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原始链接: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43208973

这个黑客新闻线程讨论了Zelensky的白宫访问和更广泛的地缘政治影响。在特朗普领导下对美国可靠性的担忧,欧洲对更大独立的需求围绕着欧洲的需求。一些用户建议欧盟核武器和斯堪的纳维亚军事联盟。批评德国从核电上转移,而北约的经济和安全方面则进行了辩论。 讨论深入研究了美国在欧洲的影响,与俄罗斯和中国的贸易关系以及对乌克兰安全的影响。还讨论了““ wokeness”在美国外交政策,美国例外主义以及美国全球领导力的未来中的作用。过去和拟议的制裁和代理战争的有效性引起了巨大争议。最后,权衡了特朗普的支持基础的性质以及对美国威权主义的潜在危险。有人呼吁建立更多的欧洲团结和修订的全球秩序。质疑美国和乌克兰为和平而努力的重要性。


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Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting (bbc.com)
2894 points by yakkomajuri 3 days ago | hide | past | favorite | 4997 comments










If European leaders don't watch this and realise they need to take control of their own destiny they're idiots. Several European leaders visited this week bending the knee to try and stave off tariffs. Time to stand up, realise the US is no longer a reliable ally, and start building (on all fronts - military, manufacturing, tech, etc). Given the American people voted for this guy twice - the second time in spite of Jan 6th and multiple indictments against him - there's no reason to believe the next person they vote in won't be worse.


We just had the leader of a Swedish party saying that non-US nuclear armament plans are needed, this is very significant since it's been basically unthinkable to say as far back as the 1960s or so when our own nuclear program was dismantled (The program was discontinued partly due to internal pressures but also rumored longstanding US guarantees for being under a nuclear shield).


Norwegian here.

I'd openly appreciate Sweden doing a nuclear test, preferably with almost plausible deniability (like Israel).

I'd also count support for this from any of our politicians as a plus for any party in our election this fall.

We have lots of money, the Swedes has nuclear power, know how, industrial expertise and probably a few guys left that still remember last time (they could have done it a number of times) they covertly almost built a nuke.



Hey look, a NATO founding member with a backbone, congratulations!

> After yesterday's events in the White House, Haltbakk Bunkers, one of Norway's largest marine fuel companies, appears to have announced that it will no longer refuel American Navy vessels

https://bsky.app/profile/osinttechnical.bsky.social/post/3lj...



Haltbakk bunkers were also the ones that left a russian mega yacht without fuel a while ago :-)


France and the UK are the obvious candidates, as both are nuclear powers. Ideally there would be some coordination at the EU level, but really hard to see that short term.


It is not a new idea, but France would love to have others pay for their nuclear weapons, without giving up control. So yes, it will be a while to sort this out, but the box is open now. It is clear that own nukes are the only thing, the big powers respect. So many countries will pursue them now.

And building a simple nuke is not that complicated - when you have the nuclear material. Europe does.



Would Sweden want to pay for France’s nukes when the next president of France is very likely far right?


It's far from "very likely", it's split in three groups of equal size and more people will lean left than far right, especially now


It's not all "very likely" the next president of France would be far right.

The 2024 French legislative (not Presidential) snap election was Macron calling the electorate's bluff that even though they disliked low growth, carbon taxes, inflation, unemployment, immigration, they still wouldn't vote for a FN govt (in the second round; view the first round as a protest vote where some voters for FN are tactically expressing discontent with the govt).

The 2027 French presidential election is a long way away yet and Polymarket doesn't even have a prediction market open for it yet, but Oddschecker puts Le Pen as frontrunner but not "very likely"; and that's before Bayrou emerges as Macron's successor [0]. Macron stands to gain a lot of influence in Europe if he can forge a good relationship with Germany's Merz.

Anyway, obviously a European nuclear deterrent would have to firewall against any of the large member-states or their leaders going rogue. Rutte and NATO haven't commented publicly yet on Trump's recent stance. See what happens at the next G7 summit in Canada, 6/2025. And of course the Ukraine settlement and who provides security guarantees for it.

[0]: https://www.oddschecker.com/politics/european-politics/frenc...



Since sweden (and germany) might become a far right government in some years as well, I would say, this is a seperate, but related issue.

The last we want, are Nazis with nukes on top of it all.



The Nazis are in US now....


I'd argue that the Nazi with nukes may soon be the US.


Facists, not nazis.

If they don't hate Jews it isn't nazism, just ordinary facism.

Also russia already beat the us to becoming nuclear armed facists.



Evangelical American Zionism hates Jewish people with a thin facade of support. A disturbingly large amount of Americans believe that it's prophecy and God's will that the Middle East be "cleansed in fire" and that Israel's role as the Jewish state is an essential part of the plan. It is the same support a farmer offers to pigs when they fill their trough with slop. They want Israel so they can see its destruction through nuclear war.

It is a disgusting viewpoint and essential to understanding American Zionist support of Israel. My (lifelong far-right conservative jack-Mormon) father shared this with me 25 years ago.



Who invaded Ukraine to denazify it and it’s Jewish president


russian facists.


Trident, the United Kingdom’s nuclear weapons program is dependent on Washington for the maintenance, design, and testing of UK submarines. The nuclear missiles aboard them are on lease from Uncle Sam.


Context: "The missiles are manufactured in the United States, while the warheads are British."


If France can keep Sweden from resuming their own nuclear weapons program, they don't have to worry about getting into a nuclear war with Sweden 40 years from now. (Unthinkable? So was Sweden joining a mutual defense alliance like NATO.)

Drones make nukes obsolete anyway. After you nuke a country its generals no longer have any incentive to surrender; they have nothing to go home to when they leave their bunkers.



Nukes don't destroy countries and if the side that was attacked also has nukes ... I think there's been plenty said about that already.


What do you mean by "destroy countries"? Vaporize dirt? Generals in bunkers don't want to go back home to dirt, especially if it's radioactive.


Nukes have very little total effect. Consider the countries that have been nuked, by weapons or by meltdown.


There's a significant difference between Fat Man (21 kilotonnes TNT yield) and Little Boy (15 kT) and 400 Minuteman IIIs each carrying a W87 (300 kilotonnes each, 120 000 kilotonnes total). And that's one third of the US's current nuclear triad. The second leg is 14 submarines, each carrying 20 Trident II missiles, each armed with an average of four warheads in MIRVs, for a total of some 1100 deployed independently retargetable warheads, which can be 475-kilotonne W88 warheads or something smaller. I'd look up the gravity-bomb numbers, but I think I've had enough already.

The effects on a country of 1000 or 2000 radioactive mushroom clouds seem like they'd be quite a bit larger than the one or two we've seen previously. You could see a billion people dead within an hour.

But they're very unselective weapons. The reason for the trend toward these sub-megatonne warheads is that it makes them more selective so they have more strategic value. But they really can't compete with simple precision weapons there. The US's force of 2800-some warheads costs about US$60 billion per year to maintain, about 20 million dollars per year per warhead. US$200 million will buy you 200 000 commercial drones with which you can kill almost 200 000 individually selected people with grenades. That's enormously more strategically valuable than the million random people you can kill with the warhead.



You need people to arm and deploy 200k drones. With nukes you just press a button. They're also a lot cheaper if you skimp on maintenance and make up for it in quantity.


You don't, no.


If you still think that, please watch this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujfC0NgdU48



What? Nobody has been nuked since the first atomic bombs in Japan, and those were devastating, convincing them to fully surrender. A lot more powerful and effective ones have been developed during the cold war. A couple megatons dropped on a major city could cause a massive firestorm. EMPs could be generated high up in the atmosphere knocking out the grid and unshielded electronics.


The UK depends on Trident. Apparently the terms are something like a lease agreement and Trump could ask for them back or disable them.


That there hasn’t been a Scandinavian military alliance is a huge mistake. It would stabilise the entire continent.

Instead there is NATO, totally dominated by the US.



Time for the Northern Europe Alternative Treaty Organization.


With a much better acronym.


I wonder what the Swedish government thinks of the DCA agreement now. I would definitely reconsider.


Interesting...

"Swedish nuclear weapons program" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_nuclear_weapons_progra...



They went a lot further than publicly acknowledged.


I think quite a few EU leaders agree on this stance, and given the conversations with my peers, all of us want an independent EU.


Just curious, who said this?


Apparently PM Ulf Kristersson (Moderate Party). [0]

Also, Thomas Nilsson, head of Sweden’s military intelligence service (MUST), said that Sweden must be ready for any eventuality [with Russia from the Finnish border to the Arctic] after a Ukraine settlement.

[0]: https://www.sverigesradio.se/avsnitt/prime-minister-open-to-...



> If European leaders don't watch this and realise they need to take control of their own destiny they're idiots

They should take control. That's why it puzzled me why they are okay to get deindustrialized, are okay to destroy their nuclear plants, and are okay to rely on imports of natural gas from Russia



Europe still produces more than 20% of its electric power from nuclear plants. In hindsight, it was premature by Germany to shut down theirs so early, but looking at the rise of renewables it’s just a matter of time until nuclear will just be irrelevant (1). In addition, this will allow true energy independence while for example the German nuclear plants relied partially on fuel rods produced in Russia …

(1) Yes, there is the challenge of dark days with little wind, but there are many, many avenues to solve this one (better grid interconnections across Europe, green hydrogen backup plants, overbuilding cheap capacity, …)



> In hindsight, it was premature by Germany to shut down theirs so early

What hindsight? Everyone knew at the time that it was premature. It was a deliberate choice to bear the burden of increased pollution and to make the country more dependent on the whims of a foreign dictator, because nuclear bad.



Yes, some of the consequences could have been seen at that time, but I cannot remember that they were really part of the wider discussion. It was mostly nuclear safety vs nuclear‘s low CO2 emissions and alleged low costs. My memory might fail me, but I cannot remember that energy dependence was a big topic. Rather the opposite, nuclear was seen as „bridge technology“ that would eventually pave the way towards full renewable energy. Even the utility companies did not argue for a permanent place for nuclear in the power mix, but a slower switchover to lower the costs of the transition. I think most were already picturing the future 20 years down the road when decentralized renewables would create a green, independent, … future


There was no discussion. It was a knee-jerk decision by then-chancellor Merkel in the wake of the Fukushima nuclear incident, and constituted pretty much a 180 (relative to the maybe-phase-out-not-clear-when-definitely-not-now that was pretty much the bipartisan consensus at the time). It was clear to observers at the time that it would make Germany more reliant on coal and gas and, by extension, Putin, that it would threaten the energy-intensive German industry and it was criticized for that at the time. Calling this a hindsight debate is just silly.


This is an incorrect take.

The phase out of nuclear had already started. Merkel reversed that, than in the wake of Fukushima reversed that once again, paying the nuclear companies hundreds of millions of damages in the process.



First, nuclear power has been discussed intensively in Germany since the 1970s. While political moods shifted somewhat over the decades, in practical terms there was less and less willingness to maintain or even expand nuclear power: maintenance issues, rising costs, lack of consensus on permanent waste storage, lack of political direction, … would have resulted in a transition away from nuclear power in any case. Yes, the decision by Merkel was sudden but it didn’t emerge from nowhere. Nuclear power was already doomed in Germany and it was just a question of when it would die. And despite all the discussions, I still cannot remember (or find) that dependence from Russia was even in the top-5 of arguments from either side


> And despite all the discussions, I still cannot remember (or find) that dependence from Russia was even in the top-5 of arguments from either side

The Nord Stream pipeline was completed in 2011, the same year Merkel decided to accelerate the phase out of nuclear. The US had repeatedly warned against constructing the pipeline because of energy dependence on Russia.

Everyone knew that apart from coal Germany has no energy resources. Given that it wouldn't be possible to meet climate goals with coal the energy would need to come from either the newly constructed pipeline or renewables.

That the newly created energy dependence would give power to dictatorships may not have been at the forefront of the public's mind. But treating it as something unknowable without hindsight lets the politicians who caused this travesty off too easy. If Merkel had been honest to the public about the potential consequences of her decision, perhaps it would've been a part of the debate.



> more dependent on the whims of a foreign dictator

You do realize that Germany is not allowed to do any uranium enrichment or waste processing? All of this was outsourced, partially to France, but primarily to Russia.

How is that not "dependent on the whims of a foreign dictator"



Actually, I'm pretty sure it was a lot of fearmongering due to the Fukushima incident which started that wave of anti-nuclear in Germany. A bad decision, for sure.


> which started that wave of anti-nuclear in Germany

Started? The anti-nuclear movement has been around since the 70s.



It was also funded by the KGB.


> Europe still produces more than 20% of its electric power from nuclear plants.

That's technically true, but France's representation is completely outsized in that, as the one country which went hard on nuclear it's got more than half the nuclear production of the continent: https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php...

And that's being down 25% from its historical peaks because a significant fraction of the park was offline for unscheduled maintenance due to corrosion issues (I believe the park's been ramping back up and should be back to full).

IIRC France is the number 3 nuclear electricity producer on the planet behind the US and China.



With time being relative, nuclear might become irrelevant, though that's very far off into the future. It's very important to have stable baseline power generation that you can depend on, and not the whims of the weather. Wind turbines don't do constant production even off-shore, as there are periods where it's either too windy or not windy enough so they can't work, even though it's more rare than on-shore wind.


We don't need stable baseline power generation, we need a stable power line frequency. I know there are grid engineers here that could explain it better than me, but FWIW, nuclear power plants are sloooow, and thus terrible at reacting to fluctuations in the line frequency. Even if there are nuclear power plants, you use hydro-, gas-, or (hypothetically) battery-power in so called dispatch power plants to maintain the frequency.

Add on top the insane costs of building, maintaining, and waste disposal, nuclear power plants are, without subventions, just not economically viable. But keep on researching, there is interesting stuff happening in this space, and -- who knows -- maybe something moves the equation around.



> there are many, many avenues to solve this one (better grid interconnections across Europe, green hydrogen backup plants, overbuilding cheap capacity, …)

All those options are currently non-viable because they are too expensive.

The problem is that the few dark days with little wind cost as much to produce as all remaining days of the year (and may even surpass it). Interconnections added to the problem, with worse long term allocation of hydro storage and increased volatile in the energy market. Market forces has been a direct hindrance, with citizens in practically every EU country demanding government subsidizes to solve the issue of energy shortage, rather then reducing demand.

Looking at a typical energy bill from northern Europe, you almost don't pay anything for hours when wind production is optimal. The cost of those hours are basically a rounding error and all you pay are grid fees. The issue is the average price are more than 20x of that, and the peak price are well over 100x.



> In hindsight, it was premature by Germany to shut down theirs so early

This is a widespread talking point that is more wrong than correct:

Germany did not shut down its nuclear reactors early. In fact, those reactors should have been shut down decades ago. They had been well past their intended shelf lives.

The decision to finally shut them down also dates back to Merkel during the Fukushima incident (2011). So the timeline to shutting them down wasn't exactly short either. The last nuclear reactors were shut down well more than ten years after the original decision was made.

What you can blame Germany for is not building new nuclear reactors. Germany hadn't built new nuclear reactors since Chernobyl - the last reactor to come online was in 1988. The influence of the anti-nuclear protests was strong enough to prevent the construction of new reactors but not enough to phase out the ones that existed. Instead Germany continued extending their runtimes over and over again because this was easier to justify politically (or rather because it was less obvious than building new ones).

So in other words: it took Germany from 1986 (Chernobyl) to 2023 to shut down its reactors. But it did so in an extremely irresponsible way. And it still didn't have proper plans in place like investing in grid infrastructure and storage necessary to expand renewables.

That said, nuclear power is overrated as the one thing it does well is constant stable energy production. But the problem in the modern grid is not not having enough energy, the problem is not having enough energy on demand. Renewables can provide enough energy but they are unstable. You need something to cover those dips and nuclear doesn't work for that because you can't really scale it up and down much. Storage would be ideal but for the majority of time since the reunion Germany has been under a conservative government which doesn't want to spend money on infrastructure maintenance let alone investments (let's see if this conservative government will do things differently as Black Rock Merz has been promising in between his anti-woke populism). But for the time being the only option Germany has is fossil.



Germany spent 1 trillion euros on renewable energy, has the most expensive electricity in the EU and emits much more than nuclear France. Can we just move on and accept that renewables do not work at larger scales?


Renewables are the cheapest source of power and can be scaled up significantly faster than nuclear, while having none of the risks.

Power in Germany is expensive mostly due to gas and lack of storage capacity. Check back in four years when the storage capacity has gone up tenfold.



First they aren't, which is why Germany and other countries need to provide massive subsidies to producers. Also a source of energy that produces only when wind blows is quite useless, even if it's free. Your source of energy should produce when you have the need for it.

And storage is typically something thay doesn't scale, which is why Germany needs coal or gas to complement renewables. Polluting the rest of Europe while doing so.

Even the term of "renewables" is untrue, given the relatively short lifespan of most windfarms and solar panels. After 25 years you have to trash them, with no real way to recycle it.



Germany spent a lot on renewables but next to nothing on actual grid infrastructure and storage. Energy prices depend on the most expensive option in the mix at any given time. In Germany that means energy prices are dictated by the gas price. No amount of renewables helps with that unless you can eliminate gas entirely.


Because storage and grid infrastructure are immensely expensive and don't scale. Storage alone has negative returns above a certain capacity. You ask a country to rebuild its whole electrical infrastructure. It's a massive waste of capital.

Grid infrastructure requirements alone likely negates any ecological benefits given the amount of copper needed and the abysmal ecological conditions of copper mining.



You're misattributing the issues entirely. The issues right now are caused by the markets not reflecting reality.

If Germany were to split its electrical grid into two (north and south), as economists and the EU demand, things would be clearer.

The northern grid would produce more renewable energy than is required in total (hovering between 120-300% production vs usage). It'd have electricity prices around 10-15ct/kWh

The southern grid would have more pollution than even poland, as it's primarily fed with lignite, and would end up with an electricity price above 90ct/kWh.

The issues in Germany are not caused by technical or economical challenges, but by political ones. The southern states have passed laws to restrict renewables and limit construction of new power lines to gain favors with conservative NIMBYs and newage NIMBYs.



None of you provided any sources to actual research, so I don't know what to believe.


Look into the German Chancellor that shut down the nuclear power plants and brought in natural gas from Russia is up to these days. It wasn't "Europe" being ok with it, just classic grift.


What exactly is the classic grift Merkel did?


He is talking about Schroeder, who was in on Gazprom after his tenure.


But he didn’t shutdown nuclear power plants in Germany.


He did. Merkel accelerated it and Scholz chose not to delay. They all wanted this.


Merkel might have followed his idea but she made the final decision. It was Merkel (after Fukushima) who declared an end to nuclear power in Germany - pandering to Green voters.

The idea might well have come from the Schroeder Government but he did not make the final decision. In fact, the idea of nuclear exit is an idea of the Greens, Schroeder was pandering to the Greens in his coalition government back in the day. (Schroeder being SPD ("socialist"), Merkel being CDU ("conservative") and the Greens being the king makers back in the day - 2002 elections).

One has to remember that it was different times: the Greens were a serious alternative to SPD and CDU, one of their main ideals (since their foundation) has been an exit from nuclear (generally). So once they came into power with the SPD and Schroeder, they were naturally keen on asserting their influence.

Schroeder needed an alternative power source so he started looking to Russia. Russia was a serious partner in Europe, not only for Germany but all of Europe. After the fall of the wall, the policy of Europe was Russian integration into Europe. Why? Because this policy of interdependence of nations within Europe brought peace to Europe. Interdependence is - within capitalism - best achieved via trade amongst nations. Hence Germanys (not only Schroeder but german industry too) decision to accept (more) cheap gas and oil from Russia. The Russians were keen to bypass Ukraine and deliver gas directly to Germany, hence the idea of building the Nordstream 2 pipeline - an idea supported by the Schroeder Government and most probably german industry.

The Nordstream 2 pipeline was completed in Merkels times but it was never brought online. Olaf Scholz (SPD) made the final decision not to take the pipeline online because of Russias official recognition of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions as Russian. It was bombed - destroyed? - by unknown persons during the current war in 2022.

The result of these events has been raising energy costs in Germany. Which has lead to disenchantment in the political system, which in turn has lead to a shift to the right in Germany and a raise in the AFD. Ironically, it has now come full circle with a CDU suggesting an easing (if not removal) of the "Schuldenbremse"[1] ("brake on debt") - meaning that Germany is not allowed to borrow money above a certain limit. A policy that has destroyed investment in the country and lead to an evasion to risk-taking. A policy introduced by the CDU back in 2009.

In the end, it is all rather academic since we're now here and pointing fingers at the past is pointless. We're now facing a populist president in the USA, a populist Kanzler (prime minister) in German and chaos in Europe and the World.

For me, it seems that good ideas are always the success of those that commit to those ideas, never those that actually had the ideas. Bad ideas, on the other hand, are always the fault of those that had the ideas, never those that committed to those ideas. Unfortunately hindsight decides between good and bad ideas.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_balanced_budget_amendme...



He's not talking about Merkel but about Schröder I believe. The previous chancelor who later worked for Gazprom.


I was thinking about this recently, and wondering the EU will start moving away from the USD, further weakening the global strength of USD and America. They are already dealing with BRIC, and the potential of crypto (likely Bitcoin) to remove any single currency as providing power to any country.

The US has benefitted hugely by being the reserve currency, but that strength is also a weakness that can be used against them, but only if the other countries collaborate, which the EU is most capable of.



The benefit of the reserve currency is our ability to run huge deficits and the result is a loss of our industrial base. It's a double-edged sword but one that ends up leaving us vulnerable. If we had a major non-nuclear conflict with China, for example, they would out build us the way we out built the Germans in WWII.


There is no such thing as a major non-nuclear conflict.


I see it the precise other way around, essentially the position parodied by Yes Prime Minister with Hacker's Grand Design.

Basically, there's never a sensible reason to use the nukes. Let's suppose the EU invades Russia. We seize Pskov, should Russia use its nukes? Of course not, we will nuke them in turn. If we take Novgorod, should they use them? Of course not, it'll be nuclear annihilation. St Petersburg, Pskov, Novgorod? No. Moscow? No.

There's never any reason to fire the missiles, and if they respond with a limited nuclear strike, we just match it with one causing, let's say, 10% more damage and keep pushing.

As long as you have nukes yourself nukes are irrelevant and won't be used other than in a limited way even as your conventional forces march through your enemy's capital.



except the one happening last three years? :)


If it was a non-nuclear conflict Russian would have been mowed down long time ago. The only reason why Russia is still in the game is defensive plans involving tactical nuclear weapons.


Only one side has nuclear weapons so it doesn't count.


Both sides do have nuclear weapons. Europe has France.

While there are no European armies in Ukraine, we are not neutral and thus in principle in some way at war with Russia. Presumably this is why our PM here in Sweden has said that we are neither at war nor not at war-- i.e. we're legally at war with Russia, but it's a sort of phony-war á la 1938.



counts even more if only one side has it


As a US citizen horrified by the people that voted for Trump, this is my big fear too.

We have never had a weaker president that caused so many self-inflicted wounds.

This administration is shaping up to be self-immolation covered by the veneer of strength, for people that don't understand what strength is.

The small fraction of Silicon Valley that bent the knee to this narcissist wanna-be-king have shown themselves to be unbelievably weak too. It's surprising. I have lost so much respect for so many people over the past 6 months, but I fear much more for the future prosperity that we have needlessly destroyed.



"As a US citizen horrified by the people that voted for Trump"

Congratulations, you've been successfully propagandized to a point where you view people who don't vote the way you do as morally inferior. I'm sure that will help you persuade them in the future.

"This administration is shaping up to be self-immolation covered by the veneer of strength, for people that don't understand what strength is." Oh, so you know what strength is huh? Did you ever serve in the military? Do you even have friends who did?

Interesting that you ignore the fact that the previous president was mentally incapable of the job for increasingly long intervals as his term progressed, and was so incompetent on the Afghanistan withdrawal that he projected tremendous weakness that acted as an invite for Putin to launch a full scale assault less than a year later.

Biden did nothing for Silicon Valley, other than try to regulate AI to a point where only a small handful of massive companies had foundation models. Marc Andreesen didn't support Trump until AFTER the Biden administration bureaucrats met with him and told him they would ensure that they would only allow a small handful of foundation AI companies that they tightly regulated to exist. He was so horrified that he switched over.

The moral inversion it takes to claim that the people willing to stand agains the Valley's intense social conformity "weak" is also revealing about how brainwashed you truly are. You're just part of the mob, and if you lived in a super conservative place, you'd be part of that mob too. Freethinking requires courage, and I see none of it in the typical SV limousine liberal. Just a bunch of millionaires who hate the billionaires they envy.



You elected a mad king who is intent on tearing down the alliances that have made the US prosper over the last 80 years. I don't think your parent is the one who is brainwashed. Embracing tyranny is only "courageous free thinking" in a fever dream.


You don’t think there has been mad kings in the last 80 years? You think the Iraq/Afghanistan dalliances were not inherently domination oriented? JFK was killed for specific reasons that you can look up if you at all curious.


Nixon's administration is sill within 60 years old, so of course this isn't the only attempt in 80 years. Sad part was we were actually good at shaming corruption back then. Not sure what happened to make us complacent to daily Watergate+ level scaandals.


What does this even mean? Yes, the Iraq war was terrible. That doesn't make Trump any better.


JP, the tone of your answer actually jumps to all the conclusions, and name calling. Epi just said "he was horrified", he did not in any way suggest that the people who voted for Trump were inferior.

Having said that, Biden was a pretty crap and useless leader. That doesn't mean the opposite of Biden is doing better. At least Biden did fairly minimal damage with his inaction.

Do I disagree with Biden's take on AI? Sure, but did they actually have any teeth to stop progress? China's progress in AI proves not.

You were very quick to blame others for being successfully propagandized. I suggest you point the same magnifying glass on yourself.

We dislike in others what we see in ourselves.



I have no clue why people keep saying Biden was useless. He had to handle the COVID pandemic at its worst (after Trump 45's early actions made things worse) and managed to ease the economy to avoid (or at elast, delay) a recession compared to most other countries. He had to handle the decisions with the Ukrainan war which let the stand strong for 3 years, and unlike Trumps false promises he was starting to bring in local American production in light of realizing we were losing to China. He may not take full credit, but he also had an incredibly effective FTC/FCC that was harkening back to the days of attacking Robber Barons.

He was a good (not great) president in unprecedented bad times. He's no FDR but "inaction" would have had America in a truly awful situation. So where did all his "useless leader" narrative come from? Did people really get that brainwashed from one bad night as the proceeding precedent is spouting nonsense on the daily?



Where Biden really failed was messaging, and the failure was at least in part related to his age.

Trump does an amazing job messaging. Sure, 99% of what he says is either a lie senile ramblings, but he’s out there all the time. A social media POTUS indeed.



It is depressing to think that future presidents will probably follow Trump’s lead. I liked having a boring president for four years who didn’t feel the need to be the center of attention all the time. I get that disciplined restraint must be balanced with communicating to Americans, like maybe the best kid was with Obama or Clinton, who communicated often but never did with so much bluster or arrogance.


I’m hoping the American people don’t require that level of bluster. I think a younger Biden who could have effectively communicated his empathy, accomplishments, challenges with inflation and etc… could have won again. The election really was very close.

Another data point is when many other politicians have tried to be like Trump, they have lost. We’ll just have to see what happens in 2 and 4 years.



Wow, politics really doesn't belong here. I have no idea why your comment would be downvoted. I disagree that Biden was effective, but should you really be downvoted because people disagree with you?

You kinda make a good point regarding Covid, but at the same time, I think the action he took there was basically what any non-lunatic would do. It wasn't like he had some massive amazing plan and he actioned it. He just stopped the ignorance of previous administration.

WRT Ukraine, "letting them stand strong" wasn't strong enough. The delays and lack of significant support is, I believe, what has caused the war to drag on. It's like there being a person with cancer, and rather than giving them enough chemo to kill the cancer, you give them just enough that the cancer has difficulty spreading.

What was necessary was a conclusive coordinated action among allies, so that isn't entirely Biden's fault, but everything did seem haphazard.

Also, being in Australia, I think from an economic standpoint, you are overstating the easing of the economy. Everyone has faced some level of inflation, but when I go to the US, it seems to me that "real" inflation has hit you more than other countries I've visited.



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Can you explain either of your points? What do you mean? Do you have evidence?

For example, whatever one thinks about US immigration policy (I think it’s utterly broken to the point of absurdity), a cursory attempt to figure out the approximate net number of illegal immigrants added during Biden’s tenure comes suggests that the net change was pretty small. It seems that there has been a trend toward net addition of illegal immigrants in the last few years that (a) is small compared to the total number in the US and (b) started well before the end of the last Trump administration.

I did find plenty of partisan sources trying to shock me with numbers of border encounters that contain many digits, but there doesn’t seem to be much explanation of why this is a useful statistic or to what extent Biden’s administration had much to do with it. (There was a program derisively referred to as “catch and release” that seems likely to have resulted in a temporary increase in “border encounters,” but I don’t see evidence that it had much effect on net illegal immigration.)

As for graft, I genuinely have no idea what you’re referring to.



The illegal immigrant numbers aren't really meaningful anymore since we moved to a policy where anyone who crosses the border and says "asylum" gets to stay for years as a legal immigrant awaiting a court date.


Do the DHS estimates of the illegal immigrant population include those who have applied for asylum?

In any case, until 2023, the number of asylum applications per year was pretty low.



You are correct finding numbers can be a bit hard. Here is what I have found.

Since President Biden took office in January 2021, the U.S. has experienced a significant increase in illegal border crossings. Reports indicate that there have been approximately 8 million "encounters" at the U.S.-Mexico border during his tenure, a substantial rise compared to previous administrations. This surge is notably higher than the figures recorded during the Trump administration, which saw approximately 2.4 million encounters over four years.

For graft I was referring to the continual mismanagement of funds by Federal Departments. - An estimated $236 billion in improper payments were made, encompassing over-payments, underpayments, and payments lacking proper documentation. - The DOD hasn't passed an audit in in 7 years! We can not account for our spending or our military assets. - The whole US Aid thing is also part of that graft. US dollars going to questionable endeavors to enrich a few.

There are many more examples from FEMA and other organizations. The examples illustrate a systemic issue with the federal governments financial management.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_policy_of_the_Joe_... https://www.gao.gov/blog/federal-government-made-236-billion... https://www.myjournalcourier.com/opinion/article/commentary-...



Can we recognise how bad of a look it is to be calling people "illegals" while your leaders are giving Nazi salutes, opening concentration camps and referring to people on welfare as parasites? I don't think any of us should be engaging with such violently charged language anymore. By all means have the discussion respectfully but it's distressing to see people continue with this dehumanising language while the rest of us look on in horror.


I don't agree that it is a bad look. People on welfare are taking from the system and people who cross our borders and enter and stay in our country without visas are illegal. People who look at such things with "horror" dehumanize the conversation by refusing to admit the harsh truths of the world. It is like they bathe themselves in weakness and virtue signaling. They hide from how cruel the world is and try to bring everything down to some tame level that doesn't exist solely so they can control the discourse.


> People on welfare are taking from the system and people who cross our borders and enter and stay in our country without visas are illegal.

They are taking from the system, yes. They are people who receive welfare, not parasites. People who emigrate illegally have committed a crime, they are not themselves a crime , they are not themselves illegal. The most we could stretch to would be "illegally present people." But going further and calling a group of people "illegals" removes the human aspect from the conversation and is therefore quite literally dehumanising.

> People who look at such things with "horror" dehumanize the conversation

A conversation is not a human so this point comes across as absurd. Could you rephrase it?

> It is like they bathe themselves in weakness and virtue signaling.

This point comes across as a vaccuous ad hominem, could you rephrase it?

> They hide from how cruel the world is

I can speak for myself and say that I am very much not doing that. I couldn't be more conscious of the fact that the last time language like this was normalised it lead to the deaths of millions of innocent people. This cannot happen again. It is purely the incredible cruelty of this world that drives me to say what I am saying.



When the completely descriptive term "illegal immigrant" becomes somehow an immoral thing to call people who immigrate illegally, it was a bit absurd. Literally every illegal immigrant has committed a crime, by definition, and that crime is immigrating illegally - "illegal" describes the mode of immigration. The previous administration used "undocumented immigrant" (and often shortened it to "undocumented") as a sort of "softening" language game.


You're talking about the term "illegal immigrants" but I was responding to the use of the term "illegals." The term you're using includes the word migrant and is therefore not dehumanising in the same way. The difference is between using illegal as an alternative or a noun. Sorry if that wasn't clear from what I said


I'm sorry but these are the word games that drive the right. In essence, no one gives a shit. You are only signaling to other liberals and accomplishing nothing. Why not focus on a fight that matters.


You've made a good example of the danger of using words like this to group people. You've made an incorrect assumption that I am a "liberal" and you've made no argument beyond that I am serving a boogeyman in the nebulous concept of "the right," perpetuating a black and white idea of us-and-them politics and shoe-horning every possible opinion into one of two camps.

If you genuinely want to change my behaviour then please substantiate your claims, give arguments for the points you're making and speak to me like an individual rather than a hologram of whatever group you're projecting onto me.



I don't care about political labels. These niche arguments are useless - they don't change anyone's mind. Both sides use these debates as examples to portray the other as extreme. I'm tired of discourse that claims to enlighten but only pushes people further apart, regardless of intent.


You don't care about political labels but your entire argument was that my position "drives the right" -- no reasoning was offered, only the claim that your boogeyman of choice was somehow being strengthened. You don't care about labels but you made sure to accompany your claim by pointing out that I was "only signaling to other liberals" making again a point with no content other than the boogeyman and now with the addition of now placing me within that group on the basis of my position.

I've read back on this exchange several times. I see that I am positing something about language and explaining my reasoning, then you're responding with cries about "word games" without saying anything of substance. Do you see the same thing? What are you trying to say and why?



The word games I was referring to were your overly technical analysis of the term "illegal." In everyday conversation, people don't care about logical breakdowns of words. They find such arguments absurd and view those making these claims as out of touch. While you might see it as a justified position, most people perceive it as someone being pedantic/elitist with too much time on their hands.

I'm sorry that I assumed you belonged to a group on a political thread where everyone was trashing Trump. It was a dumb mistake to assume you are worried about the rise of the far right.



If we should call things what they are, we should definitely start by calling Americans who emigrate to other countries what they are: immigrants in the other country. Of course most choose to cutely refer to themselves as "expats".


Sure, I agree you should call them that. "Expat" is short for "expatriate" which is about where they come from. They are both expatriates of America and immigrants to wherever they go.


Glad you agree!

I'm just pointing out that the most plausible reason your fellow countrymen choose to call themselves "expats" wherever they go, is because the rhetoric in your country has dehumanized or made the word immigrants/illegal "dirty".

Not hard to imagine such rhetoric can lead to nastiness all around, ending even in violence against said group. If you don't mind that and see no problem with that, then of course there's absolutely no common ground for us to have any discussion on :)



I don't agree with you that the words "illegal immigrant" create violence. Also, "immigrant" does not carry a negative connotation in most uses as far as I can tell. The negative connotation comes from the word "illegal," which marks someone who commits a crime (illegal immigration) as a criminal. Of course, aside from arrest and deportation, they do not deserve to be subject to violence or maltreatment. That is how every country in the world treats people who immigrate illegally.


> I don't agree with you that the words "illegal immigrant" create violence.

Heh I guess you've never been subject to taunts such as "go back to your country illegal" or "you don't belong here!". Must be nice!



I am a second-generation American and actually have been told "go back to your country" and been given the "you don't belong here" before, too. The people who say that shit are assholes and are worth ignoring (it's very easy). But thank you for informing me that disliking the people who jump the line invalidates my perspective.


When the completely descriptive term "illegal immigrant" becomes somehow an immoral thing to call people who immigrate illegally, it was a bit absurd

I think you're missing GP's point. It's "illegals" that's arguably dehumanizing. Similar to "blacks" or "the blacks" versus "black people".

I'm not saying that I necessarily agree with GP, but I've definitely picked up on racism from people who talk about "blacks" instead of black people, and the homophobia from people who talk about "the gays" instead of gay people.



Why, then, is "the undocumented" not dehumanizing? This is the language that has been used under the prior administration.


Who says it isn't? If you want my opinion, it's the same habit creeping into the new language. Whether or not that's dehumanizing, I don't know, and I don't care. I'm fine with the term "illegals". I was just explaining what I understood GP's point to be.


I really don't want to get into de-railing the conversation away from the very real concern of the rise of facism in the US, but "undocumented" here is a factual adjective whereas using the term "illegals" as a noun is a clear scare-word. The more neutral equivalent would be "illegal immigrants" and the more charged version of "the undocumented" would be "undocumenteds."


The real problem is the totality of it. We've gone far past calling them "illegal" to saying "they're poisoning the blood of our country", which incidentally is also language used by Nazis.

The things they say consistently ratchet toward justifications for genocide rather than away from it, and that's how it works - one small step at a time, where people explain each one away as not that bad.

But each step is toward the day when you can say "... and therefore we must implement a final solution for the problem of illegals. I wish it didn't have to be this way, but they forced us to by poisoning and invading our country."



It's a long way to go from the word "illegal(s)" and large-scale deportations to Nazism and genocide. Deportation of illegal immigrants is a good thing. Illegal immigration is a violation of the law, and it is routine for people who overstay a visa to be deported (and usually banned from entry to a country for 10-20 years).

There are people who wait decades to legally get a visa, and all of the people who saunter over the border thinking they are above the law make a mockery of the people who do it the right way. While you keep imagining an unavoidable slippery slope to genocide, I will celebrate the return of the rule of law to immigration while making sure that it goes no further.



We're far past "illegals" tho. Like I said, we are at "vermin poisoning the blood of the country". We are past "detention facilities", and we are on to "military controlled black site known for torturing terrorists where media can't see". And the political climate has moved from "we need to build a wall" to "we need to deport 11 million people and challenge the constitutionality of citizenship".

We are closer than you think. All they need at this point is to start defying court orders and there are no more guardrails. None. They have the authority. They have the social permission structure. They have immunity from laws. They control the police and military. What's left?

If you disagree, please point to what would prevent this administration from carrying out a "final solution" against immigrants?



As I said in my initial comment those are all points that can be made respectfully. I have no issue with someone arguing in favour of deporting those who have illegally emigrated. That argument is indeed a far way away from Nazism.

Where it becomes concerning is when this dehumanising language begins to creep in. When the administration begins talking about people as "vermin" it becomes very concerning.

Where the fear of Nazism comes in is when we see Nazi salutes and plans to move "the illegals" to purpose built camps outside of normal American jurisdiction in Guantanamo Bay.



You can help make the world a less cruel place.


Yes, but making the world a less cruel place requires strength—strength of purpose, strength of character, and intellectual strength to have hard conversations about hard realities. We don’t reduce cruelty by ignoring the harm done by those who break the law. The people you defend are not victims—they are the ones making life harder for others, whether it’s overwhelming social services, committing crimes, or undercutting legal immigrants who followed the rules.

We don’t fight cruelty by sanitizing language or pretending reality isn’t what it is. We fight it by acknowledging hard truths and having the courage to address them honestly, not emotionally.



Social services are designed to serve people. If it is being overwhelmed, that's because it's been underfunded.


> How many illegals did he bring into the country

You realize that tons of industries directly support illegal immigration by hiring said illegals right? All of agribusiness, nearly all restaurants, warehouses, meat packing etc. etc. Have you ever stopped to wonder why we don't throw the business owners in jail for this? We would stop illegal immigration overnight if we jailed the actors driving the demand but we never do, and this is bipartisan.

Capitalism is addicted to cheap labor, and it benefits from the demonization and criminalization of the immigrants as it makes them even cheaper and easier to exploit. So sure, demonize illegals all you want, you're playing the exact role the oligarchs want you to to deflect attention from them.



> Marc Andreesen didn't support Trump until AFTER the Biden administration bureaucrats met with him and told him they would ensure that they would only allow a small handful of foundation AI companies that they tightly regulated to exist. He was so horrified that he switched over.

a16z investments are mostly Cryptos and some AIs.

Andreesen loves Crypto and he hates that it's being regulated like mad (cause tons of scamming going on).



>>> Marc Andreesen didn't support Trump until AFTER the Biden administration bureaucrats met with him and told him they would ensure that they would only allow a small handful of foundation AI companies that they tightly regulated to exist. He was so horrified that he switched over.

That is the claim from Andreessen, and the way he told it sounded rather far-fetched. Has anyone else confirmed it?

Andreessen also claims (see Joe Rogan interview) that the US nuclear weapons testing program was some elaborate fake complete with fake movies of nuclear bomb tests. When someone makes such ludicrous claims, I tend to doubt anything else they say.



Tons of scamming goes on over email too and we don't respond by shutting down email services


We don't shut down crypto, either. But if you scam people via crypto, then there are penalties, the same as there are for sending scams over email.


Coinbase is still operating.


The Biden admin tried to shut them down by suing them for being an unlicensed security exchange. And they did this even though the only time the issue has been ruled on by a judge it was determined that crypto is not a security.


Oh good, checks and balances work, unlike the current Admin


I thought Andreesen on the surface publicly "heel turned" because the Biden administration and SEC made some really weak motions at regulating cryptocurrencies. I believe Andreesen's words were "CRYPTO REGULATION TERROR REGIME", or something like that. Every day there is a bigger and bigger crypto token scam becoming public, not always but sometimes involving the most powerful person in the United States.


Thanks for giving a different perspective here. Unfortunately, I have to respectively disagree.

> was so incompetent on the Afghanistan withdrawal

That was based on a deal Trump made with the Taliban. I don't know if Trump would have botched it too. I would put that on Bush who f*ed up that war completely.

But ultimately it boils down to the moral inability of Americans to fight an uneven war. The problem here is the appeasement policy that unfortunately both sides suffer from.

> projected tremendous weakness

I think that's overblown. There are cases where it was true and others (such as Ukraine) where Biden showed how he can hold back Russia without risking a single US soldier. That was pretty good.

> Biden did nothing for Silicon Valley

The CHIPS act? Intel etc. got a ton of money. Battery manufacturing moved back to the states with multiple factories opening up.

He brought back manufacturing to the USA and gave a lot in that sense. The fact that he kept policies going (no tariffs etc.) was a huge benefit to tech which relies on stability and globalization.

> Freethinking requires courage, and I see none of it in the typical SV limousine liberal.

I think using language like that goes counter to free thinking. I despise Trump as a person, but I accept that some of the policies and stances aren't wrong. Unfortunately, discourse is at a level where we can't even have adult conversations on the issues without name-calling.



If you wish to discuss the topic, I'll happily explain every reason I hate the current administration. Of which there is many, and of which is bound in ojective stories I can point to with sources.

If you wish to instead accuse me of propaganda with no basis, thanks for justiying one of the reasons I hate the administration and their supporters. Mud slinging doesn't interest me in this day and age and your entire rant is not only baseless but has so many holes and inaccuracies that I'd recommend reading your history before trying to re-write such statements. .



This is exactly on point, thank you for saying it.


I hate Trump because I'm not propagandized. I no longer have any patience for pro-Trump rhetoric tbh. He's going to get a lot of people killed.

Embarrassed to be an American today. You're on the wrong side of history.



It's wild seeing life imitating art, but the recent Civil War movie had the sitting president serving his 3rd term as to what probably caused 19 states to secede, and Trump has talked about somehow finding a way to serve a third term. One could argue that's just typical Trump bluster, like him telling people they won't have to vote again, or blue states might disappear in year. But I'm becoming more convinced he actual intends to do these things.


BluAnon in full effect I see.


Which part, the Alex Garland movie, or the things Trump has done the past 40 days?


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Intellectually bankrupt seems better than the "civil adults in the room" that are the very topic of this thread.


Biden 2020 was supposed to be civility prez, I don't think anybody thinks Trump is civil? Zelenskyy personality cult did need a dressing down but I also think it was a piece of a performance art, in all likelihood.


> Two avoidable new wars under Biden.

Which wars?

Ukraine could have been trivially avoided by Russia, as Ukraine did nothing to provoke the war except perhaps by the mere fact of its existence as a an independent country. But I assume you mean “avoidable by Biden.” How would Biden have avoided it?

What’s the second? Gaza? I give Biden approximately zero credit for competent handling of the situation, but that war was started by a surprise attack by one non-US party against another non-US party. Nobody asked the US’s opinion. I very much doubt that the US could have prevented that war by announcing a desire to annex Gaza.



Those are Russian bot talking points. Best to just ignore. Just like saying Ukraine started the current conflict and not so subtly removing all responsibility from Russia.


Good of you to get the correct talking points back on track! Curious how well this strategy will work? Is there a single Pro Russian perspectives allowed in a critique of a war we pay for? Almost seems like a problematic monoculture. Alas this is primarily a tech site but I would expect SOME debate.


Holy shit I don't even know where to begin with you people. Whataboutism is wild, you can't see dictatorship staring you in the fucking face.

The US is doomed if you seriously believe the crap you spew out onto the internet.



“whataboutism” is a weak and recent phrase that means literally nothing. Please engage with specifics.

Most Americans would not agree with a 1939 “ascendant dictator in America” narrative and yet you do. I wonder how the “you people” strategy works in your brain? I do not think of HN audience as separate to “my” people. Silly that you do the inverse.



