My only negative with it has been the issue specific to 11th gens where the CMOS drains and eventually dies if the laptop is left unplugged for days-to-weeks at a time.

On the whole Framework handled the issue well, there was no permanent fix without soldering or replacing the board. The company was upfront, provided support, a replacement battery, and even published a how-to on modifying the mainboard after the fact. With a start-up I was expecting some bugs. This one was irritating but not a deal breaker. I think how they handled the problem and how they've proven their commitment to upgradeability through the 12th, 13th, and Ryzen boards speaks well of the company.

While I am extremely keen on the AMD versions that have rolled out recently, I can't justify the purchase when my current FW13 still works well enough.

The FW16 probably isn't for me but I hope it's successful. I really want to see the docking station that can double as an eGPU using the FW16 discrete GPU module. There was a prototype mentioned in passing about a year ago but it's been radio silence since then. I hope the success of Framework laptops and the growing market for gaming handhelds like the Steam Deck makes the modular eGPU concept a little more reasonable. It's still incredibly niche but one can dream.

My 12th gen has issues with abysmal battery life while sleeping (not just the regular Intel 12th gen sleep complaints, but batt life varies greatly depending on which expansion cards you have on the laptop while sleeping eg USB-A vs -C). Framework has been beta testing a FW update to partially improve this since 2022 and last I checked the beta still had side effects like bricking the left USB-C ports under certain conditions.

Even though Fedora is (afaict?) the best supposed Linux distro, there's still known issues that have persisted for years like the brightness keys not working (there's technically a workaround but it breaks a different feature that I would like to use)

If the laptop as it is today meets your needs, go for it... but one shouldn't buy it assuming that known issues will be fixed later on.

As someone who had a 12th-gen mainboard and upgraded to an AMD board, and assuming you meant "supported" here, the rest of the points here are fine but this one rather explicitly is off. Ubuntu is the primary supported distro across the board: https://frame.work/linux

Fedora was recommended for AMD mainboards when Framework started shipping them, because Fedora ships newer kernels sooner, which got upstream AMD compatibility fixes out faster, which meant Fedora users could install Framework's firmware, driver, and BIOS updates sooner with fewer workarounds.

When Ubuntu 22.04.3 LTS shipped a 6.2 kernel in August, it went back in front across mainboards.

I did switch from the glossy to matte display, which was a massive improvement for use on the go.

IMHO, handling it well would mean recalling and replacing the defective mainboards (so long as they’re in warranty). They must have a ton of brand equity / good will if customers are that willing to roll up their sleeves.

Just remember, this flaw was on the one model right at the start of the company. Recalling the boards at that point (where the company probably wasn't making a profit yet) could have killed the company. Definitely not worth doing.

But short of a total recall, they did the next best thing. They released detailed instructions on how to repair a laptop while having the schematics for the laptop be open, and going out of their way to design the laptop in such a way to make repair as easy as possible, and said that self repairs would not affect any warrantees.

No other laptop manufacturer would have done that.

That's why they are seen as good in the community's eyes.

> No other laptop manufacturer would have done that. > That's why they are seen as good in the community's eyes.

Yep.

We're not aiming for _perfect_ here. Framework just has to be better than the abysmally low bar set by (almost) every other laptop maker.

Which was fine at the time, but would have preferred to just RMA the unit so I would have a working unit (we purchased to test for business use).

After two years of sporadic use, our engineer with Fedora+Framework gave it up as it started burning him (2nd degree)!

Overall, I liked the experience and the mission, but was sad we've had the experience of glitch+burning.

Yes! As another owner of the FW13, if they released some kind of external adapter for the FW16 GPU I'd definitely purchase the GPU and the adapter the day its open for sale.

Unsure how viable that would be, but it would help justify that proof of concept (imho).

Would be really cool if the GPU could serve multiple devices across generations like that somehow, eventually. Buy one FW laptop, upgrade it, use the old parts for a new handheld, use the old GPU as a dock for that handheld when you get a new one for the laptop.

