holiday, especially with kids.

It’s a two pit-stop trip now that the kids are older; it used to be 4-5 stops when they were little.

And crucially, my point is that today's kids will simply not be in a better situation. They'll have the tools of society at their hands, and in general, not much more. I don't love child labor, but I genuinely have no practical way to know if my clothing was produced via child labor. (I buy 99% of my clothing used, so hopefully that's helping) I don't have any practical way to know if my plastic recycling isn't getting dumped in the ocean in Turkey. I'd like to use less carbon, but my wife isn't willing to live with the heat set any lower than 62 F. Etc. The impacts which I can make are pretty small. Populations are rising, and technology is not the panacea some people think. Technology can improve carbon output, but everyone needs to eat and live. This will always be deleterious to the environment, and the "victim" generation will eventually grow up to be the victimizers as they have to run governments and companies.

They'll be faced with compromises they can't avoid, no matter their politics.

My wife and I own one that was very comparably equipped to a similar luxury crossover / SUV, and the type of driving we do in that car is perfectly within the capabilities of our range & charging habits. Never going to gas stations or getting the annual oil change is a nice convenient perk for us. But we fit right in this targeted demographic:

1) Can afford an expensive, new car 2) Own a home and can install an EV charger 3) Have a second ICE vehicle for long trips

However, I can't imagine many people wanting EVs who fit this criteria don't have one by now. If the manufacturers want to keep selling EVs, they'll need to figure out how to replace the 2015 Accords and Tahoes without access to charging at home.

While I agree the technology will be better and cheaper 5 years from now that will always be the case and it seems like we are past the point of exponential improvements in short periods of time. Current EVs meet or exceed my needs regarding range, reliability, and performance so I don't have a quantitative goalpost that needs to be reached anymore.

What is really pushing me over the line though is changes to the relevant financial incentives. The new income caps mean I still qualify for the $7,500 tax rebate because I took a bunch of time off work in 2023 but will no longer be eligible after this year. I can't see the technology improving so much in the next few years it outweighs that discount combined with not having to wait.

The only major thing that has really altered has been the speed of DC fast charging. Which, TBH, is something that is only used on road trips, and takes a toll on battery life if you use it frequently anyways. So while I'd love an EV with really high kW DC fast charge, it's not something I'd make as my primary concern.

FWIW, I'm in a 2017 Chevy Volt and drive it 95% electric only and have felt no real urge to upgrade. I'd love a bigger battery, and DC fast charge, I guess. But the actual electric driving experience isn't appreciably different on newer BEVs. I'll drive it into the ground for another 5 years, and then get an EV with a bigger battery.

Toyota and others have spread a bit of FUD with promises of solid state batteries and the like, but I actually think EV technology right now is pretty mature and good. What's needed is infrastructure for apartment buildings, and city streets etc. for charging and that will only happen once consumers push for it.

And, yeah, vehicle makers need to make economy-class EVs. That just hasn't happened yet in North America even though it absolutely could with battery prices being what they are now.

Do you tow anything on your long trips? Go into extremely cold environments? Go into areas with no or minimal charging infrastructure? Does the endpoint of your journey lack power outlets?

The value of my leased Volvo C40 has already fallen off a cliff and is less than my residual value. Once my lease is over there will be an NACS EX-30 that will be cheaper brand new, than what Volvo are charging for me to keep my old connector used battery car

That's a huge difference when that's the price range you're shopping, with added benefits of higher issue rates and less convenience when it comes to charging.

The Chevy Bolt MSRP is $26,500[1] (not sure where you saw 28.5) but it qualifies for the $7500 rebate. In the past that was a tax write-off and you still had to pay sticker up front but it changed this year to be a credit the IRS gives the dealer at time of purchase so the price gets immediately knocked down to $19k.[2] Requires the purchaser be under the new income cap to qualify but that includes over 90% of people.

Theres only two new cars available in 2024 under $19k, the Nissan Versa and Mitsubishi Mirage. If we look at 2023 theres also the Kia Rio. All three are out of date cars with anemic engines (the Mirage literally makes 78hp) and 0-60 times of 10 seconds or more compared to 200hp and 6.8 seconds for the Bolt. None of the base models have Apple CarPlay or Android Auto unlike the Bolt. Same for safety features/creature comforts like lane assist and adaptive cruise control.