>Most Americans would not agree with a 1939 “ascendant dictator in America” narrative and yet you do.

Yes, I'm sure of that. Just as Germans in 1939 would also not agree with an "Ascendent dictator of Germany". `People are pretty good a rejecting inconvinent realities when they're moral compass is on the line.

>I do not think of HN audience as separate to “my” people.

And this is just a dishonest argument. Let's not play coy, thank you.



Fascist prez didn't really ring well with USA voters during Kamala loss so I expect "you" people to just kind of burn out on the whole strategy. Simply the most likely scenario. The majority of the US voted for a fascist? Just reeks of midwit thinking to most people.


People are waking up now to the reality Trump is an aspiring autocrat. His core base might be so blinded by the cult of personality that they will follow a dictator, but the rest of us won't.


Quite a conspiracy theory you have there. Wake up sheeple!


some of us are woke :) we looked at all his living years, he’s been a public figure his entire life so easy to review his entire life&legacy. upon this review one can only conclude that he was sent down by God from heavens - a living messiah :) all ends up well as long as it is in his hands


kind of a schizopost?


> Congratulations, you've been successfully propagandized to a point where you view people who don't vote the way you do as morally inferior.

Where did they say anything about moral inferiority?

> I'm sure that will help you persuade them in the future.

Why does this argument only work in one direction? Why can the conservatives mock liberals, "coastal elites", blue cities and states, and more than half of America endlessly and still win? Why

> Interesting that you ignore the fact that the previous president was mentally incapable of the job for increasingly long intervals as his term progressed, and was so incompetent on the Afghanistan withdrawal that he projected tremendous weakness that acted as an invite for Putin to launch a full scale assault less than a year later.

Ironic you talk about "successfully propagandized" earlier and are regurgitating right wing talking points.

> The moral inversion it takes to claim that the people willing to stand agains the Valley's intense social conformity "weak" is also revealing about how brainwashed you truly are. You're just part of the mob, and if you lived in a super conservative place, you'd be part of that mob too. Freethinking requires courage, and I see none of it in the typical SV limousine liberal. Just a bunch of millionaires who hate the billionaires they envy.

It takes special kind of mental gymnastics to end up supporting murderous dictators while talking about "free thinkers", "moral inversion", and "brainwashing". What did they teach you next, whatabouttism?



It's been US policy for years to beg NATO members to increase military spending, it took the war in Ukraine for them to finally do it.

Part of NATO's charter is literally "spend minimum 2% GDP on military" and it was just ignored for much of the time.

But honestly I don't know why this entire comment section has turned to NATO NATO NATO. Ukraine isn't in NATO. And if the Budapest Memorandum is what you're referencing, France and UK signed too. It's not as if the US hasn't contributed to the war already.



> Part of NATO's charter is literally "spend minimum 2% GDP on military" and it was just ignored for much of the time.

No, it is literally not. The charter is here[1], read it yourself.

To my knowledge it was first mentioned in 2006, the press briefing [2] states

  Finally, I should add that Allies through the comprehensive political guidance have committed to endeavour, to meet the 2% target of GDP devoted to defence spending. Let me be clear, this is not a hard commitment that they will do it. But it is a commitment to work towards it. And that will be a first within the Alliance. 
It comes back again in 2014 [3], where they agree to:

  aim to move towards the 2% guideline within a decade
A decade after 2014 is 2024, and most, but not all, countries managed.

1: https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/official_texts_17120.htm

2: https://www.nato.int/docu/speech/2006/s060608m.htm

3: https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/official_texts_112964.htm



Thanks for this. It's an annoying point that people make.

It's much better to acknowledge that the deal the United States signed up for was to cover security for the entire European continent until 2024.



That's just more transactional thinking. NATO is not a deal but an alliance, a mutual pledge of support by people in the same boat. A pledge, I might remind you, the NATO members upheld when the USA invoked article 5 in 2001 and provided troops, material, and logistics in supporting the US invasion of Afghanistan and the resulting occupation.

This narrative that all NATO members are just freeloading of the USA is a fiction.



An alliance is a deal. The fact that the balance of NATO members are all rapidly and publicly stating “wow we need to increase our defense spending” is an admission that they cannot currently shoulder the security burden without the United States. I didn’t use the word “freeloading” but I suppose you could call it that. “The United States manages security for all of continental Europe” is not a mutual defense pact. It’s a contract.


If you frame any kind of agreement as a "deal" you are obviously right. However, a treaty is not a contract in the sense of civil law, it is not an agreement about you doing X is compensation for me doing Y. It's not tit-for-tat. It is a promise to keep and hold up a certain pledge, ie. you get in trouble, I help you. I get in trouble, you help me. If it weren't, some nations would be preparing charges against the USA for breach of contract right now and I think we can agree that's not what is happening.

Furthermore, your argument that one partner in the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, ie. the USA, is shouldering all of the work falls flat, because the only member of the NATO ever invoking the pact defense clause, ie. article 5, was the USA and ALL OTHER members responded by honoring the treaty, ie. supporting the USA to the best of their abilities in invading Afghanistan and maintaining an occupation force for 21 years. Even if you think not much of the abilities of US' NATO allies, most of the time the effort of the other NATO members at least matched the US effort. The USA couldn't have done it all by itself, just consider the range of transport vehicles. I can't change if you think that's nothing, but that's on you.



Speaking from experience here ... some, certainly not all, NATO partners in AFG were additional security burdens with arcane stipulations and ROE (no night ops, can't go outside the wire). I certainly acknowledge that many nations sent troops for that war, but we should not forget the political context in which that happened. European opinion was decidedly against participating. Bush and then Obama had to beg NATO members to increase their levels of support post-invasion (only the Aussies, the British, and I think Canada participated in the invasion, could be wrong), and then again during the occupation. This is part of why we ended up with the famous "caveats" that would make one ask ... why are you even here? The Europeans insisted on putting large safety constraints on their forces, and honestly I understand why. They weren't attacked, it was the Untied States' (bad) idea to pretend it was possible to build AFG into some kind of democracy, and their body politic had good reason to question their country's involvement.

>The USA couldn't have done it all by itself, just consider the range of transport vehicles

Not sure how to parse this. No one has the transport capabilities even close to ours.

Frankly, this issue has been percolating for a while now and it's better that we rip the band aid off and get it over with. We should've done this 25 years ago, but 9/11 happened and we got distracted. The AFG Campaign was extremely telling, both in terms of what a post-Soviet Union NATO could bring itself to do and the actual capabilities of the non-US partners. For what it's worth, Robert Gates (SECDEF at the time) was making some similar points back in 2011[1]:

>Today, I would like to share some parting thoughts about the state of the now 60-plus year old transatlantic security project, to include:

>Where the alliance mission stands in Afghanistan as we enter a critical transition phase; NATO’s serious capability gaps and other institutional shortcomings laid bare by the Libya operation; The military – and political – necessity of fixing these shortcomings if the transatlantic security alliance is going to be viable going forward; And more broadly, the growing difficulty for the U.S. to sustain current support for NATO if the American taxpayer continues to carry most of the burden in the Alliance.

>The blunt reality is that there will be dwindling appetite and patience in the U.S. Congress – and in the American body politic writ large – to expend increasingly precious funds on behalf of nations that are apparently unwilling to devote the necessary resources or make the necessary changes to be serious and capable partners in their own defense. Nations apparently willing and eager for American taxpayers to assume the growing security burden left by reductions in European defense budgets.

>Indeed, if current trends in the decline of European defense capabilities are not halted and reversed, future U.S. political leaders—those for whom the Cold War was not the formative experience that it was for me—may not consider the return on America’s investment in NATO worth the cost.

Emphasis added. This was 14 years ago. Pity that it took the reality of a land war in Eastern Europe and the possibility of no American security presence for the Europeans to take this point seriously.

[1] https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/natosource/text-of-spe...



NATO was a bribe to get the Europeans to sign onto non proliferation.


All alliances are deals, especially to the current administration.


What word do you want me to use here, rule? Regulation? I honestly don't care, I thought you could describe this as an update to the charter. I'm sorry if that offended you.


What makes you think I am offended?

You came out pretty strong, stating that something was "literally part of the charter", and thats just wrong. And sometimes I think it is worth pointing out glaring errors.

Instead of "2%" beeing in the charter, it was a goal to have it done by 2024, and most countries managed. Which is very different from even the most charitable interpretation of your post.



Not quite:

> Europe’s dependence on the United States for its security means that the United States possesses a de facto veto on the direction of European defense. Since the 1990s, the United States has typically used its effective veto power to block the defense ambitions of the European Union. This has frequently resulted in an absurd situation where Washington loudly insists that Europe do more on defense but then strongly objects when Europe’s political union—the European Union—tries to answer the call. This policy approach has been a grand strategic error—one that has weakened NATO militarily, strained the trans-Atlantic alliance, and contributed to the relative decline in Europe’s global clout. As a result, one of America’s closest partners and allies of first resort is not nearly as powerful as it could be.

https://www.americanprogress.org/article/case-eu-defense/



The US wants increased spending because many small European countries spend that money in the US.

Honestly, the interesting thing question here is: (A) Does the EU have to political will to bankroll Ukraine. (B) Will the US keep selling weapons the Ukraine, if funded by the EU.

I suspect (B) is a hard YES. Anything would end US military industry.

On (A) I'm less certain, the EU has had a hard time finding consensus. The EU can do big things, even when it's hard, the EU did so under covid.



> Europe as a whole has clearly overtaken the US in terms of Ukraine aid [0]

0. https://www.ifw-kiel.de/publications/news/ukraine-support-af...



I didn’t mention NATO, Ukraine, or the Budapest memorandum… Defence is only a part of this. The economy is a big part. Europe is far too reliant on US tech for example. Given US citizens can’t be trusted not to elect a lunatic the US should no longer be relied upon in any capacity.


> Given US citizens can’t be trusted not to elect a lunatic

I mean, that's true for any democracy. The EU has its fair share of them elected to high offices.



Tell me about ways your life in the US was ever seriously negatively impacted by who got elected to the EU commission? Complaining about cookie popups or the GDPR doesn't count.


France enstated a very unpopular ruling of raising the minimum retirement age to 68 IIRC. This sets precedent and started having the US discuss the same thing. So potentially that decision will affect me long term via precedent.


I don’t think this is right. I believe they raised it to 64 which is still 3 years earlier than the US.


The flip side of this is that the NATO countries have traditionally toed the U.S. stance on diplomatic matters, even on issues that are quite unpopular at home. The understanding abroad is that the U.S. can dictate what it wants, but then the Allies will simply drag their feet.


More Danish men died per capita than American men when the Us invoked article 5 and had us in the Middle East for the nth time.


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I look at the regulatory capture of tech in the US and applaud the EU regulation that can't get traction in the companies' originating country.


>>> Ukraine isn’t in NATO

Ukraine’s potential NATO membership is one of Russia’s main demands for ending the war. Additionally, Ukraine participated in the coalition that invaded Iraq in 2003.



> Ukraine isn't in NATO.

Arguably the US isn’t either anymore . It is pretty clear that Trump won’t enforce Article 5 when Russia is the aggressive party. Which, by itself, might be a preparation to take Greenland. Both US and Russia are already interfering in the upcoming elections there.

It doesn’t sound crazy anymore, considering the shitshow we’ve seen the last four weeks sounded crazy before the inauguration.



Similarly to the U.S., European countries are also democracies and it is a fact of life for us that administrations and leadership change. Today it’s the U.S. that’s not a reliable partner, yesterday it was Poland or someone else. Authoritarian regimes like to criticize this as unstable, but it’s worth noting that this surface level lack of stability also means frequent recalibration and stress testing. In consequence there is a deeper stability and fitness.

The point of a democracy is to also have guardrails by splitting up executive, legislative and judicial powers - the U.S. is still not a dictatorship. European leaders know this, and professional politicians know that you can go hot and cold very fast. Today there is drama - tomorrow might rapidly turn over and flip.



And to get even more practical, “stability” is a comfort word rather than proof of a local optimum. We are not surprised when a dictatorship subdues an uprising because we are not surprised there was an uprising.


It seems that this was a very cold and unexpected shower for all of us in Europe (maybe except Hungary) and now there is a big focus on working together against our common enemy and finding other more reliable partners. It's a pity we were relying this much on Americans for so long... Now we have motivation to change approach. And do it fast!


>they need to take control of their own destiny

They could've understood this in 2014 when Nuland said "Fuck the EU"[0], and the US pressed on with the coup in the Ukraine setting off the chain of events that has led us all to where we are now.

>Given the American people voted for this guy twice

American people voted twice for George W. Bush, the second time after the illegal invasion of Iraq in 2003. This might have given a hint.

[0] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957



I know this is pedantic, but the system selected Bush in his first election. Vietnam veteran and Southern Senator Al Gore won the popular vote. Only in his second election, as a wartime President, did Bush win the popular vote.


I would add to that that it wasn't even a regular EC victory the first time for W Bush, but the conservative supreme court gave him the win [1].

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_v._Gore



This is important -- as in, history books important. Two things: whomever won was going to inherit a balanced budget, and (in hindsight) be able to claim wartime priorities due to a pair of terrorist attacks. Those are highly influential for Gen-X and later generations, and not honestly impactful at all for Boomers and prior generations. Bush did not carry younger voters in either election.

In 2001, the Supreme Court ruled that Florida, counting too slowly yet not carefully-enough, could not fully count their ballots. Every other state had successfully counted, but the Court sat through Florida's legal arguments, even though the state was a poster child for inadequate election planning. So, the popular vote would not matter. Statistically, if you don't count Florida, Gore's districts accounted for 60% of American GDP, and Bush's only 40%. This statistic becomes only more lopsided: in 2024, Biden would lose and election even though Trump represents only 30% of American productivity.

Anyway, in 2004, today's median American was still a minor. Giuliani would give the convention address for Republicans in New York; he re-used then-Senate candidate Barack Obama's catchphrases. It was the highpoint of his career. He would only be noteworthy among the unusually-named group "white ethnics" of the Republican Party from then on.



Thanks, I didn't know that


What we are seeing from Europeans in response is rather weak sabre rattling.

They don't seem to give an impression of being able to work out a coherent policy or show any initiative.

The EU leaders, include Ursula Von Leyen speak big noble sounding words, but do very little.



You can say the same about Trump, except words are not noble. Loud noise but do very little. Mainly pushing ally to accept the surrender terms.

Btw, EU spent more than USA, both military and financially.



I hope that changes soon. America is marching towards becoming kings of the world or completely isolated until this admin goes out to pasture. I hope nobody wants to go back to kings.


We can do both: prepare for a future without the US, while at the same time trying to make the best of the relationship with the current madcap US government. I don't think there's a conflict between those two. Completely burning bridges at this point seems unwise.


It's not a matter of taking control. For many reasons, starting from ww2 and later the U.s. summarized the west population common values and ethics, in a very simple and sharable way. In Europe this is not possible because there is too much cultural distance between the countries, but we are all equidistant from the U.s. That's why we are all NATO allies and why fundamentally for the u.s. eveything is possible. It's something that we all agree upon because otherwise we would be arguing with each other.


They weren't bending the knee. They were treating Trump like a toddler because that's the best strategy to get concessions from him.

Look at the theatre of the UK giving him the "unprecedented" letter from the King.

Talk of "bending knees" just makes macho idiots think they're winning. It's more like distracting your really drunk friend with something shiny to stop him starting a bar fight or walking into traffic while hoping when he sobers up he'll change for the better, not continue his slide into becoming an permanent asshole.



The historic strategic opportunity is for all of what remains of the free world to join the EU and become the 'rules based order' hegemon. Doesn't need to be literally the EU, a similar kind of organization would work.


Rules based order never meant anything. Really it was just predictable stability.


You can argue it’s been this way for a while, but it’s clear now that the US is no longer the leader of the free world.


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Brit here. What freedom do you think I don’t have, that you as an American does?


As I said personal freedoms. Freedom of speech, right to bear arms off the top of my head. These may not be important to other countries so they may not feel their lose of them as anything important. Hence my statement we may in fact view freedom differently one from one another.


Is this a parody? the US is talking about annexing territory from allies, cosying up to Putin and purging the state apparatus of anyone non-compliant.


To be fair, the US is also talking about annexing territory from non-allies, too. Maybe we need to annex territory comprising widely varying climates and degrees of strategic value?


I said allies because, although I don't personally agree, I can see all argument for why the "leader of the free world" would be taking on tyrants and dictators, whereas no such argument can hold water when they're threatening countries that rate higher than themselves on the democracy index


And taking away women's rights.


I don't equate personal freedoms with conquests. If you are a threat to our country I give no cares for what we do to you. If your nation has to be thrown on the pyre of Americas freedom..so be it.

Alec I can't respond to your response. But no it wasn't a parody. I don't actually think we are cozying up to Putin. Europe keeps throwing money at him, we are just trying to end a stupid war. The "purge" is more of a fact finding to see who is wasting our money and how. No one is being killed, jailed, or tortured. I would however not mind if many politicians end up in jail. People forget previous presidents have fired over 350,000 federal employees, the sky didn't fall. But the national debt did for a time...just saying...



If Putin just rolled in and took a couple of the states of the USA, you think it would be a “stupid war” for the USA to defend itself?


That’s not even remotely comparable. The United States and Ukraine are vastly different in terms of military capability, geographic positioning, and strategic importance. Putin annexing a couple of U.S. states is a laughably unrealistic scenario—he can barely hold the territory he's taken from a country bordering his own.

The war in Ukraine is tragic, but it’s not our war. The idea that we must commit endless resources to it just because it’s happening is not a rational foreign policy stance. A stronger America means prioritizing where we spend our strength, not blindly throwing resources at conflicts that don’t directly threaten us.



I'm taking that a "yes" in response to my question?


> If European leaders don't watch this and realise they need to take control of their own destiny they're idiots. Several European leaders visited this week bending the knee to try and stave off tariffs.

European leader are desperate because they realize obvious truth - US will soon implement regime changes all across Europe... European elites are simply not up to task of dealing with this new revolutionary era.



Personally most Trump supporters I know can only hope for a more Trumpian successor to Trump. Basically if JD Vance continues on his path he is looking like a sure thing for the Republican nomination obviously, but if any of Trump's tactics work he has a decent chance overall to ride that wave.


I suspect the coming economy though will weigh in.


I bet the economy of U.S. will only prosper under Trump and Vance.


I'm already betting against that with my portfolio.


Kudos for being straightforward and putting your money where your mouth is. I wish that you'd come back with the results in 4 years.


I'm happy to. And if I am wrong about the economy, it won't be the first time.




Because extrapolating with little data is stupid.

https://xkcd.com/605/



It’s clever to pick the word “prosper” rather than grow, or stabilize, or build, or strengthen. It’s also clever to slip Vance into it, which assumes either he wins the ongoing succession, or loses it and moots your bet.


about as sound of a bet as joe biden winning a gold medal in decathlon in the next summer olympics :)


JD Vance, and Elon Musk for that matter, and really everyone else lacks the one thing even Trump haters admit Trump has: charisma. Even my feminist ex-wife loved him on the apprentice. Even to this day she think's he's a funny guy and is entertained by him. Fact of the matter is his charisma has formed a cult of personality around him.

JD Vance, Elon Musk, Ron DeSantis, all of these guys who think they'll be able to take over the cult lack the key ingredient - the personality. Musk has a sort of cult among specifically the HN crowd, but we are small and generally people clock him as a weirdo creep.

There is no successor to Trump, his movement dies with him. His age is our saving grace.



I have a feeling your dislike of Trump and possibly even conservatives is clouding your judgement. Vance is well liked by basically all Trump supporters.

If Joe Biden has proven anything, it's that voters will vote for someone they barely like if they think it's helping their cause.

The only issue in play here is how many voters think lower crime, less wasteful spending, less racist hiring practices, and less illegal immigration is something they like. If they decide those things matter to them, JD is more than likable and capable enough for them to get behind.



The elephant in the room though is Europe. Trump wants Europe to step up and act more independently. Pay their fair share for NATO. Increase their active militaries.

Here's another fact to remember: Trump told Europe to kill Nord stream pipeline during his first term. He didn't want them tied economically to Putin. He didn't want Europe to depend upon Putin! Why? Because he's Putin's ally? Or maybe he is trying to make strong, independent countries that act as a deterrent.

That would be a hell of a deterrent, instead of old people with no kids droning on endlessly about NATO.



In Germany, we just voted two man-babies (Merz and Söder) into power.

The only hope I have, is they want bolster their ego with a strong EU.



European Democracies need to start their own Alliance.


So, should Europe just roll over and wag its tail?


The leaders of Germany and France don’t see Ukraine as part of their destiny. And that’s their right.


Sources?

I've seen the contrary from Germany

https://youtu.be/K-yAvfGxQXE



Merz (CDU) is the new chancellor-elect, Scholz (SPD) was the previous chancellor (although really hed of a weak, unstable three-party "traffic-light" coalition). Weidel (AfD) also doubled voteshare to 20.8%. The SPD and also the Greens lost at last week's election, Habeck (Greens) quit, and they will both have less influence, and the Greens might not even be in the next coalition. Merz/CDU will be a main factor in the next coalition govt's position on Russia-Ukraine.

Clearly each of the above parties have differing views on Russia-Ukraine, just like Obama/Biden/Trump. That's how coalitions work. It's very different to the US two-party presidential system, where you can directly measure a leader's power by their majority in seats or voteshare.



I'm confused at what you're trying to say or how it relates to GP, but the very first statement is wrong, Merz isn't "chancellor-elect", that's not even a term anybody uses in Germany. He's merely the leader of the party that got the highest share of votes during the recent elections.

It is of course extremely likely that he'll become the next chancellor in a coalition with the SPD, but technically it could all still fail and lead to new elections. Unlikely, but not impossible.

Out of the parties you mentioned, mainly only CDU and SPD are relevant because it's the only realistic coalition (apart from decisions that require a 2/3 majority like reforming the debt brake). They're both pro-Ukraine although to different degrees (Scholz was dragging his feet quite a bit). Merz in particular has been rather vocal about this and as the chancellor he's probably going to be setting the tone. I don't like or trust the guy particularly, but I believe him in that respect. So I think the video got it essentially right.



Unfortunately, there are European leaders like Hungary’s PM Viktor Orban who expressed support for Trump in reaction to this event.


Who cares about Hungary? Get France, Germany, the UK, Poland, the baltics and that's plenty enough


He has veto power as Hungary is part of the EU. It might sound strange from the point of view of the big guy that doesn't even recognize the International Criminal Court, but in the EU small countries have a voice too, although in this case it sadly works against the common good.


We (Germany) don’t need Hungary to order a thousand Taurus and a hundred thousand Drones and hand them to Ukraine. We don’t need Hungary to negotiate a nuclear umbrella with France. We don’t need Hungary to cancel F35, which will probably never be delivered anyways. Hungary, on the other Hand, needs Germany to pay most of their bills. It’s time to give Orban a taste of his own style.


You, Germany, need Hungary selling you Russian LNG, as you, Germany put your head up into your ass with sanctions against Russia.

You either change your position or your economy will continue to degrade and more of your factories will get closed and you will lose more positions on the market of automobiles and will get higher unemployment rate and higher unrest levels. And given your multicultural policy of welcoming Muslim immigrants - the unrest may get accelerated with just a few more "incidents" where someone rides into a crowd again or decides to start a jihad on some street in one of your cities.



Wow, the pro Russia brigading on this forum today is incredible. Absolutely wild.




Change their position how, exactly? Are you arguing for more or less sanctions?


Depends on whether Germany wants to participate in a war or prefers peace and good relations with countries important to their economy (either as one that sells them something or as one whose territory could be used as a market for the goods you produce and sell).


It's no more "strange" than US Senators from Wyoming or N Dakota or Vermont or Alaska having a veto. To pick one example, the US Senate veto is why the US consistently refused to recognize the Armenian genocide for many decades.

Hungary by no means has a veto on everything. The 27 EU member states vote on most issues by qualified majority (55% of member states = 15 countries, and >= 65% of total population). Only on a narrow set of issues (foreign, defense, finance, treaties, EU enlargement) they have a veto.



You think Germany and France are invested in defending Ukraine when the US isn’t doing the heavy lifting?


Who absorbed 5 million Ukrainian refugees? Europe, not the US. (Even Canada took more). And there could be millions more yet depending on the ceasefire/settlement arrangement.

Who paid € billions more in energy costs since 2022? Europe, not the US. [0][1] Germany in particular got crucified, and its manufacturing base fled to China (also in part due to the German Greens' historic Cold-War opposition to nuclear, nut that's a long story).

[0]: https://www.euronews.com/business/2025/02/24/three-years-on-...

[1]: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/feb/24/eu-spends-more...



Heavy lifting like sending 31 tanks while putin had 10000?


The US hasn't been doing the heavy lifting. It's been Europe.

They were doing the bare minimum under Biden, and are now actively helping Putin.



How is the US helping Putin?


All I'm saying is that Hungary means jack shit, they have no money, no strategic industry, no proper army


Funding Ukraine is not the "heavy lifting". The heavy lifting is when Putin invades Finland after taking Ukraine, and Germany and France are forced to respond militarily against a Russia aligned with the US.


Can we really put Orban in the category of "European leaders"?

Seems more like "Putin followers"



As the leader of a EU country, he can veto top-level EU decisions, so in that sense he is.


He can but it’s not a huge issue because the countries that want to act can do so outside of EU structures, which would be necessary given the UK isn’t in the EU.


EU needs a new structure for taking decisions.


There is an alternative structure - multilateral agreements between nations, ignoring the EU entirely.


That would be a good idea, indeed, at least for military matters.

It would eliminate the "Orban" problem.



Yeah, good luck with establishing that. The 27 EU member states are still separate sovereign nations, and nationalism has been on the rise in recent years.


Wars are exactly what’s establishing things like that.


You’re referring to the nationalism I presume. That’s true, but it doesn’t help the overall situation, unless you believe that we should just let Putin do what he wants with Ukraine.


Everything must be voluntary and well-informed, except in self-defence.

You can't force people, you can't trick people.

I may be wrong, but I think enough voters were deceived by Donald that the election was no longer well-informed.

That's how he got into power.

To the extent that's true, USA no longer had genuine elections.



Riiight. Just when someone you don't like gets elected as a president - you instantly claim that that country isn't democratic anymore.


We need a constitutional convention to fix the legislative branch. People in Wyoming should not have 10x the representation as people in California. Without the complicity of the legislative branch Trump's power would be limited much more.

We need mixed-member districts and eliminate the senate<->state connection and/or repeal the 17th amendment. Bicameral is no longer suited for the world we live in.



Unfortunately short of a revolution, there is no realistic way to pass any kind of meaningful constitutional amendment in the US. And it's hard to imagine that fact changing, which makes me pessimistic for the long term future of the country.


Hence constitutional convention.


Sure, but how do you get agreement on that?


You can change the rules of the game, yes. Then we will simply be playing a different game, and strategies will update accordingly.


This is exactly what VP Vance and President Trump has asked the EU to do. They want them to pay more for their own defense... So, yeah.


They also turned the US into a liability. I don't think any western nation will rely on the US for anything for a long time.


Presumably their defense is our defense - that was the whole point of NATO.


You must have missed the visit from the French president. Macron whooped Trump harder than Stormy. That's probably why his fragile little ego needed someone to tell at.


A lot of Americans missed that cue. I think that old-fashioned Americans avoid applying psychoanalysis to politics because they’re afraid to fit in with cynics.


Trump tried to grope him, and he wasn't having it. I don't understand how anyone thinks this is acceptable.


Yes. I was speaking in admiration when I said Macron whooped Trump.


More like the europeans acted like adult gentleman. Not like a frustrated and insecure imbecile, as the trend seems to be for representatives of the people in some places. Do not mix up handling a dangerous child with loaded weapon in the hand nicely with relying on him. They go home and organize the way the situation deserves. Trump is a dumb loser anyway, riding the waves of mass frustration without comprehending much beyond whistles and bells and shiny shiny things, a child would find center of the life.


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That's why I voted for Harris. I hate her guts, but she would have at least tried to not sink her ship. Trump seems to think that a fire in the engine room will make it go faster...


You’re looking at the burning pile of shit that president Musk is creating and still thik that a Harris presidency would be worse?


Harris would not have done anything like this and you know it.


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Please explain how Trump stops the war short of allowing a Russian genocide of the Ukrainian people.


Please explain how Harris stops the war.


That’s not how this works. You made a statement, now back it up.


You are aware that Trump has _not_ stopped this war right? He has floated certain some possible agreements with Ukraine, but his terms have not been agreeable to the Ukrainians. If Trump actually wants Ukraine to come to an agreement with the US, he'll have to come up with a deal that is acceptable to them.

So yeah up until now Trump has done _nothing_ to stop this war. He's really only proved to all the US' supposed allies, that the US is not trustworthy. At this point, Trump should just shut up and stop pretending like he's trying to reach some peace agreement. He should just stop sending funds to Ukraine as he obviously wants to do and just leave the discussion because he's really no longer relevant.



Why is it the responsibility of the US to single handedly stop the war?

We don’t know what Harris would or wouldn’t have done. But we know that what Trump is doing is not going to end up well for Ukraine.

Dealing directly with Russia as if it was up to the US to decide for everyone else isn’t just callous, it’s extremely dangerous.



Eventually the Russian economy would've caved in. The ruble was in a free fall up until Trump decided to betray the free world.


The Russian economy still can cave in. The war isn't over.


Sure, but at this point it seems like Trump will soon start to actively support the Russian economy.


I don't think Trump will bring peace to Ukraine and he seems to be operating on an "America-First, forget about Europe" policy.

However, if by "genociding Ukrainian people" you mean eradicating the population of Ukraine that considers itself distinct from Russia, Trump could conceivably stop the war by letting Russia hold onto territories it owns, while having the rest of Ukraine as a protectorate of various European powers that may eventually bring it into the EU.

This might result in a populatin exchange as Russian speakers get sent to the Russian-held parts of Ukraine and vice-versa. This would not be good but it would not be a genocide either. You can also look at the Indian partition for an example of how this could go horribly wrong.



That is not a possible outcome.

Russia does not care the slightest about the territory, it is purely a war about ideology and influence.

The only acceptable outcome from a Russian perspective is a Russia aligned government in Kiev, or a peace deal where they will rebuild their army and end up stronger than Ukraine followed by restarting the war.



Problem is I don't think Russia is ever going to agree to to the point of Ukraine becoming a protectorate of the EU without having legal authority to veto EU military intervention in Ukraine. And I severely doubt Ukraine's is going to agree to give up to give up those lands without a security guarantee that Russia can't veto.

Sides, Russia's got nukes. It's nuke's are the whole reason why the US and Europe has been reluctant to intervene. If, in this scenario, Russia invades Ukraine again and then simple say that it will launch it's warheads at any nation that attempts to intervene, what then?



> Trump could conceivably stop the war by letting Russia hold onto territories it owns

So, only ethnically cleanse the areas they already started on. Genocide in a limited and specific way is still genocde.



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> Zelensky isn't just a dumb clown, he got tricked into starting a war

How do you have a political discussion with someone whose reality is completely upside-down to your own? With someone whose grasp of reality is also factually wrong?



[flagged]



> Facts are usually universal and rarely disputed.

The parent poster claimed that Zelensky started the war.

How do you even begin having a conversation with someone who disputes the main fact on how this war started: Vladimir Putin, the dictator of Russia, invaded the neighbouring sovereign nation of Ukraine.



Crimea was a disputed region. Russia had claims for it right after the Soviet Union got dissolved, as Crimea was always a Russian territory, not Ukrainian. But secretary general of Soviet Union acting as an individual, without any referendums or something alike decided to just give Crimea as a present to Ukraine. That even happened in the times when it didn't mean much: Russia and Ukraine were the save country - Soviet Union, that's why no one bothered to correct him then and there. It was more of just a gesture. And how can it not be? There was a Russian military base on that peninsula! Who lives on that peninsula? like >90% are Russian nationals. It was Russian de-facto, but just not de-jure.

Granted by United Nations - every nation has a right for self-determination, so Russia did some not-so-legal actions by holding a referendum there, just so that the people of Crimea could exercise their right for self-determination. Which they then successfully did and overwhelming majority voted for being with Russia, rather than with Ukraine.

These were just the facts, not opinions.

Now there is the place for some opinions: you think (as far as I understand) that this is when Russia started a war.

And I say I don't see these events as Russia starting war, since the annexation of Crimea was voluntary and happened without a single shot.

I don't know of any examples of wars happening without a single shot.

I think the consequential actions of Ukraine (that got mad by the fact that it just lost some part of their country due to separatism) is when the war started.

That's when a few other regions claimed they'd like to join Russia as well and that's when Ukraine attacked them.



A referendum carried out by an occupying force means nothing. That's a fact.

If Russia were serious about self-determination of the Dombas and Crimea regions, they'd have first proposed a referendum audited by international observers, and pressured Ukraine diplomatically to accept.

Instead, Russia chose to invade. They started the war, and they can stop it and withdraw at any time they choose. Every death from the Ukraine war is entirely on Russia's head.



That's not a fact, that's an opinion. Because the sentence isn't detailed enough: means nothing to whom? If the vote results are this definitive, where the majority is so overwhelming that it simply can't be forged - what is even the point of having a referendum? It was merely a formality: no one disputes the results, after all. The international independent observers were invited to said referendum, but they decided not to come. And it is obvious why: because they aren't really that independent after all.

Personally I realized that if you dig deep enough you realize that all those documents, formalities, treaties and agreements - they don't mean much, as we aren't some tenant entities with an overlord above us who could judge us in case of disputes. International (I don't even know what's the right word here) situation happens mostly as a consequence of who's more powerful and who controls what.

U.S. invades other countries whenever it likes.

Why can't Russia do just the same?

> They started the war, and they can stop it and withdraw at any time they choose.

The comic part of the situation is that Ukraine can stop it any time they choose as well.

But neither side wants to stop it THAT way. Each side wants to win in this situation.

If Ukraine feels so lucky as to fight a Goliath - let Zelensky be that David and send as many soldiers to death as he please until the unrest inside his country ends his presidency or the other side's forceful actions lead to the same result. Harsh, but kinda fair. Know your fights. Don't fight with a Goliath alone, if you are a tiny David, and if you are - group up with others and bow to them if the success of your very existence becomes dependent on their help.

Zelensky didn't bow low enough and now gets what he deserves.



> That's not a fact, that's an opinion.

It's a fact. A free and fair referendum cannot be held by an occupying force, because their very presence biases the results.

This is true even if the occupiers are honorable. It goes double for a leader like Putin, who imprisons and assassinates his political opponents.

> U.S. invades other countries whenever it likes. > > Why can't Russia do just the same?

In both cases it's wrong. But if you want the realpolitik answer, it's because the US has a competent military.

> If Ukraine feels so lucky as to fight a Goliath - let Zelensky be that David and send as many soldiers to death as he please until the unrest inside his country ends his presidency or the other side's forceful actions lead to the same result. Harsh, but kinda fair. Know your fights. Don't fight with a Goliath alone, if you are a tiny David, and if you are - group up with others and bow to them if the success of your very existence becomes dependent on their help.

David won against Goliath, remember? That's the whole point of the parable. At least find a metaphor that supports your argument.

Besides, isn't finding support exactly what Zelensky's been doing all this time? The US may be withdrawing its support, but European support is increasing. And in terms of population, economy, and military spending, Europe is a lot bigger than Russia.

You say Ukraine should know their fights, but doesn't that apply more to Russia? They expected the war to be over in 3 days, and it's been 3 years. Putin vastly overestimated the strength of his own army, and underestimated the resistance Ukraine would put up.

How much longer can Russia's reserves actually last? Those steadily rising Russian interest rates indicate an economy that's edging ever closer to collapse.



> It's a fact.

No, facts can't contain undefined properties like "free and fair".

Who should decide whether a referendum is free and fair?

No one.

It's basically the question of whether people of that region agree or disagree with the referendum enough as to defend their position with force.

As you can see - Crimeans are quite content they are part of Russia and not in ruins under a nazi regime.

(That's also an opinion, the fact is that there's just no unrest.)

> But if you want the realpolitik answer, it's because the US has a competent military.

If Russia's military is so incompetent - Zelensky is going to win ~ soon, let's wait.

> David won against Goliath, remember? That's the whole point of the parable. At least find a metaphor that supports your argument.

You missed the point: Zelensky sees himself as a David from the metaphor, but reality is that he is a clown, not a leader, not even a politician, but rather a parody to one.

> And in terms of population, economy, and military spending, Europe is a lot bigger than Russia.

Yep. But Russia is at war and Europe is only cuckoldily fighting right now. Let Europe get into full blown war if they want to participate so much.

> You say Ukraine should know their fights, but doesn't that apply more to Russia? They expected the war to be over in 3 days, and it's been 3 years. Putin vastly overestimated the strength of his own army, and underestimated the resistance Ukraine would put up.

They got Ukraine military in the chokehold at the start of the operation, then Zelensky agreed to proceed with diplomacy and Russia pulled its forces back.

But then Ukraine got some spoken assurances from US and EU of receiving money and military help from them. And then Russia had to start liberation from the border again. It goes quite slow for a few reasons: first of all, Russia isn't in a hurry: it gets really valuable first hand experience in modern warfare, the kind that almost none gets (even US hasn't fought a real war (without bombarding the area to the smithereens first) for quite a long time). Another reason is that Russia successfully mobilized its economy for war time. Just in case it has to go into a bigger war now/later, but it needs time to produce more new weaponry. Another reason for going slow is that Russia isn't really fighting a genocidal war, where everyone on the other side is seen as an enemy, they just demilitarize Ukraine, fighting just its soldiers, trying not to harm civilians, and that's not so simple, actually.



> No, facts can't contain undefined properties like "free and fair".

Free and fair are very much defined. It's why in democratic countries we have election observers and secret ballots, to remove or at least reduce possibilities of voter coercion.

> If Russia's military is so incompetent - Zelensky is going to win ~ soon, let's wait.

It remains to be seen whether Russia is incompetent enough to fail completely. They still have 4 times the population as Ukraine.

> You missed the point: Zelensky sees himself as a David from the metaphor, but reality is that he is a clown, not a leader, not even a politician, but rather a parody to one.

He's done remarkably well defending his country for a clown, don't you think?

> Yep. But Russia is at war and Europe is only cuckoldily fighting right now. Let Europe get into full blown war if they want to participate so much.

In that, we agree. Russia's barely making progress in a war with an opponent that, on paper, shouldn't have lasted a week. I'd be very interested to see how they do against a military with 4 times their funding.

> They got Ukraine military in the chokehold at the start of the operation, then Zelensky agreed to proceed with diplomacy and Russia pulled its forces back.

Oh, is that the Kremlin's reason for all those humiliating retreats in the initial months of the war?

> It goes quite slow for a few reasons: first of all, Russia isn't in a hurry: it gets really valuable first hand experience in modern warfare, the kind that almost none gets (even US hasn't fought a real war (without bombarding the area to the smithereens first) for quite a long time).

Ah, I see. So the 700,000 casualties Russia has incurred so far was worth it to get valuable, first-hand experience. Presumably the first lesson is: don't incur 700,000 casualties when fighting against a country a quarter your size.

> Another reason is that Russia successfully mobilized its economy for war time.

A "war time economy" comes at the cost of the civilian economy. Every man sent to Ukraine is one who can't work at home. Every piece of ordinance, every destroyed tank and plane, represents wasted investment that could be used to create civilian goods and services.

You need only look at the steadily rising interest rates to see the signs of an economy that's spending more than it's earning. Russia has poured billions into the Ukraine war; so has Europe, of course, but Europe's economy is 14 times larger. Europe can afford to outspend Russia.

> Another reason for going slow is that Russia isn't really fighting a genocidal war, where everyone on the other side is seen as an enemy, they just demilitarize Ukraine, fighting just its soldiers, trying not to harm civilians, and that's not so simple, actually.

Given the devastation to cities in Ukraine, they're very bad at avoiding civilian infrastructure. I know the Russian army's weapons are outdated and inaccurate, but are they really that inept?



> The comic part of the situation is that Ukraine can stop it any time they choose as well.

When stopping means the genocide of your people and you personally being tortured and murdered, “stopping” isn’t really an option, is it.



But there's no genocide in Ukraine towards Ukrainians even now when "cannons speak": liberated civilians aren't killed or imprisoned, instead, criminal Russia dares to give them homes, pensions and employment (and not a forced one)!


Weird how the Ukrainians don't seem to want to be "liberated". They're acting almost as if they're being invaded by a warmongering dictator who wants to conquer and plunder their country.


One word: Bucha


Here's another word for ya: hoax.


Funny how you finally regurgitate the Kremlin's talking points...

Ukraine had 0 chances from the start? But how come Russia couldn't get Kiev in 3 days as announced in Feb 22? How come Russia needs to ask North Korea for soldiers to supplement its own troops?



Chances of what? Of winning in a war against a far bigger country with bigger military complex? It could just avoid the war (if followed Moscow's demands (and Moscow didn't demand much)), but I think it had no chances in winning a war.

As for the 3 days - you seem to be uninformed, just google how fast Russian forces captured Gostomel airport near Kyiv.

Then Zelensky threw white flag and peace talks started, but then Zelensky changed his position and now it's a war to the last militant Ukrainian.

As for NK - they were just on an excursion to learn from Russian battle front, since NK is now Russia's ally and this was done just for the case if/when this war changes into a WW3.



Everything you wrote is a verifiable lie


Liberates them from…what, exactly?


I really, really, hope you dropped this: “/s”.


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Please stop spamming the thread with the same youtube links over and over.


Oh, no. Don't do that. Europe footing its own bill for its own defense and increasing their industrial output is the last thing Donald Trump wants. Really.


I think most Americans of various stripes would endorse this. Europe is more than welcome to saber-rattle on its own budget.


I think most Americans value freedom and reject tyranny.


Yeah and we don't need Europe to be free. Europe needs America. We are not equals in this.


Donald Trump just turned the USA into a liability. I don't know how anyone can think this is a good idea.

Like people thinking killing USAID was a good idea. Guess who is going to pick up to collect the good will USAID gave? China, or possibly some other country that thinks the US hegemony was a bad thing.

How can people not see that Trump is weakening USA?



If China wants to start paying for queer theater in Lesotho, I say they are more than welcome to! But I wouldn't hold my breath for this to happen... Have a Nice Day :)


Don't be silly. Have a look at all the waste that is being claimed and you will notice that the things that are questionable (apart from the irrigation in Afghanistan, which had some unfortunate effects) all sin up to less than a half percent of the USAID budget.

Plus that the people doing the cutting have no clue what they are doing. First the 50 millions dollars for hamas condoms and then not even knowing how government contracts work. It is like watching the evening of amateurs, but where the stakes are people's lives and the world order.



If there's any mineral, water, or food supply advantage to doing so they'll be there with Pink Yuen before the undrunk US coffees cool on the table.

China is nothing if not pragmatic and there's central party policy vs. China's regulated but somewhat free market here.

It was the US after all that forced the sale of Grindr by the Chinese Beijing Kunlun Tech to San Vicente Acquisition for ~ $600 million. I dare say fear of communists having a direct line to toe tapping Republicans drove that.



Am American and yeah no.


How is defending against Putin's encroachment on a soverign country "saber-rattling"?


If X is encroaching on Y and you're all the way over in Z, you're not defending yourself; you're deliberately getting getting involved in someone else's problem. Maybe the numbers are in your favor, or it's "the right thing to do," but Europeans have been using similar rationale to destroy their continent over and over again for centuries. I'm not judging at this point—it's probably just in your blood. The rest of the world just wants you to pay for it from here on out.


This sounds a lot like being pro-bully. Also, it sounds like you dont unserstand what saber-rattling is. Putin is the one who is saber rattling. We are helping him pay for it by helping him steal land from Ukraine.


They could soon realize China and Russia may actually make better allies. Might not be what the consensus on HN prefers, but maybe it’s time to look east.

We need more cooperation for collective benefit instead of cooperation for the sake of profit



Ukraine was Russia's ally. Russian businesses operated in Ukraine. Russian entertainment was made in Ukraine. There was effectively no borders between Russia and Ukraine. Ukraine was one of the most pro-Russian countries among the post-Soviet countries.

Look what being an ally with Russia brought.



That’s not really accurate. Ukraine was not a member of either defence or economic blocs, like CSTO, or Customs Union, headed by Russia. Also some of the Ukrainian governments were effectively against relying on Russia, Yuschenko 2005-2010. Yet, there were extensive economic ties up to 2014, and some cultural ties up to 2022. Its not black and white.


>Look what being an ally with Russia brought.

More like what becoming an ally of the US in 2014 brought.



Syria rolled over because HTS improved the quality of life in Idlib. Ukraine resisted because russia turned donbas into a corrupt mafia state. People overlook the importance of the little things. Most people are fence sitters but are very aware of the facts on the ground.


>Ukraine resisted because russia turned donbas into a corrupt mafia state.

In this picture Crimea is conspicuously absent.



Ah yes. It was the US that invaded and illegally annexed Ukraine's territories, got you.


Wait who would ally with China/Russia, Europe or US? I mean either of those are a deathknell for Europe. China will not defend them against Russia. Heck I am not sure China can keep its hands off of Russia's oil fields as they lack their own resources. It would be fun to watch though.