I want the 16 for more screen real-estate and better gaming; I've had family notice my laptop and make positive comments, so I may pass it on when I eventually upgrade.

On a related note, I saw someone else with a Framework laptop at a coffee shop the other day here in Alaska - super cool! First time I've seen another Framework user :)

720p and games that are 12+ years old or are deliberately low poly. That's not the most ringing of endorsements.

With the greatest respect it's 2024, a laptop should be capable of 8 hours at the very minimum for a mid range model but I'm seeing a lot of people getting sub 2 hours.

The 16 ticks all the boxes for me but I've held off for now as having the possibility of worse battery life than my old 2015 mac isn't as you can imagine making for a compelling upgrade.

For Linux, when following our installation guides for power optimization, power consumption with integrated graphics should be similar.

Edit: Tom's Hardware similarly reports 9 hours on Windows (with Graphics Module installed): https://www.tomshardware.com/laptops/framework-laptop-16-rev....

As a result, its beginning to resemble a paperweight.

I'm in the same boat, looking for as light as possible with a much battery as possible, was banking on the 16 yet we get 9 hours instead of (an assumed) ~10-11, and 2.1/2.4kg.

Somehow the Thinkpad Extreme X1 and the new Zephyrus G16 have similar CPUs, dGPUs, a >90Whr battery and they weigh less than 2kg.

Where's most the weight going? Will I be able to buy a FW 16 and eliminate weight to achieve similar specs? Literally asking about using a "stripped down version".

If you want the lightest laptop with the longest battery life, you'd get a Mac. If you want the best bang for your buck go with a basic Ultrabook. If your willing to have a bit more weight, size and a bit less battery in exchange for repairability/customization, that's the niche framework fits well.

Edit: I'm running linux. I don't recall doing any battery optimization but maybe I installed or configured something a few years ago? I don't change things often.

Another edit: I just checked and I do have TLP installed!

Given LTT's review of the laptop, it may be best to wait for the 2nd revision of this which hopefully will deal with the deck flex and screen consistency issues.

It’s excellent in that I can suspend any software and have it come back to life exactly the way I expect (no small feat!) and it’s excellent that it never cooks itself when unattended in a case or bag, but it is total trash that it eats 20-30% battery a day while “off”. That’s not a bug, but expected behavior. It’s just not what I have come to expect from a modern computer, and portable Macs haven’t behaved that way since about 2005.

Macbooks are the only device I would trust to not light a bag on fire…

However, my (5+ yrs old?) T480s running linuxmint never does it (i5-8250u). YMMV

Also generally speaking more efficient laptops are cooler which is generally a quality welcome in a device sometimes used in a person’s lap.

Sure, it's the bulk of a Macbook Air, but I often leave that open, with the screen on, running VMs for work all day without it being plugged in. I expect that any time I open it, I'll have at least 30-60 minutes of use before I need to plug it in. My Framework, more often than not, tells me it's about to emergency shut down as soon as I log in.

Did you report this issue to Framework? Do other users have similar issues?

This is just the same trade off. For a given level of efficiency you could have put in a smaller battery and offset the weight of a second battery / charging brick that you would then only need when you need many hours of battery life.

> Also generally speaking more efficient laptops are cooler which is generally a quality welcome in a device sometimes used in a person’s lap.

That isn't really part of the trade off either. The faster ones generally don't have worse performance per watt -- they're often better because they have more cores with lower clock speeds. You get 100% more cores with 75% more performance for 50% more power consumption. For the same load they generate less heat. See also "race to idle".

They only generate more heat in absolute terms if you put more load on them than the slower alternative would have been able to handle.

Previous generation Macbook running the same workload last for 6+ hours.

That said, for someone who isn't going to be running every core at 100% all the time, I'd still recommend it.