Otherwise the next cheapest new car available is the '23 Kia Forte which is a pretty fun car (and can reach highway speed before the heat death of the universe) which is actually in a similar tier to the Bolt and similarly priced at $19.5k.[3]

Theres definitely a lot of people who EVs don't work for logistically (myself included until only very recently), and yes you could buy one of three horrifying cars I would not force on my worst enemy for less, but manufacturers know they won't sell overpriced cars so the upfront cost of an EV aligns quite well nowadays with comparable ICE vehicles.

1. https://www.chevrolet.com/electric/bolt-ev

2. https://www.kbb.com/car-news/with-tax-credit-as-down-payment...

3. https://www.carfax.com/blog/cheapest-cars

The problem in the US is that you have to have really large market share to start convincing property owners that they should install chargers. Thankfully, we are seeing this, with widespread installations at hotels this year. I'm guessing apartments won't be too far behind that in metropolitan areas.

I used to have a "second" car that was used as a commuter. It would only very rarely go on trips, and even then only up to ~300 miles.

If it had been an EV, it would likely have been more like a primary car, but the gas car would have been the backup for long trips.

55kW sounds like it uses Chademo?

It is a great vehicle.

This is what frustrates me about EV makers that aren't Tesla. They frequently half-ass their EV and then get all Surprised Pikachu when they don't sell, and then they incorrectly just say "Huh people don't actually want EVs".

I'm not trying to sound like a Tesla fanboy (I own one, but I'm not a fanboy), but the Model 3 is the standard upon which any EV is going to be compared. If you don't support 250 kW charging with at least 250 miles of range, you're making a shitty EV that nobody will want. Sure, you can probably forgo the self-driving features, and the huge touch-screen interface is a bug more than a feature, but you cannot skimp on range and charging capabilities.

Their management really could not understand the idea that the prime consumer for this would be middle-class people in suburban homes, and that they'd want to occasionally road trip their nearly $40k EV. They'd imagine only people in urban areas would want them and then imagine this huge catch-22 around urban charging. Their early forays into charging partnerships all reflected that, with chatter about building lower speed urban locations.

Reality was so much different.

Having said that, prices have come down a _lot_ since that introduction. I think there are a lot of people who'd find it usable, given prices that are lower than a Civic with the current incentives.

Personally I've only needed to fast charge twice over the past 2 years. Those were cases where I had to drive 4 hours a day.

Normally I charge with a 110 outlet at home, don't even need 220V.

For daily driving...well...I work from home, so I could certainly get away with the 110 outlet. Though when I got my car, I had a commute 30 miles each way. I could have probably still gotten away with a 110, but I got a 220 anyways. I can completely charge overnight, and that's good enough.

But like...charging time for road trips is blown way out of proportion. I've driven from Portland to Santa Clara and back. I think people hit Google Maps, it tells them a drive is 10 hours, then they hit ABRP or their Tesla's nav, and it reports 12 hours, and they think "wtf driving an EV is adding 2 hours", but they ignore the fact that the Google Maps estimate doesn't include any stopping. No restrooms, food, or gas. I found that during the entire road trip, only ~20 minutes total was spent actually just standing around waiting for the car to charge.

It turned out, he that little trip was along major interstates in California to Disneyland. They were already stopping 3 times for at least 15 minutes each in their gas car.

He still didn't want a Tesla. That's fine, of course. Horses for courses. :)

I never did figure out why he was on a Tesla owner's forum.

What do you think current ranges are? There are very few EVs available with less than 200 miles of range. The Leaf and that Mazda thing are the only ones I know of.

But reading the room leads me to believe that there are a lot of people in your target demographic who think that EVs are for city dwellers.

The biggest issues for getting from 10% to ~50% are communication, price, and availability.

- Has a 400 mile range

- Can stop anywhere and refuel in just a few minutes, including very isolated areas

- Plays all the music I want

- Hauls anything I want (ie. I don't care if I trash the interior with a pile of mulch on a plastic tarp)

- I can sleep in the back

- Fits in nicely in my lower middle class neighborhood

- Has plenty of spare parts at the junkyard if I need to repair it

On top of that, it doesn't require a #$@# subscription, doesn't force me into some plutocrat's idea of an infotainment system, isn't tracked remotely, with that data being sold to randos, and doesn't cost as much as a Master's degree. Last thing is that while EVs are probably more environmentally friendly than a new ICE car, they still don't compete with a used one from the aughts over their lifetime.