What collective benefit are you referring to exactly that isn't going to be profit? You think Russia and China care about your ideologies? China will exploit you and Russia will do what Russia always does. They all want to gang up and invade America?? They would have better things to do then that if Europe became their pet.



China, famously exploiting poorer nations through infrastructure investment and a focus on trade.


China has little to nothing to gain from being an allied of Russia.

China needs to export to the West to survive. The Russian market is not able to absorb what China needs to sell.

China has already distanced itself from Russia. China’s happy to sell Russia what it can buy, but there is no real upside to that relationship.



China benefits either way it goes.


> We need more cooperation for collective benefit instead of cooperation for the sake of profit

And you think that will happen with China and Russia as allies? Jesus. This thread is brigaded to hell by trolls.



I got this weird dissonance - like this was a science from a TV show about the White House, because no-one, I mean no-one would ever do that inpublic. Apart from common courtesy, even basic management training says praise in public, criticise in private.

Just doing this in front of the world’s media … it’s hard to understand



It makes more sense when you interpret it as an attempt at humiliation, not diplomacy.


I'm less convinced this was planned because I've met people like this in real life. Criticizing someone for showing disrespect while being incredibly disrespectful yourself seems like abusive parent 101.

Also, the fact they talk down to him about the war in Ukraine of all things is pretty shocking, like he wouldn't be there if he didn't understand the situation in Ukraine (it's not like he was there being extorted for minerals because he thinks things are going amazingly). It seems weird from a global policy perspective but on brand if you're just an asshole. Either way, truly an embarrassing day to be an American.



Yes I hope this wakes people up and inspires the country to elect sober thoughtful people again. I'm pretty cynical though so I've learned not to expect much from modern politics.


One thing that gives me hope is that politics has always been a mess (there are some times of stability but they never last forever). Though I think a big thing we need to do is strengthen democracy in the US, get rid of first past the post elections, gerrymandering, the necessity of large donors required for campaigns, unequal representation in Congress, etc. I think if we break the two-party system politics in the US would look better.


I will add, the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Popular_Vote_Intersta... was created to "convert" the Electoral College into a popular vote.

The only way that can happen is if several red state legislatures agree to the Compact. This Compact is useless to replacing the Electoral College if only blue states sign up; these states would have voted blue in an election, anyway. It tips over to 270 if several red states sign up and allocate their electoral votes against the wishes of their own red state constituencies. Would that be democratic? It is obvious why the growth of the compact has stalled at 209 votes; it is irrational for a red state to join it. It is also true in the mirror image if it were a "red state 270 vote compact," no blue state would join it.



Restructuring the elections, congressional seat allocation, etc. would require Constitutional amendments. Unlikely to happen. It is baked in the cake that individual votes are weighed unequally between the 50 states of the Republic. The only other way to do it would be an organic mass migration of voters that equalizes the population in all 50 states. The Census would eventually reflect this and the seats and electoral votes would be equal in all states, as I understand it.

We already have a "third party" now in the sense the GOP is unrecognizable from 20 years ago; the old GOP died out, like the Whig Party.



> Restructuring the elections, congressional seat allocation, etc. would require Constitutional amendments.

That's not always true. Proportional representation in the House would help a lot, and that could be done by passing a regular law. (The current "one member per district" law is only from 1967: [0])

[0]: https://act.represent.us/sign/proportional-representation/



> Restructuring the elections, congressional seat allocation, etc. would require Constitutional amendments. Unlikely to happen.

As a Brazilian, I think it's unfortunately more likely than you think. Here in Brazil, we got a completely rewritten constitution (the 1988 constitution) after our USA-backed military dictatorship ended. So if the current USA government becomes a dictatorship (which unfortunately does not seem unlikely enough right now), there's a good chance the USA will also get a brand new constitution after all that mess ends, hopefully one with better electoral mechanics.



I agree, but we're essentially asking for a unicorn for each of those favors. Just getting one of those done with the current societal setup could easily be a decade+ of very heavy campaigning. I'm not convinced I'll see all 5 in my lifetime, and I'm not super old as is.

It is more possible now than ever though with unprecedented communication. But to paraphrase Warren Buffet a bit: "We (the rich) are a lot better at this and we're kicking your ass right now". Imagine if we could have even a fraction of the youth anger from Tiktok aimed at such issues above.



You underestimate how important it is for people who perceive themselves as alpha males not to admit they were wrong about someone for eight years. Ain’t going to happen, they are already falling in line.


I have seen some people start to realize that Trump isn't this infallible hero over this, so it is working. But Some fans will diehard, very very hard over trump. Just gotta keep chinking at the armor, almost everyone will have a breaking point.


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You must recognize some irony in how disproportionately democratic party supporters are being punished by the current republican government, whereas before, the chance of you losing your job for supporting Trump was nearly zero (as it should be). Yet here is your government, explicitly seeking to weed out politically non-compliant people for 'efficiency'. Public service is supposed to be apolitical; this witch hunt is patently unconstitutional.

I don't understand how you can write that comment in good faith. It is demonstrably illogical.

The only Trump supporters I know of who lost their jobs due to politically motivated incidences were January sixers, to which... I'd say it's unsurprising to see people let go from their jobs for breaking into the capitol building.

Your talk about power structures is also ironic. Power structures are being built right now. Some are torn down, but don't be fooled; something is taking its place. You may not notice because you think it serves you, but consider for a moment at least that this could be exactly what the structure builders want.



It is not by chance that people getting money from the state are more left leaning


Why aren't the US Red States left leaning then, as the greatest benefactors of Federal support?


By definition red states are republican leaning. Easy question


The hard part explaining the contradiction with your earlier assertion that "people getting money from the state are more left leaning."


I was discussing my parent's comment which stated "your government, explicitly seeking to weed out politically non-compliant people"


Red States would starve to death without being fed by Blue States. They’d move to Blue States and be homeless and beg for scraps :)


Red states are the welfare queens of the US.


Red states and billionaires. It’s not surprising that they’re politically aligned, and the government is run by billionaires.


Can you clarify this assertion? If a lot of public servants are left leaning, make no mistake about them: they’re working for their incomes, regardless of political affiliation.

As other commenters have pointed out, a staggering amount of federal funds are paid to red states who are not working for these payments.

If this doesn’t debunk what you’re saying, then what exactly are you saying?



Elon Musk certainly gets an overwhelming enormous amount of money from the state, and he is certainly not left leaning.


I'd honestly love to know what from this particular interaction (Z & JD) makes him more appealing?

Ignoring any other reason or policy how did this interaction impact your thought process?



History shows that those who support monsters are indeed remembered and judged accordingly. The world will change in a few years.


> The worst that’ll happen is some downvotes

They're going to Liz Truss the budget. Economic chaos will be bad for everyone with a 401k. Probably that's the route to getting rid of them, just as people used the price of eggs against Biden.



Another fascist takes his mask off


I'm definitely glad that Trumpism has brought the dark underbelly of America so out in the open. At least I'll be able to avoid horrible people like you IRL.


Believe me, everyone around you knew your views already.


typical abuser mind games. Nothing Zelensky said is proportional to what Trump or Vance said.

For his base, they won't care, and this event will justify the next few actions that the US takes.



I'm an American and what's actually embarrassing to me is the hundreds of millions of dollars we have spent keeping a meat grinder running that has claimed the lives of hundreds of thousands to a million good men and women. Likewise the Biden family's involvement in corruption in Ukraine stinks to High Hell and I cannot be moved to regard these two phenomena as coincidental.

I actually do not care one bit where the line on the map is drawn between Ukraine and Russia and I find it very weird that so many of us claim to. Think what could have been done instead, with all the wasted lives, time, and money. THAT, is embarrassing!



And to fabricate consent, probably


And a performance to the MAGA base. One thing we've learned about Trump is, he'll do and say whatever outlandish thing if it'll gain / keep his votes.


They literally said: “This makes great TV” - and both right-wing Fox and the Russian media are cheering.

It worries me that no-one in the Republican Party looks at it and says: Russia is our enemy right, why are we doing exactly what they want and benefits them?



> It worries me that no-one in the Republican Party looks at it and says: Russia is our enemy right, why are we doing exactly what they want and benefits them?

Why would they? GOP senators literally spent independence day in russia a few years back. Multiple GOP congressmembers voted against various resolutions to support the people of ukraine[0], condemn russia for its kidnapping of ukrainian children[1], or direct the administration to collect evidence of russian war crimes[2].

The GOP has had a strongly pro-putin wing for a decade, and Trump has been in russia's pocket for longer than that: ignoring claims that he's a hard KGB asset, the trump family has been reliant on russian money (investments and loans) for at least two decades. With trump being the uncontested leader of the GOP, the party is very much pro russia.

[0]: https://clerk.house.gov/Votes/202251?Page=3

[1]: https://clerk.house.gov/Votes/202488

[2]: https://clerk.house.gov/Votes/2022121



I believe this is exactly what sebazzz finds worrying. Combined with the fact that:

* Russia will betray the GOP in an instant if it serves their geopolitical goals

* Russia is increasingly allying with Iran, North Korea and probably China

* Russia doing well out of the Ukraine invasion will embolden China to move in on Taiwan and potentially other Pacific territories



> I believe this is exactly what sebazzz finds worrying.

But none of these are anything new. This is all years old stuff. It does not make sense that it "worries", either you've never cared before and things have not changed, or you should be several steps beyond "worry".



It's fair to be more worried than usual in light of recent geopolitical developments.


But the votes you cited have 3, 9 and 7 republicans? How do you arrive at "the party is very much pro russia" if for all this time republicans have always voted for Ukraine military aid? What about the other almost 200 people? The pro-Putin freakshow has the White House sure, but can he really turn the entire republican party to side with our enemy? Against all the interests of the military industrial complex that pays for all their campaigns no less.


It looks like he can, to be honest. It's pretty sad.


Russia is an enemy of the Left and "wokeness" specifically at this point, for sure. I'd oddly posit that Russia is at least semi-aligned with the "sane & conservative" values that the MAGA movement represents, so it all makes sense.

Personally, I think all Western nations need to be in partnership-with and promoting Democracy in a relatively-sane and ethnically-white country like Russia. Short of a few eastern-European countries and Israel, Russia has until recently been the only such country that hasn't fallen prey to "pretty please invade us we'll even pay you" kind of left-wing socialism that's fallen upon most of the west. A movement that oddly hasn't fallen-upon any non-majority-white country around the world.



I agree. I'd even go further; I suspect this show was about redefining the term "diplomacy" for the conservative base.

I think it's a step in a larger plan to start moving the Republican foreign policy platform into include a greater emphasis on diplomacy. Since diplomacy's been seen as the "weaker and less effective" path for so long it needs a rebrand in order to sell it to a strength-worshipping constituency.



It's Putin's plan to isolate Ukraine, and what a stroke of luck Trump and Vance are completely on board with Putin's rhetoric. Soon he can affect Ukraine elections and retake it. The war angle didn't work as he wanted.


Ukraine’s constitution doesn’t allow for elections during martial law. This is pretty reasonable, and the UK did a similar thing whilst we were under threat of invasion by the Nazis.

Realistically it’s not possible to hold a free and fair election while:

- A foreign power would bomb polling stations

- An invading power would try to interfere in other ways

- Millions of voters are displaced (within and outside the country)

- Millions of voters are in the armed forces at the front line

- Voting districts are occupied by an invading force and can’t really vote

That last point is pretty key, too. How do you ensure only Ukrainian citizens vote and aren’t doing so with a gun to their head? What if you manage to do this and Russia refuses to recognise your election because “you counted votes from legally Russian citizens” (which Russia claims the occupied regions are)? Then if you don’t count those votes, those Russian oblasts suddenly become Ukrainian and Russia claims you disenfranchised legitimate votes to rig an election.

All of this is why Russia (and by extension the USA) position of holding elections in Ukraine is complete nonsense.



The public bullying is intentional.


Very much so. Trump even said it, "This is good TV". What an embarrassment.


And Zelensky ended up apologizing, rather quickly:

https://x.com/CollinRugg/status/1895618072905384351

The whole thing was just sad to watch. Politics have hit a level of inanity unimaginable..



Earlier in the same interview he's explicitly asked if he wants to apologize to Trump and says "no." Possibly a real-time softening but also "sorry for this [situation]" not really being the same as an apology.

I wouldn't be very surprised if there was some thaw in relations that comes with an apology, smiling and making nice for the cameras. But I wouldn't be at all surprised at the reverse, particularly considering that Trump tendency to come down in Putin's corner.



Trump should apologize and probably resign while we are at that. But the conservatives want all the good old times without the honor code that existed to some degree back then.


Trump called Zelensky a dictator in public, did he not? Zelensky, democratically elected, president of a democratic country, invaded by a tyran, a non-democratic and extreme anti-western attitude, was called a dictator. That is hard to understand, until you realise Trump tries to man-handle an extortion deal out of Ukrain...and now because the man doesn't bend over backwards he's disrespectful? That man showed a lot of courage in my book.


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Can people just think instead of regurgitating what they hear? To your definition Churchill was a dictator too, right? Or somehow he wasn't?

A war is happening, and how can people think they can just hold a nicely done election... Ukrainians don't even care about that, that rhetoric (propaganda) comes from a foreign nation.



Postponing elections during a war is nothing new, even in liberal democracies.


i'm not saying it's anything new... i'm pointing out that if we view Zelenskyy’s role through a Roman lens, where the term dictator originates, his broad wartime powers—granted under martial law, with elections and normal governance suspended—mirror the temporary, crisis-driven authority of a Roman dictator.


Why would we view him through a Roman lens with regards to a word used today in a modern context?


Because that's when the word was created and is the most applicable description of what zelensky is... What else would you call him?


A war-time president? The UK and Canada postponed elections during WW2, but no one is calling Churchill a dictator.

Using millennia-old definitions does nothing to further discussions.



Come off it, stop trying so hard.

He's not a dictator at all as his term does have a guaranteed end, once the war is over. I'm sure he would hold an election if he could, just to prove people like you wrong, but it is illegal for him to do so during wartime as per the Ukrainian constitution, which cannot be amended during wartime either.

The mental gymnastics are crazy.



Please don't break the site guidelines like this, regardless of how wrong someone else is or you feel they are.

If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it.



Sorry Dang <3 Thanks for your hard work!


That's sort of what Trump was subtly trying to get at -- Zelenskyy's political power continues as long as the war continues. If we take the worst interpretation of his character that he is willing to do whatever it takes to hold onto power for as long as possible ... then he has an incentive to sabotage any peace deals.

I personally don't think that's likely, but it is a valid argument depending on how skeptical you are about Zelenskyy's motives.



I thought it looked like an episode of The Apprentice.


You're witnessing the collapse of American soft power, economic power, and our transition to an authoritarian isolationist state. Some of us accept it while others still have to grasp the situation.

The death of the post cold war neoliberal world order and the death of the American century. to be replaced by... ?



The thing that I find strange about it is that it's being pursued actively, from the inside, as opposed to it being forced on them by an stringer outside force (ie. China). The US has chosen to retract from it's global power and influence.

Mind-blowing, except, kinda-sorta, for the fact that the effort is helmed by a (short-term thinking) businessman rather than a seasoned politician with familiarity with, or even the ability to consider, long term consequences of actions and decisions and the interplay of other countries and their leaders.



Nearly every decision made since the late seventies has been with the intention of making the most money in the shortest amount of time. Not just in government. In everyday people’s lives, in companies.

And it always fails long term. We lose so, so much and then we just ignore it and do it again. We’re getting to a point where we don’t even remember where we started.

This has been a long time coming, IMO. You can only be selfish for so long before you implode. If everyone is selfish, you’re living on borrowed time.



Oh, Russia is still the outside force pulling Trump's puppet strings. They just did such a good propaganda job with "Russia Russia Russia" that people are afraid to say it.


Based on trump's wants around Canada and Greenland it doesn't sound like you'll be very isolationist, more like a bully.


China will benefit the most from this. Europe has zero interest in backing up the US in a fight for Pacific dominance. Good luck trying to form a trading block that excludes China now.


I think this is exactly right, but very discordian. It shouldn't happen, it makes no sense. No country in the world has benefited more from the post cold war, neoliberal world order, than the US. It's the very foundation of all of America's wealth and power. It makes zero sense why the imperialist-core would willingly step down from it's bloody iron throne it has worked for 80 years to create for itself. What was the point of it all then? All the wars, all the coups, all the covert-action, all the forced liberalization, the neocolonialism and the establishment of the liberal world order?

If this is genuinely what is happening, this can only be some sort of hostile takeover enabled by the legitimate grievances in the domestic depoliticized populations. Neoliberalism made itself vulnerable to be destroyed from within, it's greed went too far, the inequities to much to be sustainable, the post-political ideology became so extreme that it forgot the old lessons of empire, bread and circuses.

Or as Merkel and Thatcher said, "There is no alternative". Wanna bet?



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Are we giving up our bases? Sending all personnel home, disbanding some brigades or a fleet? No? Then we are not saving any tax dollars. We’ve just made it more expensive to maintain our global empire.


Europe has always been willing to defend itself, but the US had interests in keeping EU dependent on the US for defense; It was a win-win because US could keep their large global sphere of influence and the EU could spend money on other things to benefit its citizens.

The EU will soon announce major defense spending in partnership with the UK, and the US' large sphere of influence, as well as America's superpower status will continue to decline. Whether that's good or bad is yet to be seen, but the world will rebalance itself - China is already throwing money at places where USAID is no longer present to expand their influence.



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If by "resolving" a war you mean forcing the victim into a surrender and making the agressor a victor than sure.

You seem to forget the obligations the US has when they signed (and made Ukraine sign) the Budapest memorandum. In which Ukraine gave up the world's third largest nuclear arsenal in exchange for protection of their sovereignty. The US since 2014 (invasion of Crimea) failed to uphold their part of the deal.



> If by "resolving" a war you mean forcing the victim into a surrender and making the agressor a victor than sure.

What other option is there? In all options, Ukraine loses territory in order to stop the fighting. NATO is not going to escalate with Russia, so clearly Ukraine won't be kicking Russia out.

And even if Ukraine did kick Russia out, then what? Russia can just invade again a year later. Is this just an endless war? Is the West going to pay for an endless war?

Seems like the better approach is for Ukraine to get the best deal with Russia they can.

> You seem to forget the obligations the US has when they signed (and made Ukraine sign) the Budapest memorandum. In which Ukraine gave up the world's third largest nuclear arsenal in exchange for protection of their sovereignty. The US since 2014 (invasion of Crimea) failed to uphold their part of the deal.

The US had an obligation not to expand NATO to Ukraine, but hey, here we are.



> The US had an obligation not to expand NATO to Ukraine, but hey, here we are.

Both Gorbachev (the leader of the USSR at the time) and Jasow (higest military leader of the USSR at the time) both say this was never promised to them [1].

And also; Do you really think they would have just let it out the agreement if this was really promised to them? The USSR just forgot to ask to put it on paper?

> And even if Ukraine did kick Russia out, then what? Russia can just invade again a year later. Is this just an endless war?

So what is the difference exactly with a "peace deal" now? Russia did exactly the same thing with Crimea. They invaded, signed a cease fire and then broke it. Whats going to be different this time?

> Seems like the better approach is for Ukraine to get the best deal with Russia they can.

They had a deal in 2014 after Russia invaded Crimea. And Russia chose to break it. That's besides all the deals (such as the Budapest Memorandum) Russia decided to break when they invaded Crimea in the first place.

> Is the West going to pay for an endless war?

Purely from a military perspective, the west is getting a pretty sweet deal with Russia putting it's army in the wood-chipper.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoZoR8BUfgk



“Foreign Minister Lavrov and other senior officials have reiterated strong opposition, stressing that Russia would view further eastward expansion as a potential military threat.”

22 Jan 2008

https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/08MOSCOW265_a.html

Despite Russia sharing its redlines with the West in 2008 NATO continued to expand its sphere of influence into Ukraine including backing the coup in 2014.

So yeah, it’s unsurprising that Russia escalated each step of the way as well.

I’m not arguing Russia is right, I’m arguing a war was an obvious outcome.

Russia has already paid a price in the war and clearly it seeks some sort of solution.



You know Ukraine could have sided with Russia and avoided this saga the whole time, right? The real victim are the Ukrainians that had the suffer this war because Zelinski and their deep state sold the country to Biden’s team interests. As a civilian, I’d rather live in an authoritarian and peaceful Russia than a war torn Ukraine where I am forced to be drafted.

But hey, that’s just me.



They do not have that option. You know who died by the thousands in meat wave attacks on Mariupol, armed with decades-old rifles? Citizens of the "Donetsk People's Republic" and "Luhansk People's Republic" who were forcibly drafted.


Agreed. Chamberlain used Britain's soft power for world peace with great effect.


You can't cherry pick one example and ignore all the times choosing war was the wrong choice - Vietnam, Cambodia, Iran, Libya, Iraq 2, Somalia, Afghanistan, Panama, Grenada, Syria, Lebanon, Dominican Republic.

But yeah, good point about Germany!



What if the US "pushed for peace" in WW2 instead of helping allies?

> America is using its soft power to resolve a war going nowhere.

The war could have been won if the same Republicans who are now in power weren't blocking military aid in Congress during the past 2 years.



You really think the current conflict is the same as a world war?

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the US (and Europe) are absolutely not willing to fight Russia to win this war. It's not worth it.

So the war will end eventually in a stalemate. So the choice is to either do it now, or wait until another million people die.



It’s lost all respect from its allies and its enemies are excited at the new world order that has been built. Frankly I had admired the US my whole life and I now detest it and want Western civilisation to shun it completely.


Soooo, what has Trump concretely done and offered to resolve this war


He is totally willing to give Ukraine to Russia. Such generosity!


> it’s hard to understand

It's not. If you're a remotely rational American right now you are experiencing large amounts of grief.

This is just the denial stage of grief.



Grief is a good way to put it. I know everyone is reinforcing their priors, and mine has been the "Housing Theory of Everything" for the last decade -- and longer than that if you count my mid-2000's (admittedly naive) urban-environmentalism advocacy. It's was a pretty niche area for advocacy until recently... I'm pretty sure I was the first official Strong Towns member in SF.

I'm just blown away that even after the first Trump presidency, and now during the second, that the left still has no serious intention of addressing any of the legitimate grievances that working class has. It's genuinely bananas to see so many people fleeing California for Texas and hearing "good riddance." I'm basically broken at this point, and I feel like fighting for basic, practical and sustainable policies, policies that just make sense, is pointless.

https://worksinprogress.co/issue/the-housing-theory-of-every...

https://www.strongtowns.org/about



The moderate left (I.e almost all of the left in positions of power) don’t have answers. But, the rest of the left does. The thing is they’re wildly unpopular.

For example, we all know, left and right, that the healthcare system in the US is broken. End of, no debate. It’s broken. But, even the slightest hint of a reasonable single payer system like the rest of the west is met with immediate and severe backlash.

We’re at a place where we’re not even willing to humor, let alone try, any solutions. The conservative approach is “we’ve tried nothing and we’re all out of ideas”, but the left is really not far off from that either.



So many of the further-left’s answers follow the progression of the “step 3: ???” meme. I guess these days we might call it “concepts of a plan”. Even when the goals sound great, the paths to reach them are vague or non-existent (or even worse IMO, depend on questionable or simply outright illegal means).

You mention healthcare…I lived in Colorado in 2016 and we had a ballot measure for a constitutional amendment to establish universal healthcare. Great!

However, in the months leading up to that vote there were so many questions about details that the organizers of the ballot measure just met with some form of, “We’ll let you know after the amendment passes.”

I was a federal employee at the time, with an FEHB plan, and I was concerned that I would wind up paying for both the FEHB plan and the state tax that would come with the state plan. I sent multiple emails and asked at an information session but no one involved in organizing the ballot measure would even entertain the question.

Is it any wonder the measure failed 80-20?



I mean, I simply disagree. The progressive and socialist left's solutions to 'the housing theory of everything' narrative have pretty much failed wherever they have been implemented, especially in the United States.

That doesn't mean I don't think they have any good policies, they certainly do, the issue is that the structure of their policies typically does not have feedback loops that incentivize change when change is needed. There is a reason Stockholm has a 20 year wait list for getting an apartment. With the exception of the Vienna model, which I wholeheartedly support, but that American progressives have all rejected in practice (even if they pretend they don't), every single far-left housing policy system seems to be captured by incumbent electorates, based on seniority, without any willingness to make sacrifices for the next generations.

I hope I made clear from my post that I think these policies come from problems that do not align neatly with political parties, and one of the main reason I see the American political system failing is that incumbent electorates are unwilling to make any sacrifices to help each other.



Couldn’t agree more. Not a peep about land use reform or even any real action on income inequality. DNC offers nothing and is somehow surprised people rejected inaction.


I mean, I think it's worse than that. I grew up in Austin, and still have family there. The fact that a lefty like me is regularly siding with state Republicans against local Democrats on housing policy is legitimately insane.

Austin is basically the only city with dropping housing prices right now and that's happening in large part in spite of city policy, not because of it. Yes, the Republicans are creating tons of new sprawl there, and that's bad, but it's a crisis, not some long term concern we can fiddle with the knobs over. Obviously, the sustainability parts of me don't like sprawl (especially from a Strong Towns perspective), but it's not like the Dems there are upzoning anything more than a token number of corridors.

I've had a perpetual criticism of my fellow Dems since my days of naive urban-enviornmentalism: as long as "the bus is for other people" we won't have good public transit. The same goes for housing. As long as lefties don't actually want to live in a multi-unit European-style townhouses in walkable neighborhoods, we're not going to actually do anything substantial about housing or climate change, but with token projects we can pretend we will... and proceed to keep failing working people.



That’s because the Dems aren’t so different than the GOP when it comes to a lot of that stuff. They’re still the party of the rich, just a different set of rich. The DMC made it clear in 2016 that it rejected the liberal economic policies when it shut down Bernie (who I think could have beat Trump). And radicals like AOC have been a thorn in the side of Pelosi and her ilk. The Dems try to play it safe, but I think if they embraced the radical side they’d find a base to match the MAGA energy and win. That’s what it’s gonna take.


> when it shut down Bernie

Bernie lost the popular vote in both the 2016 and 2020 primaries.



He did. But the DNC made sure that even had we won it, he wouldn't have won the primaries.


I also believe that the two biggest domestic problems in the US are housing and transportation. I’m not sure if it’s a recoverable situation


Education sits upstream of nearly everything, imo


> the left still has no serious intention of addressing any of the legitimate grievances that working class has

Cliché at this point, but worth remembering the Democrats are not a leftist party by any means.

Until America sheds the anti-communist gene and produces an actual, bold left-wing movement rooted in Socialist thought, all you'll have is chauvinism wrapped in politeness optics.



I've been going through a huge amount of grief since the election. I thought I had moved onto acceptance, but anger keeps resurfacing.


It's a cyclical process.


Stay strong, use this as a opportunity to become a better person. Just do the opposite of Trump / Musk, it will get you so close to being a saint.


I started by donating $100 to Ukraine just now.


Careful. The way things are evolving, this could soon be seen as financing of a "terrorist state".

Make sure you cover your traces.



You’re not wrong, but also, please stop spreading cowardly messages. Take appropriate precautions but don’t be preemptively compliant.


>Just do the opposite of Trump / Musk, it will get you so close to being a saint.

yeah that didn't really work out that well with Kamala.

Problem is, over half the country just doesn't give a shit. Its easy to lose yourself on places like Hacker News and Reddit and think this is the general sentiment, but in reality, on the average 8/10 people around you in US either didn't vote or voted for Trump.



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If you think it's fake you're misunderstanding its purpose.

Its purpose is not to describe how the brain works at a mechanical level, its purpose is to be a useful concept. And it is a useful concept.



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Not all dollars spend translate back to direct dollars earned, but rather political power or influence - which itself is a catalyser for other benefits. But some don’t seem to understand that.


Some understand it fine but are realizing the influence we get isn't worth it. Stop acting like we are idiots for not wanting to engage with geopolitical power games as much as we have been. We know our history, we know our place in the world, we understand all the trade offs, and we may actually not feel they are worth it at this time.

It is the constant refrain of "if they disagree with us they are not informed or are not as intelligent as we are". It is as if they can't believe people could have informed opinions that differ from theirs...wild...



"America first, you don't like it get out" is not typically what one says when they have a nuanced understanding of geopolitics.


Why can’t it? Stating that America should prioritize itself is a direct and unapologetic stance. Brevity is not a lack of thought—it’s efficient communication. Dismissing a position because it’s concise rather than engaging with its merits is a weak argument. I recognize that some dislike this perspective and will seize any opportunity to undermine it, but that doesn’t make it any less valid.


Well you seem to have edited it out of your comment so I'm not entirely buying your case that it was an example of effective communication.


Stop acting like we are idiots for not wanting to engage with geopolitical power games as much as we have been.

The time for that attitude was the early 2000s, when we started two wars that cost us 30 trillion dollars. We're currently disposing of old military equipment that we would otherwise have to spent money destroying. We're also getting commitments from them to buy our military equipment going forward.

It's ridiculous and disingenuous to claim that supporting Ukraine is playing World Police or even a financially meaningful engagement in foreign affairs. We're giving them "store credit" to get rid of our closeout merchandise and getting a ton of value in return.



The assertion that America's wars cost us $30 trillion is not accurate. As of 2012, the national debt stood at approximately $16 trillion, with a significant portion resulting from domestic spending and the financial crisis, not solely military engagements. Our debt is not that large because of the wars, are they contributors of course, are they the long pole in the tent, not even close.

America is under no obligation to provide endless support to Ukraine. The notion that it's our duty to act as the world's arsenal is misguided. While assistance can be strategic, perpetually fueling a conflict without a clear path to peace is neither noble nor wise. It's time to prioritize diplomatic solutions over an indefinite cycle of military aid.



I mean the US is spending money on US weapons and arms and sending them to a foreign country. We're not sending them cash. The military industrial complex in the US benefits.

Not to mention the huge benefit to us that this equipment is field tested in a way that it can't be done by just testing. That feels a little crass, but the first major comflict of this century has changed somewhat how war is fought.



Sure, the military-industrial complex benefits—but the military-industrial complex always benefits. That’s not a justification for continued involvement; it’s just a fact of how defense spending works. If anything, this strengthens my argument; why not prioritize military production and readiness for the Pacific, where our actual strategic interests lie?

As for "field testing," that’s a pretty thin silver lining to justify indefinite support. Wars evolve regardless, and we don't need to offload billions in weapons to foreign conflicts just to learn how modern combat works. If we’re going to spend, let’s spend where it serves America’s direct security, not someone else’s.



Trump could have just told Ukraine they weren't going to support them anymore. He didn't need to have a public press conference and publicly act like a petulant child demonstrating how truly pathetic and weak his leadership really is.

The fact that you aren't upset by the way Trump and Vance acted is incomprehensible to me. How are you not ashamed that they are leading the US?



My understanding is that a deal was in place. President of Ukraine publicly reneged on that deal and took what was supposed to be more of an announcement as an opportunity to grandstand and renegotiate the deal that had been worked out.

Things got heated. I am not really that upset about this. I have been in far worse meetings with far less at stake. I am glad that our leaders are not letting people we are trying to help push us around. Usually such meetings are not public and basically most people don't get to see the sausage making of diplomacy.

I am more embarrassed that previous Presidents let foreign leaders come to our country and stomp for candidates or make demands of us.



> My understanding is that a deal was in place.

Have you seen the deal? Or are you just speculating? For all we know, Trump actually told Zelensky the US would provide security guarantees to set up this spectacle. Or maybe in fact the deal was never in place and Zelensky was just repeating for the hundredth time what it would take for Ukraine to sign a deal and then Trump and Vance flipped out when hearing something they already knew was a cornerstone to his terms?

Presumably we'll never know what actually went down. But we do know that Trump and Vance act like weak little children and are totally incapable of actually mediating between the parties in this war. In the future, they should have the decency to stay out of this discussion and let adults do the talking.



Everyone has their own take on how they behaved. You say they acted like children, others say Zelensky was disrespectful. Either way, I’d rather have leaders willing to push back than the so-called "adults" who let this war start and then kept it going on autopilot.

Whether a deal was fully locked in or not, what we do know is that previous leadership had years to find an off-ramp and failed. The last group of "adults" spent years writing blank checks and getting nothing in return. If the current approach shakes things up and forces real discussion, maybe that’s exactly what’s needed. Looking out for America’s best interests doesn’t mean playing nice—it means knowing when to say enough.



> I’d rather have leaders willing to push back than the so-called "adults" who let this war start and then kept it going on autopilot.

What are you talking about? Putin started this war and I don't see Trump pushing back against him.

So far Trump has _failed_ to broker a deal to end this war. That fact is incontrovertible. At this point I don't understand why Trump doesn't just walk away. If he's not willing to help Ukraine anymore, he can just say so and explicitly change US policy. Everyone already knows that's the truth anyway. He should stop wasting everyone's time.



Putin started the war, but U.S. policy played a major role in keeping it going. The so-called "adults" spent years writing blank checks, refusing to push for peace, and actively discouraging negotiations.

Trump has been in office for barely a month, and you're already declaring his efforts a "failure"? Wars don’t end in 30 days, especially when the previous administration spent two years fueling it instead of pushing for a resolution.

America operates on its own timeline, not anyone else's. If we want to change our approach to Ukraine, we should do it in a way that aligns with our interests, not because of some artificial urgency. The fact that negotiations are already moving forward with Putin should tell you something: a real process is happening. If the previous administration had done its job, we wouldn’t even be in this mess.



You are also literally living in the comments.

Stop trying to make your opinions bigger than there are.



You know I don't actually follow that take to be honest. I find this an interesting and important topic. So I am responding where a statement trips my fancy. I mean I am getting down voted all the time so not like I am doing it for the attention. I have opinions on this and have been thinking about the geo political climate intently for the last few years, as such I see no reason I can't chime in. Is there some policy about not being overly engaged in a topic I was unaware of?


Trump said toward the end of it, "This is gonna make great television." Remember he's a reality TV show star, not a diplomat or politician.


Yeah it's incredible when the mask drops this far.

Trump is a pathetic fuck, but this lines up with how he only ever plays to the domestic audience in advancing protectionist interests. We're feeling that dissonance because this kind of protectionist thinking is extremely rare, basically unheard of these days for world leaders.



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Yeah, and the emperor has no clothes


I think it's an act. They're putting on a show for Putin.

There's that old saying about best friends and worst enemies...



Which is why Zelensky mishandled the event. He should have just kept his mouth shut in front of the media. Especially since he's not as articulate in English.


> no-one, I mean no-one would ever do that inpublic

I agree. It seemed to me like Zelensky initiated the public display. Both trump and jd Vance we also commenting on his inappropriate public statements.



"Grab her by the pussy" Trump and "childless cat ladies" JD Vance aren't really people to listen to on what statements are inappropriate.


On the minerals front, the US doesn't need anything from Ukraine. Most of the minerals mentioned, except titanium, are un-mined deposits. Or things the US has plenty of already, such as oil, natural gas, coal, and iron.

Here's a rundown:

- Rare earths:

I've mentioned the MP Minerals, Mountain Pass, CA mine before. The US doesn't have enough rare earth refining capability, and China won't export the technology. So US ore goes to China for processing. Or did, until DoD paid for a separation plant at Mountain Pass. That problem is close to being solved. That new separation plant is running. A plant for the final step, making magnet-ready metal, has been built in Texas, again by MP Minerals, and it's about ready to open.

What's happened with rare earths is not that they're rare. It's that China undercut US prices so much that the Mountain Pass mine went bankrupt. Twice. In 2015, there was a rare earths glut. Look at WSJ rare earths articles back to 2011.

There are large un-mined rare earth deposits in Colorado and Wyoming, with startups talking about mining them. Whether this makes economic sense is unclear. If all those start up, the price will crash again and they all go bust.

Three years ago, the US rare earths situation looked bad. Not today.

- Uranium

The US has plenty of uranium resources. Canada and the US are historically the biggest producers.

- Titanium

Titanium ore has supposedly been discovered in Tennessee. See https://iperionx.com/ Are those guys for real? Not clear.

- Lithium

The US produces about 75% of the lithium it uses. New deposits have been found in Arkansas:

https://www.usgs.gov/news/national-news-release/unlocking-ar...

And in Nevada:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCWeZiVsotc

- Graphite

China is the leading producer, but Canada and Norway are ramping up. There hasn't been US production of natural graphite since the 1950s. US production of synthetic graphite satisfies most US demand. (https://pubs.usgs.gov/publication/pp1802J) Several new synthetic graphite plants are being built in the US.

As we've seen in rare earths, when the cheaper sources raise their prices, domestic production increases. It seems to take about three to five years to get a big mining operation going.

Quietly, during the previous administration, there was funding for US mineral projects in rare earths, graphite, and lithium. It's no secret, but most coverage is from sites that cover mining and minerals.



The minerals deal made no sense.

1. If you wanted minerals because of strategic concerns, you would not source them from a State which has been invaded by Russia. This is not a stable, reliable source.

2. The deal we saw details for was a jointly controlled fund for investment, where 50% of profit of State owned mining and related infrastructure would be deposited. There's no mention there of mineral supply to the US.

I did not understand it, and I still see no sense in it.

What was actually going on?

We saw Donald try to bounce Z into signing : "you have one hour to sign this".

That obviously shattered any trust that might have been there.

I don't think we ever saw the text of that first deal.

Then the second deal was just this jointly controlled investment fund, which looked like a face-saver.

In any event, USA is now out of the game.

A coup is in the process of occurring, and once the judges and courts are subverted, will be complete.

All this with the deal and D and Z is basically water under the bridge; EU has to stand on its own two feet now, and that's the situation here and now, however we got here.



The mineral deal has at least three purposes[0]:

1. It provides a way for Ukraine to become a client of US defense instead of a an aid recipient. That is, it allows Ukraine to pay for the weapons it receives.

2. It puts Americans on the ground in Ukraine in a non-military capacity. This introduces a new diplomatic dimension, as attacking or occupying land with significant American presence is not desirable.

3. It provides money for an investment fund for rebuilding Ukraine.

Whether this is an effective strategy, I don't know.

[0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2025/02/27/minerals-...



> 1. It provides a way for Ukraine to become a client of US defense instead of a an aid recipient. That is, it allows Ukraine to pay for the weapons it receives.

The text I saw was for the formation of a jointly (US/UA) owned entity which would decide how to reinvest 50% of the profits from UA State owned minerals/related infrastructure.

Unless "reinvest" means "give to US", I don't see this point happening.

> 2. It puts Americans on the ground in Ukraine in a non-military capacity. This introduces a new diplomatic dimension, as attacking or occupying land with significant American presence is not desirable.

In what way? we're not talking about any US State investment, and any US private investment would be crazy, given the war and possibility of future war. No one would invest there.

> 3. It provides money for an investment fund for rebuilding Ukraine.

It's money that exists anyway, only now it's in a fund jointly controlled by US/UA rather than being controlled only by UA.



> reinvest 50% of the profits from UA State owned minerals/related infrastructure.

Small correction: 50% of Ukraine's government revenue from natural resource extraction (minus some expenses).

> Unless "reinvest" means "give to US", I don't see this point happening.

You're right. There may be some options when the fund is actually formed, but the current deal almost exclusively benefits Ukraine (financially).

> In what way? we're not talking about any US State investment

It's up to the US how much they want to invest. If they put a lot of money into the fund, they get a lot of control over how Ukraine starts rebuilding. But due to how the fund is financed, the US will be bought out in the long run and the fund will turn into a Ukrainian sovereign one.

> It's money that exists anyway, only now it's in a fund jointly controlled by US/UA rather than being controlled only by UA.

The idea probably being to allow US oversight. Ukraine is incredibly corrupt and its government is fighting a loosing battle against this.

If a corrupt construction contracter pockets 80% of the money given to him and Ukraine tries to prosecute him, he'll just move to Portugal and nothing is ever going to happen to him.

On the other hand, if the US files charges, that contractor is going to have a really bad time.

Combined with the much superior talent pool in finance and international business available in the US, a lot more money should find its way to its intended purposes.



> Ukraine is incredibly corrupt and its government is fighting a loosing battle against this.

I hear this of this. I lived there for a year, fairly recently, in Kyiv. I didn't particularly see it, hear of it, or encounter it. I remember one or two stories of people being convicted of taking bribes, that's it. I didn't see it around me, or hear it from locals.

I may be completely wrong, but I think this isn't any more of an issue than any other post-Soviet country, and with the war on, UA doing an awful lot now to sort it out, because it relates to survival.



US gets to decide how at least half the fund gets spent, so it's US businesses who get the investment and eventually reap the profits. Ukraine obviously doesn't have the cash to give back and it will never have any without reconstruction. This is one way US gets anything at all back at a pace it has any control over.

But you are correct that without security guarantees there will be no development, no reconstruction, no investments. The deal just does nothing.



> US gets to decide how at least half the fund gets spent

I may be wrong, but I understand it was "joint control", not "50% in USA".



why does the reason the Americans put boots on the ground as a tripwire change the logic on escalating vs backing down?


You can no longer trust the Washington Post as a reliable source of opinions, like those that you're trying to shill as facts.


I think there's two (perhaps more) possibilities you've overlooked, that may go some way to explaining this.

First, that Donald is not the master negotiator / business genius he claims, and is not open to taking advice from smarter people.

Second, misdirection. It may be something to draw attention - the whole 'who needs batteries for their car company?' thing - or it might be a decoy offer, never intended to be seriously contemplated, but will serve as an easy-for-the-dumbs-to-understand future-date hand-wavey explanation for why negotiations failed. (This seems more palatable if you already believe the current US administration is compromised.)



Third, if US owns the resources and Russia tries to seize it, US would have legit reason to send their troops to Ukraine.


The US has legal reasons now. Ukraine is a sovereign country and would be more than happy to accept US military bases. The US hasn't sent soldiers because they don't want to go to war with Russia


Why would US get involved now when they have nothing to gain and possibly escalate the situation to WW3?

If US owned resources in Ukraine, they have very good reason to deploy troops over there. Russia won't escalate the situation by attacking american resources and troop. This should slow down the war to a good extent combined with the cease fire agreements.



Your logic doesn't make sense. Why would Russia be willing to escalate to ww3 in the first scenario but back down in the second scenario?

And if getting involved will escalate to ww3, what difference does those resource deals make? Either american involvement (via NATO or this mineral deal logic) forces Russia to back down or it doesn't.



Presumably, if US already has all of the minerals it needs, the minerals' deal is going to do as much good as is current status quo.

After all, why would the US get involved when they don't need the minerals they'd have to lose?



US signed memorandum of security for Ukraine. Not involving into Ukraine war means: 1. Nuke is the only option to guarantee security. Everyone should get one. Iran, Venezuela etc. 2. If you have nukes you can occupy neighbors with little/no punishment. Taiwan is the next in line. 3. US is not an ally, could not be trusted in any way.

Sad to see how Trump is dismantling USA from it's role as a global superpower.



1. Nuke doesn't guarantee anything in current situation. Russia might blow up the nuke moment it arrives in Ukr.

2. US France UK has made it very clear that they can occupy and establish military bases in non nuclear countries without repercussions, especially in Middle East and Africa.

3. Memorandum was signed by multiple nuclear countries and none of thier troops are deployed in Ukraine. Besides US was the largest supplier of weapons in Ukraine.

US is hardly affected by Ukr situation. For them to get involved, there should be something at stake. If they owned something in Ukr, they would have reason to defend it with US troops. Russia won't escalate by attacking US troops or resources.



> First, that Donald is not the master negotiator / business genius he claims

We're talking about someone who appears to believe a trade deficit means you're somehow being screwed or getting the short end of a deal. That's mercantilistic nonsense. It's economical thinking on par with a child who believes Scrooge McDuck is a good capitalist.



I think it's likely they know Putin will not honor any peace deal. So they have to figure out a way to blow up this deal and blame it on Ukraine or they'll end up with egg on their face.


There is one way in which it could make sense. If the US is able to extract economic benefits from Ukrainian territory, then it is likely to help Ukraine defend that territory in order to get those benefits.

Now whether those benefits are lucrative enough to warrant the US' help, I think not, which is why the deal apparently included no guarantees. The $500 billion is completely bullshit - they're not worth that much.



I would be extremely surprised if the other half of this profit fund was not eventually meant to go into Trump's pockets rather than to the United States itself.


I think they realized this, and the only way Trump and JD Vance & team knew how to backtrack on it, was to behave like bullies and freeze Zelensky out. Since they are well known to be bullies already (but not always), this came sort of naturally.


"Fact check: 33 times Zelensky thanked Americans and US leaders" - https://edition.cnn.com/2025/02/28/politics/volodymyr-zelens...


>What was actually going on?

I really hope that Zelensky doesn't arrive back home with a bad case of novichok or polonium.



It's a miracle he's survived all these years.


I'm not convinced Russia actually wants him dead. They are doing fine with him there, and he has not done well at gathering support internationally.


EU and USA have provided immense support for UA, about 250 billion USD in total IIRC.

On the face of it, it's not obvious that he's doing a bad job.



This is a puppet government of the US that was installed in 2014 after they overthrew a Russian puppet government. Of course the previous US administration gave tons of support - Obama's people installed Zelensky, so Biden continuing the support makes sense. Biden's family has also made a lot of money in Ukraine under the current regime, so it was personal for him. As for Europe, this is existential for them and it's cheaper to spend Ukrainian lives on this than their own. What is missing is any other international support from parties who aren't directly interested in this conflict, like India pressuring China to stop supporting Russia.