Edit: Oh, and under arch with the latest kernel, I find many monitors that cannot display video output over usb-c, like the Dell U4919DW.

If you have processes pegging CPUs at 100% and you don't want them to, then use a cgroup to limit their CPU time.

Still, if your dev environment is using CPU constantly you're likely doing something inefficiently. Redis and postgres don't do much unless you ask them to, for example.

discussion: https://community.frame.work/t/simple-extra-battery-for-the-...

I now make sure to save my work and shut the laptop off completely at the end of a session.

How does the trackpad feel compared to what people are used to with Apple devices on MacOS, is it at all comparable? I remember that being my least favorite part of using Linux laptops like what System 76 would put out.

How's the device build? Plasticky? Flexing? Once again, I dreaded that about the System76 machines, which IIRC are just rebranded Clevos/Compals.

From the LTT review (note that Linus has personally invested in the company, but says he did not review the team's script) at timestamp[0]:

> The keyboard on the Framework 16 is unacceptable at this price [...] wasn't able to get up to my full typing speed in particular while doing really quick double presses due to the chassis flex, a huge disappointment compared to the keyboard on the Framework 13

> The problem is the midplate [..] with the keyboard off, you can just see how not supportive this super thin piece of metal is. Fortunately, this being a framework, disassembling only takes about a minute and we were able to chuck some thermal pads in the areas where it was squishiest, and.. holy crap, that is so much better.

> The amount that the chassis flex influences the feel of the keyboard is huge and the difference that this mod has made is night and day. With the thermal pads in there, this keyboard isn't quite on the same level of Asus or Alienware but comfortably beats MSI and Razor and bring it much more in-line with the price.

0: https://youtu.be/eUCm4wKarpQ?t=204

I followed the prompt on the website and signed up for the newsletter, but I got so much marketing spam that was totally irrelevant to my one and only question that I had to unsubscribe.

> but I got so much marketing spam that was totally irrelevant to my one and only question that I had to unsubscribe

Make sure you don't tick the "Stay up to date with Framework newsletters" checkbox, I didn't and haven't received any marketing

I’ve got the money here, had it for at least two years. I just don’t have a way to give it to Framework

> All warranty service will require a shipping address within one of the EU countries we ship to.

So if I need to warranty something, I need to figure out how to have a shipping address in, say, Germany? Easy!

Oh and if the 2.5k€ laptop gets damaged by a 3rd party shipping company, I'm on the hook for it.

Yea, I'll wait. I can't figure out why it's so hard to ship stuff within the EU. The whole purpose of the European Union is to make moving products easy inside its borders.

it's not, at least not in my experience.

Tangentially, as they are doing it already, selling _to consumers_ is quite hard. Each country has different regulation placing a lot of obligations on the seller.

IIRC they are fairly consistent across the EU (simplifying cross border commerce is one of main reasons it exists)

Such as? Just curious

That's the whole damn point of the EU.

I think there might be some regulation on having the instructions written in the native language, but that's like 100€ to a translator for an one-time job. No laptop comes with an extensive manual.

Warranty terms are EU-wide too mostly, there are some country-specific exceptions, but nothing that would require a huge legal team to handle.

https://community.frame.work/t/request-review-of-korean-belg...

(am not even Japanese, just have bad habit of using thumb clusters a lot, and this is the only layout with small space bar)

Same, the 106/109 keys JP layout is wonderful!

I use the Ro key as a quick desktop toggle (right next to PageUp on my Thinkpad keyboard) and the Yen key as a full-word erase (like Ctrl-W on bash)

The extra left and right thumbs are also extrely helpful to have Home and End in an easy-to reach position.

Another example I can think about: remap the Ro key to toggle between international layout while it's pressed, so you can switch between layouts with a key right next to the shift key.

For example, on a US/RU settting, press Ro while pressing the 6 keys to the right of Tab in a sequence and you would get ЙЦУКЕН, don't press Ro and do the same: you would get QWERTY. Mixing and matching in both upper and lowercase would be very easy.