This is nuts.


Where is it wrong, though? Here are a few pointers:

Ukraine was Victoria Nuland's project. Her CIA had a huge hand in the protests against Yanakovich (who was, in turn, an asset of Putin's GRU), and she personally had a hand in negotiating with Yanakovich on behalf of the protestors. You should read about the events in Ukraine in 2014. That overthrow led to the retaliatory capture of Crimea, where the US and EU apparently did not learn their lesson about how much of a madman Putin is.

As for the Biden Ukraine connection, I'm sure Hunter Biden is just secretly very talented at managing oil companies, which is why he was put on the board of Burisma in 2014, after Nuland's little coup. I believe the "10% for the big guy" quote was in reference to this deal, too.

As for this being an existential threat to Europe, I'm not even sure you need to be given the facts about having a madman like Putin edging closer to your borders, while also depending on him for energy.

Finally, on supporting your puppet governments: it's basic game theory that you should do this. Otherwise all the other ones (see much of Latin America) get overthrown.



>They are doing fine with him there, and he has not done well at gathering support internationally

I really do admire your ability to live in reality that is not at all correlated with base reality. And from an Iranian as well. I noticed that Trump and his team do this a lot as well, along with Putin. What do all of these have in common?



You've been breaking the site guidelines badly in this thread, such as here, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43222575, and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43221102.

There are other recent cases too (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43163494), and it unfortunately goes back a long time:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33227833 (Oct 2022)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29522959 (Dec 2021)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28979071 (Oct 2021)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16017108 (Dec 2017)

I don't want to ban you, so if you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules from now on, that would be good.

Among other things, that means no more personal attacks regardless of how wrong someone else is or you feel they are.



Sorry dang. I'll dial it back.


Appreciated!


He might develop a bad case of Azov Battalion.


I've seen speculation that rare earth mining is environmentally destructive enough that it faces massive (expensive) regulatory hurdles in the US. Much easier to pay politicians in less developed countries to do it there.

https://e360.yale.edu/features/china-wrestles-with-the-toxic...



Mountain Pass, one bankruptcy back, beat that problem. It took some new technology. The system is closer to closed-loop, rather than using huge amounts of water and producing huge amounts of sludge in evaporation ponds. That's what the mines in China do, and the sludge ponds are visible from orbit.

Here's the Sierra Club report from 2011.[1] They were OK with the mine. So was the state of California and the US EPA. Problem solved.

Then in 2015, after all this was working, China cut the price of rare earths.[2] Mountain Pass mine shut down, and Molycorp, the owner, went bankrupt. But the equipment was stored and maintained. When the price of rare earths from China went back up the next owner, MP Minerals, bought the assets and restarted operations.

This time, the new buyers made long-term deals with the US DoD and General Motors to guarantee a market at a price at which they could operate. That seems to be working.

Much news coverage of mineral issues tends to lack background. Better info is available, but it's on mining industry sites, in USGS reports, and in places most people don't read. Punditry is cheap. Reporting is expensive.

[1] https://www.desertreport.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/DR_S...

[2] https://www.forbes.com/sites/timtreadgold/2015/05/15/chinese...



One reason they're running roughshod over the EPA, among other agencies.


if there's one thing we can be sure of with the current administration, it's that regulatory hurdles aren't going to stop them doing what they want


Companies still have to follow state and local laws.


Not sure why you're counting Canadian uranium deposits on the American balance sheet.

So far at least, these are under our own control and we still have the free will to decide how they are traded.

Unless the new regime in the US really wants to show its true hand, I guess.

Maybe we can toss a 25% export tariff on them, since the US is trying to strangle our economy anyways.



Titanium is an odd duck here IMO. Titanium is abundant in the Earth’s crust, and titanium ore is fairly inexpensive. We use the ore for all kinds of unglamorous things, e.g. paint. The hard part is turning that ore into nice pieces of metal —- the process is complicated and expensive. While China produces an outsized share of titanium ore, the US has some large-scale operations that turn titanium ore into metal. As far as I know, the only real limit on our domestic production is demand, and demand is limited because the prices are far too high for most applications.

I recall various sources saying that we’re just about to have a revolution in titanium processing, kind of like how aluminum went from being more expensive than gold to being cheap. It hasn’t happened yet, and I wish Iperion luck!



I’ve heard many, many times that one of the biggest problems with nuclear power plants today is simply sourcing fuel. Obviously a large part of that would be due to international scrutiny and security laws, not to mention trustworthy employees to hold up all of this, but I was seriously under the impression that actually GETTING it is the difficult part.

Is that not a supply issue? I admit I only know a bit about the topic, but it’s the only one without a linked source.



The US seems to have only one uranium enrichment facility left - URENCO, in New Mexico.[1] Uranium mining as a US industry is down to 340 people.[2] That used to be a much larger US industry. It's not lack of ore. It's low prices.[3]

[1] https://www.nrc.gov/info-finder/materials/index.html

[2] https://www.eia.gov/uranium/production/annual/

[3] https://nuclearinsider.com/reviving-the-atom-charting-the-co...



Ah, this makes a lot of sense and is resonating with what I remember, thanks!


The problem is that western nuclear tech isn't very vertically integrated.

If you buy a Russian nuclear power plant, Rosatom takes care of absolutely everything.

If you buy a powerplant from anywhere else, you've got to juggle hundreds of various contractors and companies at various stages.

So if you've built your system, there will be only very few fuel suppliers left, whose fuel product is approved for usage with all the components.

And if one of those suppliers has problems or goes bankrupt (since nuclear fuel is an aweful product to make money with: Very low numbers, extremely strict regulations, very expensive handling and processing, a very unstable and slow growing market, constantly new requirements and all of your customers have huge legal teams and deep pockets), you're going to have a lot of difficulty finding a replacement.



France has a vertical integration too. https://www.framatome.com/en/


Westing House and Hitachi to some degree, too.

Well, either I'm outdated or just plain dumb.

Over the years I have amassed solid evidence that it might be the latter, tho.



You're right, but for Trump, there doesn't have to be an actual deal, there just has to be the _appearance_ of a deal. He just needs to be able to repeat that $500 billion number -- it doesn't matter whether it's realistic or not or will ever happen or not. It's like Mexico paying for the wall.


Maybe Trump isn't actually working for Russia/China, and is just waiting for the people of the US to start a gofundme to buy him off so he goes away.


That was the $Trump coin.


If the guy were grateful for anything that was just given to him, he'd be a much different person. Rather it's got to be an explicit "deal" that can feed his ego. "I did such a great job..... Such a great job they just gave me 5 billion dollars and said they'd give me tar and feathers to come back...... yuge..... yuge amount of money..... Just the most"


Thanks for the detailed report, but if you watch the VP debate, it’s clear that Trump’s entire economic campaign platform was based on promising to do stuff that Biden already accomplished, and to lie and claim it hadn’t been done.

Trump also claimed he had no intention of implementing Project 2025, but that’s what he’s doing.

I’m not sure what the correct response is, but anyone that doesn’t think Trump constantly lies is willfully ignorant.

The only explanation I can come up with for this administration’s actions is intentional sabotage of the US economy and democracy. It matches 100% of the actions they have taken so far.



Where can one reliably learn about rare earths in the supply chain, refining abilities, what’s actually important for which tech, etc? I feel like I read very different views on this stuff all the time at different levels of granularity.


You can aspire to control minerals because you need them, or you can aspire to control minerals because you don't want others to have them.


>Titanium ore has supposedly been discovered in [...]

Titanium is very common (ninth most common crustal element IIRC). Generally there are always deposits. It's more important to have the infrastructure already in place because it's obtained in such large quantities.



Also Titanium is an awful metal to work with.

Steel has the nice property of turning into any product with but a stern look, titanium torches your factory down if it doesn't like the air quality during its massage sessions.



I thought I remembered reading that Ukraine was the largest source of neon gas in the world and that it was necessary for lasers that make advanced microchips?

Remember reading that sometime on here when the war started I think.



look up Ingas and Cryoin


> On the minerals front, the US doesn't need anything from Ukraine.

Need's got nothing to do with it. Bullies don't take what you have because they need it, they take it because that's what you have, and they want to take it away from you, just to be taking it away from you.

For Trump, it is not enough that (as he perceives the situation) he wins, rather than (as he perceives) everyone else loses. Even people's whose backs are up against the wall. Especially people whose backs are up against the wall. If you don't exploit the weakest player at the table, why are you even playing?

(Not that Trump knows anything about gambling... who the fuck loses money running a casino... on multiple separate occasions...)

Trump isn't making deals based on carefully considered advantages and concessions. He's just grasping his tiny hands at whatever comes in reach, whether or not he needs it, like the half-wit schoolyard thug he is.



I dont understand how anyone is not seeing that trump just want to gobble up parts of Ukraine for his own gain, it's no better than the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact, Trump is just angry he's late to the party. There will be no guarantees for Ukraine and no concessions for Russia once this deal is signed.


> Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact

Germany, not Russia, broke that one.

Worth watching: Neville Chamberlain's famous "Peace for our time" speech. "I have here a paper signed by the German Chancellor, Herr Hitler."[1] And the crowd cheers.

Trump signing a comparable agreement with Putin is all too possible.

[1] https://youtu.be/_gGppFLNaio?t=44



> Germany, not Russia, broke that one.

It was about mutual occupation of Poland. Now Trump is talking with putin how they want to divide Ukraine.



Maybe they don't have strategic minerals, but they do have strategic democracy.


Perhaps this is really about keeping out potential European car battery manufacturers from sourcing their raw materials from Ukraine in the future. Trump is under the influence of Musk after all.


Despite being sold as the "mineral deal" to the public, it has nearly nothing to do with them and doesn't give the US any significant control over them.

It's all about establishing a semi-sovereign fund for Ukraine (slowly turning fully sovereign, due to how it's financed), focused on reconstructing Ukraine.



Note that there's an actual chance Trump will be so narcisstic to make the US lose its alliance with Canada over some rumor he heard on X which has no basis in any of the statistics, and Canada can now join the EU because of its shared border with Denmark.

The Trump administration doesn't give a single shit about truth, it's always about power grabs for them. If I were you I'd digitize any copy of school books I can find on the internet, because they will be gone very soon.



As a Canadian that EU join comment is laughable. We've had a border with France way longer... We aren't getting into the EU on some silly Island no one cares about border... Don't undermine yourself with such silly nonsense


That's not the point. The point is making Ukraine pay off the defense contractors rather than the American taxpayers. Trump made a campaign promise to end the war, and was overwhelmingly reelected on those promises, and has so far kept them.


The "minerals deal" isn't one but in name, no idea why it's being sold as such.

It's really just a Ukrainian sovereign reconstruction fund, with the option for the US to buy its way in. Also the fund is financed through Ukraine's natural resource extraction.

The crux being:

No one else can buy into the fund. So if Ukraine is rebuilt and then disappears from the map, the US pretty much owns the fund, together with whoever is recognized as Ukraine's exile government, and with it a huge portion of Ukraine's industries.

So even if Russia were to take over Ukraine, all the money making stuff is still co-managed by the fund.

And since Ukraine is the exclusive financial benefactor of the fund, whoever takes over Ukraine ends up facing an exile government with an utterly ridiculous budget.

And if they wanted to just expropriate the fund, they'd have to expropriate the US gov, too. Good luck with that.

.

The fund is a REALLY good idea, but the way it's sold to the public and Ukraine refusing to agree to it is ... odd at best.



I would like to know what the alternatives are. None that I can think of are palatable:

1. Support Ukraine enough so that Russia doesn't take too much more territory, but not enough for Russia to feel threatened and escalate the war. This was the Biden plan and it sounds like what Europe wants. I just don't see how this ends the war. Is this just buying time for someone to depose Putin?

2. Support Ukraine enough so it can take all its territory (maybe minus Crimea). This may not be possible with weapons alone. This might require a NATO no-fly zone over Ukraine, which effectively makes us a combatant. I actually would support this path, but the downsides are all too obvious.

3. Freeze the conflict at the current lines and guarantee the agreement with US/NATO forces. What does that mean in practice? If Russia violates the agreement we go to option #2? That sounds like a hollow threat because we're clearly not ready to do #2 right now, when it could actually help. All this will do is let Russia rearm.

4. Abandon Ukraine and make a deal with Russia against China. [This is Trump's plan and it's as stupid as it sounds.]

Did I miss anything?

The root of the problem is that this is a hard-power conflict and the only solution is going to be hard-power. But neither the US nor the EU are willing to put in hard-power against Russia. In that situation, I honestly don't know how to stop Putin from getting what he wants.

My frustration is that, as awful as Trump's plan is, it acknowledges that the only way to beat Russia is to send US troops to fight Russians, and there is no universe in which the US public will support that.

But please, correct me if I'm wrong. I would like to be wrong.



In my opinion, Ukraine should be supported as long as they are willing and able to fight, allowing whatever strategies and tactics they consider necessary.

That's because I believe there is a moral and (geo-)political duty to support Ukraine, also in order to make future territorial wars less likely, and Ukraine is a sovereign country with democratically elected leaders and parliament.



Fully agree. Ukraine should be given the means to defend itself on equal footing. No nation, regardless of size or power, should operate under the assumption that it can violate another country's sovereignty without consequences.


That's always easier said than done though.

NATO must always act as a cohesive unit so any direct confrontation significantly increases the risks.

Western countries including my own have demilitarize heavily since the 1990s + rebuilt armies for counter terrorism, so sending more weapons to a land war isn't straightforward at all (as we've seen).

Western power is mostly centered around air and sea power and you can't easily transfer that to a 3rd party...especially three years late.

If neither Biden or now Trump is going to promise mass Tomahawks and IFVs galore then all we're left with is perpetuating a stalemate, not recovering sovereign land nor sufficiently punishing Russia. A couple more Storm Shadows and Leopard tanks from dwindling supplies aren't going to cut it.



> NATO must always act as a cohesive unit

In order to do that they need to have a defined leader, not twenty some people each one pursuing their own interests

Who would that leader be? Certainly you don’t want Trump because in that case things would hardly be any different



> In order to do that they need to have a defined leader, not twenty some people each one pursuing their own interests

I mean on paper that's not really true. The US or whichever leader can't tell Poland to send troops, warships, or pilots into Ukraine because if Russia then sends a cruise missile into Warsaw it violates the NATO treaty which would require them all to react. There's no minor conflict exception, it moves as a unit. So the only option on the table is full NATO vs Russia, or status quo proxy war where weapons are funneled through it.

For Europe to properly defend Ukraine's sovereignty on their own they would have to break NATO commitments. Because I don't see continued supply of weapons from their small pool as sufficient to make a big difference... only to extend the war for a few more years, after which a very similar DMZ will be established.

To fight this war you need real military power: on the ground logistics, protected supply lines, large troop reserves to support offensive operations, etc. Weapons only get you so far.



I think the heart of the matter that I haven’t seen discussed yet is: Who’s going to pay for it? The current administration is cutting expenses across the board. There’s a lot of talk about the deficit and defense spending. I don’t see much appetite in the US to keep sending blank checks to Ukraine. Hence, the minerals deal: this was to recoup costs.

Of course, it would be great if defending democracy was free. However, with politicians already talking about cutting Medicaid spending, it was only a matter of time until defense spending came under scrutiny



Sending money to Ukraine saves US money. The equipment that Russia is losing means the US does not need to maintain as much military as before and fpr the cost of 90B US can permanently save maybe 30% of its mil budget going forward, especially is Russia clearly looses. One more year of support to Ikrain would destroy most of gerund Russian equipment and set it back for years.


China?


If we apply this reasoning universally, should any sovereign nation engaged in war receive indefinite support as long as they are willing to fight?

Historical cases, such as the U.S. in Vietnam or the Soviet Union in Afghanistan, suggest that prolonged external backing can lead to drawn out conflicts with high costs and unintended consequences.

Is there a point at which the costs/economic, political, or humanitarian of indefinite support outweigh the intended benefits? How do you think such a threshold be determined?

I think one should _at least_ consider alternatives pathways to achieve a resolution.



If Ukraine falls (which I doubt will happen soon fwiw, but what do I know), Moldova and the Baltic countries are in big trouble.


Zelensky said as much during the meeting. Trump shrugged it off.


Not just shrugged it off, took it as a personal affront and scolded Zelenskyy for it, like an illiterate coward.


To me it’s fair to say that while the moral duty might fall equally among nato nations, the geopolitical one leans heavily towards Europe.

Does this imply European nations should be contributing to the war effort more than the US? Does this shift match what the current situation leads to?



> Does this imply European nations should be contributing to the war effort more than the US?

They are contributing more than the US.[1]

[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0B4eE8q2ug



A quarter of Ukraine's population has left.


That is the current path (at least until today's meeting).

Maybe we get lucky and Putin dies or is deposed (and the successor is less hard-line). That's a lot of rolls that have to come down the right way.

More likely, Ukraine continues to bleed men until they can't defend Kyiv, then Russia takes all of Ukraine anyway except you've lost a lot of soldiers and weapons.

No matter what EU leaders say, I think they are beginning to realize that Ukraine will not win this war and time is not on their side. The EU may or may not continue to support Ukraine with weapons, but it will be half-hearted at best.

The EU will pressure Ukraine to freeze the conflict, but without any hard guarantees. In a few years, Russia will then begin the attack again and probably take Kyiv then.

I hope I'm wrong.



It will be near-impossible to end this conflict with all of Ukrainian territory in Ukrainian hands while Putin is still in power. It would be a massive loss of face and power for Putin and he'll do anything to prevent it.

A successor (even a dictator and/or hard-liner) has a lot more manoeuvring space here, at least initially, because he can just blame it all on Putin.

Remember this all started with "we'll conquer all of Ukraine real quick, back in a jiffy". Putin pivoted to "no, we just wanted the eastern provinces" but everyone knew that was complete bollocks. The entire war is already a massive loss of face for Putin.



'Support ukraine' to an undefined end state is not a strategy. This is what Biden did and what the Europeans are still doing.


Yes. I see this as a battle against authoritarianism, which is always worth fighting.


For Americans, this is also a battle we need to fight at home.


[flagged]



It's not warmongering to allow a country that has been invaded to determine how and how long they defend their country and which approaches they take towards peace.

Is it possible that you haven't been raised in a free democratic country? That would explain your patronizing attitude towards elected governments and other countries. Otherwise, I don't know what to say. It's really about sovereignty.

On a side note, it is never a good idea to allow your judgments to get clouded by anecdotal "evidence", let alone videos on social media. Use statistical data instead.



[flagged]



I merely have an intact and uncorrupted sense of justice. I believe that any country illegally attacked by another country should be helped and the people of that country (if it is democratic) should decide on their own how to defend themselves.


1. Is keeping Russia in a forever war. Draining resources and preventing them from projecting any hard power anywhere else in the world. Seems like a good deal for US to me.


It sadly does nothing to solve the real geopolitical issue that the US have in this century, namely the rise of China.


And who is China's strongest ally in the world?


No-one is. If that's a hint at Russians, then no: they were on a brink of war throughout the 70s, tensions in the 80s, basically ignored one another since the 90s, however since the start of Ukraine war and both being on the receiving end of sanctions they started to drift closer, which could be described as "the West pushing Russia into Chinese embrace."


Stopping / freezing means russia continues to stock up at the current rate and and takes odessa and kaliningrad once trump term is up. The only option is for to create even more cost efficient+robust+sophisticated+massed drones and slug it out


Kaliningrad is already Russian, I'm not sure what city / country you meant but probably not Kaliningrad.


I get that. As I said, maybe eventually Putin gets deposed.

But (a) it is basically prolonging the losses for Ukraine, and (b) assumes that Russian won't escalate (maybe with nukes).

Russia knows that we're not going to blow up the world to save Ukraine. At some point, they will cross a threshold and we will have to back down.



Russia can’t escalate any more than they already have without directly attacking the US or with nukes, and in both cases, it’s suicide. They are struggling to take on Ukraine, let alone the US, and literally no country of influence would back them if they attacked or escalated to nukes.


Russia took the US with social media and an election. Not bullets.


I agree with you, but that's not what's being discussed here. If it were to come to kinetic warfare, Russian wouldn't stand a chance against the US as evidenced in Ukraine.


Would the current US president actually order the US military to defend the country against a Russian invasion? That's not exactly clear anymore.


1. Is not about Ukraine. It's about the US and Europe. They benefit massively while Ukraine suffers the losses on their behalf.

Think about it. They support Ukraine by sending them surplus or aged weapon systems while modernising and funnelling money to their military industrial complex (with public support!). In return Ukraine uses those weapons systems to keep Russia tied up in a war, exposing Russia's most modern weapon systems and providing a huge amount of information on how to fight a drone war.

This is a great investment independent of what happens in or to Ukraine, basically they turn weapons they needed to replace or get rid of anyway into intel, new weapons, political brownie points at home and a weakened adversary.

China doesn't mind it that much either, though they enjoy it less because they had invested fairly heavily into Ukrainian infrastructure that is being destroyed. Keeping Russia isolated makes it easy for them to extra cheap oil & gas, push for pipelines that flow to China instead of towards Europe and also offload a bunch of their industrial surplus now that their requirements are winding down and the rest of the world is trying to tariff them for dumping.

So basically the problem is 1. is good for almost everyone except Ukraine and Russia. Trump for whatever reason can't understand that and just wants to throw a tantrum as is befitting for someone of his intelligence.



None of the solutions are good for Ukraine. So the least we can do is not decide for them but support them in their decision.


> It's about the US and Europe. They benefit massively

EU (germany) gets increasingly deindustrialised, to a big part due to energy costs associated with the war, and the related sanctions and sabotages. This war would not have even started if the previous US administration(s) had not pushed to that direction, europe was up to that point signing energy deals with Russia, they had no incentive for a full blown war. EU was following, and now they run around like headless chicken with no purpose, goal and prospects while Trump is basically trying to cash out of the situation. But I agree with you that, whatever this has to do with, the least is about Ukraine itself and democracy. Sadly we are never gonna move on from this false narrative until it is too late.



That's not a good investment, that's pure evil.


I understand how USA gains from that. Please explain to me how Europe does.


How does Europe gain from preventing Russia from invading and annexing a European country that wishes to be part of a European alliance?


Russia is not going to use nukes.


What makes you so sure? They have already said that certain events (e.g., Russia itself being "threatened") would make them use nukes.

We are not going to blow up the world to save Ukraine and Russia/Putin knows this. If he decides to use nukes what are we going to do? What can we do?



Ukraine literally invaded Russia with Western weapons in support. The nukes did not fly. The nukes will not fly.


Right. And also you can never take that threat seriously when Russia is using it while on the offensive, because following that logic you should let them do whatever they want because nukes.


>We are not going to blow up the world to save Ukraine and Russia/Putin knows this. If he decides to use nukes what are we going to do? What can we do?

They are not going to risk their security for Ukraine. They wouldn't risk starting a nuclear war over Ukraine, it's stupid, even for their standards



If anyone use any nuke, the world as we know it is done, Ukraine might not be able to retaliate but others have already promised to. France did for instance.

No one want it, Putin and especially China. Current atomic weapon are no more the little Nagasaki Firecrackers.



Russia is more likely to use nukes against US if Russia wins in Ukraine.


I think you're at least a bit wrong in that this is about a lot more thn simply the Ukraine/Russia conflict.

The US has a position as "leader of the free world" which it occupies, at least partly, because it is percieved as committed to supporting democracy and freedom worldwide.

Turning on an ally during wartime doesn't just create problems for Ukraine's ability to defend itself (although it will be interesting to see whether Europe ups spending to compensate) - it removes the US as a percieved ally of liberal democracies worldwide.

So, not that you're wrong on those points, but that they miss the USA's broader commitments. It might make sense to commit to an undesirable outcome, if it fits into a wider strategy.



I think you need better wording for Option 1: Support Ukraine sufficiently so it can make its own decision if they want to continue fighting.

For Option 2 I actually don't see a lot of downsides except dead European soldiers replacing dead Ukrainian soldiers. Russia would absolutely stop if being stopped in their tracks more ferociously. In fact, Russia is already fighting this war all out. If they could they would do more (or at least I can't phantom why they would not).



> “I actually don’t see a lot of downsides”

You do realize Russia has nuclear weapons and a leader who has already hinted at using them if necessary?



Russia had a lot of equipment in storage, equipment that was supposed to be maintained. Strangely enough a lot of that equipment never saw any maintenance despite the maintenance budget being spent. That money 'disappeared' into someone's pockets.

Now these were conventional weapons, guns, tanks, trucks, etcetera. Stuff that you could imagine being used at some point, so there was some risk of being found out.

Now imagine you are a Russian general in charge of maintaining the nuclear stockpile. Weapons that you can reasonably expect never to be actually used. Even better, if you ever get in a situation where they would be used, it's basically the end of the world and no one is going to be alive to care if you pocketed the maintenance money anyway. How much of the allocated maintenance budget do you expect to have been spent on actual maintenance?



US intelligence agencies have said that unlike the other branches, the Russian nuclear forces are well managed and have relatively low levels of corruption. The gist is that more than enough of the rockets will work just fine and deliver bombs that will go boom.


Every nuclear power has hinted at using them if necessary, that's why they're developed


Unlikely to be used. Why would it become more necessary if Europeans help secure Ukraine's borders?


How many human lives are you willing to bet on that?


If Putin wants to destroy the world, he can do it any time. No need to hide behind any excuses.


Nuclear weapons of which some might even work


You forgot option 1.5: Provide Ukraine with the long range missiles they've been asking for, the ones that they can use to strike Moscow directly.

This could escalate the war, but Russia does not appear to be in a position to escalate right now.



This feels good, but will ultimately fail.

Russia will respond with either strategic bombing of Kyiv or tactical nukes. And then what do we do? Nuke Moscow? Send NATO troops in? More sanctions?

Russia knows that we are not going to blow up the world to save Ukraine, which means escalation always ends with us backing down.



Russia doesn't have the capability to do strategic bombing of Ukrainian cities. They can just about manage missiles.

Sanctions escalation should have happened already. Too many parts of Europe are comfortable trading with an enemy.



You reveal the core problem for Ukrainian allies on either side of the Atlantic, which is that this war is much more important to Russia than it is to anyone else (not including Ukraine).


> Russia knows that we are not going to blow up the world to save Ukraine

Therefore, ending the war as soon as possible is the moral thing to do.



Even if so, it's a poor course of action to invite the defending leader to a talk, and ask publicly for his unconditional surrender _under a threat and praising of the invader_


Its a game.

US most certainly has anti ballistic missile tech, however wasting exposing it on Russia is something that is not worth it when there are more capable nations on the line.



Russia is special. They're a sophisticated adversary with a drastically different warfighting doctrine. They still optimize airframes for dogfighting, are laser-focused on hypersonic tech, and we don't officially know how good their missile defense is (probably excellent, or at least good enough to be dangerous, which is a bit of a theme).

They have a much lower defense budget, and have been forced to actually be creative and clever about problems, as opposed to our throw-money-at-problem-ergo-win approach.

tl;dr Russia is not a fun opponent, and they culturally really enjoy statecraft so best to stick with statecraft.



>They still optimize airframes for dogfighting

no

>are laser-focused on hypersonic tech

no

>and we don't officially know how good their missile defense is

we do know. Its mediocre at best.

The thing about Russia that most people don't get is that even before all of this happened, there was no money to be made in terms of talent for stuff that requires engineering. Everyone who was smart was leaving the country so they could make much better salaries elsewhere.

They are a full scale paper tiger, none of their stuff even from cold war era is as good as the propaganda claimed.

Their only real playing card is nukes.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-57

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oreshnik_(missile)

And the S550 prototypes are looking great.

> They are a full scale paper tiger

This is a bad approach to take, even if you're right.



I.e., OP's option (4).


Tactically nukes are useless BTW, and you give tactical nukes to ukraine in this case.


If Russia could bomb kyiv more than they have, they already would have. They literally dont have the strength.

Nukes would likely drag Europeans into the war formally, which Russia cant handle. They dont have resilience, and their oligarchs dont want a nuclear war any more than we do. At the end of the day they are cowards; once their actual livlihood is at stake they will cut and run to save whats left.

Russias only actual card is political division. Biden effectively gambled the US would be more politically resilient than it actually is, and appears to have been wrong. Putin gambled he could manipulate enough in the US to turn the tide.

Now that Trump has exposed it, imo it actually increases the risk because now one warning Nuke can maybe whip his followers into line.

Ultimately today Z played new cards. He saw the writing on the wall, knowing agreeing to Trumps current deal would likely be the (eventual) end of his country. So he appealed to the US voter. This bypasses Trump so it was never going to end well. Now the next phase plays out. Trump tries to discredit z; if he wins its over. If he loses we go back to the Biden plan, rebranded as the Trump plan one way or another.

Strategic victory for Putin in the meantime. JD isnt cut out for the big stage is my main take away.



One nuke and the whole of NATO will back down. To think that we could respond to the limited use of nukes conventionally is extremely naive, and to think that the limited use of nukes can be responded to with a limited use of nukes w/o escalation to global nuclear war is -quite frankly- stupid beyond belief.

My own sense is that Putin waited Biden out to see what might happen in the 2024 elections, and now that Trump is back and conciliatory there is no need for him to escalate to limited nuclear war. And my sense is that Trump understands Putin's limits and that is why Trump is keen to make peace on terms vaguely approaching a complete capitulation to Russia -- for Trump it's not his war anyways, so for him it's not so much capitulation but something that can be sold as another domestic political victory over the Democrats and the Washington establishment.



If Russia uses a nuke China and India will stop doing business with them and Russia collapses in a year max.


russia hasn't been cutoff economically still. 3 years and the economy is going down but not as fast as it should have. The leaders of the west think they are playing a game here with pros and cons. There are no pros and a huge con with number 3 on it. How the fuck can anyone still trade with russia.

This should have been retaliation of the western world years ago.



Russia is basically not a major player anymore. It's a vassal state of PRC. Thinking it would be a useful ally against PRC is a complete misread of the situation. Sacrificing a state and alliance with EU for this is doubly insane. US and West was doing absolutely fine and held ground and the values (freedom etc) against oppressive dictatorships right up until this year. It's distressing.


This is a war of attrition.

Russia is expending its soviet cold war materiel. Its trade embargo is seriously undermining its ability to continue to fight. It may be sooner than we think that they'll run out of weapons and equipment so long as Ukraine has support from its allies.



5. Ukraine develops nukes ASAP. That's the only viable strategy thar protects (protected so far).


Sure, and Russia wouldn't nuke NATO targets in return. And they wouldn't know of Ukraine's nuclear weapons program and destroy it before it succeeds.

This sort of gullibility is very dangerous, especially if it manifests in folks in DC who could help your scenario happen.



> Sure, and Russia wouldn't nuke NATO targets in return.

With what? Left over nukes from the cold war that haven't been maintained in decades? I would be surprised if Russia had 1 working nuke left.



If your goal is not to be annihilated in the shirt term, you don't care what they are thinking in DC, Moscow, even London


At what point would ukraine be justified launching their nukes (if they had them)? Now? After russian launches first?


Whenever they want, up until Russia officially backs down.


So when is russia justified to launch its nukes? Simply "whenever they want?"


One obvious alternative is to not to behave like a bully but like a real leader. The US could disengage in much more orderly fashion, if it so pleased.


I would love that!

But that doesn't change the underlying problem. How do we stop Putin getting what he wants? If you're saying, there's nothing we can do but the US should be nicer about it, well, I guess that's right, but somewhat useless.



Give Russia some of what it wants, give Ukraine security guarantees. Put NATO troops in Ukraine. Maintain sanctions against Russia.


He covered that. NATO troops and security guarantees are only credible if the US/EU is willing to send troops to die in the Donbas. If they're truly willing to do that, why not do it now?

Russia easily calls the bluff.



Yes, you did forget a scenario where a EU, US and possibly other countries military presence is on the table as a threat to deter further escalations by Russia, but does not actually occur.

To be more specific, you give Ukraine what it needs to freeze the current lines, a cease fire is signed, Russia gets to stop fighting while saving face, and the unoccupied part of Ukraine gets what would amount to NATO membership without formally joining .

The status of the occupied territories remains ambiguous, with the West and Ukraine banking on a change in leadership in Russia at some point in the future.

As far as I can tell, this is the type of deal that Zelensky thought he came to DC for.



The goal was always to support Ukraine for long enough to pressure Russia into the negotiation table, the concessions could varied, no one knows. Ukraine knows it cannot get it all, but they know they won't settle for nothing either.

We know this given how close even Trump got to having discussions with both parties. His competence was not there to finish any deal and took the worse turn possible.



But if you can't stop Russia from getting some of Ukraine, how do you stop it from getting all of Ukraine? That to me is the key problem.

Russia knows that time is on its side. It can just pause enough to rearm and then attack again. What will we do differently then?



What makes you think it will go any differently than the first time? A pause will allow Ukraine to either rearm again as well or recapture territory.


Because Ukrainian soldiers are not unlimited, and Russia's population is about 3 times larger.

Plus, at some point Russia will start using nukes and then we will be forced to back down. We are not going to blow up the world to save Ukraine.



Ukraine is fighting an existential war. It has far more to lose and therefore can and will commit far more of its population and resources to the fight.

Russia has a greater population, but has been relying largely on conscripts among the poor, the incarcerated, and third world nations likes North Korea. Thats a resource that is far smaller in number than their total population. As soon as it’s tapped out, they either have to give up are start conscripting people in the middle and upper classes, and that will turn the Russian population on the war and their leaders faster than anything.



Right because countries with smaller populations can't beat larger ones when defending their homeland. Oh wait that's exactly what happened in Afghanistan vs USSR and USA, Vietnam etc.


I think Russia would be much more weary to attack a re-armed, well supported and "rested" Ukraine that would be bolstered by defeating goliath, even if at great loss, remember that everyone thought they would capitulate within two weeks.

In this war the only winners are US/EU weapons manufacturers, there is no winning scenario. Something Trump cannot understand and Putin cannot accept.



Let Ukraine attack Russia through European territory. Let them take Kaliningrad and St. Petersburg. Ukraine is boxed in right now but all those other places are lightly defended


Kaliningrad likely has some nukes and offer no benefit for Ukraine to hold or even damage. most of the valuable targets for Ukraine would be reachable by long range missiles. No one wants to supply. Sadly the play seems to be increase Ukrainian lethality and force Russia to conscript more Russians from bigger cities to erode support for the conflict.


The USA used to fight proxy vs proxy against Russia. Now we have a chance for us to fight through a proxy against Russia itself. This is a huge geopolitical opportunity to diminish or even destroy an enemy with low risk to the US itself.

The whole liberal-democratic world should be all-in on Ukraine assistance.

Instead, Trump just made it clear that the optimal time for PRC v ROC round 2 is within the next 3 year 10 months.



> This is a huge geopolitical opportunity to diminish or even destroy an enemy with low risk to the US itself.

They had this "huge opportunity" for last 4 years.



I’m struggling to see how option 1 is somehow worse than option 4…


More Ukrainian + Russians dead/wounded and more money spent on weapons, and you end up in one of the other options anyway.


The only inevitability listed is that Putin can’t live forever. There’s legitimate hope if Russia has a leadership change.


He's 72. Let's say he lives to 87 (average for 1% male income earners). That's 15 more fucking years of death.


Life expectancy of leaders (especially autocrats) is below average for obvious reasons.


Russia had three years, no eleven, to escalate this war but has not done so. You'd think the Kursk invasion would have triggered but it has has not. It is us Europeans who have to escalate this war, show strength because it's the modus that Putin operates on and the only language he understands. I want to see an ultimatum after which we not only create this no-fly-zone over Ukraine but also send men (I'll include my own grey beard here) to Ukraine to help them push the invaders out. If that happens we need to set a second ultimatum after which we simple invade Russia. It's sad to say: But as with my native Germany, it will take a complete defeat for the Russian people to have even a chance to embrace democracy. I'm somewhat disappointed that the future of Russian people is barely ever mentioned. Take away Putin and his cronies, give them democracy like (West) Germany did and the EU re-gains access to a huge market.


I'd look at the minimum viable option as providing enough materiel that the worst case situation is eventually similar to North and South Korea. But I also think it is conceivable that non minimum options are possible.


I'm not sure if Putin/Russia can sustain option 1 for much longer, given the huge economical, military and political drain, especially in combination with effective sanctions.

So keeping it up might destabilize Putin, without further escalating the conflict. Seems like the sanest of bad options to me.



> 4. Abandon Ukraine and make a deal with Russia against China. [This is Trump's plan and it's as stupid as it sounds.]

It would have been in the US best interest to have done this twenty years ago, but some greedy bastards thought there would be untold riches in breaking up Russia, to have "two, three, many Ukraines". They failed.



Russia is a mafia that owns a gas station, not a global power. They’d be irrelevant without nuclear weapons. Their economy is roughly the same size as the state of Texas.


And yet those nuclear weapons, those they do have.


Just because they have nuclear weapons doesn’t make them a reliable partner in global geopolitics. Trusting Russia in any sort of alliance is a foolish move if you’re familiar with history.


How about 3 + a fortified DMZ like in Korea?


You seem to be missing $15T in minerals and for sure we can’t afford a freeze on current lines and this will make Russia invasion very profitable.


> Support Ukraine enough so it can take all its territory (maybe minus Crimea). This may not be possible with weapons alone. This might require a NATO no-fly zone over Ukraine, which effectively makes us a combatant. I actually would support this path, but the downsides are all too obvious.

It _is_ possible with the combo of weapons and economic sanctions. Ukraine (had) more economic support, so it is both a war of blood and endurance, endurance which Ukraine could have by being a porcupine with next-gen weapons and non-stop bleeding for Russia until things start hitting the oligarch's pocketbooks too far and the people of Russia begin to demand regime change.

Russia is a glorified gas station. You can hurt it dramatically with economic sanctions because its whole GDP is concentrated into one sector.

Imo if Trump really cared about America's long term security, he would be trying to fund research into cheaper / easier to produce next-gen weapons for Ukraine to test for us, instead of complaining how much our HIMARS and tanks currently cost, firing top military brass, cozying up to a dictator, and trying to exploit a ravaged democratic ally.



Maybe. But Biden and Germany didn't push too hard on either because they feared Russian reaction. Now, with so many Ukrainian soldiers dead, it will be much harder.

Economic sanctions won't affect Russia as long as China is behind them. And if the West is against Russia, they will do anything to keep China as an ally.



Sanctions work! But their enforcement requires attention. Russians are draining their fund to the last drop and there is not much left, they cannot easily get a credit either. Unfortunately, these last weeks give some breathing room to Russians and their evasion schemes as people who look after sanctions are being fired.


> Biden and Germany didn't push too hard on either because they feared Russian reaction

And this was a mistake, one that they slowly tried to reverse once they realized Ukraine wasn't going to be a pushover especially with modern weaponry.



I think the "mineral rights" deal might play into this. In the full interview[0], Trump mentions it right off the bat, and talks about how it "means we're going to be inside".

I think it goes in tandem with your number (3). Like you say, why would Russia not violate the agreement? I think maybe the move is "well now we have citizens in there working so don't blow us up". It's one thing for Russia to attack the Ukraine, but another if they have collateral damage that takes out Americans.

I don't even know how valuable the actual underlying resources are, so much as a bit of "kayfabe" between the Ukraine, US, and Russia, that things are different.

Anyway, that's my hope.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=um19Mf4dYes



Zelenekys issue with that plan is the lack of guarantees, because of what happened the last time. He believes Russia will restrengthen faster than his country and when interest wanes, comes right back.

Trumps issue is he knows the lack of guarantees is a better deal for the US because we gain much and risk nothing. He wants to make a deal and get credit, i dont think he really cares what happens after. Maybe he does, i wish that to be the case. But i dont believe it.



The reality is there can't be guarantees only temporary peace. If the deal fails, Russia won't attack mineral deposits owned by US. US would probably send troops to "protect" US resources.


  4. Abandon Ukraine and make a deal with Russia against China. [This is Trump's plan and it's as stupid as it sounds.

  that the only way to beat Russia is to send US troops to fight Russians, and there is no universe in which the US public will support that.
This is really Trump's plan? And what makes you think Americans would support sending US troops to defend East Asia if they're not willing to fight for Ukraine? And what makes you think Russia will sit there idling while the US fights China in the pacific?


Put economic pressure upon Russia so it cannot support its war efforts. Meanwhile, Ukraine should be given anything it needs to defend itself effectively. Do you think it is palatable?


#1 is the least bad because Putin only has the resources to keep going for so long and will eventually have to quit (while looking for a way to save face). There is a lot of resentment in Russia about their boys dying in Afghanistan and at some point the Russian people will not put up with the loss of life anymore.


The U.S. abandoned Georgia in the 00s because it was indefensible.

The Ukraine is also very difficult to defend, especially since it seems like such a touchy issue for Russia. I doubt that Russia would go to full-scale nuclear war over Ukraine but I wouldn't be surprised if there was a small scale use of nuclear weapons on -say- Brussels. And if Russia makes enough of those Oreshnik missiles they could easily take out most of Europe's air forces in one go without going nuclear, and thus change the balance of power in Ukraine.

The question really is: at what price Ukraine?

Your (1), (2), and (3) are no solutions. Pausing the war now simply means escalating it later.

Depending on Trump's understanding of Russia's limits (I say Trump's because he might have a better understanding that the public), (4) may be the only workable option.



If Ukraine received twice the military aid, they would have already won. Drip feeding aid was worst of all worlds, outside allying with Russia. Both US and Europe got deterred by Putin's nuclear threats. Which means logically next step for Europe is drastically increase their nuclear stockpile.


I don't know what answer you expect. I think you didn't really miss options (broadly speaking), but your interpretation of each option is opinionated, and this is extremely opinionated topic (obviously). So I wouldn't say you are wrong, you are just... opinionated.

1st one isn't really about "buying time". The prolongation of conflict is not a "side-effect" here, it's the whole point. And IMO it's a solid plan, honestly. If I was a citizen of the USA without any morals or inclinations to travel abroad, I would probably support it. This isn't a 100% solid plan, there are actually some questions if it works as it was supposed to work, but the incentive here seems blatantly obvious to me: war weakens Russia, weakens Europe, and nobody cares about Ukraine anyway, so by investing into the war carefully USA ends up winning, same as after WW1 and WW2. To me, the game plan is obvious here. It's just cynical, and that's why Biden (and other public-speaking supporters of the plan) would never say it as it is. No real politician would.

As to Europe wanting that... well, I would say it seems current EU leadership wants that, and I have pretty hard time explaining why, so I'll leave it aside. If you want some random data point: I, as a European citizen definitely don't want that. I don't doubt the majority of my fellow EU citizens would say they "support the support of Ukraine", but I don't find it surprising, given all media outlets chant 24/7 about how horrible Russia/Putin is.

I mean, yes, that's kinda saying "I think I know better than these guys", but I just don't see any benefits for the actual people (not governments) living in EU. This war hurts the economics, it hurts the relationships, and I personally have relatives in Ukraine, so I just want it to stop. I don't care on which terms, and obviously it cannot be the terms on which the war started. It's way too deep into the conflict and too many lives lost to call it a good outcome, but it's the best outcome.

So, not being a citizen of the USA, I am in favor of that alternative which is "as stupid as it sounds", the last one. I mostly have problems not with the option itself, but with the fact that for Trump to want it is not enough for it to happen. Because, as stated, a lot of people don't want this to happen, and it almost seems like Trump is mistaking being POTUS for being God. Meaning, the way he is doing things is stupidly blunt. It might work, it might escalate things more. In any case, having all of HN whining about how ashamed they are of their president is not a good start. And that product he helped BBC to make works awful for him and his plan.



If European leadership does this right, Europe will emerge out of this much stronger than they went into it. It has already strengthened the collaboration across the EU‘s nations, has led to higher defense spending, will lead to even higher defense spending, will drastically increase energy independence, and eventually also increase EU‘s soft power (because they would have the hard power to back it up). If they play it right


Had this on another comment, but decided to respond here more in the root:

If Russia invades a NATO country, then you guys can worry about WW3. Until then, leave it be. We could have avoided a million deaths by now if we weren't adamant to "stick it to Russia". Either Ukraine is a part of NATO, or not.

If the world let it be back in 2022, Russia would have finished invading Ukraine in a week, and then would have been stuck dealing with incredible amounts of terrorism and guerilla warfare coming from a very large Ukrainian population. What exactly would that outcome have helped them in this supposedly-dangerous "invasion of Europe"? More balls and courage to invade another country?

Same outcome if they win tomorrow after 3 bloody years of war. You think they want another European country? What for? You think Putin can continue to convince his populace to keep subsidizing more wars at this point?



I wish the EU was more ... united.

Most of the nations were woefully slow to act with Ukraine (hey let's send some token helmets). They've got a totalitarian regime invading democracies in their back yard but don't seem all that united about it ....



The EU has donated more to Ukraine's war effort than the US, despite coverage suggesting otherwise.


This is false. The EU has put up more money than the US but they have not _donated_ more money than the US. A large form of the payment from the EU has been in low interest loans.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/crew8y7pwd5o



Loans which have no security guarantees and will almost certainly be written off, unless you can make Russia pay for them - i.e. they will never be paid back by the Ukraine. It's the standard money giving structure in the EU. Make a loan, write it off later without repayment.


EU is more and more open to the idea of paying for the Ukraine war from the Russian frozen assets ($200 billions or so). The big guns (France and Germany) are still opposed though...

[0] https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-ukraine-peace-talks-donal...



I actually think we should be quite cautious about this. It's essentially seizing dollar assets. It might provide a big boost for China's efforts to get the world off the dollar standard.

(I'm a strong supporter of Ukraine, host refugees in my house, and have donated to Comebackalive.ua, so this is not because I'm neutral in this war.)



About why the dollar has been the world currency for the past few decades (during which EU consolidated into a huge market with a single currency, and China became either the first or second country by economic size): the world's currency needs a country that runs huge trade deficits [0]. China is a nation of savers so their instinct is to not run trade deficits. Europe is in a similar position. US - not so much. I would not expect the dollar to lose this status any time soon.

[0] https://www.dunham.com/FA/Blog/Posts/triffins-dilemma?utm_ca...



> It might provide a big boost for China's efforts to get the world off the dollar standard.

At this point who cares about US dollars? I'm sure Europeans care more about Euros.



It’s the opposite. The US economic boom has seen EUR/USD fall to near parity.


Yes. But now that the US is the enemy of the free world Europeans are likely going to look to divest from the US and take care of themselves. Meaning Euro first, and likely giving preference to non-US countries in matters of trade.


Huh, how would this seizure take dollars away? These assets are held in Europe, their valuation is stated in Euro terms -- are they actually being held as dollars?


You can open a US dollar account in a non-US bank. Some banks don't offer this service to ordinary private citizens (others do), but I think pretty much all will if you are a (non-sanctioned) business or foreign government or high net worth individual looking to deposit large sums of cash (millions).

The bank needs to somehow hold US dollars to back its US dollar deposits, but there are various ways of doing that – e.g. put the money in its own account(s) in a US bank, hold physical US dollars in a vault somewhere, purchase US treasuries, use the deposit to fund lending denominated in US dollars (huge market for US dollar loans outside the US) – likely it is using some combination of those

So probably some of these Russian assets in Europe are euros, some are US dollars, some are other financial assets such precious metals, stocks and bonds, units in managed funds, etc – and they are just all being converted to euros for reporting purposes



Only about 18% of which is actually owned by Russia. The rest is money that happened to be in transit between private persons at an unfortunate time. Do we really think it's fair that a lady who happened to be selling her house at exactly the time the war started... should have that money donated to Ukraine's war effort?


Re: "Only about 18% of which is actually owned by Russia." - extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Care to show some?

(I do not understand your example with the lady that sold her house when the conflict erupted. Lots of people sold their houses at that time and somehow their money is not being frozen....)



Between private Russians?

I believe you'll find a lot of Ukrainians found their entire towns suddenly "donated" to the war effort, not just a downpayment on a house.

War's hell, they can get bent.



The people holding the money are not at war.


That is complicated. And historically simply not true. Being subject/citizen of one country means that in case of war, your property is legitimate to be anything from damaged to seized by opposing parties in the war. The fact that we hadn't had any kind of real war in since WW2 means that no-one has that experience in recent history.

I'm aware that there have been significant amounts of armed conflict in the mean time, but the last conflict between states that ran similar to historic wars was the Korean war (which technically hasn't ended). Most wars the US was involved in where more similar to colonial expeditions (seizing local resources, defending local bases)



> That is complicated. And historically simply not true. Being subject/citizen of one country means that in case of war, your property is legitimate to be anything from damaged to seized by opposing parties in the war.

There are two sides in this war: Russia and Ukraine. Neither is holding the money.



[flagged]



Those Russians have their own government to blame, which in addition to stealing Ukrainian land has stolen assets of Western companies, including billions in planes. They are legitimized in overthrowing their poor leadership.


Russians are stealing butter and rationing electricity, Russia won’t level anything to rubble far beyond their borders this century. They are almost out of steam.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42701491

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42701640



We're talking about the money in Euroclear right? Why would a woman in Russia be receiving money through Euroclear when selling a house?


Whats your source on that?


Yes, the only people responsible for Russian leadership are the Russian people. The Russian people should pay to rebuild Ukraine.


> Do we really think it's fair that a lady who happened to be selling her house at exactly the time the war started... should have that money donated to Ukraine's war effort?

You know what's not fair? The lady's government invaded a sovereign nation, committed genocide while doing it, and continues to do so. If that lady lost her fortune from it, then she should be vocal about justice for all parties.



if we start holding all Americans liable for what American government did to other countries, it would be really bad for you


Yes, it would. Maybe doing so would cause American government to change their actions. Or maybe not.


America is a functioning democracy so individual Americans are much more responsible than individual Russians for the bullshit their respective countries do.


America is not a democracy in a strict sense, its a republic. To be precise, modern America is a plutocracy, not democracy.

But did America ever pay reparations for centuries of enslaving its own people? Where is the accountability?



> America is not a democracy in a strict sense, its a republic

Most republics are democracies. You seem to think "democracy" is equivalent to "direct democracy," but a direct democracy is only one type of democracy. A republic is another form of democracy.

America is certainly a democracy (for now; who knows what will happen in two years)



In the question of degree and comparison, the US (even in its present greatly degraded state) is far more a functioning democracy than Russia.


How deluded do you need to be to detach yourself from all the responsibility in your life that are complicated? If you are an American, the US government is YOUR government and it is YOUR problem. You might not be able to do much, but it does not shield you from your moral responsibility.

Russians are responsible for their government too! They just have way less they're able to do to steer it, but it still their government.



Your argument seems to violate ought implies can, which as far as I know is generally accepted as a valid moral principle.


She didn't choose that government, nor does she have any power to affect it, so how can she be responsible for it?


Absolutely, she shouls pay! Also EU should suspend(or tax 100%) pensions and all social benefits to sponsor the war! If that is not enough, confiscate private companies and private properties!

I was saying that for years, since the war started! People thought it is some kind of joke. But that was the only way to win!



So to pay for the war to stop a new Soviet Union, a bloc of countries that all fear their alliance will turn into a new Soviet Union, must become a new Soviet Union?

Might be a hard sell.



The frozen assets are certainly a strong bargaining chip for future negotiations with Russia.


Macron came out the other day in the interview with Trymp and stated that if the assets were to be seized from Russia that this would be considered payment.


Ah Macron,… the guy who forgets why WWII started and how reparations can turn bad, asked for…reparations.

But Americans don’t understand history?

Macron is off his rocker going down that path given the history around it.



Please tell us why WW2 started and how that is related.


After WW1, in the treaty of Versailles the German Reich, having just lost the war, was made responsible for starting it - it played a part in starting it, but was hardly fully responsible. So its successor state got a huge amount of reparations forced upon. Calling that out was a part of the appeal of the Nazis to the germans.

Now, how that is related to freezing assets from Russia I do not see. Even if interpreted as some kind of reparations, the lesson of that time was not that all reparations lead to a later war. Rather that humiliation will lead to resentment which can lead to war later. Huge and unjust reparations can be a part of that, but that's hardly the scenario we see today.

Macron is (understandably) deeply unpopular in France right now, seems like that seeps into the judgement of his actions here.



Germany was by and large responsible for starting WW1.


"Germany" as we know it today did not exist before or during or even directly after WW1. You could just as easily say e.g. Poland was responsible for WW1 because most of that region was also part of the German Empire.

What's next, making Italy pay reparations for the roman empire? Making Turkey or other arab countries pay reparations for their empires?



I'm not sure what your point is because nobody is suggesting that modern Germany pay reparation for WW1. The discussion was about reparations that Germany has already paid after WW1, imposed on it by the victorious Entente. There's a long-standing historical myth that those reparations were 1) unjustified because Germany was not actually solely or primarily responsible for the war, and 2) excessive. It further goes to claim that this is a big part of why Germany went Nazi and started WW2 eventually. This was, indeed, the prevailing wisdom in the inter-war era, but Fritz Fischer poked a lot of holes in it after WW2.

At this point, while there's still no consensus as to the degree of German responsibility, most historians would weight it significantly higher than that of the Entente. The notion that reparations (and the Treaty of Versailles in general) was particularly onerous and punitive has also been largely debunked. However, the popular understanding still mostly reflects the inter-war consensus and not the later developments.



Some historians agree, some disagree. It's a typical question for your high school history exams. A good one as one can arrive at both answers when looking at the historic facts. In very short: The German Reich wanted that war and pushed it, but so did the other European nations.

But that's not a valid discussion topic for here.



Macron wants to set a precedent of stealing assets so he could then steal citizens assets to pay for the abysmal debt he created.

If he cross the line ("freezing" foreign assets was already a big blow at property rights) I'm relocating and bankrunning whatever I have because it means property rights don't exist anymore in the country.



Why are France and Germany opposed?


They definitely shouldn't be after this. This is the waking point, I've read article today that we could ramp up some serious defense within 5 years on old continent, skillset and money are there. This would massively boost parts of our economies, just like US did in WWII. Use russian assets, use green deal money that is beyond useless effort at this point and most costs are covered.

At the end this may be good for us, since Germany's stance has been pretty much retarded re defense to keep things polite. 4 superpowers instead of 3, albeit maybe Hungary and Slovakia should be kicked out to not sabotage it from within.

It seems an era is ending. Just like it did with 9/11, even outside US. All due to one orange man being voted by >50% americans to do exactly this. Why I don't get and probably never will but he is a symptom of current times IMHO, not a cause.



~30% of voting age Americans voted for the current president. ~29% voted for the other option.


Thats not an insignificant number. This election had the second highest turn out in recorded history(2020 was slightly higher)

https://ballotpedia.org/Election_results,_2024:_Analysis_of_...



This is normal turn out.

Anyway voting is not about recording a talley for every 18+ year old human with a pulse. It’s citizens selecting a leader and policy from their community. Getting your people out to vote is part of the event.



When people choose not to have their vote represented, for whatever reason, when the outcome was so clear in advance, then there is practically, legally, morally and philosophically no distinction between not voting and voting for Trump.


We (Americans) can’t be relied on. Yeah most Americans are still supportive of Europe but our political system produces whipsaw foreign policy. The end result of all this is America is weakened on the global stage as our allies lose faith in us and start working around us. Why should Europeans boycott China, sanction Iran, support Israel, isolate Cuba, intervene in another Iraq? These are American priorities, not European ones.


Because they are a part of NATO and have basically zero military to speak of on their own. There's a reason all of their proposed plans to support Ukraine include an American backstop: because they can't stand on their own and have relied on US military spending for decades to prop themselves up.

Ukraine is not a member of NATO and has no significant mutual defense treaty with America. We intervened nonetheless, to protect Europe. I think we should continue intervening, but I also think it's ludicrous for the EU to threaten to not support America, when they've allowed their military infrastructure to rot away at our expense.



Why do you think the US is going to remain in NATO for the next 4 years? Trump loves to say the quiet part out loud and he’s been repeatedly threatening to pull out.


If the US pulls out of NATO, then it's true that Europe has very little reason to support American interests (unless America "pulls out" of NATO by renegotiating a new mutual defense pact, in which case the countries in that treaty obviously will have plenty of reason to support America — similar to how Trump replaced NAFTA with the USMCA in his first term; which is also what Trump has said he wants to do with NATO).

However, that is an "if" statement that has not come to pass.



Well, threatening to seize an ally's territory kind of put the ally bit in question doesn't it? For all intents and purposes NATO ended existing with Trumps speculation to use military force to seize Greenland. After that statement nobody can consider the US a reliable ally anymore. So.. the US may not have pulled out of NATO^ but there is absolutely no reason to believe in any kind of support being available from the US either.

^which by-the-by is difficult to achieve on a practical level. Notifications of withdrawal have to be handed in to the US government



If you were correct, then European countries wouldn't keep asking that the US sign an agreement to backstop a Ukraine deal — after all, regardless of the paper, the US wouldn't be trusted to do it.

But they are asking for that; I think you should consider why.



The US has successfully created a system that integrates the US economy with Europe, limiting Europe's choices and greatly enriching the US for decades... and then last week JD Vance in Munich yelled at everyone and claimed the EU was somehow stealing money from the US.

A++ gaslighting, great job.



The really funny thing is: Vance is ~right that the Europeans "steal money" from the US. What I do not get is why that is a bad thing. A "trade" nowadays basically always involves one side getting something tangible that they want, be that goods or services or commodities. And the other side getting something intangible claims or money.

If I can get something inherently valuable for essentially nothing but an empty promise? That's an extremely comfortable position to be in..



Look we're all grateful for the Americans that do care about The Alliance but we've seen the political trends in America and it looks bad. You can't elect Trump twice and say it doesn't represent America. Trump's politics isn't going away. The Democrats allowed 'radical' social change to dictate the party platform and didn't implement enough reforms to please the average citizen. Until they do or Trump makes massive blunders we don't have a hope that the old America is coming back.


Everything you're saying about the international trust American voters have betrayed and thrown away is pretty reasonable. But this:

> The Democrats allowed 'radical' social change to dictate the party platform and didn't implement enough reforms to please the average citizen.

is false.

Democratic policy has done plenty to benefit average citizens, in a long tradition (at one point bipartisan) going back to WW2.

And it's never been centered around any idea more "radical" than taking seriously the words of the declaration of independence about equality, inalienable rights, and life liberty and the pursuit of happiness, even for people who are doing something others think is weird.

It's even pretty clear that Democratic policies have strong electoral popularity:

https://today.yougov.com/politics/articles/50802-harris-vs-t...

https://www.dataforprogress.org/insights/2024/8/22/harris-ca...

But "swing" voters (assuming they really exist in any form as popularly understood) among others are often not really clear on who supports the policies they prefer. My suspicion is that this comes from Democratic underinvestment and poor investments in media and culture while their opposition has been doing this aggressively, which allows others to define them as radical.



It’s a grave mistake to assume that some “old” America is ever coming back.


And how many were too apathetic to even bother voting?


> voted by >50% americans

Nobody in the last election got over 50% of the vote tally.



Correct. Trumps final vote tally was 49.7% and somehow is enjoying nearly unchecked power.


49.7% of the 30% of Americans who voted.

Still nowhere near 50% of Americans.



63.9% of the voting eligible population voted. Meaning the other 36.1% voted for "whoever the 64% pick", giving Trump 67.7% of the total vote.


That’s some creative mathematic gymnastics you’re doing there. “Anyone who didn’t vote chose the one who gamed the electoral college best.”

But that still does NOT mean anywhere near half of Americans actively chose the current situation. To say so is wholly, maliciously, egregiously disingenuous.

EDIT - Showing my work:

US Census in 2020 - 331,449,281

2024 Trump votes - 77,284,118

Even skipping any possibility for growth since 2020, 77.3mil/331.5mil is not “>50% of Americans” by any possible mathematical definition.



There was no electoral college gaming in 2024.

You're right that my numbers were of the voting eligible population, though, and not the total population. Okay, so let's work that out.

244,666,890 total eligible voters - 156,336,693 total ballots cast = 88,330,197 passive votes for Trump

88,330,197 passive votes for Trump + 77,284,118 active votes for Trump = 165,613,316 total votes for Trump / 331,449,281 total US population = 49.9% of the total population figure

That is, indeed, just shy of 50%. So I'll concede that Trump did not have >50% of Americans supporting him. Just >50% of American voters.



By your logic the “passive voters” would also support Harris if she were the winner. So you have to count them her way, too.

Which means they cancel out and no, “>50% of Americans” still don’t support the current regime.



No. Passive voters effectively for the winner, not the loser even if they don't know in advance who that will be. They're delegating their decision to their fellow actual voters, whatever that may be. Perhaps it's because they trust others to know better or perhaps because they don't care. I've tried to do this explicitly in a small club election submitting my vote as for "whoever gets the most votes" but the administrators didn't like that :P


Nobody gamed the electoral college this election. Trump won the popular vote too.

Many voters are voting for the lesser of two evils; they don't like either candidate. Non-voters are simply taking that to the next level: they can't decide between two evils strongly enough to value casting a vote.

Bikeshedding over the difference between active vs passive votes in a single-winner first-past-the-post election is fruitless.



If they're truly both evils, there's always the option to do a write-in vote for someone else. Futile? Sure. But hopefully headlines like "X won the election with 30% of the vote" would start to raise eyebrows in ways that "X won the election with 49% of the vote" doesn't.


Go back and read this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43212390

“voted for by >50%” is what I’m refuting. It’s literally, factually untrue.



I didn't argue that Trump received ≥50% of votes cast.

GP's point was that far less than 50% cared enough to vote against Trump, which was their only real option if they didn't like him.



> ll due to one orange man being voted by >50% americans to do exactly this. Why I don't get and probably never will...

Not agreeing is one thing, but it is a remarkably easy decision to understand - people go to WWII because every single war since then has been a disaster for US interests and outcomes (I think every single, certainly most). The last time the US had an unambiguous win by fighting was 70 years ago when they got involved in a fight very late. Since then all the warmongering has made America poorer, they don't achieve anything good and generally make the US worse off.

They made a call that they don't trust the military industrial propaganda and they want to see some peace happening for once. Pretty solid decision too; if we can all have normalised relations with the US after Iraq then we can stomach Russia misbehaving in Ukraine. Escalating a land war in Europe is stupid and its been a mistake every other time the Europeans tried it; even in WWII where they claim to be justified. The blood-lust left everyone closely involved broken and it'd have been better if they found a more peaceful route to ending the violence. The fact that they failed to negotiate something doesn't mean it was impossible.



  The last time the US had an unambiguous win by fighting was 70 years ago when they got involved in a fight very late.
No, it was in 1999. A short aerial bombing campaign that lasted less than 3 months and cost less than 600 lives ended a decade of wars in former Yugoslavia that had killed 140 000 people and made millions refugees. What an incredibly small price to pay for peace.

Ukraine needs the same kind of support, but instead, they got misguided "de-escalation" that only boxed Ukraine in and gave the initiative to Russia. By knowing that the US would force Ukraine to throttle back every time the Russians made a large misstep, Russia was encouraged to keep escalating without the fear of triggering an overwhelming response.



Actually it ended only the Kosovo war, which started few years after the wars with the victims you mention ended.

Can't argue with NATO forces effectiveness in that operation though.



That war was a huge win for the US, much more so than for the reasons you mention there. It was the first time they managed to convince other NATO pact countries to execute a unilateral offensive campaign, until then a defensive alliance. The PR campaign had to be extensive and effective to justify violating the UN charter, and it was - for the first time successfully positioning a US-led NATO-run offensive war as altruistically motivated in the public eye, paving the way for the numerous wars that followed.

The campaign was valuable to everyone involved. The US got to assert itself as a global moral authority, also finally getting to build Camp Bondsteel[0] after decades of trying to build a base in the region (the largest US base on foreign soil since Vietnam, and it was built and managed by KBR meaning Dick Cheney and his shareholders also profited considerably; they've since lost interest so nowadays it's just a mini Gitmo). For the allies that backed them and helped justify the war, they received carte blanche permission to do what they like and settle their own scores. Their Dutch friends, for example, got to brazenly violate international law from the start by dumping their out-of-date depleted uranium cluster bombs on my densely populated home town[1], choosing to target the main building of our university, the main building of our city hospital, and the biggest civilian central steam heating plant that kept half the city warm.

The campaign did have some negative effects though. In the east it was interpreted as a deliberate provocation toward Russia at a time of particular weakness (their president getting hammered and falling out of planes etc), and Putin used this extensively as an example of Russian embarrassment at the hands of the US, helping him rise to power as PM in August '99, acting President in December '99, and President in March '00.

I'm not particularly emotional about any of this btw - I just thought you'd appreciate the geopolitical perspective and the ripple effect that war had on Russian politics & subsequent opinion towards the West.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_Bondsteel

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ni%C5%A1_cluster_bombing



The Russian-leaning world remembers this event differently, they think of it as the US unilaterally bombing Yugoslavia, taking out a Chinese installation full of Chinese nationals, and facing absolutely no consequences or ill effects.

This was one of the factors that guided Putin's thinking when he took Crimea.



If you think a short aerial bombing of Russia would have swiftly ended this war, I have a bridge to sell you.


At the very least, protecting Ukraine's skies when Russia started targeting its cities with missiles would have been exactly the right move, an appropriate international response to warfare against the civilian population. A huge missed opportunity.


"Protecting the skies" is an act of war. Literally. That would mean declaring war on Russia.


Shooting down incoming missiles is not considered an act of war under international law. It falls under self defense. Japan has shot down a number of North Korean missiles and nobody has accused them of declaring war on North Korea.


Shooting down planes is, and that's covered by the no fly zone you're talking about.


Planes stopped flying over Ukrainian-held territory only a few weeks into the invasion. Since then, they've mainly launched glide bombs from far away, due to the high risk of being shot down if they penetrated Ukrainian airspace.

There's nothing preventing Ukraine's allies from setting up air defenses and fighter patrols to shoot down drones and missiles. A number of countries did just that when Iran launched a missile attack on Israel last year.



> Since then, they've mainly launched glide bombs from far away, due to the high risk of being shot down if they penetrated Ukrainian airspace.

And Russia would go back to planes if other countries were shooting down their missiles, because they know that other countries would hesitate to declare war by shooting down one of their planes. Other countries taking over this responsibility neutralizes the air defense against planes.



Ukraine can shoot down planes on its own, that needs no foreign assistance. Feels like you're just looking for excuses to sit idle and give the initiative to the aggressor.


This is simply not the case. There US has very successfully used it’s military to enjoy the position of absolute top dog in the world, but a major part of why they could do that was that the US has made very strong allies in the whole rest of the western world who have never, until now, seen any reason to try to compete with the US in this regard.

A well placed network of foreign aid has also generated influence in other parts of the world.

The United States has now irrevocably destroyed this position.

There will be enough time for the Trump Family and Elon to make out like the bandits they are, but the US position long term is diminished.



Can any of those things be traced back to a specific positive outcome for anyone outside the US weapons industry? Like, say the US hadn't invaded Afghanistan back in '01 and the trillion dollars in budget had been put towards handing out how dinners for the poor instead - what would the negative part of that trade off have been?


> Can any of those things be traced back to a specific positive outcome for anyone outside the US weapons industry

Yes, you have a ton of money to buy stuff that is much cheaper for you than for anyone else in the world because of the global reserve currency being in dollars, not to mention smooth trade guaranteed by the existence of the US navy.

Every thing you do is positively benefited by America's ability to project its military might across the globe.



American hegemony happened by chance, and the dollar just won the reserve currency lottery?

Granted, not every war was a net win but that war machine is uniquely expensive and it may be sacrifice the public is willing to pay. But it probably wouldn't hurt to see how contemporary books on history differs from propaganda.



Even in WW2? You would rather have seen Hitler win?


Wouldn't have happened. A series of impressive military victories early in WWII looms large in peoples heads, but there's no getting away from the raw numbers of how outclassed Germany was wrt material and manpower against the USSR. Barbarossa was launched on very limited, low quality intelligence, and even when more accurate numbers came in regarding Soviet division numbers in 1942, the top brass refused to believe it.


Who can tell what would have happened? It sure would not have been easy without US support:

"... Lend-Lease, including 1,911 locomotives and 11,225 railcars. Trucks were also vital; by 1945, nearly a third of the trucks used by the Red Army were US-built. Trucks such as the Dodge 3⁄4-ton and Studebaker 2+1⁄2-ton were easily the best trucks available in their class on either side on the Eastern Front. American shipments of telephone cable, aluminum, canned rations and clothing were also critical."



> they will never be paid back by the Ukraine

It's "Ukraine," not "the Ukraine." "The Ukraine" is a Russian imperialist term because it's rooted in the idea that Ukraine is a mere territory (akin to "the Great Plains" or "the Midwest") that belongs to a larger political entity.



> the Ukraine

It’s called Ukraine. It would be particularly prudent to avoid using the Soviet-era nomenclature given the context of the conversation you’re participating in.

> "The Ukraine" is incorrect both grammatically and politically, says Oksana Kyzyma of the Embassy of Ukraine in London.

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-18233844



> "The Ukraine" is incorrect both grammatically

That doesn't really make any sense. There is no magical deity that arbitrates rules of English. It is merely a tool invented by humans to use as they please. The only semblance of "incorrectness" that might be found is in failing to communicate with the reader, but in this case you clearly had no trouble understanding what "the Ukraine" meant and I suspect nobody else has either.

> and politically

This makes more sense and is a much stronger point, but political correctness is bound to intent. There is no evidence I can see that suggests "the Ukraine" was previously used with intent to offend or marginalize the people of Ukraine. Even if "the Ukraine" can be used as a politically incorrect device, that does not imply that all usage is politically incorrect.

> It’s called Ukraine.

Officially that is true, but there is typically nothing official about a casual comment made on Hacker News. As before, context is significant, and there is nothing in the context that I can see that suggests that the comment was made in some kind of official capacity.



"The Ukraine" is grammatically incorrect for the same reason "the England" is grammatically incorrect. An article doesn't go there.

The politically incorrect usage here is not bound to intent, because unaware readers will subconsciously lower Ukraine's status in their minds regardless of whether the writer intended them to do so.

The official status, or lack thereof, of the comment doesn't matter either. There is no compelling reason to not use the accepted name. If your friend was called James, would you intentionally call him "the James" just because you're not making an official statement? That doesn't make any sense.



> "The Ukraine" is grammatically incorrect for the same reason "the England" is grammatically incorrect.

It is grammatically atypical, perhaps, but not incorrect. It is fundamentally impossible to use English 'incorrectly'. The closest you can get to any semblance of 'incorrectness' is failing to communicate with the reader. But that is certainly not the case here. Everyone is well aware that in the above comment 'the Ukraine' refers to Ukraine.

> The politically incorrect usage here is not bound to intent, because unaware readers will subconsciously lower Ukraine's status in their minds regardless of whether the writer intended them to do so.

A faulty lowering of Ukraine's status may be politically incorrect, but the words are not to blame. That's your fault for thinking about its status improperly. There is no onus on the writer to worry about a failing mind. If there were, communication would be out of the question.

> If your friend was called James, would you intentionally call him "the James" just because you're not making an official statement?

I personally would not be intentional when writing casually. That defeats the purpose of writing casually. If I happened to put "the" down on paper I certainly wouldn't put in the effort to remove it. Who cares? Assuming the context is otherwise clear, nobody is going to be confused about who "the James" is.



It's Ukraine not the Ukraine.


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Shall they give their children to Putin instead?


there are reasonable policies between "give ukraine everything she possibly wants to protract a war of attrition that risks backing a nuclear power into a corner" and "tell ukraine to pound sand and kiss putin's ring."

for instance, EU states were repeatedly warned about their reliance on russian energy. the EU preferred to empower putin and constrain future actions in exchange for cheap power. perhaps, rather than passing the next massive aid bill, the EU could focus on hurting the aggressor state by literally just not sending her more money on a regular basis. eurocrats continue to, thanks to their reckless energy policy, literal billions of dollars straight to the Kremlin with which she can finance her expansionist war. stopping that would be a great first place to start.

or perhaps EU states could have gotten their act together faster and sent more than busted old helmets (cough Germany cough). trump says a lot of dumb stuff but he's entirely correct that europe has repeatedly failed to adequately invest in her own defense, particular since she has an aggressive, expansionist, would-be-again superpower on her eastern border. then when America doesn't pony up what europe thinks is enough, she goes on a whining tour and asks why the evil Americans won't spend enough money and lives to fight fascism.



I’m not sure it will help if we disclose taxpayers that the loan won’t be paid back. The idea was to sweep it under the rug, not boast about the EU’s lost money.


Noone in Europe knows these are loans. Everyone assumes the money is gone. Politicians don’t talk about loans, they talk about giving money to Ukraine.

Loans are the way to do it because of the way most European budgets work. But you can’t call them regular loans in good faith, and no politician in Europe does so. The language towards the public is that Europe is giving money.



[flagged]



That's just a technicality. There is no "EU" tax so the institutions does not have the billions to give away. They can however secure loans so that is the method being used. But make no mistake what is happening here.

Look at the backing countries and how they are spending on Ukraine. There you will see the direct donations.

No EU member country has yet to make a billion dollar repayment claim post facto. Certainly not five hundred billion.



I don’t see how you’re describing anything other than what I’ve described.

The money may come from the private sector, but the government guarantees for it. This is government spending.

On paper, the government may theoretically not have to pay, but in practice everyone knows that the loans aren’t paid back and then the government must pay for them.

These loans really are just creative accounting for giving money within the budgetary constraints European governments find themselves in.



Better than Russia salami-slicing its way into Europe.

Ukranians are dying. We're donating cash and materiel. We're getting the better end of the deal there, and then some.



>Ukranians are dying.

Of course they are, what did you expect would happen in war? Fighting with pillows? However it's not my responsibility to bear financially. My responsibility is caring for my own.

>We're donating cash

People are dying here as well as politicians are saying the healthcare is underfunded so clearly we need the cash back home.



No one will bother about those loans when a Ukrainian victory will give the EU access to at least the Ukrainian market if not also the market of a new democratic Russia. Please do some long-term thinking on this.


There are reasons why the EU should support the Ukraine, but access to the Ukrainian market isn't one of them.

The Ukrainian GDP is 179 billion USD (https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/gdp?continent=euro...); they're a market smaller than Greece (244 billion USD) or Hungary (212 billion USD). If they succeed in driving the Russians out, they'll have to rebuild their country and will probably be in debt for decades.

Democracy in Russia is a pipe dream; they have nuclear weapons and Putin isn't about to give up power. I guess it's possible that his successor could hold elections, but that's highly unlikely at best.



EU companies want the natural resources of Ukraine and access to their cheap labor.


But people are bothered about affording food and rent now, and when they see their tax euros aboard they're gonna be salty, and speak of potential future winnings (which are all gonna go to some megacorps anyway) are not comforting.


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Oh, you mean their children would be so much happier under Russia's rule once it invades more European countries? Those people may argue with that.


> This is false. The EU has put up more money than the US but they have not _donated_ more money than the US.

That's not quite right, either. A large portion if not a majority of the financial aid from the US is--and tacitly required to be--spent on purchase of weapons and services from US defense contractors. That's in addition to direct military aid where the Pentagon directly purchases and transfers weapons, and transfers old weapons--I think the replacement cost is what's calculated as the US "contribution" for that portion.

This is how military aid packages are structured for Israel and Egypt also. I don't mean to insinuate anything negative, but the reality is that the majority of all this aid is effectively a direct subsidy to US defense contractors.

The EU does the same thing, but the structure and pretense is different--loans tacitly required to be used to buy EU weapons and services, the loans forgiven after the public stops paying attention. Though in the case of Ukraine I think a much larger portion (relative to US) of aid is intended for civilian programs, at least early on, on account of the EU's squeamishness.



The US has mostly donated their obsolete weapons that were going to be decommissioned anyway. While expensive, they would’ve otherwise cost the US money to decommission instead.


Are you referring to ATACMS, Hi-Mars, M777's and M1 Abrams, the backbone of the US military and many of its allies? The materiel currently used all over the world? That 'obsolete' heavy weaponry?[0]

Or is it the thousands of Javelins that annihilated the Russian tank columns so that the Russians are currently mounting assaults in Chinese golf carts?[1]

[0] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62002218

[1] https://www.kyivpost.com/post/43685



Yes! ATACMS is legacy.

There were only a few M1s given. MANY more M1s were used against the Iraqi Army!

The stream of weapons has been more of a trickle of weapons. The Javelins have good PR with the nice Saint Javelin but the British-Swedish N-LAWs are wicked and the tens of thousands of the Bofors AT4 did a lot of the initial grunt work.



There is no proper replacement for ATACMS yet. At the projected rate of production for the new replacement missile, a years worth would last about a couple weeks of usage in a serious conflict. ATACMS are still 100% valuable to the US.

> A total of 110 PrSMs are expected to be procured in fiscal 2024 and 190 in fiscal 2025, Inside Defense wrote, citing the Department of Defense documents.

https://thedefensepost.com/2024/03/07/lockheed-precision-str...



What did we replace "legacy" ATACMS with we could use in a war today? PrSM?

In November 2023, the Army delivered the first four Precision Strike Missiles (PrSM) as an early operational capability (EOC). The Army shot two PrSM EOC missiles at a maritime target in June 2024. Between November 2023 and August 2024, the Army executed three production qualification test (PQT) events. The Army intends to complete a limited user test (LUT) with the fifth PQT test event in 1QFY25 and the remaining four planned PQT test events by 3QFY25.

https://www.dote.osd.mil/Portals/97/pub/reports/FY2024/army/...



Not to mention that maintaining M1s must be a nightmare.

The Ukrainians seem to prefer the Bushmasters. This kind of makes sense, given it seems a lot of what Ukraine is doing is guerrilla warfare then equipment that is easily serviceable likely is more useful.



ATACMS... The ones Biden reluctantly donated after Ukraine begged for them because they can strike deeper behind the frontlines and inside Russian territory? They may be an older platform but they appear to be highly desirable and still brought out for juicy targets.

It was 31 M1s donated, last time I looked. And they survived a helluva lot longer against the droneless Iraqi Army, which helps explain the low number. A $500 drone can ignite a $5M tank. Drones have changed the calculus of tank warfare.

Maybe the AT4 and NLAW didn't have the same effectiveness of Javelin? The Javelin has had a pretty good PR campaign with it's point and destroy videos.



>A $500 drone can ignite a $5M tank. Drones have changed the calculus of tank warfare.

No. What you see in Ukraine is the 20th century war with some drones. Active defense system can take out RPG and anti-tank missile. It can easily take out a much slower moving drone. Unfortunately, the Western tanks and IFVs came to Ukraine without ADS (and many even without reactive armor). And for whatever reason Ukraine was pretty slow to put passive drone defenses onto the armor - you can see on the videos of the Ukrainian 2023 counter-offensive that the Western tanks and IVF are mostly "naked", just the bare base armor.

There are stories - videos - from recent decade how tanks correctly "dressed up" with passive defenses and reactive armor would survive direct hits from Javelin, RPG, etc., in some cases it would even survive multiple hits from RPG. And active defense system is a huge step up even from that.

If anything, with the next generation of active defense systems being able to shoot down even incoming artillery/tank gun round, the tanks will continue to rule the battlefield, especially in autonomous version.



If you've been watching the war you'll notice that tanks are largely absent from battle these days. Russia had thousands more tanks than Ukraine 3 years ago, and now is scrounging the last of its inventory leftover from WWII.

The Super Tank™ you've described sounds cool, though. Can Ukraine order 1000 of the upgraded version with lasers for Spring delivery?



>Russia had thousands more tanks

watch the videos from the war - the tanks are mostly without ADS, and the ADS that Russia has is really a crappy one. You can also watch videos how soldiers shoot down the drones with shotgun or just using some stick/stone. Drones are much easier to shoot down than RPG, and nobody has been able to shoot down RPG with shotgun (a great baseball player probably would be able with some non-zero probability to bat an RPG out though).

>Can Ukraine order 1000 of the upgraded version with lasers for Spring delivery?

No. Even the existing ADS with shrapnel warheads are not sold to Ukraine.



No navy would deploy a battleship today, no matter how good an anti-missile system it had. Only needs to miss one, and battleships just cost way way more than even a thousand missiles. Plus ballistic artillery just isn’t that useful compared to what a drone or cruise missle can do.


What's the cost of all your whizzbang technology? Does it cost $10M or $20M per tank to make? And how quickly are they produced? Maybe 1-2 per month? And how many years does it take to modify or improve them?

Now compare that to the hundreds of thousands of drones manufactured every month for far less and adapted monthly.

We've already seen mothership drones used in Ukraine.[0] How long do you think it will be until we see fire and forget multiple attack baby drones that overwhelm any whizzbang ADS? 6 months, a year? As the old saying goes: quantity has a quality all it's own.

Sorry tankies, your time is over.

[0] https://interestingengineering.com/military/ukraine-forces-t...



The US clearly donates obsolete weapons to Ukraine, and then ships the snazzy new super deadly stuff to Israel.


Yes, expired ammunition and equipment waiting to be recycled.

Bradleys waiting for scrapping at Red River Army Depot, Texas

expired ATACMS https://bulgarianmilitary.com/2023/10/05/m39a1-atacms-for-uk...

3 million DPICM waiting for expensive disposal



The west made these weapons to counter Russian tanks. Every Javelin fired by a Ukrainian takes out one more tank that we don't have to worry about.


They didnt send their newst javelins. They send their oldest.


A man-portable, fire-and-forget anti-tank guided missile system before its expiration date is still a man-portable, fire-and-forget anti-tank guided missile system.


It is however not worth as much to the US than a man-portable, fire-and-forge anti-tank guided missile system that they won't have to replace for much longer.


"How dare you refer to our weapons designed to fight in eastern europe against Russia. We need those weapons in the USA in case we have to.. fight... in eastern europe... against... russia?"


US never wanted to fight Russia directly as it would mean nuclear escalation.

US needs somewhat strong Russia as a scarecrow for Europe and everyone else in the world, so that people would join NATO and pay 4% of GDP to the American military industrial complex: Lockheed Raytheon and friends.

The goal is to scare people and force them to shell out dough for overpriced US weapons.

If Russia becomes too weak, there are two risks:

  1. Nuclear/Biowarfare proliferation due to instability inside RU
  2. Europe won't spend a dime procuring US weapons because Russia would not be a threat anymore
  3. China can increase influence in Russia
so American goal is to keep somewhat stable Russia and force EU to shell dough on US weapons. Thats the racket, everything else is a distraction


>pay 4% of GDP to the American military industrial complex

The target is 2%, most of NATO doesn't hit it, and there's plenty of European arms manufacturers.



What about china as a weapons exporter?


Yeah man all that stuff was built in the 80s to counter the Soviet threat. We have better stuff now.


Having stockpiles of obsolete weapons to give away is a byproduct of having funded our military for decades. If other NATO countries were doing likewise they, too, would have stockpiles of obsolete weapons to give away.

The fact that it's just the US doing this is indicative of the overall military posture of the EU. It's reasonable to question whether they are prepared to do their part to defend themselves should Russia penetrate further west.



Plenty of european countries have given both stockpiles and modern weapons.

As an example sweden has given Strv-122, CV90, Archer, Saab 340 AEW&C and has offered Gripen fighter jet (but Gripen has been blocked by US/France). All of those are up to date weaponry, and besides that much from older stockpiles has been given.

That's just one example from one small country with less people than one city in the US.



This has very long term repercussions for the US. No-one is making the mistake of using a US jet engine in their design again and getting export controls because of that. Already plans are evaluated for switching to an upgraded Volvo RM12 or something from Rolls-Royce.

The same scenes must be playing out in various industries across Europe and the rest of the world. Such wheels turn very slowly, but they now turn away from the US defense industry.

The US has burned a lot of capital today.



Certainly a world where NATO countries spend <2% of their budget on defence but the shiny new weaponry all comes from US contractors doesn't seem obviously more helpful than one where they're targeting 3% spend but making a point of building domestic industries or buying from pan-European projects.


Plenty of NATO members already build and buy from non-US sources. France basically made it a principle because of their historic fence-sitting NATO policy, Sweden mostly builds its own (but licenses parts from US/UK like fighter engines), other countries are buying artillery or tanks from south korea, etc. The US itself buys anti-tank weapons and riverine patrol boats from sweden, dutch rifles, german handguns and much more.

"but the shiny new weaponry all comes from US contractors" is not true.

It is true that the US has spent far more on it's military and made it far more global than any other country. It is also true that the US acted as a guarantor for west Europes security for most of the last 70 years and that should not be understated. That era seems to have come to an end.



I'm not suggesting the US has ever been literally the only NATO member supplying arms. I'm suggesting US companies have gone from the top of the list for a lot of procurement contracts to the bottom.


Can you give us a source for those plans? i’m really interested in that.


> Saab 340 AEW&C and has offered Gripen fighter jet (but Gripen has been blocked by US/France).

US also blocked awacs, no Saab for Ukraine.



Stockpiles of obsolete weapons are exactly the military aid other countries have been giving to Ukraine. You may want to check your sources.


Yeah! Just from Czech Republic - our old Mi-24 are shooting down Shahed drones daily, some of the first tan shipments were czech t-72s, we sent our old Kub SAM bateries, Vampire MRLS, BMPs, etc.


> The European Union says EU countries have provided around $145bn in aid so far and that just 35% of that has been loans

Sounds like the opposite of what you said.

Are you referring to Government support for Ukraine chart?

That shows the EU institutions made mainly loans but there is also money from countries of the EU.

And for some loans Ukraine isn't expected to pay anything, with repayments coming from revenues from frozen Russian assets.



The EU froze over 200 billion Euros from Russian assets. Russia will never see that money again. Once Putin is defeated Ukraine's debt will be paid with that.

Also, please do think long-term: A victory for Ukraine and a second try for democracy in Russia will mean that the EU will regain huge markets right at its doorstep that need rebuilding and in the case of Russia some diversification would be sensible.



Isn't Trump now trying to make Ukraine give up natural resources now? That doesn't quite meet my definition of "donation".


That is not how the EU does these kinds of things. These loans are without any expectations of payback.


If Trump has his way, the US's "support" will have been in exchange for rare earth minerals. Not really support in the end though, if Ukraine doesn't get any security guarantee.


Not sure why Ukraine would believe any new agreement would be honored when the Budapest Memorandum turned out to be worth less than the paper it was written on.


Including loans that they want Russia to pay off, with millions in seized russian oligarch assets used as collaterals


They have, but they need to double it. You can't count on the US anymore, and Ukraine needs a lot more than it's getting.

And let's face it, the EU can easily afford it. Sure it hurts a bit. But more war with Russia hurts a lot more. The cheapest way out is to stop Russia in Ukraine, and not give him the opportunity to try again in a few years.



We can afford it, but it is very difficult to do politically. The rise of far-right parties has everyone spooked, and in ageing societies pensioners cost more and more money, while holding most of the wealth, and constituting the majority of the voting power. Working people feel increasingly disenfrenchised, and it is only going to get worse. At the same time we are judging climate change to still be a larger problem (or we are at least investing a lot more money into it), and there's this horrific fetish for fiscal conservatism in law and in practice.


If pensioners have most of the wealth, then they should pay those working class people higher wages to take care of them in their old age. That's one factor of many in to end this disenfranchisement.


Ukraine needs more manpower primarily, they keep saying it for a long time this is a critical issue, they have relatively enough equipment for waging war. At the end equipment can't solve it all, enough boots on the ground is what conquers or defends territories.


Says who?

They don't even have enough 155 shells, long range drones, body armour, training facilities, fighter jets, bombers, cruise missiles, tanks, howitsers. The list goes on and on. It's exactly the opposite of what you are claiming.

They had to develop their own long range drones instead of getting off-the-shelf stuff. Germany blocked Taurus, Tomahawks were a no-go.

(The US gave 31 M1 tanks! That's pitiful...)



Says Michael Kofman.


>Says who?

Says Ukrainian soldiers, reported by Western and Ukrainian media outlets.

https://archive.is/Pzxl2 (Economist, Feb2025)

https://english.nv.ua/nation/generalsyrskyi-says-he-banned-t... (NV Ukraine, Jan 2025) However, certain categories of Air Force personnel, after preliminary training in training centers, are reinforcing the Ground Forces and Air Assault Forces due to a shortage of personnel on the front.

https://archive.is/YGR00 (WSJ, Oct2024)

https://archive.is/WKqxz (Financial Times, Oct2024 but updated) The commanders estimated that 50 to 70 per cent of new infantry troops were killed or wounded within days of starting their first rotation.

So if they don't have manpower OR enough weapons, maybe when their head of state comes to ask for support from their biggest benefactor, he should, I dunno....not piss off his host? Wouldn't that help him get what he wants?



I guess it shows how critical is technology that keeps the human away from harms reach. Drones are a great example of that, especially how costly/hard it is to train a jet pilot.

With (almost) fully autonomous weapons and systems it comes down to simply who has the better economy and production lines.



How can you afford an indefinite war against a nuclear power? He will just drag you into a quagmire, which always works against the west. I'm genuinely curious what strategy Europe will have here to squeeze Russia.


Nukes don't give Russia infinite resources. Russia's economy is suffering. They've mostly ran out of modern tanks (except for the T-14 which still hasn't seen combat somehow), they're using donkeys for trucks now, their artillery has lost the punch it had two years ago. They're mostly sending demoralized soldiers in deadly human wave assaults, and dropping bombs on cities. That's all they've got left.

Russia has the economy of a medium-sized EU nation. The EU is vastly more powerful. If the EU wants to, they can give Ukraine everything they need to win. Only they're divided and unwilling to believe in their strength after 80 years of dependency on the US.



>Russia has the economy of a medium-sized EU nation. The EU is vastly more powerful.

This is why GDP is a useless metric. Last year it was reported Russia was manufacturing 3x more artillery shells than the US and whole EU combined.[1] Billion-dollar cosmetics and luxury goods industries don't translate well into battlefield success.

>If the EU wants to, they can give Ukraine everything they need to win.

Except manpower, which Ukraine needs and doesn't have.

[1] https://edition.cnn.com/2024/03/10/politics/russia-artillery...



This is hopeful news, because we need a leader right now.


https://thehill.com/homenews/5170019-european-union-diplomat...