You got an AMD option now, this is the last hurdle.

(An ergonomic and programmable keyboard ia a dream. Maybe I could mod it myself.)

I'd say "good" rather than "interesting" and yes, it is, particularly for anyone who likes dark mode.

This is an area of active development that will continue to see improvement.

At these pixel sizes (except 125%), it is irrelevant. MacOS and iPhone do exactly the same for years, and nobody was ever bothered.

> along with the performance overhead.

By the increased resolution of the framebuffer; the scaling itself is done by hardware (and here I do not mean GPU; I mean output encoder).

Oh, it does. The framebuffer is integer scaled, but the physical display has different (lower) resolution. As I wrote above, this mismatch is handled by the output encoder.

> Macs are all designed to run at 200%, though you can set it to 175% or 150%.

Macs since around 2016 ship with ~175% default.

Again, the framebuffer is integer scaled (make a screenshot and see for yourself), and then fit to the display with lower resolution.

They do not support 150% or 175% though; these numbers are never shown in UI, just some description like "more space". This is not just Apple-esque hiding of everything that might sound technical; they really do not support 150% or 175%. In reality, it is more like 177,78% or 152,38%; they get something out of it, but that is a different topic.

It is exactly the same approach that Gnome / Mutter uses for fractional scaling. Except that Mutter did the mistake with exact scales.

Edit: Looks like I found what I am looking for: https://www.electronjs.org/docs/latest/api/environment-varia....

Electron apps are still blurry though. Hmm... Also, seems like I need to expose something to Electron apps that are packaged in Flatpak. Needs more research.

The only way forward is bug the maintainers of the apps to do the right thing and support wayland properly. Electron itself does.

I’m holding out for an NVIDIA GPU, or at least some hardware to accelerate running local AI models. Do you have any expansion bay plans for that?

Do you think that you will move from batches to continuous production the next few years (I understand this is difficult logistics)? If Frameworks were available with 3 day shipping, then I would be able to recommend them to people more successfully.

Also out of interest, do you mind sharing your stance (and estimates for current and future demand) for touchscreens? Presumably you're estimating low demand for this at moment since it's not a priority. Would be great to see stats on this (since at the moment it's mostly just informal discussion / passing comments in the community/forums)

Thanks in advance. Appreciate everything you've all done.

And appreciate that any expectations for

Image: https://static.frame.work/6jh6n0jcad25finrrmx9kmv48eex

This keyboard config uses the super key.

I want sturdiness, correct performance, good repairability, great linux support. Tout le reste n'est que littérature.

EDIT: Oh I missed the smiley at the end. So I think you were not too serious about this being a dealbreaker

I didn't keep track of Framework 13s at all so I'm not sure what their shipping cadence was for pre-orders (just for comparison's sake)

(I'm curious to know but I think I'll be getting the AMD 13 anyway, upgrading from a dualcore skylake laptop should still be nice :)

13" is a great size for a truly portable use case.

When can we expect Framework to start accepting orders from India?

Q: the pictures of this case on the CoolerMaster site looks like there's a USB-C trigger to a Coaxial power connector, then another connector to the mainboard itself. Would this case work with a 20v coaxial power supply?

Q: What voltage/wattage does the Framework SFF computer need to power up?

A lot of the USB-PD power supplies only give watts, not the voltage provided. Your 60w power supply is probably either 12v/5A or 20v/3A, but the page itself doesn't say: https://frame.work/products/power-adapter

I have some 15w USB-C 5v/3A power supplies (that won't charge my Sony camera), a USB-PD battery that supposedly puts out 12v on the one USB-C port, and an Apple 30w USB-C ac adapter. My 2016 macbook charges on 5v, which is convenient. Framework forum posts indicate the laptops will charge on 5v 12v and 20v, but there was a problem with 15v.