> EU’s top diplomat: ‘The free world needs a new leader’



> Only they're divided and unwilling to believe in their strength after 80 years of dependency on the US.

And perhaps a tiny bit cautious about escalating a conflict with a neighbouring country that happens to have the world's second largest nuclear arsenal?



I’ve heard (can’t recall source) that a good proportion of Russia’s nuclear arsenal hasn’t been maintained and is no longer operational.


That is absolutely a possibility, but not a certainty, and a very dangerous gamble to make. That said, Europe probably does need its own nuclear deterrent and its own anti-ballistic missile defense.


But is that a game of Russian roulette you'd want to play?


No one wants to play that game. The Russians boast about the nuclear bombs, then suddenly goes quiet.

They were going to use them if Ukraine entered Russian soil!

Then they declared that parts of Ukraine was Russia. Ukraine took back some cities on supposedly "holy Russian soil" and nothing happened.

Then Ukraine took a chunk out of (actually) Russian Kursk. Suddenly no talk of nukes for a while.

What would they do with the nukes? Suicide?



The nukes are to help with the Second Coming of Jesus. No, really:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_Orthodoxy



They only need one working nuke out of their 6000. I'm sure at least one of them is operational.


If they only have one and they use it, they've effectively solved the Russia problem themselves.


Even if not “operational” you could strap the warhead to a conventional bomb and really ruin a cities next few hundred years.


Afghanistan could afford an indefinite war against a superpower twice in the past 50 years.


Not being flat as a pancake could have played a role, though.


We burn cash at the front and the richest nation wins.


Especially when that nuclear power is Russia. After all, if we had to credit a single country, Russia defeated both Napoleon and Hitler.


Does this confer from the depth of history, current Russia some magical abilities in the present?

This is magical thinking. Russia is near bankrupt.



> Russia is near bankrupt.

First, I've been hearing it all my life. More often after 2014, and very often since 2022. In 2022, it was "russia has days left of reserves".

Second, nationalism was always (since 1300s?) strong in there. It always united russians against the enemy even if they hated the goverment. That's why every incrusion attempt always failed.



Sure. We don't need incursions. They can stay and be nationalistic all they want.

We need to keep applying pressure until something breaks. There's a constant refrain of "Sanctions don't work. Please stop the sanctions." from the Kremlin.



> Sanctions don't work. Please stop the sanctions.

Examples? All I can see is majority of russians living their life as usual. Sure some transplants in Moscow are sad that their consumarism routine got distracted, but that is it.

As for money frozen in EU, IIRC most of it aren't realted to the goverment and just happened to be in trasit when sanctions started.

Every oligarch knows that Putin is the hand that feeds and biting it at best gets you in prison at worst an express descend to the ground.



In general I don't think sanctions work. They're clearly not working against Russia. EU countries still use tons of Russian gas, they just pay 5X more than they used to because now they have to stick their fingers in the ears and cover their eyes and buy the gas re-routed through India or Azerbaijan at a premium while they pretend they are no longer buying Russian gas. It is quite silly.

but sanctions clearly destroyed Syria.



Pure cope, how well did the sanctions strategy work? I hear US companies are returning soon


But they lost to Afghanistan and Finland.


And a naval engagement to the Czech Foreign Legion :) Russia has historically been very good at killing off invading armies through attrition, but that's not necessarily a strength when they're the invading army in similarly inhospitable conditions


Everyone who invades Afghanistan loses - the only winning move is not to play.


They didn't lose to Finland, they forced them to sign a treaty whereby Finland gave up territory.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_Peace_Treaty

Finland fought exceptionally well, which shocked the world, but they still lost the winter war.



they use winter like a nuclear deterrent. It’s as good as having an ocean.


Russia didn't lose to Afghanistan, rather Russia, Ukraine and Belarus dismantled the Soviet era occupation force. In fact the pro-Soviet government of Afghanistan lasted 3 more years on its own - unlike the US installed government which collapsed before US troops left.


That's not true. The last Soviet soldier has left Afghanistan way before the USSR disintegrated.


So, Russia, Ukraine and Belurus lost to Afghanistan.


Easy to defend mega land with harsh winters (but not so harsh anymore as they were during those failed campaigns), especially when both defeated invading armies severely underestimated... cold weather. Nobody is really invading russia here, whole world just wants to be left alone from them, including all former soviet republics (funnily this includes Belarus too).

That's not saying anything about their offensive capabilities, which as whole world sees are a fraction of what was thought about them. They really are supremely ineffective, corrupt and lazy in numbers and levels that cripple whole war for them. They can't produce enough new armed vehicles and their stockpiles from cold war are running very thin as per independent satellite analyses, they use stolen motorbikes, donkeys and golf karts for troopers now (with corresponding death rate). Their nuclear weapons are just a guarantee they won't be attacked on Moscow conventionally or nuclear in any way, nothing more. As we see all other 'doctrines' and 'red lines' fell apart with long lasting incursion in Kursk so that was just an empty bullshit.

They know all this, their country is falling into inflation spiral which can easily end up with people's revolt and I believe puttin' realizes how fragile his relatively soft power grip on russia is. Plus he has positioned himself as an arbiter between various power clans within his hierarchy, not as a single supreme single ruler whom everybody fears for life like in North Korea for example. He desperately needs to finish this war within a year or two since he is an extremely paranoid person. But he has some sort of effective reach or control over orange man and we saw what we saw, who knows why.



Only thing the Russian people have to fear is falling out of a balcony in a hotel, those things are REALLY dangerous


The trick is to avoid invading them and make them come out to play.


>Russia defeated both Napoleon and Hitler.

In Russia. In fact it was Russia's winter the one who did most of the work. The Russian army was always very bad.

Now Putin is Napoleon or Hitler invading other countries.



Myth. Russia had superior tanks and manpower. German high command had no idea of the depth of Russias armament industry or the number of troops (see eg the Hitler/Mannheim conversation).

Yes the winters did help, but they were still outnumbered, and outproduced.



Nonsense. Yes on tanks and manpower, but the Russians would've starved without lend lease. Both in Industry and in aggregate.

The only reason they could make all those tanks in the first place was because of American trucks.



A few million Soviets starving would not have changed the outcome.


> After all, if we had to credit a single country, Russia defeated both Napoleon and Hitler.

So did the UK, so what’s your point?



My point is that the Russian people have a capacity for self-sacrifice that shouldn't be underestimated, especially when their (perceived) sovereignty is threatened.

During WW2, for example, the Soviets lost a total of 20-27 million dead. Only China, a country almost three times as populous, came close at 15-20 million.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties#Total_...

The British Empire lost less than 500,000.



The only sovereignty being threatened here is Ukraine's.

That's the important bit. Russia needs to source soldiers from prisoners and North Koreans.



My theory is Russia can continue to produce long range weapons and drones in factories near the Urals or even beyond in Siberia, far out of reach of anything the Ukrainians can get their hands on, and just outproduce the Ukrainians as long as it takes.


They're certainly trying. Had you asked me before the full scale invasion, I would have answered differently. But Ukraine still stands, and it's looking more and more like a Finland-like situation. After all the repatrionization propaganda that doesn't look good for Putin. And the Russian economy absolutely suffers from this, we just don't know how much.


The Soviet Union lost 20m+ dead because they faced an existential threat from an enemy that intentionally massacred many millions of people who lived there (including people who weren't particularly enamoured with the idea of a Soviet Union or Stalin as leader)

The situation isn't quite that bad in either Russia or Ukraine which was also one of the constituent parts of the Soviet Union. But it's certainly closer in Ukraine, even if most Russians hold an irrational level of enthusiasm for the war



It won't be indefinite, eventually the nukes will fly. On a long enough timescale, whether it's this war or the next or the one after that we humans are going to pull the nuclear trigger. The question is "for what reason?" This seems as good a reason as you can have. Much better than an accident or miscalculation.


The European countries that aren't closely allied with Russia and don't have nuclear power plants all over the place have collapsing economies because they're paying 5X what they used to for Russian gas.

It's really grim.

I don't think the EU thinks it can afford it at this time.



Sources, please. And pay attention to dates, it's not 2022 anymore.


Loans are not the same as heavy weaponry and intelligence.

Other American administrations have been spending decades begging NATO allies to keep their militaries up to a higher standard. Their refusal to do so is now coming back to haunt the world order.



"Their refusal to do so is now coming back to haunt the world order."

I would think, the US going against the International Court of Justice, threatening allies over land and making deals with a official emperor is doing worse.



I hadn't heard about anyone becoming officially an emperor recently. Who are you referring to?


Putin obviously. And no, "formally" he is surely a elected president. Just one who talks about and compares himself to the great emperors of russian past a lot and acts pretty much the same.


Okay, so when you said official, you meant unofficial. Got it. I'm with you completely on the rest of it.


No, I meant de facto official. Putin is de facto a emperor, just not de jure. (but not need to further do pedantic semantics ..)


That's now how "official" works. ;)


Keep up with times man. "de facto" now connotes "de jure" just as "literally" connotes metaphorically.


Good luck with that. ;)


It does seem there's been plenty of actual arms, vehicles etc in military aid from European countries to Ukraine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_aid_to_Ukrain...

And the share of NATO members meeting a 2% of GDP target is now a majority, after recent marked increases. https://www.nato.int/nato_static_fl2014/assets/pdf/2024/6/pd...



You are echoing Russian propaganda. European states are not expecting money back from Ukraine.




You realise in a propaganda war, parts of each sides propaganda are bound to be objectively true, right?

It's not like one side just lies and the other side just tells the truth. This isn't a movie.



Isn't it heavy weaponry is mostly the junk that US military didn't want to use. Mostly expired weapons.


It's the stuff from the 80s and 90s designed to turn back a Russian land invasion in Europe.

It's proven to be perfectly adequate for the job.



It's stuff that would actually cost to trash, the us is at least a generation ahead of that equipment.


There are some cases where that is true, there are some cases where Ukraine got the same stuff that is current with the US, and there are cases where Ukraine was literally the first user of new tech (the GLSDB, for instance.)

One reason for this mix is that the Russo-Ukrainian war has defied some US expectations of what future wars it might need to deal with might look like, making previously-retired equipment relevant again (the drone war has made a lot of retired anti-aircraft tech more relevant, because relative cheap short-range missiles and short range anti-aircraft guns are a lot more useful against drones than they are against modern fighters, for instance) and, in other cases driving new weapons development.



>the us is at least a generation ahead of that equipment.

Can you list the in service equipment that is a generation ahead of M777 and ATACMs? I sure wish we could get some of these wiz-bang fires assets out here in the First Island Chain.



While a replace for M777 may not be in service, the US had stopped manufacturing and continued only after Ukraine requested it. This indicates that it isn’t an integral tool to the US’ arsenal, and has been superseded.

> November 2024 BAE announced the opening of a new artillery factory in Sheffield during 2025 to resume production of complete M777 artillery pieces for Ukraine and to help fulfil orders for fresh titanium cast spare parts from the US supplementing its US parts factory which also resumed production during 2024.

Similarly, ATACMs production was also halted.

Really, your question, tone and phrasing really indicates that you are not really looking for an actual conversation but rather a gotcha moment.

It’s worth noting that variants of weapons and exist, and sending older ones to Ukraine does not imply that it is getting access to newest and greatest.



I made some grammar errors when i was writing this — i was on the phone. The gist is there; both weapons had their manufacturing ceased which means either the US had enough stockpiles or they were superseded.

The weapons were either sold to Ukraine or other countries, and it was only after Ukraine requested more of them that production started again, which implies the US had no need to produce them because they were superseded in US’ arsenal.

Furthermore, just because Ukraine received X weapon, doesn’t mean they received the latest and greatest variant that’s in use — they might have very well received a previous generation of said weapon.

Asking which weapon or system replaced them as is in service does not look like discussing in good faith simply because the systems might change or newer variants may be used.

Do better.



>which implies the US had no need to produce them because they were superseded in US’ arsenal.

No, it does not imply that they were superseded. It means that the stockpile of weapons and spare parts was considered large enough to support the US's expected burn rate of material. Supplying Ukraine in a peer conflict changed that calculus, requiring new production to keep parts supplies above a certain desired threshold. The M777 is proving to be....not that reliable in the harsh conditions of the Eastern Front.[1][2]

>Furthermore, just because Ukraine received X weapon, doesn’t mean they received the latest and greatest variant that’s in use — they might have very well received a previous generation of said weapon.

This is supposition on your part....and it's WRONG. That's my point. You're simply stating things that are factually incorrect. Ukraine received M777A2s[3], the most modern variant of the M777 in service with US forces.[4]

>Asking which weapon or system replaced them as is in service does not look like discussing in good faith simply because the systems might change or newer variants may be used.

>Do better.

It's not a question of "variants", it's not a question of whether systems "might change", and it's not an issue of grammar errors. You made a false statement, perhaps unknowingly. I asked you to clarify with specifics, perhaps you know some weapon system I'm not aware of (despite having a rough idea of the IOC fielding plan for Marine fires assets in my AO over the next several years), and you've now made 2 posts bereft of details or references to obfuscate the fact that your original post was completely wrong and baseless. All this does is lower HN's already-low signal-to-noise ratio on military subjects.

US Army and USMC towed Field Artillery batteries are equipped with M777A2, the same weapons platform and variant we sent to Ukraine. We are not "a generation ahead" of the equipment sent to Ukraine. Period.

[1] https://www.twz.com/land/ukraine-is-burning-through-155mm-m7...

[2] https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/25/us/ukraine-artillery-brea...

[3] https://newsukraine.rbc.ua/news/m777a2-howitzer-proves-to-be...

[4] https://www.army-technology.com/projects/ufh/



What i do not get is the lack of understanding that contractsecurity goes with the western world order too. Investments worldwide are as safe as a owing a mc donalds in russia, in a multipolar autorian world. How a whole world is willing to risk their retirement funds and pensions like this, for peanuts..


> Their refusal to do so is now coming back to haunt the world order.

That is partially true, but the world order would be in tatters because of Trump, regardless of the military spending of the rest of NATO.



Trump is merely another step in the bar being lowered. And make no mistake, it can go lower.

The Western acceptance of authoritarianism in exchange for a good deal is what got us here. It's not just the US; it's Europe too. Putin did what he did because he knew that Europe was willing to exchange the end of Russian subordination to the post-Cold War world order for cheap gas. Middle Eastern countries have seen their awful human rights records punished by the granting of a World Cup by FIFA and European tourism to Dubai. Both China and Russia were made Olympic hosts in the last 20 years. Russia hosted a World Cup in 2018, four years after the invasion of Crimea and ten years after its invasion of Georgia.

The message? Authoritarianism pays.



Well China's economy is currently tied up in a housing pyramid scheme that's gone burst.

Russia's economy is on such a war footing regardless of if it wins or losses in Ukraine, the economic shock of the end of the war will bankrupt the country. See Dutch disease.

And no one wants to host the Olympics, it's a huge money sink.

So it doesn't really pay, it's just bankrupts you. Even Trump's America is having massive stock sell offs and other countries dumping the dollar.



I'm not going to dis anything the EU has done so far. I'll give high fives for everything.

But the rollout was slow, they seemed reluctant, some countries didn't want to be involved at all, and they waited for the US for a long time...



The EU member states have their own foreign policy and extensive veto rights within the federation. It is not so strange that the EU itself has been slow, if anything I think we have pulled together better than expected.

Individual member countries range from having done a lot fairly quickly to active sabotage. We have member countries like Hungary and Slovakia, who are firmly aligned with the Russian side, as if 1956 and 1968 and the entire iron-curtaint-thing never happened.



Fico in Slovakia is a hopefully crumbling anomaly- the previous governement (while a bit unstable) donated a lot of material, including a criticalzly needed S-300 battery and Mig-29 jets. And even with all the Ficos rambling, Slovakia is making good money selling artillery (both SPGs and ammo) to Ukraine.


Of course, everyone in Slovakia (or Hungary) are not firmly aligned with Russia. I hope the scales tip west-ward in the next elections.


In the case of Hungary, Orbans behavior is double embarassing, given the bloody soviet invasion they suffered in 1956:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_Revolution_of_1956



The problem is, Fico and his alikes are popular in Slovakia. They are not anomaly, they truly represent what majority finds appealing.

Many if not most Slovakians want to be like Fico, earn money like him and be like him.

It can be beaten, but it is not an anomaly. Not even historically, slovakia was quick to collaborate with nazi and communists.



Austria donated what amounts to a couple of helmets but no one is talking about that. Must be nice being surrounded by NATO countries and a wealthy world police state across the world you can free-ride.


The EU has probably net helped Russia with all the gas they have bought


I would say that it's a net loss in the long term with all the gas they stopped buying.


Germany helped build up russia with money and technology which gave putin legitimacy


Because they thought(incorrectly) that we can "tame" russian threat by having a really good economic relationship with them. Turns out, they don't care, Putin will raze his entire country to the ground and kill hundreds of thousands of his men just to say he tried to bring the Soviet Union back.


This is incorrect. EU still buys Russian gas, its just re-routed through friendlier (than Russia) countries like India or Azerbaijan, and it costs a lot more than it used to because of logistics and transit costs.


What is incorrect? EU buys a lot less russian gas than it used to - that is an undeniable fact. And how exactly is russian gas re-routed through India to EU? Have you looked at a map lately? There is nothing in any other country that can match the output that was being piped directly to the EU from Russia. The pipelines to India and Azerbaijan are a tiny fractions of what was going to EU even when running at 100% capacity.


And therein is the problem.

Trump's a bully, but he's a bully that exists because the lowest common denominator keeps getting lower.

Russia wouldn't have thought it had the leverage to invade Ukraine if not for their control over European petroleum supplies, leverage the Europeans gave them of their own free will.

Markets do not solve everything. Trump is the ultimate expression of this so far, but he is not the first.



The energy policy of most European countries was clearly mismanaged. Depending on the country, bad decisions have been taken either due to incompetence, bribery, political pressure, and psyops.

Psyops doesn’t just work to incite… an equally powerful goal is to normalise. Like normalise how a country that has unlimited sun and wind elected to use oil and gas from Russia.

A different nuclear energy policy would have changed Europe’s fate. It will do so again…



> The energy policy of most European countries was clearly mismanaged

Still is. That Germany continues to leave their nuclear fleet fallow in the face of this is absolute insanity.



Germany’s energy policy has unfortunately shaped the EU one to the catastrophic level it is now.

I don’t know enough about local politics to categorise the reason why though. But a lot of the damage is now irrevocable, and residual for millennia.



I mean I'm real content to blame the environmentalist movement on this, which very obviously bifurcates into "pragmatists" and "anti-nuclear". The anti-nuclear people will pay lipservice to everything else, but it's abundantly clear that their top priority at all junctions was eliminating nuclear power regardless of consequences and they'd believe convenient lies to that goal ("the natural gas is just temporary. We'll definitely stop using Nordstream voluntarily...")


Nah the anti-nuclear power people are not environmentalists. Those people would know that nuclear waste is handled far better than any other waste from power production. Instead the anti-nuclear power people are the immense number of people who are scared to have nuclear power plants anywhere near them. It doesn't matter how safe the plants actually are, people think they are crazy dangerous compared to other ways that power is generated.


Going back on shutting down nuclear would cost more money and energy than building out sustainable energy - just see how well UKs or Frances most recent nuclear experiments went - tens of billions over budget and nothing to show for it after a decade


@marvin Do you want to leave next to a nuclear power plant when you know that Russian bombs or ISIS or other enemies could blow it? I don't.


This isn't a credible reason to wed yourself to Russian gas and decommission the plants Germany already had running. Despite three years of bombing the nuclear plants in Ukraine have not been (properly) hit.

Terrorist attacks on nuclear power stations can be dealt with via the standard security services.

German aversion to a functional army and nuclear energy has had consequences for the country and the EU.



I think you can give that honour to India.


Why is parity the goal? The US is on a different continent, and also (theoretically) defending US allies in the Pacific, and middle east.

It's Europe's backyard. Europe should be contributing 5x what the US contributes. They can afford it. It's the richest (per-capita) continent on earth. They outproduce Russia 5-10x.

I have been a strong supporter of US support to Ukraine and I think this meeting was gross and unbecoming, but Europeans need to wake up and understand that this is a problem they can, and have to, solve, not just as a supporting player to the US.

"We did as much as the US" doesn't matter. Give enough support to solve the problem. You have the economy and can, if you make even minor commitment — 5% of GDP would vastly outproduce Russia, for a small cost to living standards. The alternative is giving up.



This debate is probably a communication strategy to fuel anger in the american public while distracting / confusing other partners. From the time I could watch TV I always saw USA spend intensely on military and foreign policy. I'm trying to find when the reversal occured, but it's probably during the previous campaign, as a trick to blame biden.


I have said this many times. I feel, as an American, many people are tired. WE have no insight into the vast sums of money that are being spent by the DOD and where it is going. I see debt climbing and I have to ask myself, do I want my country to spend money on other countries or maybe focus on cleaning up our own house first? I would rather America focus on putting its own house in order, wasted spending, corruption, cartels, China buying up land, and the erosion of our education system.

Many of us no longer feel the juice is worth the squeeze in supporting Europe. We have done enough over the last 100 years. Yes we have benefit some from their troubles, which they caused, but that doesn't mean we have to continue to support them.



One thing to note is that you are looking at this as a government cost, whereas it’s seen as a massive mechanism of hard and soft power, with immense economic and political benefits for the US, including being able to do whatever it wants wherever it wants. A significant amount of the wealth of the US depends on that soft/hard power dynamic. Break one, break the whole. But I agree with you. The US spends too much on military and intelligence budgets and not enough to and for its citizens. And this has led to the misery of so many Americans. The land of the plenty has not much to give to the ones that need it most.

And on the other hand, the immense asymmetry of (non-nuclear) military power between the US and the rest of the world should ring alarm bells across every nation right now. Especially so in the EU, UK and Canada.

Why is this massive military budget and complex supported by sacrificing public services, healthcare, education, and social services, and through higher taxation of the relatively poorest? And why is it not supported through taxation of corporations and the richest of the super-rich?

And for me, the most important reason for why I found today so upsetting:

What is true dishonour if not to betray a friend in need?



Well I'd argue that there was no such thing as 'friend' in the mind of people hosting that event. It was clearly abusive mobster negotiation tactics, immoral power play and profit extraction.


Then you're agreeing with the GP that this is dishonour.


One party greated the other cordially in a suit. One showed up to meet the President of the United States in leisure attire! One had made an agreement with Secretary of State and then reneged on it publicly. This same individual then decided to threaten the President of the United Sates. Who exactly was acting like a mobster?

There is nothing immoral about getting paid for services or products. If you don't like it go somewhere else. Why is it that everyone expects hand outs from America but never once ask what can they do for America? It is Ukraine who is exploiting the American people for free arms. Finally an America stood up to their ridiculous behavior, the petty dictator was kicked out of the White House.



an american .. all the people that write good english gone to were russia ends?


>What is true dishonour if not to betray a friend in need?

Great Powers don't have friends. Nor do they have enemies. They only have eternal Interests. (paraphrasing a quote often attributed to Henry Kissinger)

As I was looking for a more exact source for this quote, I stumbled upon this interesting piece in Time Magazine....from 1955:

https://time.com/archive/6798908/no-friends-no-enemies-just-... IT is high time the United States quit throwing money and materials around the world like a drunken sailor and settled on a foreign policy clearly consonant with our national interests first and foremost. We pile deficit on deficit until we threaten ourselves with bankruptcy.



So you have some good points about soft power. Yet at this time as I look at Americas GDP Europe is playing less and less of a factor in it. So as I said the juice may no longer be worth the squeeze. Also what is the point of soft power in Europe when we are being over run by immigrants? America needs to look to itself first. We can't be a strong world power for much longer if the issues at the southern border continue. I know no one in the world cares about Americas problems, they tend to ignore them and view us as something to use or get something from. Yet we have not only a right but obligation to look to ourselves first.

Ukraine is not and has never been an friend or ally to America. We were one of many parties to an assurance that we wouldn't level them if they turned in their nukes. We have given them aide in their time of need. There was a deal in place for more aide and the President of Ukraine came in, in athletic gear mind you, and reneged on the agreement and started grandstanding and threatening the US President in the Oval Office! This was a HUGE mistake, he basically said to America I do not respect you and spit in our faces. I know many people do not see it that way around the world but if a world leader comes to ask for aid from the country they are completely dependent upon for their survival and their plan is threats and leisure attire how is that not disrespect?

I mean fair play for being bold and all. Yet that was unwise in the extreme.



You're repeating all their narrative. Zelenskyy wore the same clothes as he did in canada, Sweden, France and I would assume any other country. This is most probably a a bad faith argument developed by Trump's team.


America is not Canada, Sweden, or France. To be compared to them is an insult.


Would you please stop posting flamewar comments? We just asked you this, and you've continued to do it (e.g. here and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43222779). Not cool.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html



I fully understand this sentiment. After all, combined more than $6tn (!) have been spent on the rather ill-advised engagements in Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria. It's unfortunate that the US invested so much in these affairs that there is little capacity or willingness left now when it matters.


So help me understands Europe's reasoning for not keeping its spending commitments to NATO during peace time? We still met ours, still met all our obligations despite ongoing wars.

I agree now things really matter but why should America be on the hook for wartime sacrifices when Europe couldn't be bothered to do the easy part in peace time? No one ever answers this simple question. They all just down vote me which is fine but if there is a rebuttal to this let me know.



From my perspective most of Europe believed in the "end of history", i.e. a world where armed conflicts would no longer be relevant. They thought local wars were only instigated by "medieval barbarians" in remote geographic locations or by neocons and the military-industrial complex for the hope of increasing US influence (and profit). Many Europeans associated NATO with wars they did not fully support and were not at all convinced that the money there was well spent. One could argue that Europeans indeed overlooked the growing threat of another imperialist force and its military-industrial complex, Russia, and that at least after the invasion of Crimea in 2014 should have started taking NATO as their life insurance policy more seriously.


You got my upvote! If there's one good thing that comes out of Trump's position on Ukraine, it's Europe stepping up its own security and strength. This will be good for Europe and America in long run.

I watched the Trump Zelensky show today. I dunno about you, but I detected a possible calculated confrontation. I don't think Vance is a good actor. He took it to 11 too quickly.

These days the media demands wartime strategy be played out in real time detail. How is that beneficial for actual strategy? To counter this, Trump may be leaning into the media circus by playing some sort of ambiguous good cop bad cop card. Smacking Zalensky while buttering Putin's muffins and arguing against world leaders, might be what's needed to penetrate Putin's emotional bubble. A kind of Trumpian trojan horse. Fascinating stuff. I know many here wouldn't give Trump such tactical credit, but if he were short on tactics he wouldn't have won two presidential elections.



That's funny, I thought Zelensky was the one who came in calculating. He had already agreed to the "deal", but (a) insisted on not signing it remotely, but instead flying all the way to the US; (b) waited until he was on camera with Bush and Vance; (c) changed his tack and tried to get Trump and Vance to agree to more than what had been previously discussed, thus baiting them into confrontation; (d) hopped on a plane within 2 hours, when Trump had stated publicly "all he needs to do is come back and say 'I want peace'"; (e) headed straight to the UK where almost all the EU leaders were already waiting and had a photo op done.

It really looks like a carefully crafted narrative was planned and carried out to intentionally smear the current US administration.



You are in luck! You will get more Chinese Gold Citizens buying up collapsing stock and any savings will be plowed right back into tax cuts. (For those with billions of course, not you.)


What we got, and get, out of supporting Western Europe at the end of WWII was that otherwise, the entire continent would have been run by the Soviet Union. Not just that, we got a valuable trading partner, and our rebuilding put an end to hundreds of years of European wars.

Not that you might care about the moral aspect of it, but we also finished Nazi Germany and prevented that horror from taking over the world.

What we got out of expanding the alliance to Eastern Europe was a further bulwark against Russia, which has always been an expansionist totalitarian empire that enslaves or kills anyone who disagrees with the dictator. It's no different now than it was under the czars.

Europe is basically America's backyard now, and Russia wants it. Giving up your backyard because your violent neighbor threatens you for it, doesn't make you strong, it makes you weak.



> doesn't make you strong, it makes you weak.

Not really sure I care if the neighbors across the water think we look weak just because we don’t want to defend them because they don’t want to be strong.

And bear in mind that doesn’t mean that we are weak…



And the us has called for that and the sabotaged that with policies again and again. The military industrial complex doesn't want a thriving europe at arms. And the Russians supported every longterm self defeating movement. And they won, first in europe, then in the us, finally in this thread .


> And bear in mind that doesn’t mean that we are weak…

Claiming to be strong without any displays of actual strength, both in soft and hard power, is a very typically weak behavior.



Yeah, because any one of those 11 CSGs that scare the living shit out of pretty much everyone who opposes the US are nearby are very weak.


> Not that you might care about the moral aspect of it, but we also finished Nazi Germany and prevented that horror from taking over the world.

There's a lot of research on how the Allies helped move many Nazi war criminals to safe havens in other countries, help the remaining Nazis into positions in government and business in West Germany, used the remaining Nazis as intelligence networks, helped them organize into wild-eyed anti-Communist cells all over the world, and of course absorbed several Nazi scientists into research institutions in the US.

In a moment of madness Churchill put out a plan to hire the Wehrmacht after their defeat to go invade the real enemy, the Soviet Union.



I am aware of the long history we have with Europe and how it came to be. Yet I am in the present and I no longer care what we look like to the rest of the world. I see problems at home and these are far more concerning to me then Russia taking over Europe. China is a much bigger enemy of America's in the Pacific. We should be focusing our defense spending there. Let Europe stand for Europe.

No matter what happens America will be blamed and shamed, we didn't spend enough, we didn't xxxx enough, if only America had done yyyy zzzz wouldn't have happened, and on and on. So I am all for putting Americas interests first.

Also I find your last sentence to be the antithesis of what I am talking about. Why does America look weak? Wouldn't Europe look much weaker??? It feels like gaslighting, like someone will call you names so you need to come and die for us! It gets old.



Regarding the ukraine war I don't remember any tangible criticism regarding the US. That would be way too hypocritical considering Europe aid has been too slow. At least nobody in my circle was asking more of the US. I really think you're being played. Also so far market are down, prices are up. Was it the best administration to deal with problems ?

I understand the parent last sentence differently. Considering America's might, giving in to a mediocre aggressor seems weak. It's not that you have to do it, but it was the previous foreign policy / aura of the USA. Leader of the free world IIRC. Now you're free to change course. But it would be wise to operate smoothly.



This weakens the US against China. Europeans have no stake in a big Pacific conflict and will be much less interested to back US war mongering now. It’s short sighted for us to forego alliances that were helping us build a world order and a trading bloc that isolated China.


Wagner took refugees from Africa and collaborated with south America to run them up to your southern border.


Like I said bigger problems at home. That Southern border is a mess and needs to be addressed. That is America's largest security issue as it is how anyone will get into America. Well that and Canada, but they are less violent thus far then what is coming from the south.


I'm pretty sure America doesn't have to give up its world power just to deal with its southern border. If it does, it's going to be a lot weaker on both.


Define "giving up world power." Because last I checked, being a world power means taking care of your own nation first, ensuring its security, economy, and people are strong. If America can’t even secure its own borders, prevent foreign influence on its soil, or manage its own spending, then what exactly are we protecting?

Prioritizing America isn’t weakness it’s a strength. No empire in history lasted long by neglecting its homeland while overextending abroad.

Ukraine isn’t America’s priority or ally, our borders, economy, and strategic position in the Pacific are. Europe is more than capable of handling its own security, and if they aren’t willing to, that’s on them not us.



America looks weak because it has just lost the cold war. All the effort spent since 1945 to counter authoritarian superpowers have been thrown in the bin. Instead it turned into one itself. It is pathetic.


The cold war ended when the USSR ceased to exist. Russia of today looks much more similar to Europe of the 70's and 80's than it does to the USSR. It also looks weird that the "allies" spend so much money with Russia but worry about them so.


And now its back, original rUSSiaR with the beloved flavor of land empire.


The USSR didn’t "come back"—it collapsed, shattered, and never recovered. What remains is a weakened, demographically dying, economically struggling Russia.

Territory lost by the USSR/Russia since the Cold War began: The entire Soviet Union dissolved—Ukraine, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Belarus, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, and Tajikistan are all gone. The entire Warsaw Pact flipped to NATO—Poland, Hungary, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Romania, Bulgaria, etc. Germany, the biggest Cold War prize, reunited under the West.

Territory lost by the U.S. and its allies? Zero.

Russia isn’t a rising empire—it’s a wounded animal lashing out, terrified of its own irrelevance. They’re afraid, backed into a corner, and desperately trying to hold onto power. They don’t dictate world affairs.

And as for negotiating with Russia? The U.S. has been doing that for 80 years—and it never made us weak before. Why should it now?

America dictates terms not Russia, and certainly not Europe. If Europe wants to keep playing games, let them but America chooses when, where, and how we engage.



Trump's america seems to not dictate, but more recite Russia's psyops.

From their point of view, USA being unable to handle both internal and foreign policies like it used must surely be a signal.

ps: and btw, I don't believe that the border thing is not inflated by this camp to distract the american people.



Pathetic is to have an authoritarian superpower on the same continent as you for 80 years and still opting to rely on a superpower an ocean away to be the primary defender of your interests.

Some of the countries in Europe to take a cue from Finland and not outsource its defense.



sorry, what did Finland do beginning in 1945, until the Soviet Union broke apart?


Sorry, I think my sentence was not very clear there.

Finland always seemed to be very sensible when it came to its country’s security. I realize “Finlandization” may have had a negative context but during that time Finland made sure it was prepared as militarily as possible if its political “non-alignment” approach failed. It didn’t assume anything.

My point was their approach to their security vs outsourcing defense was a more pragmatic approach considering where we have ended up in 2025 and one that other countries in Europe should have probably followed. If and when your “strong” partner moves away from your interests, you still need internal strength. To a degree Europe (save for a few countries) never expected their strong partner to get wishy-washy on their interests.



The KGB played a very, very long game.


there's this 1985 video of yuri bezmenov floating around

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9CJmvBXNTc

apparently they're expert at this



My last sentence was the sum of what I'm saying.

America is powerful because it operates as a global empire. Not by holding land, but by maintaining alliances. Everything you think is wrong at home right now would be infinitely worse if we didn't control global trade, force the rest of the world to buy our debt, and use soft/hard power to shut down every other actor from the Chinese Communist Party to ISIS - over there, not over here.

A lot of people in America, on both left and right, loathe the fact that we are this gargantuan empire. But the reality is, once you're at the top of the food chain, there is no easy exit. If America stopped being the world's only superpower, it would become a third world country immediately. You point out that America will get blamed for X,Y and Z. Of course. It already does. The only reason you don't experience the immediate consequences of that is that America (until today) held a lot of global sway. You can't just opt out of your alliances and still expect to have the preferential treatment you have, or the power you had.

We live in a republic that functions as a global empire. If we weren't that global empire, we would be Argentina or Brazil. You want to give up generations of investment in American supremacy for... what, exactly? Problems at home will not get better if America withdraws from the world. They will get much worse, because the only thing keeping this country from being a disaster is the fact that it is central to the world order.

And the only people who want it to not be central to the world order, who want to destroy the functions of government and weaken us on the world stage, are the autocrats who find America to be a beacon that they wish their populations didn't have to look at.

America is not perfect and you can be Bernie or Tucker or Trump and argue that we have no business doing it, but it's a lot better for you, me, and the rest of the free world that America is in charge of maintaining order than to have no one in charge of that.

So my statement was not that Europe looks weak, but that Europe is already America's plaything. Only a traitor would hand it over to the enemy.



Fair enough. But doing so 3 years into a war with a now half dead Russia is a different matter. It was the US and UK that took a leadership role in the beginning of the conflict ("for as long as it takes.."). It must be pretty convenient to have a big ocean between yourself and the consequences of your actions.


I follow the writings of Ben Aris, who focuses mostly on analyzing energy and capital markets in Russia.

He writes prolifically about Russia at https://www.intellinews.com/eastern-europe/

(and other places, at a lower URL path)

He believes that Russia's economy is not doing wonderfully, but not nearly as bad as the Western press says it is, and that whoever runs Russia is probably willing to put up with some pain a lot longer than Ukrainians can put up with no power no water no food, etc.

https://twitter.com/search?q=from%3A%40bneeditor%20russia%20...



I dont think pain is the possible problem, total collapse is. Russia does everything to hide any pain and problems. Banks are forced to accept loans from soldiers and military adjacent companies while being prohibited from calling them in. The capital controls. The private sector is mostly gone, there is no local car manufacturing any more. 21% interest rates with an official 10% inflation. The increasing lack of official economic data being released...

Hard to tell, and I am not convinced if even the Kremlin has a good overview. In the end it does not matter that much. If Russia is really that robust then they wont stop attacking and if they are bluffing then Ukraine should not stop defending itself.



Most western countries are indebted way above the normal limit. I'm only a newb, but afaik, the global monetary system was wired this way. And US was said, being the currency reserve of the world, to have no problem with large debt. In reality, what I heard is that US inflation gets passed onto the world through dollar dominance. (not an unusual move for Trump to invert the logic to gain political point painting himself as the savior).

You never considered it was just a story to justify shaking "allies" ? I don't know what the truth is, but it smells like it.

And so far there's no announcement about investing in education or health, it seems quite the opposite, isn't it ?

I sincerely don't understand how there can be any trust invested in Trump and his speeches. So far all he's done is creating meme coins and reviving the ruble.

thanks for your answer nonetheless



It takes time to turn a big ship. Why would I be excited to see more spending into government agencies until I am sure of how they are operating and what they are spending money on. Once things are cleaned up then you can start spending money as needed to get the results you want. It feels everyone is near jerk like, you actions didn't improve everything immediately so they were wrong. The reality of all of this will play out over the next few years.


But cleaning can't be done Musk's way. The whole system is kinda stable because everything is linked together. To start from scratch without anything in the meantime is just suicide. It's like if a scientist what not giving food to an animal for a month to test if really food is needed. Well, he will conclude that food was needed, but now the animal is dead.


If this was really about cleaning up government, or balancing the budget then it wouldn't have started with small potatoes. You would immediately cut the low hanging fruit. Say, oil industry subsidies. That would get you something like 13 billion a year in savings.

All the destruction sown by DOGE (outside of USAID) represents (favorably) 0.2% of the US budget. Including USAID it's closer to 1.3% of the US budget.

At the same time Republicans are proposing reducing revenue by 4500 billion dollars.



Again these things take time. I can see how people don't like the method but I will wait to judge it by the results. Please bear in mind that Clinton fired 377,000 federal workers in the 90's. Things didn't come crashing down.

We need more oversight and less people imho. I am actually hopeful that they will have the ability to push through better software systems to track initiatives and spending. It isn't the number of employees it is where was all the money going, it was/is the lack of insight/transparency which has eroded my confidence in the federal government.

My true wish is they have the guts to pass legislation outlawing campaign contributions. It isn't just parts of the house that need a thorough purging to be honest.



Pol Pot tried that with Year Zero. It turned out poorly.


Counter point Bill Clinton fired 377,000 Federal workers in the 90's and it turned out ok. Well aside from the Glass–Steagall legislation but that was legislation, still hurts though.


Multiple groups agree that Clinton efforts were well planned, reviewed and bipartisan

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2025/02/21/clint...

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/clinton-trump-federal-work...

Dismantling everything in the hope of finding alleged problems is witch-hunt level of political action.



That was done carefully with planning over six years through hiring freezes, retirement offers, and announced layoffs:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2025/02/21/clin...

Not random shotgun immediate firings. Your weather forecasts are about to become less accurate because of some of these firings and planned improvements in them are not going to happen:

https://www.cnn.com/2025/03/01/weather/noaa-weather-forecast...

Go ask a farmer or pilot how much they depend on weather forecasts.



This is chesterson’s fence playing out in real life with the major superpower of the world and it has real consequences for people. It should not be the insane fiasco that’s happening right now with an unelected foreign citizen admitting in a cabinet meeting that they accidentally stopped Ebola vaccine financing. If you seriously think this is going to turn out well after we saw trump’s first term I just don’t have anything to help you.the funniest shit is that all of this upheaval is literally < 1% of the actual budget and it’s going to be touted as billions in savings by musk the grifter in chief. I don’t need time to see that this is a dumpster fire.


How much "wasted spending" do you know about?

What fraction of foreign owned land is Chinese?



That is what we are trying to find out! We have no idea how much wasn't wasted so we are going looking. We can't get clear answers on how many land transactions ultimately go back to the CCP, so we are trying to find out! This is about increasing transparency. We may find out hey it is all amazing and we are super efficient with your money, that would make us happy.


An update on this it looks to be 200,000 acres at the moment. Which is 80,937 hectares or 809 square kilometers.


> I see debt climbing and I have to ask myself, do I want my country to spend money on other countries or maybe focus on cleaning up our own house first? I would rather America focus on putting its own house in order, wasted spending, corruption, cartels, China buying up land, and the erosion of our education system.

Not helping Ukraine won’t solve any of that, though. Regardless of the US policy regarding Europe, I am willing to bet that military spending will keep ballooning now that the broligarchs are in power and fighting to redirect public spending to their pockets. Ultimately, I understand your sentiment, but this course of action will not lead to what you hope. If anything, everything will get worse because the people in power have no interest in fixing the issues you mentioned.



>I am willing to bet that military spending will keep ballooning now that the broligarchs are in power and fighting to redirect public spending to their pockets.

Why would you think that military spending would go up, given the tasks the executive has currently issued, and diplomatic direction indicated vis-a-vis other world military powers:

https://apnews.com/article/trump-pentagon-cuts-8-troops-budg...

https://www.axios.com/2025/02/13/trump-china-russia-military...



Because there is too much money to be made. Thiel et al. stand to win too much to let it pass. It’s like with SpaceX: in theory Musk is all for smaller government, in practice he wants the government to serve him.

Representatives and senators get a lot of political credit for the military-industrial complex, as well.



A great nation can do two things at once. The problem is the unreformable oligarchy turning into a sour gilded age zhe moment the Soviets falteted. Cant have a democracy with what are nobleman at heart at the helm.


One of the things that was highly propagandized was the "deep state" relationship with big oil and the whole conspiracy theories of billionaires influencing policy and pushing for war to get access to oil.

I get that people got into this narrative.

What I don't get is that you're now supporting a new groups of tech billionaires influencing policy to get access to rare earth, to the point of threatening to annex USA allies like Canada, and Greenland, and doing deals with Russia to capitulate Ukraine.

Yet Americans seem to be cozy with this idea, and support it, when in reality it's the same. In fact, it's worse because it's not even a conspiracy theory, it's out in the open.

Imagine if Biden or Obama had the Black Rock folks behind them when they took the presidency, it would drive some folks up the wall. The same folks don't mind having the Twitter Guy, Bezos, Zuckerberg... Can you help me understand why?



Cause when a country switches to tribal warmode, its all about flying elsewhere so the locust can feed again.


The reason the US is the global hegemon of the western world was because they won the cold war against USSR. Being the leading member of NATO largely contributed to that, and ensured US dominance in geopolitics and trade.

With Trump now in office, the US seems to be willingly breaking, or at the very least withdrawing from, the NATO alliance. With that they give up their position as hegemon, and sacrifice their influence on Europe.

To me, it seems like Russia is now winning the cold war, 35 years after it "ended".



If you compare to how things began in Cold War, it’s far from a win for Russia no matter how much it may take from Ukraine.

SU lost, here we feel some ripple or aftershock. US enjoyed years of prosperity, its people lived in much higher living standards for a long time.

What’s a shame for the US is the innovators dilemma that it was not able to improve its system after the pressure of competition was gone, and now inequality brought you Trump II.



Perhaps saying "Russia made the US lose the cold war" would be more accurate than saying "Russia won". From a lost position, Russia managed to make the US resign from the game.


Unfortunately, EU is not an entity with single and unified view on things. In the case of Russian invasion of Ukraine, there is a surprisingly strong opposition to related policies in Brussels amongst the people in quite a few member states. In fact, many support Putin and now his best buddy Trump - with plain stupid belief that Putin/Trump wants peace and Zelensky wants to continue war. In short, EU (+ UK, Norway, maybe Switzerland) is simply not as unified against Putin as it may appear in the Brussels press conferences. Putting more effort (in money, materials, soldiers even) in this conflict will be hard to pill to swallow for large percentage of citizens and by extension politicians. What I see happening in the near future is more money flowing into militaries of the member states, which is a sad necessity by having Putin as neighbor. But I'm skeptical of EU countries becoming much more involved in the Ukraine conflict.


Forget the EU. I don't care about the EU.

Britain, Germany, and France alone have the military production and economy to win the war. Doesn't matter if Hungary or Ireland or whoever back out of the consortium.



> Britain, Germany, and France

These three countries have been a bit unstable politically during the last couple of years. This did not help. At least they are going in the same direction and not shooting each other’s foot.



> war effort

"War effort" implies military aid, in which case the US has supplied nearly double all other countries combined.



Except that since "war effort" is measured in $ the devil is in the details.

It's very simple to claim "we have given the most in military aid, in $" but much harder to look into it.

Then you find out that everything is priced insanely high, bullets and artillery that is identical to European (due to nato standards) can cost dozens of times more.

Then you find out that billions have been spent in private "consultancies" (I guess US military and navies have no clue how to organize logistical transports, even though we're talking about the biggest naval power on the planet).

Then you find out that Ukraine offered to come pick the weapons itself with their own ships to make it faster and save US taxpayers money and US said nope, we got people to feed with those contracts.



This is what people don't get. US military spending IS a huge part of the economy. It's jobs. It's not like all the money goes up in smoke. Some of it does, in the form of munitions, but someone has to make those too and the US pays for them.


it's a corporate welfare programme.


US sent Ukraine 31 Abrams tanks so far. This is for the largest land war in Europe since WW2. Now, can we compare this to the amount of military assistance by the US to USSR during WW2? The US could have helped Ukraine win the war, but chose not to.


Out of 8800 tanks produced.


That's not true. As of 2024-12-31, the US had provided 64bn EUR of military aid to Ukraine, and Europe had provided 62bn. The US had pledged further 66bn and Europe 100bn. Source: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43073733


I have never seen a number similar to that quoted anywhere before. Can you name a source?

The BBC:s most recent rundown[1] has the strictly military support from the US accounting for a bit more than half of the total of the top-ten contributors (of which it is number one, of course).

When comparing dollar values for military equipment with other types of support, we should keep in mind that they are inflated. A lot of the equipment (ammunition, vehicles etc) are old things that were due to be rotated out of the stockpiles anyway. This is true for many (perhaps all) donor countries.

Example: GMLRS rockets have a shelf-life of 10-15 years and their disposal costs at end-of-life is not zero. Sending them off to Ukraine as they approach their best-before date does not incur much real cost on the donor, but the gift can be labeled as "253 gazillion dollars worth of ammunition." The value description is sort of true, as they will be used in their full capacity by Ukraine, but it might even save money for the donor who is the off the hook for disposal and was going to replace them anyway.

[1]https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62002218



This is correct. Proof of this can be found in 37 places on government websites (I actually checked, took me three hours). If you add these up its obvious that the EU spent a lot more that the USA.

If you consider what EU countries pay besides arms and aid, for example on housing the millions of refugees from Ulraine or buying stockpiles of arms to be used on behalf of Ukraine in the future the numbers are much higher, between twice and triple the US budget. Even the sanctions against Russia and their weapon suppliers China, India, North Korea and Iran add to the costs of this Russian conflict. Also consider the EU pledges to rebuild Ukraine should be counted.

Today I estimate 1,234 trillion Euro's, part of which was spent as dollars, some as loans with the estimated 300 million of confiscated Russian bank accounts and assests from Russian oligarchs as collateral.



To suggest the EU/Europe has done anything close to the bare minimum for Ukraine is absurd and Europeans who think otherwise are as delusional on this as the long term usefulness of the actual EU


The EU has donated about the same amount of money (46.3B) as the US (46.6B), however total aid the US has donated 114B while the EU has dontaed 49B.

https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-s...

https://www.ukraineoversight.gov/Funding/



You assume EU united would act strongly in favour of Ukraine. But there's no guarantee of that. There are significant differences in how for example, Poland approaches Ukraine with how Germany does it.

I think, nations with bad historic experience with Russia support Ukraine significantly more.



I think that is generally true. But Poland had an AWFUL experience with the residents of western Ukraine during the 1940s.


https://youtu.be/IwYVKptqH_o?si=wkGH8i_gY-_AfaK2&t=54

(Edit, this is from late 90s and the NATO action in Yugoslavia)

I thought this was an interesting take. And it's sad that the US has a man giving away our leadership. The world is in a dangerous place.



I agree, but they have still sent more aid than the US


Don't forget that Russia has been doing this for a long time. Chechnya, Georgia. Always the civilian population was brutely oppressed and murdered. He's always got some former USSR republic to exterminate. If anything it would be weird if he hadn't picked on the next one. The only difference is that Ukraine is a little bit closer to Europe than the others.

I'm not saying this means we shouldn't defend Ukraine. We should. But I am saying the outrage from the international community is a little hypocritical considering what Putin has been doing for decades. It's either because it's a little closer to our borders (and thus Europe is more worried about itself) or because they have valuable resources that our politicians suddenly care. I find that very sad. We should have cared before. Then we'd have saved many lives and this wouldn't have happened.

It's really got a very strong smell of "let's bring freedom to the middle east! Of course only where they've got lots of oil for us".



But it has always been like this, and people from the global south and former USSR republics have always recognized this. It's only now starting to become apparent to naive and propagandized Americans/Westerners.


EU was plenty united when US cried NATO article 5.


EU is united until it comes time to pay the bill


Within the EU, it's mostly Germany's fault because their political leadership is too chickenshit to remove the debt limit and the ban on expeditionary forces from their constitution. 30 years ago, West+East Germany had world class armed forces, yet the current German military posture is ridiculous.

The US should keep its commitments, but there is no reason Germany cannot step up to the plate - especially given that France has a similar defense budget as Germany yet has an outsized impact on global security.

German political leadership needs to either stop blocking France+UK and defer to their security policy or build it's own domestic capacity.



Yes me too. Europe needs to get its act together and do _more_ but let’s also not adopt Trump’s descriptions of what has been given.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_aid_to_Ukra...



The dark humor in me really wants Russia to be colored dark blue in that map.


They're running the same playbook they did with Yugoslavia. Sit around and do nothing until the US takes control. Not going to work out this time with the felon operating in chaos monkey mode.


Exactly what I said to alephnerd above.


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this is not true. There was Svoboda and Azov, and very little else.


Here's what Nazism means for Putin: anything and everything done to defend against Russian aggression.


That's blatant Russian propaganda.


I get my information from actual european reports, which is pretty far from russian propaganda. It's a little tedious to be told every time this is the case, and no amount of proof (signed and sourced from websites belonging to EU institutions no less) will change people's minds. That is what blatant propaganda looks like. Folks cannot contend with facts anymore in their rabid need to seem against whatever the demon of the month is. Sometimes in a conflict everyone is just garbage and that's okay.


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Europe has a military.

Combined, the second military power in the world if you look at military budget.

It is as people totally forgot about it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_highe...



If Europe's military were so strong, why does the US need any involvement?

There's a reason even Zelensky described the EU militaries as weak, and believes a European army to be necessary.

Don't confuse spending with strength either: The UK, on paper, spends 2.3% of GDP on the military. That sounds good - until you realize they have only 136,000 personnel total. That's not going to defend the UK from anything - it can't even defend Ukraine for a year.



> why does the US need any involvement?

You are asking the wrong question (or at least, a wrong question). It's not "why does the US need any involvement", it's "Why has the US insisted on involvement for so long?" (e.g. during the 1980s when widespread sentiment in Europe was for the US to close its military bases, the US insisted on remaining).

The UK does not rely 136k people to defend itself from military risk. It relies on its nuclear arsenal, which while not as large as those of the USA or Russia, it quite the deterrent all by itself.



> The UK does not rely 136k people to defend itself from military risk. It relies on its nuclear arsenal, which while not as large as those of the USA or Russia, it quite the deterrent all by itself.

It's a deterrent from invading the British Isles, which would require a navy that only the US has, anyways.

It's not a deterrent from challenging the world order. The US nuclear arsenal is the only one in the West that, if it were deployed, would end human society on a global scale.

Russia has designed its nuclear forces and defense infrastructure around a war with the United States, a country with a much, much larger nuclear arsenal than the UK or France. There's a possibility that if Russia decided to use its tactical nuclear weapons in Ukraine (which it has threatened before), and the UK or France responded in kind with strategic nuclear weapons, that enough of Russian nuclear forces could survive to completely wipe out those two nations while also having weapons in reserve.

That's why the US stayed.



US forces on European land are not a deterrent to the scenario you're describing.


Of course they are. Who do you think would deliver the weapons I'm talking about?


Its "nuclear arsenal" consists of a single missile boat on patrol with about a dozen or so ICBMs (which could certainly mess with major Russian cities. But if a Russian fast-attack sub (of which they have quite a few) gets it, bye-bye "nuclear arsenal".


> Since 1998, when the UK decommissioned its tactical WE.177 bombs, the Trident has been the only operational nuclear weapons system in British service. The delivery system consists of four Vanguard-class submarines based at HMNB Clyde in Scotland. Each submarine is armed with up to sixteen Trident II missiles, each carrying warheads in up to eight multiple independently targetable re-entry vehicles (MIRVs). With at least one submarine always on patrol, the Vanguards perform a strategic deterrence role and also have a sub-strategic capability.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapons_of_the_United_...



Yeah, it's the reverse of what's often pushed in the media. There have even been initiatives for autonomous EU security projects, with the US (I think even Trump at some point, despite what he says now about NATO) being against anything that would undermine NATO.


It is not a lot, but I reckon once Russia has got through Ukraine, Slovakia, Poland, Czechia, Germany, and France they would be pretty softened up.


Okay, best case scenario then if Ukraine falls.

Slovakia military: 25,000 people.

Polish military: 300,000 people.

Czechia military: 30,000 people.

German military: 183,000 people.

French military: 270,000 people.

Basically, don't piss off Poland, you'll need to defeat about 500,000 soldiers, though do you really need to march on to France if you win against Germany? Even if you did, that's about 1/3 the US military, and nowhere near as well armed, or well trained, or well psychologically prepared. If you're Russia, about 1 million soldiers should do the trick; and that's not hard when you don't have moral qualms and 21 million military age men to throw at the problem; and (edit) possibly an additional few million from North Korea for purchase.

As for nuclear weapons; Russia can probably bet that using a nuclear weapon from inside France, or inside the UK, as a first strike, would be too controversial to even do. The government would probably be sued by human rights lawyers from inside itself for even trying; convinced that it's better to take the loss while remaining on the moral high ground. What's even the point, when NATO predicts they have less than 5% of the defenses required for the inevitable retaliation? https://www.ft.com/content/5953405f-d91a-4598-8b6b-6345452ca...

> (edit to reply): Russia isn't winning against Ukraine.

Yet.



"Don't piss off Poland?!" There won't be a large scale war against the Eastern EU started by Russia that does not involve Poland. The EU has stronger mutual defense clause than NATO article 5+6 (of course, it doesn't have anything close to the military might of the combined NATO countries). Once there is an all out war, Finland would mobilize its army, threatening Russia's northern flank. The Baltic would be closed. The black sea would be closed. All out war would be terrible, but the deterrence is still too strong in my opinion, as the price would be too high.

The problem / question is what would the EU (or NATO) do, if Russia starts a small scale hybrid war against Estonia or Latvia. Creating a small "local" insurgency, that takes over a majority Russian speaking town on the border. If the military alliances do not react united in such a case they are done.



I think the critical question is what would the allies do (especially the ones with nuclear weapons) if Russia actually used one. There's a lot of treaties, words spoken and on paper but nobody really knows how people would react to the idea of partaking in a nuclear war.

If they dropped a nuke on e.g. Lithuania would the French do the same knowing that retaliation would come that could wipe out most of their people and country off the map? Would any country do that for someone else?



> Even if you did, that's about 1/3 the US military, and nowhere near as well armed, or well trained, or well psychologically prepared.

Nowhere near as well armed as the US. But I would argue perfectly well trained. But I laugh at your assertion that the French military is not as psychologically prepared for war.



Russia isn't winning against Ukraine.


To be fair, Ukraine is by far the most combat ready military in the Europe right now.


The population of Russia was widely disputed even before the war(With most estimates placing it at below 100M), and now it's basically a guessing game.


"that's not hard when you don't have moral qualms and 21 million military age men to throw at the problem"

But do you really have them?

Putin seems really hesitant to start a new round of mobilization and refills his army with volunteers. Some of which are voluntolds, but the regime seems to be afraid of the Moscow/St.Petersburg street, so to say.

His grip on the Russian nation, especially after 3 years of endless bloody slog with almost nothing gained, does not seem to reach into the "give millions of recruits weapons and they will use them exactly as told and there is no risk that they could rebel" territory.



Provided you even have the weapons and donekys to outfit them in the first place.


> That sounds good - until you realize they have only 136,000 personnel total.

The UK wound down personnel when they got out of the Afghanistan quagmire

In peace time effective militaries equip and train officer corps

Large numbers of soldiers is a hinderence to a professional peace time army



> If Europe's military were so strong, why does the US need any involvement?

Because Putin is all-in, willing to sacrife the lives of big parts of his population for this purpose. And this makes him a formidable enemy. Does it have to be more complicated than that?

If that is the first question you ask when someone needs help, I guess you will not have that many friends.



And it all amounts to a bag of beans. If it's so impressive they can support Ukraine and render irrelevant any contribution that the US might make? One wonders why Zelensky is in the US pleading for US help?


In the US he needs to convince one administration (and realistically, one guy). The EU is 27 governments, each one with way smaller budgets than the US.

Anyway, you might have missed it, but Zelensky is also regularly asking for help in Paris, Brussels, London, and Berlin.



I’d recommend watching Perun or Michael Koffman’s videos on European militaries.

The TLDR is they’re either set up for low intensity expeditionary warfare (Britain/ France) or the defence of their own territory (everyone else).

None have the capacity to send 500k soldiers to trench warfare in the Donbas or even operate in non-US led coalitions to the same purpose.



Neither did Ukraine, and here they are.

But Europe is not at war. It is Ukraine that is. But they need help with equipment, and balancing their budget. This is what they are asking for, nothing else.

Much fewer than 500k soldiers are needed for training Ukrainians.



Europe certainly has the means to support Ukraine financially, if the political will is there.

But it’s incapable of providing alternatives to Starlink, Patriot or ATACMs. Especially not at the scale required to make a difference in Ukraine. The withdrawal of these systems would be disastrous for Ukraine.



Especially if the US opens Starlink for Russia but closes it for Ukraine.

ATAMCs could be somewhat mitigated with heavily increased medium range drone production.

The game of shooting down everything Russia sends was always a losing game. At some point you have to start addressing the source of the attacks - i.e. strike hard at the Russian infrastructure.



Europe produces alternatives to Patriot (Aster). And ATACMS are not crucial in any way, these days it is Ukrainian produced long range drones that do the most damage behind the lines.

Starlink is where it would hurt though.



Ukraine cannot win without manpower from either the EU or the US. That's the reality on the ground. No amount of equipment/weapons (conventional) is going to change that.


I wouldn’t be so sure, Russia is already doing so bad they need to deploy North Korean troops, motocross bikes and even donkeys and camels.


According to the Austrian military, there’s currently about 800k Ukrainian soldiers up against 700k Russian soldiers.

Because a substantial number of Ukrainian soldiers need to be present across the Belorussian border and elsewhere in the country, the Russians have a meaningful manpower advantage on the frontlines.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IDRjughhXMg



Remember Ukraine doesn't need to take Moscow to win. Russia is burning resources hard to keep the initiative and achieve Putin's war goals. All Ukraine needs to do is continue to bleed the Russian army and wait until Russia has a hard economic crunch.


Hang on. The EU doesn't pretend to protect it's members militarily. However it's members can muster far more military force than Ukraine had. Modern tanks, modern aircraft, modern ships, modern submarines, modern artillery, more professional soldiers. NATO without the US is still a formidable force.


It does as part of the Lisbon Treaty, and the obligation is binding.

More here: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/EN/legal-content/glossary/mutual-d...

And I would expect the call to be answered (with the exception of the already-compromised countries).



The core problem with the EU is that the EU was never a nation. We saw this with Grexit 10 years ago. There was a common currency with no common fiscal policy. A military is yet another thing that the EU does not have because the EU is not a nation. Making the EU a nation (the way the US is) seems to be a project of very few people in Europe. They like their nations the way they are.


Russia is basically calling the West's bluff that they won't use nukes to enforce their ideology and Russia won. Everyone wants to talk big until it comes time to actually enforce words.


I don't think the West ever threatened a nuclear response to Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

Russia, however, repeatedly threatened a nuclear response to the West's military assistance to Ukraine. Those were the bluffs that got called.



> I don't think the West ever threatened a nuclear response to Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

I think so, too, but I also think it’s likely that, through silent diplomacy, there was a clear message “if you nuke the Ukraine, there will be a response in kind”.

Without the USA, it’s hard to keep that message, though. Neither England nor France can respond in kind to a tactical nuclear weapon, as they don’t have any.





^ people downvoting your comment are wrong; it's completely true. The nation-state is a martial construct; the difference between it and its neighbors is a line of demarcation upheld by an external-facing military, and its own legitimacy, economy, and system of laws and conflict resolution is enforced on the populace via an internal-facing "military" (police force).

(Edit: when I wrote this the parent comment was light grey, but now it's back to black. Perhaps it's a controversial comment.)



A tale as old as man, might makes right. What good are rules if you don't have the power to enforce them?


I think it's more complicated than that, no? Ironic too, that when you look at the things this site's moderator permits to be discussed, it's a hot reaction to a television performance. Not one person here is like, citing an expert source, or discussing the history, or talking about forecasts based on something interesting or new. It's all bloviating.


and law (or justice), international or otherwise, doesn't really exist without money (or collateral)

what a web



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So what is your actual preference? That Russia simply be allowed to invade and take over Ukraine "because Ukraine was pretty damn corrupt anyway" ? What does that accomplish?


The point isn't to pick the "best democracy" as if it were a beauty pageant. It was to oppose unilateral military invasion as an instrument of national policy, which is bad regardless of the form of government of the victim.

Ukraine might have been corrupt, but it was a peaceful neighbor and evolving in the right directions. Russia is (literally) throwing bombs around, cutting internet cables, and generally being a terrorist asshole. And at some point, yes, an emboldened Putin will decide to invade a "good democracy". It's happened before.



Haha yeah I recently learned this too.


A democracy has been invaded? I thought it was just Ukraine.


>I wish the EU was more ... united.

it's not Europe United, it's Europe Unionized.



Europe United would be an awesome football team.


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Love all this things but threw up in my mouth a little at the idea.


Sorry, was ChatGPT 4.5 :/


The EU was united, namely in not bothering to help Ukraine. The US decided to want to help Ukraine and send weapons and set the tone and (slow) pace of the weapons that they sent. Only for them to pull the rug away later anyway. This is really terrible leadership, leaders who don't care about the results that they cause are poison. You can argue all day that it's sad and terrible that the EU wouldn't have helped at all. But under Germany's leadership at least this farce wouldn't have played out. You can argue then that it might cause problems later because Russia would be emboldened by a quick win in Ukraine. Fine but this is better now?


The US signed the treaty promising defence support to Ukraine in exchange for Ukraine handing over their nukes.

Where is that now?



That's an interesting take on a recent history that I did not live through.


Think a lot of people here are missing the forest for the trees. We are witnessing the collapse of the unipolar world order that has brought relative freedom and prosperity to most of the world for the last three and a half decades.

I don’t know what comes next. No one does. But Europe needs a deep-rethink of a lot more than just defense if it wants to have any say in what the next world order is going to look like. Otherwise, we’re looking at four decades of less peace and less prosperity.



On the contrary, I think pretty much everyone is aware of it but doesn’t want to think about it.


Here in Sweden, following news of “peace talks” where both Ukraine and Europe were sidelined, the prime minister referenced a “new Yalta” as a troubling scenario, especially for small nations like ours.

Whether intentionally or not, the USA is relinquishing its role as global hegemon, and at least the baltics and nordics are contemplating the ramifications.



As a Canadian to a Svenskar. Your last sentence makes me wonder what we're really angry at the Americans for. Most folks in my country have pissed on Americans for as long as I can remember for thinking they are the world police and "keeping world order". Well uhm, turns out they were and now we're annoyed they don't want to do it anymore? It's interesting, feels like to a degree some folks are pissed off about America stopping the very thing they wanted them to stop? Interesting times.


There is more than one way to stop being the leading economic and military stabilizing force in the world. The "table flip" doctrine is not generally considered to be among the top candidates for "responsible and stable" transfer of power.


We are not angry at the US for defending the democratic world order. We are angry at the US for things like Gitmo, withdrawing from the Rome statute, supporting an alleged genocide in Gaza etc.

What they are doing now is saying might makes right, marking and end of the reign of the liberal democracy.



No dispute there, I think I was wondering aloud if there is a bit of cake and eat it too, going on? And if so, to what degree? I think it's hard to have that perspective well from my vantage point hence the question/pondering.


I had not heard of any real level of anger toward the USA from the average Canadian (the exception being as a response to the now-delayed 25% tariffs). Same applies here. Your average Swede is not angry at the USA for what it’s doing right now. The closest sentiment that’s broken through the mainstream is maybe “unease.”

I wonder if the “have your cake and eat it too” dissonant thinking you’re hitting on is actually maybe easier found in the USA, and sort of on the other side of the spectrum. Plenty of folks voted explicitly for Trump because of his inward-focused, isolationist agenda. What they don’t realize is the extent to which the prosperity that they’ve seen up this point was dependent upon the rules-based order that their chosen leader is actively dismantling.



You're mixing things up.

People have been critical of the US when their admin lied about weapons of mass destruction, did massive amounts of drone strikes on civilians and put people in a concentration camp. "World police" is just a polemic description of that, it's not the content of the criticism.

Now there's country that traded nuclear weapons for protection by the US that is being invaded by a fascist dictator. Meanwhile the US admin is gaslighting everyone and lying about these basic facts and tried to humiliate and personally attack their president in public.



>Now there's country that traded nuclear weapons for protection by the US that is being invaded by a fascist dictator.

Are you talking about the Budapest Memorandum? According to Wikipedia, it says

>Seek immediate Security Council action to provide assistance to the signatory if they "should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used".

So AIUI, that's a guarantee that the US will defend Ukraine if Ukraine gets attacked by Russia with nukes. It's not a guarantee that the US will defend Ukraine if Ukraine gets attacked by Russia with non-nukes. So I don't think the US has violated the agreement. Russia violated the agreement by attacking Ukraine (Russia was a signatory, and the treaty also says the parties won't attack each other with any type of weapon).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum



Question about Sweden: the US influenced your decision to abandon nuclear proliferation about two generations ago. A major factor in wider strategic weapons today is whether Elon Musk would fund you or your adversaries’ satellite, targeting, etc. Is that what a “new Yalta” looks like?


Never heard of any of that.

In this context, “new Yalta” is more in reference to the carving up of “spheres of influence” by the big players, without the little players (the ones being carved up) having a seat at the table.



Yalta is being covered in two different ways:

The right in ascendancy treats Yalta like a movement by the Roosevelt left to give Stalin concessions in a New World Order. That’s the phrase they want promoted. In particular, the UN and adjacent developments stem from a small number of great men. So, the right is happy about a new Yalta between Musk, Trump, and Putin.

Or is it Putin, Trump and Xi? That’s how I see it: Trump has hinted that the Panama Canal and Greenland are for sale. So the left way of looking at a New Yalta reflect multipolar colonial ambitions.



I agree, however the unipolar world ceased to exist a while ago. My take on what we are witnessing is that the US finally acknowledges that what has worked in the unipolar world won’t work in the one we have.


What does this even mean? The world was working just fine before a nutjob with an axe to grind with the west decided to invade its democratic neighbor.


The world was not "working just fine". It _appeared_ to be "working just fine" but it isn't.

Take a look at U.S. shipbuilding capacity, U.S. military equipment maintenance, and the defense industrial base that is maintaining the _appearance_ of the powerful status quo. This isn't unique to the U.S., the same is happening in Russia.

Turns out it costs a _lot_ of money to keep this charade up for everyone.



> What does this even mean?

For a short period after the collapse of the USSR, the world used to have only one superpower (which was the US), but it's not the situation anymore.

> The world was working just fine

I guess you missed the rise of Chinese GDP from 3% to 20% of global GDP, their military buildup, and their advances on the neighbors and the sea.



> that has brought relative freedom and prosperity to most of the world for the last three and a half decades.

What an incredible take.

I cannot possibly think of a US intervention that went well for the receiving end.



> I cannot possibly think of a US intervention that went well for the receiving end.

Germany, Japan and the post WW2 order in question are probably the best candidates.



USA did not intervent into 2014 Crimea annexation and here we are.

And don't forget Ukraine gave up nukes for security assurances from USA, UK and rusia.

As we can see now, it was a mistake. Declaration means little



Off the top of my head apartheid in South Africa, ethnic cleansing of Albanians and genocide in Serbia, WWII... maybe indirectly, end of oppressive horrible USSR where I was born




Not sure if you're aware of WWII, but I can give you some sources to read up if you like.


> last three and a half decades.

That is laughably tiny in the grand scheme of things.



What is your point, exactly? It is a huge chunk of time in human scale.


With Russia and China reaching out to each other after many decades of nearly no contact and Trump reaching out to Russia after about a decade, it might as well be a sign of the very opposite.

This might genuinely be the birth of a true unipolar world order.

No idea if that's good or bad...



That is what current US administration hope, but it is a bluff from the russia at least.

They view US as weak now, and will not stop until it is collapses on itself.



With who in control? A Russia, China and US alliance? This seems very unlikely to me. All signs indicate we're moving to a multipolar world as far as I can tell.

China owns an increasing majority of global GDP and Trump seems to be either taking a path of peace, populism and or stupidity by pulling America out of its global alliances.



That’s one possibility; a different one is that Trump considers China as the real contender for the US in the 21st century, and wants to pivot the US attention there (and out of Europe.)


How does divorcing Europe make the US stronger against China?


I'm not a military strategist but if one believes that the real power competition in this century is going to be played between the US and China, it would make sense to concentrate on that direction. And if so, Europe becomes a distraction.


What if this drives the eu into the hands of China? How does that help the US versus china?


I don't think this is anywhere remotely likely.

The US performs a two-fold security function in Europe: first, it protects Europe from extra-European threats. Second, it protects Europe from intra-European threats. If however the US exits Europe, both kinds of threats become a reality overnight. When you think of what Europe is going to do if faced with any of these situations, it becomes very clear that China has absolutely nothing to offer on either front.



Ideally there would be a 20 year plan to drawdown in Europe and a replacement security architecture. I don't think there's currently any strategic vision, not that Biden had one either.


Agreed. Biden however saw Europe as allies; Trump sees them as "free-riders".


The idea that Trump’s brain is capable of producing original, substantive thoughts resembling long-term geopolitical strategies based in reality is adorable.


It's not necessarily his idea.


That's not a good-faith argument, sorry. Please be intellectually honest by attacking the strongest version of Trump you can imagine, not the weakest, brain-dead, reality-detached version of him that's easier for you to attack.


US policy is now one of forcing the world into a zero sum game and it is a shame because the world isn't zero sum. This means the world will loose the gains from friendship and cooperation that increase the overall outcome for everyone. It is like living in a city where crime is expected so everyone puts up iron bars on their windows and the parks are all locked-down nightmares. When there is trust and cooperation you can have nice things like open parks and friendly establishments but when trust and cooperation go away you get bars on windows. This is a shame. I am ashamed of the US. I am ashamed that we are so shortsighted and scared that we have to play the bully and force a minmax solution when things could be so much better for everyone.


> It is like living in a city where crime is expected so everyone puts up iron bars on their windows and the parks are all locked-down nightmares.

That's life in Brazilian big cities.

Brazil has been very violent for a long time because the government enforces a zero-sum game against the population. The poor half of the population is overwhelmingly colored people and the richer white half would rather burn it all down than share it better. Brazil is one of the most unequal societies on the planet.

If we go that direction globally, security will erode everywhere.

Trust me, we don't want that. You don't want every metropolis to become like a big Brazilian city.

Go find some Brazilian media website and read the news. It's pretty grim. It's what society is like with persistent high inequality, a forced zero-sum game to preserve status quo and the resulting general insecurity.



As someone who’s lived in Latin America this is something I try to point out to people in the US every chance I get. If you have hundreds of millions you can post up in some remote mansion and get things delivered but even then your staff might steal things, your kids are targets, etc. And for everyone else, even the 1%, it’s not going to be a fun life. I’d much rather pay some more taxes and know that everyone has a safety net and UBI so that a much smaller fraction (never zero) are going to be so desperate, drug dependent, etc to commit crimes, especially the harder core ones. If you’re in the top 1% and everyone else is poor and desperate you are going to lack connection, community and safety. That's not good. We are all happier in a more equal society.


> We are all happier in a more equal society.

Fully agree. I've seen this to be the case



Oh, are you talking about Ecuador? Or maybe it's most of latam at this point.

I am living now in Portugal (has its own defects, won't hide it) after 10 years in Ecuador. Here, people park their cars in the street and expect them to be there next day. That would be crazy talk in Ecuador.



And then in Estonia you can drop your wallet or phone, and someone will take it to the police, and you get it all back without even a cent missing. We have robots on the streets, we can leave things like bicycles outside, every store is 80% self checkout with no security guards to speak of.

I lived in Buenos Aires for a year and it made me realize how good I had it. The contrast is so massive that it might as well be two different planets.



Portugal has its issues and it has some bad places, but overall is the most peaceful place I ever live. I wish one day I could go back and live there, but by the look of it it has become expensive to retire there.


Well Ecuador is special even when compared to its neighbour, Peru. The difference at the border is stark.


Being honest, this is 100% in big cities, but in the countryside it doesn't hold. A lot of cities between 100k-300k are pretty safe to live, people with gates leaves them open, even leave their cars entire open while getting a beer inside the house (all unlocked).


> this is 100% in big cities

Comparing Brazil with Mexico with Madrid with Tokyo and coming to the conclusion that "is all the same" seems farfetched.

Policies that see "the poor" as the problem instead "poverty" create violent dystopian cities. Good policy works and make big cities great places to live. Reducing inequality, giving good safety nets to citizens, treating drug addiction as a disease, etc. make a difference. Not 100% of big cities are the same.



I think they meant big cities in Brazil vs the countryside in Brazil.

Not big cities across the world.



Yes, I meant in Brazil.

Off-topic: I really need to add more context to my replies without considering the parent comment, it's not the first time that caused confusion.



It works wonders in San Francisco, doesn't it?


I am not American, so I could be wrong, but is San Francisco a good example of a city with low inequality? My understanding is that the opposite is true.


I read the parent comment as being sarcastic.


Neither am I. I just wanted to point out that the policies suggested in the parent comment didn't work out.


Most of the 50 most violent cities in Brazil aren't even the biggest in their State. The top 3 are all between 100 thousand and 150 thousand inhabitants. They all have homicide rates that are 2x to 4x as much as the national average. By comparison, São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro are much, much safer.

https://g1.globo.com/sp/sao-paulo/noticia/2023/07/20/anuario...



Reading down the list, I’m not sure the US is doing much better than Brazil. Mexico is stand out terrible.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_by_homicide_rat...



This list does not have the latest data from Brazilian cities. The Brazilian list I linked has dozens of Brazilian cities with a homicide rate of around 80 per 100.000.


New York City is one of the largest and safest places to live.


As someone who had a broken lock on their outer front door for a very long time, I could attest to this.


> globally, security will erode everywhere.

Just a day or so ago, Trump was asked about AUKUS, the closest military alliance that the US is a part of. He didn't know what it was.

For some months now, the Australian Liberal party has been going on and on about building nuclear power plants.

It's not about the electricity generation -- when pressed they'll admit that it might be as little as 4% of the supply -- but secretly it's about giving us the option of building nukes to defend ourselves in case our relationship with the US falls apart.

We can't be the only country thinking like this. South Korea, Taiwan, Japan, Singapore, and many others have the industrial base and most have nuclear power plants already, nuclear engineers, etc...

I just checked: Singapore has started talking about building nuclear power plants also.

Sigh...



Not to go too much on an AusPol tangent, LNP Nuclear stuff is more about delaying the green-power transition.

It keeps coal / gas power around for a nuclear future that is decades away at best (and never more likely). It’s a sop to the oil and mining companies. https://youtube.com/watch?v=JBqVVBUdW84



That is probably 75% of the reason, but it does dovetail very nicely with the acquisition of nuclear submarines with nuclear weapons capabilities.

I thought I was just imagining things, but I looked it up and it turns out that the Liberal party has been flirting with arming Australia with nukes since the 1990s or maybe the late 80s.



The planned AUKUS submarines have no nuclear weapon capabilities. They're nuclear powered attack submarines that use conventional weapons.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SSN-AUKUS



> In January 2023, it was reported that the submarines were likely to incorporate a vertical launch system (VLS) for land-attack missiles. This would be a first for Royal Navy SSNs, which currently launch land-attack missiles via their torpedo tubes. A VLS system was described as likely to increase interoperability options with the US Navy since future US land attack missiles may not have a horizontal launch option.

The Tomahawk and basically every similar cruise missile can easily be outfitted with any warhead. SLBMs aren't the only delivery platform.



Isn't Singapore's interest primarily in small modular reactors for their power grid? https://www.eco-business.com/news/singapore-prime-minister-s... We're talking about civilian technologies here, not nuclear profileration.


the enrichment required for a bomb vs a reactor is a bit (a lot) different. how will all these countries that are not allowed to have nukes hide their enrichment facilities that cannot be used for reactor fuel? hollow out a mountain like NK?


Why would they need to hide them?

> these countries that are not allowed to have nukes

Who says they are not allowed?



Countries with them.


Like the US, which was offering military protection in exchange for allies not building nukes.

The assurances have now been shown to be worthless.



Yes, and it’s actually even worse, it wasn’t just ‘not building them’ with Ukraine, they were stripped of them.


Countries like North Korea and Pakistan managed to build nuclear weapons and credible enough delivery systems a couple of decades ago How difficult do you think it will be for other countries with today's much more modern technology if they really want to build them? Id be very surprised if the likes of Japan, Korea, Taiwan, Israel or even Iran don't already secretly possess nuclear weapons. I'd expext at least several others have ongoing programns - the cautionary lesson from the different fates of Saddam, Gaddafi, Zelensky and Kim has certainly been learned.

One way to read Iran's ballistic missile attack on empty Israeli desert is as a demonstration that Israel's defence is unable to stop anything even approaching 100% of ballistic missiles. With nuclear weapons, the cost of even 1 leaker is unacceptable. You notice Netanyahu's public feud with Iran appears to be winding down.



Israel has had nuclear weapons for decades.


Maybe think about switching to buying French submarines.


> the government enforces a zero-sum game against the population

Can you expand on what that means, in laymen terms?



They assume there's a fixed amount of wealth to go around and if they give anything up they should immediately get something more valuable in return else they're losing out.

In reality, by making certain trades or investments new situations and opportunities can be created, making everyone better off.



In a zero-sum game you benefit only when somebody else loses and vice-versa.

Which means if you make a deal with someone and they benefit from it - you lost. In other words - you should only do deals that hurt others.

It's a truly vile view of world, but what's more important is - it's false and counterproductive. There's no place for international cooperation in zero-sum universe. There's just exploitation through military or non-military means.

In a zero-sum game world USA does not join WW1 nor WW2. Instead it waits for Europe to collapse and invade to establish "American Europe". Anything else is suboptimal.

NATO makes no sense in zero-sum game world. NATO clearly benefits smaller countries which means it hurts USA. NATO should be therefore dissolved and let's shake them small countries for protection money.

The funny thing is - in such a world USA loses and China wins.



>In a zero-sum game world USA does not join WW1 nor WW2

WW2 is not the best example. The USA got attacked (Pearl Harbor). The USA didn't enter WW2 until the USA got attacked.



> In a zero-sum game world USA does not join WW1 nor WW2. Instead it waits for Europe to collapse and invade to establish "American Europe". Anything else is suboptimal.

That would have led to Soviet Europe. This is a very naive take, the involvement of the US on WWII was absolutely a rational calculation based on a zero-sum game (defeating the Nazi and establishing spheres of influence). The game becomes positive sum on the basis of long term economic development.



If someone is winning, it must mean someone else is losing (hence the "deal" sums to zero)

There is no comprehension that an agreement might actually benefit both sides

This is presumably why you hear such things as "Canada is screwing us for 200 billion dollars a year" because we buy things from them

Edit: you can see it in this thread, too. As though helping poor people could have no benefit to the rich

I've seen it with people complaining about paying taxes for public transit, even though they only drive a car. Bonus points if they complain about traffic in the same rant without ever putting 2-and-2 together



By denying access to basic services like education and health care, brutalizing the poor and enforcing laws selectively (black kid with few grams of weed = dealer; white kid with 50g and a digital scale = user), the government makes sure that the only options available to poor black people are misery or crime. Prisons are overcrowded and become effective schools of crime. Once you're through the system, you have very little option besides continuing to practice crime to feed yourself.

An extremely regressive tax system and overly complicated bureaucracy, designed to extract bribes, all but guarantee that only the well connected can invest and thrive, and makes sure that there is very little social mobility. Free education is available at all levels, but public basic schools are atrocious and public colleges have competitive admission, meaning that those with access to private education growing up get a subsidized degree from the government.

Building codes are rarely enforced so slum dwellers need not be paid more than enough to eat.

It is all very well thought out. Brazil is not underdeveloped. Brazil is a slave society with extra steps.



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The expectation would be for the rich to pay their fair share of taxes and for the system to be for the people, by the people.


“Stealing from the rich to feed the poor” sounds very good in paper. I live in a country that does something like this and what you’re asking for is to steal from the already overworked and overtaxed middle class to give it to those who refuse to work.


Interesting, so you are saying that Brazil can't make anything against inequality while other succeed better?

I've heard first hand from a business leader working decades with Brazil that they actively keep the poor people uneducated to better use them, although having those better skilled would increase the overall productivity.



No, the necessary changes are cultural; the government can’t and shouldn’t do anything about it. What they really shouldn’t do is give handouts, since that’s sure to perpetuate the inequality. Necessity is the mother of invention, teaching a man to fish, yada yada yada.


I'll bite: if the necessary changes are "cultural":

- who has the ability to effect such changes?

- who has the right to effect such changes?

(EDIT: markup)



Cultural changes must come from inside. Trying to make cultural changes from outside is unethical (and gross). But those changes will never occur if you give handouts. Giving handouts is making them stay poor, artificially making their culture not evolve.


Brazilian poors are kept poor by design, it's a long standing project from Brazilian elites (agrobusiness, political dynasties) to keep the poor uneducated for better control and exploitation.

Cultural changes are hard to be enacted if there isn't political power for doing so, Brazil also produced some very well educated people who have attempted to change the status quo of basic education lacking civics/political thought, most notably Paulo Freire.

Still there is a concerted effort to keep the poor uneducated, voting is mandatory in Brazil and if you are a corrupt politician (as most are there) you really do not want the people to be able to figure out your schemes. You keep them out of civics, they are just cheap labour who cannot understand complexities of government, civics, and so on.

I believe you do not know Brazilian society at all, and are simply throwing some empty platitudes based on your misguided ideology. It's not about fucking handouts, those are simply necessary for a large percentage of Brazilians to survive due to the lack of opportunities and basic education which most of the population lives under.

> Nobody is "keeping them down" but themselves

You really are a true believer, personal responsibility can never overtake a system of oppression.



From the inside of what?


From inside the poor community. You have to let them find out by themselves that living in squalor off side hustles is a bad alternative to finding a stable job, behaving, and then prospering. Giving them money for nothing perpetuates these issues, since they don't have a reason to improve their situation.

I'm saying all these things because I am from a poor community. I know how things work in such communities, and it's nothing like well off people (like most of you reading these lines are) think it is. Nobody is "keeping them down" but themselves.



>You have to let them find out by themselves that living in squalor off side hustles is a bad alternative to finding a stable job, behaving, and then prospering.

Ahh yes, find out from their rich people run media with their rich people run government to get jobs run by rich people run businesses who aren't actually givng out jobs to the poor due to how their system works.

Yes, it's clearly the poor people's fault for being too stupid to want more money. Jim Crow would be shaking your hand right now.

>I'm saying all these things because I am from a poor community.

I come from a poor community too. If my grandparents didn't get "handouts" as you call them from food drives and food stamps, there's a good chance their 3 kids wouldn't have been healthy. Which of course means I wouldn't be born. My parents and aunt/uncle would barely have a chance to rise up amidts the need to buy food and pay rent to stay alive, and I'd likely be deleted with no opportunity because people like you insist on pulling yourselves up by their bootstraps instead of helping a community out so that the rising tides raises all ships.

Stop listening to rich people propoganda gaslighing you. They benefit from keeping people poor.



I said the rich should pay their _fair share_ of taxes, but you immediately took it all the way to “stealing from the rich to feed the poor”.

I think what just happened here is a good example of how far to the right (and towards blatant Aristocracy) we’ve come. The political spectrum is completely blown out to one side, to the point where mentioning paying taxes is considered off brand and bad, instead of patriotic.



They agree with you and the results are clear. I am not advocating anything, I left that mess behind because I am not interested in living like that.


The incentive is that you make a place where you actually want to live.


Historically voting with your feet seems to yield way better results.


That's quite a jump of conclusion. Astonishing actually.

First of all, poors, worldwide, are the vast majority by any measure you pick.

So poors, becoming majority, is a no point. Moot.

Now, to another point. Poor prospering.

Have you ever considered that poor prospering can actually be a good thing? More consumption, more taxes being collected across, more wealth spread and circulating on the economy. More opportunities for the poor, and the rich, who will have a broader audience to become more rich?

And now to the subsides. Think this improvement on wealth circulation as a business, a good business outcome, shall we? As so many business, owned by riches, which make riches more rich, are already heavily subsided by governments across the globe for so many reasons (internal/external).

It's not such a big leap for yes, to advocate to some sort of subside to improve poor's situation.

Your comment sounds very classist. A true symptom of the very problem we're and will be dealing with.



I think the whole 'majority' point is supposed to be a racist dog whistle.


You can find the same thing (well, similar) in San Francisco, Oslo, Antwerpen. It's plain refusal to police and hold up societal values.


That is a simplistic assumption. These cities you mentioned have nowhere near the same problem that Rio de Janeiro and São Paulo, for example, have.

Brazilian police do overwhelming policing against poor communities and the resulting brutalization only compounds the problem.



El Salvador is strong evidence that the issue is a lack of enforcement. It hasn't been well covered in the mainstream media because it goes against the typical narrative. Their homicide rate in 2016 was 107 - one of the highest in the world and several times that of Brazil. As of 2024 it's 1.9, a fraction of even the US' rate. [1]

The solution? Round up obvious gang members, who conveniently like to mark it all over their body, throw them in prison, throw away the key. If they get violent in the process then don't even bother with the whole prison thing. Were the people just terrified about this horrible abuse of power? No, their Supreme Court made an exception to allow him to run for another term and he won with 80%+ of the vote, his party gaining a super majority, and El Salvador is rapidly going from one of the most dangerous places on Earth to a very safe one.

"First they came for the gang members... and then life was pretty great and everybody lived happily ever after." BTW similar sorts of crackdowns have also happened in numerous places including Thailand and the Philippines (in both cases over drugs), with similarly resoundingly positive results. Enforcement works.

[1] - https://apnews.com/article/el-salvador-homicides-gangs-bukel...



The problem with El Salvador is that it's a better lock up 9 innocent people than let one guilty person go free type of problem now. And it is guilt by how you look and some association.

It's great if you're a tourist with limited Spanish ability and are tired of Costa Rica. Very shitty if you have any family members that get thrown in jail forever with out due process based on how the government felt they looked.



It's also apparently great if you live in El Salvador. His approval rating is > 90% and has been flirting with getting mighty close to 100% +/- statistical noise. Gang tattoos are not random - they are intentionally designed and chosen to indicate your unambiguous affiliation with a specific gang in order to prove loyalty and acceptance. In many cases they can also go much further indicating rank, crimes committed, and more.

They are also often done in very visible places, including the face and hands. Here [1] for instance are various individuals with MS-13 (which was a group initially started by Salvadoran migrants in LA) tattoos. You're not going to make a mistake there, and the gang itself would have also also taken care of imposters.

The groups expressing concern about the gang members tend to be Western human rights organizations in different countries. The president of El Salvador has offered to allow the countries of these groups to take in as many of the prisoners as they would like, if they'd like to more personally look after and ensure their rights. His offers have not been accepted.

[1] - https://yandex.com/images/search?text=ms13%20tattoos



Let's see how incarcerating poor people in droves without due legal process will play out in the long term. Brazil has been doing that for a long time. We have very strong nation wide crime syndicates expanding into Latin America now.


I mean, it is covered by mainstream media. There’s like 4 articles on it in the last year in the NYT. Here’s one: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/08/29/opinion/el-salvador-safet...


As a quick proxy:

Intentional homicide rate per 100,000 in Brazil: 20. In Norway: 0.725, Netherlands: 0.691. United States: 5.763

Not even the US, which those of us in Europe often consider crime-ridden, is nearly as dangerous as Brazil.



Colombia, 25.269. It mysteriously increases with proximity to cocaine.

Hmm, but the Netherlands, though. OK maybe scrub that theory.



there's no similarity. A general property of cultures that are like Brazil's is over-policing.


> a general property of cultures that are like Brazil's

Interesting take. Another such "superior" culture (or rather, superior military-industrial economy built on sustaining/managing conflict) exports mass policing technology to Brazil. https://idanlandau-com.translate.goog/2016/02/04/technologie... (in Hebrew: https://idanlandau.com/2016/02/04/technologies-of-oppression...)

...which is OP's point, that it needn't be zero sum, at least not from regional/global superpowers.



It's basically the Back to the Future II world / timeline, which makes sense when you consider who Biff was based on.


An interesting fact about that timeline is that the writers based it partially on what they thought the world would be like if Trump was president.