Is it possible to remove the trackpad?

But speakers should be an area of focus.

In a normal workday, I don't hear it.

I even made the simulation of upgrading to 64gb of ram just after I bought it to prove myself that it was the right choice.

I cannot think of going back to buying something I know I'll most likely have to replace entirely after some time because it cannot be upgraded.

I had doubts about the 3:2 screen ratio but although it was unfamiliar at first I quickly realized that the extra vertical space for a 13' computer !

There hasn't been a driver or firmware update in three months.

The keyboard and trackpad are mediocre.

The fan vents are on the bottom of the computer where they're almost permanently blocked.

It's not a terrible computer, and it does have what was most important to me when I was buying (a matte 3:2 screen). But I can't recommend it to anybody.

I have the fw13 12th gen and I don't think the keyboard and trackpad are mediocre at all.

I am running the Fedora Cinnamon spin. The issue for me is that only sometimes it takes a minutes to get out of sleep after I close the lid. Apart from that it works fine, and I would recommend it.

The touchpad frequently misidentifies movement as taps, something that hasn't been a problem for me on the Macbook Pro, the X1 Carbon, or the Microsoft Surface. The keyboard keys aren't too bad, but could have a sharper inflection point in the force vs travel and also be little bit less wobbly. Neither of these are fatal flaws, but are enough, I think, to call them mediocre.

Do you also find that the computer forgets its DDR5 training pretty regularly and takes a long time to boot? For me I think it's ~1-in-10 boots.

Latest Fedora 39 kernel fixed a problem I had switching from graphics to a virtual terminal and back.

[1] https://community.frame.work/t/ortholinear-keyboard-option/3...

Even just looking at staggered keyboards hurts my hands.

The Atreus layout, while not a personal favorite (way too much chording, which I found unpleasant and uncomfortable), would seem to be pretty ideal on a laptop, though it does take up a good chunk of space.

I agree.

> the layout promotes ulnar deviation even more than does a standard keyboard

Hard disagree. You may choose to hold your wrists in such a manner that this is true, but that's on you.

I'm a touch typist, and I switched to ortho partly because it makes a lot more sense for touch typing. Touch typing is taught in columns, and when those columns are slanted like this \ there really is no justification. So ortho lets me scratch that itch to fix the keyboard.

But as you say, the cool part about framework is that everyone can customize it to their own tastes.

https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71UJ8OXnZjL._AC_SL1500_....

I think this one: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/31/Wallstre...

Curved keys are more comfortable, putting even pressure on your finger instead of high pressure in one place.

They also give tactile feedback to help center your finger on each key, making typing more accurate and faster.

https://demo.intellique.org/nextcloud/index.php/s/6jJ3r4brrj...

How far are you getting with these updates? I agree the keyboards of old are legendary, but at some point your productivity is negatively affected by legacy CPUs and related.

And the old 35W processors in some of these laptops will still deliver solid performance. The new ones will turbo higher, but throttle quicker. You get higher default clock speed and better thermals with the older processors. Of course memory bandwidth and peripheral connectivity are better with newer processors, but they're perfectly usable. If what you want to do to be productive is edit text and maybe render HTML and browse files, and your OS/IDE/browser does not place unnecessary demands on your computer, then an X201, especially modded, cannot be the blame for your lack of productivity.

https://www.xyte.ch/

I can run Slack native app and the fan doesn't kick in!

Kidding, but I have Slack running, and containers, and IDEs. Everything. My CPU is pretty decent, 64GB RAM, 2 SSDs, 1TB each. This is modded X201 from enthusiasts from China. These laptops are somewhat niche, but you can buy them.

You will run all the software you need, and even more. The only downside is battery life, I hope we'll have new types of batteries some time soon, so it won't bother me too much.

For some people laptops never have enough power and are essentially a thin client to something else.

monitor part of the case with a fold out detachable keyboard.

this is a terrible example of what I mean:

http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/userdata/images/large/PRO...

but imagine something like that with a more modern take.

EDIT: ok here it is:

http://portexa.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/FlexPAC-III-23...

look up "flexpac iii"

The current offering is missing International English ISO - Linux variant for me.

How do those Thinkpad keyboards compare to new Macbook Pro keyboards?

I've always found the Macbook Pro keyboards to be "fine," but I'm curious if I am actually missing out on a better experience.

Have you tried the previous, "butterfly" generation? It should've been criminal to ship that.

Yes, you are missing a better experience. You might try out Bluetooth X201-like keyboards built by enthusiasts from China, if you can buy them. I tried to contact with no luck though.

But it can be a good DYI project, if you have one for sale, let me know.

Here is the link https://www.taobao.com/list/item/615448425938.htm

They 3D-print the body, and use keyboards from Thinkpad laptops.

I haven't bought a (non-phone) computer made by Apple since, and due to, the MBP 2017 keyboard fiasco. It was the single most shitty and unusable keyboard I have had a displeasure working on, and I've owned some super cheap entry laptops in the past.

To say that it was crap, trash, garbage, joke, spit in consumer's face feels like a laughably low effort on expressing how useless it was. I bought this laptop as a pre-order before general availability and reported issues to Apple before all the media shitstorm began. Support reps have expressed their concerns and assured me over the phone that it has to be an isolated problem with an individual unit. I've sent the laptop for servicing within a 2 weeks since purchase. They replaced the keyboard and, for some reason, also the mainboard and screen and sent it back. Exact same issues but before I got the mostly-replaced device, issues with the butterfly keyboard already caught media attention and it was a hot topic.

I was traveling with a laptop and a mechanical Keychron keyboard, ffs. I used external keyboard during flights, at Starbucks and in other public places. Any attempt to use built-in butterfly joke of a keyboard was so frustrating that carrying an external keyboard was a reasonable trade-off.

Apple later parted ways with $50 million to settle the class-action. US-based buyers got up to $395 (I got nothing in EU) but still ended up with non-resellable devices. Jony Ive probably got a great bonus for this stunt.

I'm happy for you that you have experienced only "fine" keyboards on MBPs. Would I have enemies, I wouldn't wish the misfortune of having to use MBP 2017 on any of them.

It wakes from sleep and reconnects wifi before I'm done opening the lid, I can charge it from either side, the screen is beautiful, it's nice and lightweight, the performance and battery life are good enough that I don't think about it.

On the down side, the touchpad is a notable downgrade from the macbook I use for work, and the speakers are down-ish-firing and fairly weak. Also, twice in the ~1.5 months I've had it, it has completely frozen for about 30 seconds (even the mouse cursor didn't respond) before hitting a windows bluescreen and then rebooting. No idea what's causing that, but there is some suggestion on the forum that it's the AMD graphics drivers. However, I also have a GPD Win Mini with a similar APU and it's never once frozen like that on me.

I'm probably going to switch it to Ubuntu in the near future, so that might sidestep the freezing issue, although I expect it to eventually be sorted out either way.

But, again, overall I'm very happy with it.

The upside is that, if/when FW offers a better screen in the future (with touch?) I feel comfortable doing the swap myself.

My experience was this is only true for "s2idle" suspend but that mode causes battery drain of 30% every 8 hours which was way more than I was willing to tolerate. It's okay I guess if you're just commuting and unplugging-plugging or something. But it didn't work for me for leisure travel when I would often go 24 hours without opening my laptop.

In "deep" sleep mode (which only works with some SSDs) power drain is minimal but it takes upwards of 15 seconds to resume and reconnect to wifi. This is what I use now. I just tolerate the 15 seconds, but I wish it were as fast as a Macbook.

My SSD is a SK Hynix P41, which I believe does support the lower power states.

I previously used a Samsung 980 Pro and that did NOT work with deep sleep.