I had to try to find a source for Trump being inspiration for Biff as it just sounded "too good" to be true and apparently it has been stated by screenwriter Bob Gale who wrote it together with director Robert Zemeckis:

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2015/oct/23/back-to-the-fut...



Trump has always been a caricature of the rich asshole. They even made fun of him in a Robocop movie, if I remember correctly.


It's funny as a non-US how many (older) films etc. he's mentioned in (or even cameos in), having never heard of him until (not long before) his first term.

e.g. I watched American Psycho last night, in which there's some 'is that the Trumps', 'why would Ivanka Trump be here'.



At least some of his cameos were down to Trump demanding them in return for the use of locations he owned.

E.g. that's the case for Home Alone 2, where he demanded the cameo for the use of The Plaza Hotel:

https://www.mirror.co.uk/3am/us-celebrity-news/real-reason-d...



I dont remember how much it carried over to the film but in the book, Trump is the person the titular psycho...

> idolizes above all others. Bateman talks about him constantly, citing incredibly specific details of his life of luxury, and is often distracted by the thought of seeing Trump or his wife Ivana out in New York City.



Trump was the prototypical 1980s rich person. E.g. see Roger Ebert's Wall Street review:

https://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/wall-street-1987



I can top that. As a child I was a fan of a relatively unknown sitcom titled “Out Of This World” and I rediscovered it a couple years ago. It was truly surreal to hear Donald Trump mentioned in a show from 1987–1991. (American Psycho is from 2000.)


The novel is from 1991.


Or his cameo in the Home Alone 2 film, in the Plaza hotel which he owned.


I think Stephen King wrote a novel about a US president who was a crook trying to trigger WW3. Based on Trump he said. Had one of the Sheens in it.




Which is ironic, because Trump seems pretty against war on the whole.


He says that, but what do you call being aggressive and hostile to allies -- i.e. threatening military force to take the Panama Canal and Greenland -- while aligning with Russia and China, who play the long game and will pretend to be friendly until the moment they see an opening and take it?


1. People think he's crazy, so he's taking advantage of how they underestimate him.

2. He's taking advantage of anchoring bias: he makes a completely outrageous first offer which then makes any subsequent offer seems more reasonable, even if it was higher than you would otherwise accept. He does this all of the time, and it's a standard negotiating tactic in general, but it sometimes works well for Trump because of how people see him (see point 1).



How is undermining America’s alliances in security and trade with other democracies advantageous? How does that ultimately help us as a county?


Yes, he's of the opinion that the alliances in security and trade have not been a net benefit to the US. Is that shocking to you? He's literally been saying that for years. And thus, he's acting to change those agreements to make them more advantageous and to stimulate domestic production to compete with foreign labour (that's ultimately what tariffs do). He's going about it in his usual bombastic and ham-fisted way of course, but he's doing exactly what he's always said he wanted to do.


Well that’s certainly the opinion, but the point is that no evidence has been presented to support it.


It's completely self-evident that lots of manufacturing has left the US due to trade agreements. This has resulted in certain classes of cheap goods but also made the US vulnerable in key goods (like electronics), and inhibited automation.

It's also not at all obvious that the US has been more secure in its role as world police. Arguably, it led directly to 9/11 and decades of pointless death in the Middle East.

All of the arguments that the status quo was more secure and better economically are weak, at best, given the complexities of the counterfactuals.



I think the arguments in favor of a globalized economy, as well as the transition to a knowledge economy, are abundant and pervasive. I’m not going to argue in favor of them because they are already so powerful and obvious.

If people conflate their current economic misfortune with a US foreign policy of encouraging global cooperation and participation, then they haven’t thought much about cause and effect.

Someone who cared to address the newfound lack of upward mobility in our society would insist on domestic policies that ensured economic surplus was explicitly invested toward the public good.



Trump's for whatever is good for Trump. Stopping a war so he can bring his buddy Vlad back in to the fold? Sure. Starting a war so he can annex Greenland? Probably also sure.


> Starting a war so he can annex Greenland? Probably also sure.

Oh please.



That's the other fun side of Trump. He says a ton of outrageous things but, if you like him, you just pick and choose which bits are ridiculous and jokes and which are truthful when it's actually impossible to figure out which is which. Is he going to take over Greenland with force? His followers will say probably not because they don't see it. Is he going to introduce tariffs to Canada? His followers will say yes because they do see it. Has he done either? Not yet. Will he? Who knows!

But whether he's serious or not about a claim really comes down to whether someone likes it or not. Regardless, I'd argue that's a really poor way to lead.



I don't like Trump at all, but I'm not blind to history. He likes building things, particularly with his name on it. Even with Gaza his inclination is to build something in that completely devastated area.

He's also very sensitive to public opinion of him, and he knows public opinion is against military conflict. People are sick of it.

So war is the complete antithesis of everything he's ever demonstrably cared about. That's a pretty solid piece of evidence that lets you distinguish what seems reasonable, but that gets conveniently ignored by people that let their feelings about him influence their judgment.



I think there's more going on with the war than just he's anti-war, but I can kind of see this argument. But if we take it as true, it would seem that he's bad at working towards the things he professes to want. He either doesn't understand them or he pushes to get the fastest result without thought as to whether that would be the best.


This is my explanation for what you describe:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43219380

I don't like it, but I can't deny that he's made it work more often than expected. Possibly with some negative downstream effects we haven't seen yet. Time will tell.



What?

He's threatened Panama, Denmark, and Kanada (his supposed allies) with military action.

He's stated that he would let Putin "do whatever he wants".

He's now abandoning Ukraine and doing Putins bidding (Putin who is one of the biggest warmongers and dictators in modern times).

He plans to "level Gaza" (which means genocide) so he can build luxury hotels.

Even if you take him for his words, which you shouldn't, he's a warmonger not a peace lover.



> Even if you take him for his words, which you shouldn't

This is exactly the kind of unhinged take on Trump that drives me crazy, and I'm not even a fan. On the one hand you say he's a liar and you can't believe anything he says, but when it's convenient for you, suddenly everything he says is completely literal.

The fact of the matter is that Trump has never initiated any serious military action, and he has a deliberate and predictable tactic of making outrageous offers and threats to put people off balance to make them compliant and accept worse offers than they otherwise would have (anchoring bias). This is a standard negotiating tactic, Trump just does it bombastically like no one else.

> He's stated that he would let Putin "do whatever he wants".

The US is not the world police. Other people being warmongers doesn't make Trump a warmonger because he "lets them".

> He plans to "level Gaza" (which means genocide) so he can build luxury hotels.

No, he didn't suggest killing anyone, he explicitly said they would be relocated. That's closer to ethnic cleansing, but decidedly not genocide.



oh wow. ist that documented somewhere?


Look for Bob Gale, the writer, in Variety magazine.




Except the movie came out in 1989. Trump wasn’t really well known in the media when the movie was written. There wasn’t even a trump tower.


He was well known in the 1980s, with a reputation for poor taste even then. He first ran for President at 41 and was on the cover of Newsweek in 1987:

https://web.archive.org/web/20160312080447/http://europe.new...

Doonesbury and Bloom County, popular comic strips running in most newspapers, had arcs involving him, too:

https://web.archive.org/web/20160306081734/http://doonesbury...



In addition Trump Tower was opened in 1983.


Not everyone benefits from cooperation. Feuds are a great "business opportunity" - while everyone's divided and at each other's throat, you can take them out (or extort/bully) one by one, without any consequences, especially if you have the biggest and scariest stick in the block. So, solidarity, cooperation, and people sticking up for each other are absolutely awful for thugs and bullies.


The US already had all the power when people called it the leader of the free world, when people start using the word "bully," that signifies a major shift.


It will result in a loss of power. Isolation is not a strengthening posture. You need allies to succeed over the long term. This looks like the beginning of the downfall of the United States from every measure.


I don't disagree. But then for most of the 7,000 years of recorded history, GDP (and all the might that wealth ensures) was strictly a function of population. It wasn't until European colonialism came in the 1400s and industrialization in the 1700s that guns, resource extraction, and productivity gains changed the game.

But WW2 ended colonialism and 90s globalization spread industrialization worldwide, leaving us all in the slow roll of reverting to the mean now. At the end of which, the ancient civilizations of China and India, with nearly 3 billion people between them, will return to global dominance.



Oh, I don't think it is the US as a whole that's meant to benefit from this coercive behavior. And it's not just the foreign policy. While Trump keeps pointing fingers at those "who are to blame for our problems" (transes stealing our children, biden stealing elections, immigrants stealing jobs and welfare, Ukrainians stealing aid) and the society stays divided on these issues, plenty of opportunities for business (extortion) arise for himself and his buddies, especially now that his hands are not tied by anything. This strategy worked wonders for another narcissist bully thug named Putin. That's basically divide and conquer.


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> People broadly like americans and american culture

And from your own link to that survey where the US was #1 threat to world peace, the US was still one of the top places where the respondents wanted to live.



> People broadly like ... american culture

I don't think so. Admire its riches, and unwaveringly aggressive pursuit of commercial success perhaps, but like its culture, beyond the Hollywood blockbusters? That's not so common.



What will Donald Trump, Elon Musk and Peter Thiel's wealth look like when the us dollar isn't the main transfer currency, the world sees the biggest financial crisis in the last couple centuries and everyone wants to cash out on their US bonds because all of a sudden there's 0 trust in the US government?

That's what we're headed towards. The 'dark enlightenment' fascists think they can accelerate a switch of global banking moving towards cryptocurrency. Good fucking luck trading a bitcoin when normal finance is blowing up, grocery stores are going to struggle with stocking their shelves.



The thing that crypto correlated the most with so far has been tech stocks, the most exposed ones. So I don't think crypto will hold much longer than those and will crash earlier than the rest if your scenario was to be true.

Also, if crypto would be to become any money, then it would not produce any yield in average. So it would not be interesting to hold, the whole scenario makes no sense.



They don't have to care because there is so much wealth to acquire in the short term. Trump alone will enrich himself with billions in bribes from foreign companies. The DOGE/Project2025 annihilation of government programs will result in drastic privatization with all of the billionaire class benefitting immediately.

All of the dark outcomes you describe are possible while a certain class has profitted already so much they don't care and will happily retreat into their bunker.



Here is a more nuanced take imho:

* After decades of reckless spending and lax economic management the US is going broke in a number of ways. In particular dealing with the national debt before and after Covid are very different beasts

* Coupled with similar problems in other countries and gradual global demographic decline, the global future looks like a zero sum game

* In its relations with other states, America has tended to leave a lot of money on the table since the Cold War era, in order to curry political favor, which it can no longer afford to do

* Republicans speak and campaign more openly about this than Democrats even though they both agree on the fundamental ideas I just outlined

* This is why Republicans are currently ascendant with the electorate and Democrats are seeing some of their worst numbers ever in favorability polls

* It is eminently reasonable to not prefer zero sum geopolitical games because they tend to cause poverty and war, but we've boxed ourselves into this future through decades of poor decisions



Cooperation is never a zero sum game compared to non-cooperation.

That is pretty much the definition of it.

And for example free trade is a flavour of it.



War is a negative sum game. Peace is a positive sum game.

The reality is China is now the top trading partner for most of the world. China is producing 50% of the world's steel. China has 200x the shipbuilding capacity of the United States, etc etc. Cooperation with China is positive sum for nearly the whole world, but China as the preeminent geopolitical power is incompatible with the unipolar moment where America led the world and decided the rules of the road, and could force dissenters to comply at gunpoint. China is far more relatively powerful than the USSR ever was, much less China+Russia+Iran+North Korea combined.

This is what we're seeing play out in microcosm in Ukraine, where Russia is to a large degree being backstopped by Chinese industrial and economic and diplomatic power. Hard choices are required, and there can be a lot of productive debate on the specifics of those choices. But much of "the west" seems stuck in the 1990s, where America can simply will the world it wants into existence by believing in it enough.

If America and the EU had started dumping 10% of GDP into the military 5 or 15 years ago things would likely look very different now, but we didn't and no one wants to do that now either because it would be incredibly painful for millions of people who in a democracy could vote out the leaders who enacted that policy. Hard choices are required, but we're getting mainly empty rhetoric and wishcasting, by those who wish things were otherwise. I also wish things were otherwise - but that and $5 will get me a cup of Starbucks coffee.

"The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays is coming to its close. In its place we are entering a period of consequences." - Winston Churchill



> If America and the EU had started dumping 10% of GDP into the military 5 or 15 years ago things would likely look very different

is this a typo? US already has the highest military budget in the world, the last thing it needs is to put more money into it.



And what is striking is that, so far, China is effectively defeating the USA as the world leader, piece by piece, without firing a shot.

Or at least, has a golden opportunity window to do so within the next 2/3 years, while Trump/Musk & co are dismantling the country capacity to function.



And the only weapon required was making a constituency of American ignorance, resentment, and mean-spiritedness.


China has done that by ruling internally with an iron fist and ruling externally with financial influence.

The U.S. is actually trying a play from the same playbook by abstaining from deploying troops.

When was the last time you saw China getting torn apart in the media for failing to prop up a failed state? They're doing "greenfield" diplomacy without historical baggage.



Free trade as implemented in the past seems to have been the opposite of democratic cooperation. Non-elected appointees making free trade agreements behind locked doors, which effect ignore the citizens interest and makes industry regulation irrelevant. It was free trade that enshrined current copyright laws world wide with 90 years after the authors death, which few people in the world voted for.

Free trade only reflect cooperation if done transparently, chosen by the people, and which does not bypass industry regulation that people voted on. If that is not possible then the trade agreement need to reflect the different national views on things like minimum wage, environmental issues, safety standard, animal well fare, justice system, trade marks, and so on.



Further to this point, what people call "free trade" is in many cases actually not free at all. A good example of this is the bilateral relationship with Thailand, they put tons of tariffs on US imports, and the US puts very few tariffs on Thailand. Why? The rationale for this is ostensibly that the US would like to have more political influence in Southeast Asia, or hasn't totally internalized that the Cold War is over, or something.

(It also so happens that Thailand places very low tariffs on Chinese goods - and their government has been currying political favor with Beijing for a long time - they are happy to enjoy unrestricted access to US markets and seem quite confident that the status quo will endure so if we are trying to buy political influence with them, we seemingly have been so toothless that it isn't even working!)

The US has deals like this all over the planet where it gives other countries unrestricted access to its markets, in return for what is not clear. A lot of these deals contributed to the movement of US manufacturing to places like Thailand, which hit the US working class in the wallet very directly. Sure there are also good deals that we should preserve as-is but it doesn't seem unreasonable at all to me that some of these be subjected to scrutiny and revision.



That’s why Trump saying he’ll normalize tariffs is popular:

Many Americans feel cheated, whereby they give better terms to other parties and don’t even get respect in return. So they now support a movement to mirror that behavior.

This is an example of the iterated prisoner’s dilemma: one side defected on a partnership for their benefit, trust collapsed, and now the originally cooperative partner is acting selfishly as well. Reciprocation is a fundamental part of relationships.

The US isn’t the entity that needs to hear “cooperating is better than a zero sum mindset”.

Edit to respond:

Most of those people are upset about that as well:

- foreign owned farmland and corporations;

- foreign owned condos, etc;

- inflated stock prices enriching Wall St relative to Main St;

…and so on. What you’re describing is the concerns of the petite bourgeoisie who have benefitted from inflated stock prices, housing prices, and land prices.

For Trump supporters, ending that distortion in the market while boosting domestic labor is a win-win.



Americans will “feel cheated” again when reality arrives and learn that a huge part of their economic power is based on the world dumping trillions of dollars of their savings into us stocks, bonds and real estate, thus making the US dollar artificially strong, making it possible for Americans to buy stuff and being rich. Wait until foreign money and trust starts leaving the US to see how “betrayed” you really get, now it has been la la land, let’s wait for the next act..


I don't think the average American knows about what tariffs USA has against Thailand.

I think they feel cheated because they are told to feel cheated.



I assume the intended audience for the tariff talk is rust belt workers (who swung the election) who feel cheated for more dramatic reasons like their company folding while foreign suppliers thrive.


> Many Americans feel cheated, whereby they give better terms to other parties and don’t even get respect in return

> - foreign owned farmland and corporations;

That's hilarious. Many languages have a specific term for US private equity investors that rush in, buy up entire countries' corporations, then try to squeeze out every cent of profit.

Especially after the fall of the Berlin wall and the iron curtain this became a massive issue. See also https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heuschreckendebatte

Every American - even the demographics that typically support Trump - has benefited from this.



> Many languages have a specific term for US private equity investors that rush in, buy up entire countries' corporations, then try to squeeze out every cent of profit.

Sure — the US bourgeoisie and petite bourgeoisie benefitted. But they’re not the ones supporting Trump or feeling cheated.



> But they’re not the ones supporting Trump or feeling cheated.

One of the groups most benefiting from the US dominance in the past decades were the farmers. Which is one of the larger lobby blocks and voting groups supporting trump.

And the logic doesn't compute either. Average people around the world got exploited by western, but primarily US, billionaires.

So the average people, the proletariat, should unite and revolt against those billionaires.

Instead the US proletariat voted to give billionaires even more power, in the hope that "their" billionaires would exploit foreigners more than themselves?



Free trade is built on top of economic systems which themselves are built on top of zero sum games. The only thing we can put economic value on are goods and services that use finite resources (oil, lumber, human labor, etc).

A forest, for example, has no economic value but lumber does.

Free trade may optimize how goods and services are dispersed but it can't escape the zero sum game that is foundational to economics.



I don't think it is merely a matter of redistribution. It can escape the zero-sum game through productivity gains, technological progress, recycling, and better legislation (for example, policies that regenerate forests). It may even create new industries as replacements. Because of this, I don’t believe it is inherently a zero-sum game.

> The only thing we can put economic value on are goods and services that use finite resources

A software patent does not consume physical resources (aside from the initial human labor) yet holds tremendous economic value. An app can be easily duplicated, making it a virtually infinite resource, while the patent remains attached to its novel functionalities.



> It can escape the zero-sum game through productivity gains, technological progress, recycling, and better legislation

Isn't that just a temporary reprieve of optimization in a broader zero sum game though?

All of those feel to me like ways to take advantage of inefficiencies in the system rather than escaping the game all together.



There is always the possibility to dig deeper mines, explore further into space or just give people the possibility to live more a comfortable life.

But it is not only about that. Trade is also for comparative advantage. If you ever played settlers boardgame with more than two players you'll soon realize that whoever trades the most wins. And it does not really matter who you trade with, it is just reaping the benefits of trade instead of being stuck with 10 wood that is of low value to you but of high value to someone else.



What you're describing is a zero sum game. The world is limited to the board game, and whoever is best at trading and strategy collects the most finite resources and the others lose.

(Sorry if I lost the thread here. Most here were trying to argue that trade and globalization are a way to escape a zero-sum game).



I get your point, but I don't think a board game is a good abstraction to collapse the real world into. The world is not a fixed, closed system with finite resources. In a board game, expansion and innovation are not possible, only trading and strategy, as you mentioned, can optimise the system to some extent. Moreover, winning in a board game happens solely because of its rules, whereas in the real world, one person's success does not necessarily mean another's loss. Trade can be mutually beneficial, driven by each party's ambitions.


Innovation is an interesting wrinkle in the comparison for sure (I used the comparison only to continue with the previous commentor's point). Innovation only increase the potential usefulness of resources though. Assuming that will always avoid hitting the boundary of the zero sum game assumes perpetual innovation at a good enough pace to keep up.

Trade is an interesting one because it can be mutually beneficial, though it rarely includes everyone. Two countries can trade and both be better off, but other countries excluded may now be worse off. Trade also can't be mutually beneficial with regards to relative gain. Both sides can gain in trade or cooperation but one will always have gained more than the other. That doesn't make my point by the way, but an interesting related dimension to the whole topic.



My post had two paragraphs.

The first tried to explain that it does not necessarily have to be a zero-sum game.

The second paragraph tried to explain that, even if you do see it as a zero sum game, trade between two parties, or trade in general, can give you benefits over ones who are not part of the trade.

Obviously I am trying to describe this in simple terms without writing a book. But i do think the board game analogy holds even though it is very simple.



That's a very limited (XIXth century?) perspective.

A forest (like, anything) has economic value, as soon as you get people to adopt/believe in it.

A forest may even have a greater economic value than the lumber it could produce, if it would, for instance, help/ensure the prosperity of something else that has economic value (leisure, wildlife, heat protection, soil water retention, etc.).



I completely agree outside of economics. I put much higher value on a forest than lumber. Economically, though, where is the forest ever accounted for?


In your strategic business plan, by IFRS accounting standards (existing and developing).

You have several options, account for it as lumber (but... well), or as a carbon sequestration well (so you could get carbon credits, IAS 38), or as an ecosystem providing services (several frameworks under work here), or as a contingent liability or asset (IAS 37, can be in the balance sheet if the probability of event/impact is high/certain).

Even if you forget to account for it, your insurance likely will remind you about it.



Once someone can "own" the forest, that be a bit of a cheat around the whole idea. I'm thinking out loud here, but I think all of you're examples are actually valuing the financial mechanisms rather than the forest itself.

The carbon credits are given economic value, its just not a physical resource like lumber so its harder to distinguish that the credit holds the value rather than the forest.



You ask me how to account for it. In accounting, that’s how, and you can get creative too.


Sure, but in those accounting mechanisms are you valuing the forest or the financial asset the paper ownership of forestland grants you?

I'd expect the lumber or carbon credits, for example, to be the actual asset accounted for rather than the forest itself.



The US has never been richer, adjusted for inflation, both in aggregate and per person. [0]

The idea that there have been decades of reckless spending and the US is going broke I think is not at all a nuanced take.

Anecdotes about the inflation of prices of eggs (which is 0.05% of US economy) don't change the overall facts that are material.

I will grant you that debt servicing needs immediate attention. Blowing up 100 years of foreign policy has nothing to do with that, however.

The number of NATO members spending 2% or more on defense went from 3 to 23 in the past 10 years. Their spending almost doubled in the past 10 years, while the US only grew 15% (actually shrunk in PPP terms). [1]

The US has been successfully pressuring NATO allies to pick up the bill, without having to call Ukraine a dictator and cede Ukraine to Russia without US security guarantees, and promote politics of appeasement that will lead to China taking Taiwan which is the only material place that produces the future's most important geopolitical asset: chips.

The US looking to reduce debt also isn't compatible with raising tariffs on everyone including allies, reducing taxes and warding off cheap immigrant labour, it's the opposite. Trump seems to have 25% good ideas, 75% bad ideas, and 90% poor execution that causes a lot of collateral damage. Penny wise pound foolish comes to mind a lot when I look at his policy choices.

[0] https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locat... [1] https://www.nato.int/nato_static_fl2014/assets/pdf/2024/6/pd...



Averages hide extremes. In this case it hides how much poorer the poor got and richer the rich got. America is not "rich" in a way that benefits the middle class.


Median personal income shows the same trend. It's not an inequality issue.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA646N



And to address that gap between the rich and poor, Trump is ... firing middle-class government employees, cutting taxes (which primarily favors the rich), and toying with cutting social programs?


"The number of NATO members spending 2% or more on defense went from 3 to 23 in the past 10 years"

Which is the reason that maybe Trump is not working for Putin? By scaring Europe into re-militarizing, that is bad for Russia.

Not just 2%, but what if this spurs Germany into "hey, lets ramp this Military up and take on Russia again". That isn't good for Russia.

And this Trump attack on Ukraine, will unite the Ukraine people.

The things Trump does backfires? Or is that the plan. He's getting a militarized Europe and a United Ukraine. If he wants the opposite, then this is really bad way of going about it.

EDIT: Just trying to find a silver lining. Maybe a wakeup call by a global all powerful tyrant will move the world toward some unity?



There is absolutely zero real life evidence that anyone can possibly point to that supports the Trump is secretly a genius and is playing 4D chess theory.


I think it’s pretty likely that he is smart enough to try and use “madman theory” to gain his advantage. Whether that plays out to be a good strategy in the long term remains to be seen. However, in the past it has worked to a degree when leaders have utilized it.


I didn't really mean he is doing it on-purpose, 4-D Chess style. Just a thought, he could be achieving the opposite of his desires, and by accident helping Europe?


If Trump does accidentally manage to unite Europe, have them end the Ukraine war, and all without US involvement and spending… he will of course immediately claim full credit.


how about a far target of doing anything possible against China? Abandoning EU (thus pushing them to ramp up) and seemingly siding with Russia if needed.


> By scaring Europe into re-militarizing, that is bad for Russia.

Any anti-Russian benefit that has is dwarfed by the pro-Russian benefit of having a wedge driven between the US and Europe, which is what is happening. Even a Europe that invests more heavily is defense is far less scary to Russia than the threat of US military power, especially in the short to medium term. The US has military capability that will be difficult for anyone to recreate, even advanced economies like those of Germany, simply because of scale and long experience.

The best outcome for the US/European alliance would be a more militarily capable Europe still strongly allied with the US. Maybe that was the 4D chess goal, but if so Trump appears to have way overshot it.



The problem I see is that while Europe is waking up to the fact that they need to invest more in defense, they haven't realized yet that they need to build a military that can actually project power if they want to replace/augment the US. That's a different beast. And you are right, no single country in Europe could do that, and it would indeed be very bad if they would try. What has to happen is that Europe, ideally including the UK, comes together to form such a military.


Honest question: do you feel rich?


Yes, although I'm not in the US.


> After decades of reckless spending and lax economic management the US is going broke in a number of ways. In particular dealing with the national debt before and after Covid are very different beasts

Most of the reckless spending is by Republicans via unfunded tax which grows the deficit

Then when they’re in opposition they suddenly become deficit hawks

Republicans don’t mind the debt pile growing providing it’s the rich getting the money, they object when it’s ordinary people’s lives who are being made better



I don't agree with your conclusions, but I feel you're arguing in good faith and therefore don't deserve down votes.

I'm not sure America actually has left a lot of money on the table. I see America having benefitted a lot from the post cold war world order (as indeed have most of its allies), and my take is that the kind of extraction of value that Trump has been attempting is at very best only beneficial in the short term.

But again, I appreciate when people with different viewpoints can discuss them civilly, so I gave you an upvote.



Me too.


Thank you! Yes I was, and I'm of the view that our greatest strength as a democratic society is our ability to discuss opposing views civilly. I spend a lot of time overseas in societies where this ability is not present and Americans really, really underestimate how bad things can get when you lose it.

So "leaving money on the table" is admittedly very vague, using it here I'm principally referring to two things:

1) For many decades we've had a trade posture and foreign policy regime which emphasized moving production offshore. This generated a lot of corporate profits and some consumer benefits but was absolutely decimating for working class incomes and job prospects. We "left money on the table" here in the sense that money which would have been generated in the US and paid wages in the US tended to end up mostly in the hands of wealthy people in poor countries (and to some degree in the hands of their middle classes).

2) The other way we left money on the table was by opening up our markets to countries which didn't reciprocate in kind -- we reduced our tariffs on them, and they didn't reduce their tariffs on us. This again encouraged the flow of production, jobs, capital etc. out of the US and again hit the most vulnerable economic classes hardest.

The net result of this is that we have a lot of money in the US in a record few number of hands -- when you add corporate consolidation & monopolization to the mix you have a pretty complete picture of why a lot of people in this country are struggling.

So did we benefit from these policies, yeah, we did in certain ways that accrued particularly toward the top of our economic pyramid, but it seems that the bottom of it has had just about enough of this and is getting loud about it at the ballot box.



Those are valid problems, but siding with Russia against Ukraine and attempting to extort natural resource wealth from the latter doesn't address any of those issues. I understand and to a large extent agree with the domestic discontent about who has benefited and who has been hurt by decades of American trade policies, although I think much of that complaining ignores the real benefits it brought to American consumers in the form of cheaper and more available goods. But addressing those issues doesn't require flushing American foreign policy and diplomacy down the garbage disposal and in fact doing so is likely counter-productive.


Do you have an example of a civil discussion? I'm not sure what you refer to.


American working and middle classes have been devastated over the course of forty years by bad trade deals.

They’re the constituency that supports Trump.

Numbers like GDP or total wealth will be highly misleading — and it’s unsurprising that the opinion of the petite bourgeoisie (who primarily make up HN) differ from those groups.



What you're describing is an American domestic policy issue.

There's no dispute that America has become incredibly more rich and powerful over the past 40 years. The fact that that money is increasingly funneled to fewer and fewer people (as a percent of the population) is something that can be changed locally, without changing our foreign policy stance.

It's not a surprise that the "devastation" of the middle class coincides with the continued reduction of tax rates on the entities collecting all that money. The America that MAGA seems to think was great was one of higher taxes and more social programs.



can you explain how an increase in tax rate would help the middle class gain more wealth? it already makes sense that decreasing tax rate, and therefore increasing income, but decreasing income to increase wealth doesn’t make sense to me.


No, they’re coupled issues — eg, open markets forces domestic labor to compete unfairly.

The manner in which those people accrued wealth is deeply related to the issue, by subverting the working and middle classes domestically.

I understand that many of the petite bourgeoisie believe that destruction of those classes via internationalism is a means to usher in communist policy — but that’s opposed wholesale by the American working and middle classes.



> No, they’re coupled issues — eg, open markets forces domestic labor to compete unfairly.

You're still describing economic policies though, not diplomatic ones, and while they're not entirely disconnected, trying to fix international economic issues by burning down alliances is likely to result in a lot of negative second order effects while not even addressing the main economic concerns.

If we're ascribing bad faith motivations to particular viewpoints here though, I'll point out that conflating concerns about trade policies with the idea that America should entirely abandon any interest in the rest of the world is enormously helpful to countries that would like to pursue far more aggressive imperial ambitions currently being blocked by American power. Having rightfully angry people in America's rust belt become convinced that the only way to revitalize the industries that used to power their cities is to let Russia reform the Soviet Union has got to feel like the political victory of the century to Moscow.



Why isn't the answer wealth redistribution instead of tearing down the world order, tearing down the government, and hoping something positive miraculously comes out of it someday down the road?


Presumably because they view the US as best for their classes when it was easier to do business and less beholden to international affairs while simultaneously not believing that empowering the government in such a manner will benefit them.

When the party advocating wealth redistribution also calls them “deplorables” and flagrantly provides worse services (eg, NC disaster vs CA disaster) that seems like a reasonable belief.



Do you have evidence for NC disaster services being worse than CA disaster services (as provided by the Federal government)?


If Republicans would be oh-so concerned about the US "going broke" they wouldn't be pushing through trillions in tax cuts.

And much of this meeting with Zelensky had nothing to do with the budget (or at least the bits I've seen). It's just Trump being upset Zelensky isn't bending over backwards to praise Trump and being obsessed with shown to look "better" than other presidents (which is why he goes off on a tangent about Biden and Obama, disconnected from what Zelensky actually said).



I don't think this is the future or anyone is boxed in.

Trump & Co are by no measure the sharpest tools in the shed. In Trumps own words they have been up against some really inept people, who have all lost credibility.

Therefore the counter-reaction, which is building, will come, and it won't look like what Trump & Co are used to dealing with in the past. I think that's what interesting about where the story goes next. Whose is going to lead? What are they going to stand for? How are they going to organize? Its an opportunity for the best in America to shine.



The world, including the US, will be poorer and less safe if the US moves to zero sum geopolitics and mercantilism of 19th century. And the losses will be burdened on everyone else other than the very rich elites. Indeed, even a short review of America's own history would be proof of this.


Even the rich will be worse off. Just relatively less so. It's utterly irrational, but that's what happens when a population feels disillusioned with the status quo, and capital does all it can to push that unrest in any direction but reducing wealth inequality. Turns out the next easiest outlet is to appeal to humanity's worst tendencies, resulting in the rise of fascism.

This will play out over and over in liberal democracies so long as they abide a large wealth gap. It's anyone's guess whether we'll figure that out before there are no democratic states left.



The status quo in western countries of giving absolute primacy to the needs/demands of capital above all else has indeed failed. The share of national income going to the middle and working classses makes this obvious. Yet, this is not being resolved. Instead, the very same groups that have benefitted from the status quo have managed to acquire power on the back of a disaffected populous, and they hold a fundamental belief that multi-lateral institutions/geopolitics do not act in the US's (or their) economic interest.


How did we actually escape the zero sum game that is economics?

Oil, lumber, plastics, steel, human labor, electricity, etc are all still finite resources.

It seems like we've been playing in a much larger zero sum game, and that allowed us to gain temporarily profit from that much larger game. We can't escape it though, only finite resources have economic value.



Because we found something to addd on to each of them.

Oil - nuclear power - renewable energy Lumber - is renewable Plastics - use less (packaging) and more renewables - but yea this is limited and we need all oil for this. Also recycling. Steel - recycling Human labour - animal power - engines - for thought - computers then AI? Electricity - renewables - fission.

There is a lot of leeway if we don't waste the resources and ingenuity and discoveries have made it a non zero-sum game.



A related point I've heard here is that we ultimately only get one shot at bootstrapping ourselves into a truly advanced civilization no longer entirely reliant on finite resources. If we screw up the transition and expend those finite resources, especially fossil fuels, before we move beyond them, we won't have enough foundation left to try again. Nuclear and renewables might replace fossil fuels, but if you run out of fossil fuels before nuclear and renewables can pick up the slack, you're doomed to regress to a pre-energy society and it will be impossible to get back to a point where nuclear power is achievable without cheap fossil fuel energy.

The key here for me is that treating economics like a zero sum game now makes it significantly more likely we end up at a place where it really is zero sum because zero sum thinking is nearly always short-sighted by definition, and getting to the next level requires more strategic thinking.



> no longer entirely reliant on finite resources

I've never quite wrapped my head around what that looks like. What resources could we possibly use that aren't finite?

Maybe we don't hit max utilization for a while, that happens after large innovation jumps, but there's always a cap in natural resources somewhere.



That's a valid point. On long enough timescales, even stars will burn out. But the cap I was thinking of was less in terms of capacity and more in terms of longevity. There's an upper limit to how much energy we can generate with solar panels on Earth for example, but we'd be able to sustain that capacity for a long, long period of time.

On that kind of timescale, it's far less likely we run out of energy before we can move to a new alternative (perhaps an alternative planet). You're right that no resource is infinite, so maybe the better way to phrase it is resources where we won't run out of them before we are unlikely to need them again.



That probably runs into Jevan's Paradox - we may get more efficient but we'll just increase our use to take advantage of the resources we already have.

In what you describe I can't help but see us stuck on a treadmill, endlessly chasing the next innovation to replace the current tech before we run out of resources. We won't be arguing about oil the next time around, bit maybe lithium?

I can't help but wonder what the point is. We could just use less and accept enough rather than constantly wanting the next big thing. I could have 10% of what I have today and still live a more comfortable life than almost all of human history.



Economics is not zero-sum.

People working together are more productive than each person trying to subsist alone. The same goes for countries. The world economy is incredibly complex, and no country can produce everything by itself.



That works in the short term, but the broader game is still zero sum.

There's only so many resources to go around, and at least with how we treat economics the only things of value are scarce.

Innovations and cooperation can give periods of optimization so it feel like the zero sum is no longer zero sum. At the end of the day it is though, and there's probably a decent case to be made that what we're seeing happen today is due in part to us having optimized as far as we can for this round.



How is it short-term?

Division of labor does not go away. If anything, specialization and division of labor increase as the world economy becomes more and more complex and developed.



I say its short term because the inefficiencies eventually get worked out and we're back to a point where we're utilizing all the resources we can make economic use of and we again have zero sum game.

The zero sum game doesn't stop, we just found a way to unlock new uses or new resources such that we temporarily just compete to claim those new resources.

Think of it with land. If all the land we know of is already "owned" we must compete. If we discover new land everyone can scramble to "own" that land so it is temporarily not really zero sum. Ultimately land is finite though, and we get back to a zero sum game after a brief interlude.



Take a look at plots of land in your nearby city. Not all plots of land are equally valuable. Some are empty lots, others have skyscrapers on them that earn millions in rent. Your example of land as ultimately zero-sum misses something crucial: plots don't gain or lose value in isolation. The neighborhood and neighbors contribute strongly to each property's value.

When property owners improve their land, neighbors also gain value - creating a positive-sum scenario even within your 'finite resource' example. This continuous cycle of improvement and value creation isn't just a 'temporary interlude' before returning to zero-sum; it's the persistent engine of economic growth in the west.

Since Adam Smith articulated these principles of mutually beneficial exchange in 'The Wealth of Nations,' we haven't seen a return to zero-sum economics. Instead, global wealth has grown exponentially, despite population growth and resource competition. The evidence contradicts the idea that we inevitably return to zero-sum competition after brief periods of growth.

I see you thinking, wait a minute, shouldn't we be looking at wealth per capita? Yes we should. That has gone up dramatically as well. Around 1776 when Adam Smith wrote his book, global GDP per Capita was $1012 (estimated, adjusted for PPP, 2011 dollars ), in 2022 Global GDP per capita was $15 212 (computed) [1]

[1] World in data only covers 1820 to 2022 here -mostly because earlier statistics weren't detailed enough- but it'll have to do. https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/gdp-per-capita-maddison-p...

ps. Not really related to this answer, but the time-lapse map is just really fascinating https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/gdp-per-capita-maddison-p...



> When property owners improve their land, neighbors also gain value - creating a positive-sum scenario even within your 'finite resource' example

There is a finite pool of property and of buyers though. Its reasonable to assume they if one piece of property gains in value others lose value because they are now less desirable. I'm not arguing the math is absolutely 1:1 in price increase/decrease.

Its very easy to zoom in on one portion of a zero sum game and view it as non-zero. If costs are externalized outside the scale you're considering then it can in fact seem magical, but at the end of the day everything is connected.



Homeowners know this statement is not true.

If your neighbor's house goes up in price, yours is likely to go up too, all else being equal.

-

Economic interactions can create new (emergent) value, not just reshuffle existing value.

Adam Smith's recognition of this fact is what gave us the current western economies, where even poor people are relatively wealthy, compared to back in his day.

Adam Smith illustrated this 'emergent value' with his pin factory example: One person working alone might make 20 pins per day. But when ten people specialize and collaborate, they could produce 48,000 pins daily - not by using more resources, but through smarter organization. This 240x productivity gain created entirely new value without taking from anyone else.

* Wealth Of Nations, Adam Smith, 1776 (original) , pin factory example happens to be Book 1 Chapter 1; a digitized version of a 1902 reprint can be found at : https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Wealth_of_Nations/Book_I/...



> Homeowners know this statement is not true.

> If your neighbor's house goes up in price, yours is likely to go up too, all else being equal.

Sure, if you're zoomed into a neighborhood scale. That wasn't my argument though, scale matters.

If your neighborhood sees an increase in value one across town could pretty easily see theirs go down. If your city goes up because it became more desirable for any number of reasons, other cities must be less desirable and seeing values go down.

We don't have unlimited demand for real estate. Buying real estate mostly in debt buffers the zero sum game somewhat, we have a finite pool of buyers but they aren't directly limited by a finite pool of money.

Edit because I forgot Adam Smith. He wrote of a fictional past and a fictional vision for the future. His examples are fine in theory but they weren't rooted in fact.



Ah, I think the pin factory was a place Adam Smith actually visited back in the day.

But... you have me curious now.

Does this mean you reject capitalism as a system?

And Karl Marx actually I think made similar observations, just came to his own slightly different conclusions. So I'm guessing you're not exactly going to be someone who identifies as socialist either.

Can you tell me if you come from some sort of interesting social/economic/political background? I'm fascinated!



Hah, okay well let's see where this goes!

I do actually support capitalism, though my opinion is that I only really support it in theory and that the few decades I've been alive have had too much market intervention to really be considered capitalism.

I generally would trust a free market to optimize well enough, much like I would trust "the mob" in a democracy to decide its own fate well enough.

I fall very must on the side of individual liberty. That means people should be able to do whatever they want as long as it doesn't impede other's rights to do the same. It also means, though, trusting that the outcome of such a system is going to be roughly optimized and should nearly always be better than a centrally planned solution.

In the context of housing prices, neighborhoods or cities rising and falling, etc I see that as a good thing and as a sign that markets are reflecting general sentiment among consumers. We learn from why we think one market is now more favorable and respond by shifting other markets to better match that demand.

Where Adam Smith really loses me is in monetary policy. Arguments of a world before money looking like someone with bread and in need of chicken wandering around to find someone with chicken and needing bread is just ridiculous. Societies without money, or with a very loose concept of money, were likely to be much smaller groups of people (think the Dunbar number) that worked to take care of each other. You may have had someone that made bread for the community and you just went and got some when you needed it. Everything didn't revolve around IOU transactions among unfamiliar parties because you were familiar. Money is way Kore useful as a medium when you don't really know or don't really trust the other party.



The point I'm making is that it never stops being positive-sum. It remains true that it's better for everyone if everyone works together. If you halt international trade, everyone will be poorer.


There is presumably still a limit though. Resources can only be optimized so much, innovation and cooperation helps but that would cap out at some point.


We are escaping this zero-sum game with innovation. We are finding replacements for expensive materials or figure out how to use less of them. Innovation and knowledge are compounding: a bit more knowledge today means a bit more knowledge a year from now, and then a bit more knowledge a year later etc..


We're escaping it for a while. Innovation can't make scarce resources magically infinite.

We can absolutely find ways to optimize resources we already have and find new uses for resources, but we can't make resources out of thin air.



Innovation can totally do it.. We are escaping the finiteness of oil and gas with wind and solar power.


No, we're replacing finite oil and gas with other finite resources. Sun and wind require hardware to be converted into usable energy, that requires finite materials.

Sun and wind also require massive energy storage solutions to replace the ease of storing energy in the form of oil. Again that energy storage requires finite materials to make, maintain, and replace as they degrade.



Let's not confuse domains: while economics isn't (necessarily) zero sum, geopolitics (in terms of influence or territory) is. US policy has nothing to do with these two facts.


Yes, when you look purely at geopolitics in terms of influence or territory, then that's zero sum. But even when leaving economics out of the equation, which I find questionable, there are plenty of other aspects of politics that are not zero sum. For instance: climate politics, pandemic control, arms race prevention.


I don't disagree, but they all unfortunately take a backseat to geopolitics. When it comes to the behavior of nations, the playground politics of bully and victim has more explanatory power than all the high talk of the UN.


But is that really true? I wasn't talking specifically about the UN, but if you take a look at nations across the globe, also historically, is the behaviour of nations primarily ruled by zero-sum bully and victim politics, or by nash equilibria, i.e. compromises where both parties benefit? I would say that nations that are at war or threatening each other with war are in the minority, globally.


Hmmm, you raise an interesting question. I'm no game theorist, but are bully/victim dynamics and Nash equilibria necessarily mutually exclusive? What I'm getting at is: the threat of force determines every other player's optimal strategy, with a fight always being the last resort for everyone involved.

Under such conditions, Adam giving the bully his lunch money, Bob his homework, and Charlie his lunch may be the Nash equilbrium—that is, until Dave (who knows kung fu) moves to the neighborhood.



Two critical items who give away the total compromise of the administration.

During the conference Trump was asked when did he talk to Putin last time and said "a couple of days ago". No official communication was made about that. I am not referring to the initial call mentioned a few weeks ago.

A TASS reporter got into the Oval Office, and was kicked out when this was flagged by other members of the press. The normal accredited journalists can't easily get into the Oval Office, there is a much more rigorous process for that.

Somebody from the current US Administration, wanted this prearranged ambush, to be broadcast live to Russian audiences.



Not just the US but a lot of right wing or authoritarian govt in general.

The problem with this zero sum thinking is there is another player outside of the countries if the world; nature itself. Think natural disasters, climate change, diseases. No one can negotiate with it or form alliances. It does not care about our survival. The only choice we have is to come together to make sure we don't get screwed over.



Or... here's another strategy collect as much money as you can for yourself, and maybe your family... making hay while the sun shines... drilling and selling oil and gas... Demolish sanctions, play the stock market, kill off carbon taxes and environmental measures...

Sprinkle a little cryptocurrency backed money laundering here... some tax cuts there... Make sure your closest friends are well taken care of...

Then hole up in armed compounds with plenty of fresh water and air conditioning ... and say "f you" to everyone else.

Now you understand the rationale of America's new ruling class.



Those same people could hold up in a compound today. But they like the nice things, restaurants, social events, football games etc. They better start liking the locked down life now, because if things go bad their 20 security detail won’t protect them later.


> Those same people could hold up in a compound today.

If they did that, you'd be outside being happy or something happy-adjacent.

> if things go bad their 20 security detail won’t protect them later.

That's... very optimistic, to say the least. Historically it's not been the case.



20 armed men vs. their beach houses sinking into the ocean, forest fires burning heir land, hurricanes throwing everything every which way, and potentially nuclear hellfire... IDK, I'm betting on Nature (and man's folly wielding nature) on this round.


Which is why they build massive compounds both onshore and on various islands, and acquire the means to move between them unimpeded.

I don’t know if they’ve considered all the logistics but they do rather seem to be at the point where society’s ability to either ignore or impede them is to be done away with.



> means to move between them unimpeded

Which means are these?



> That's... very optimistic, to say the least. Historically it's not been the case.

if things go bad, what is the dork zuckerberg going to pay his burly security force in?

facebook stock? dollars?

not exactly useful



Zuckerberg will pay his burly security force by providing a better future for the security force’s family. Like fresh water and golf courses. Security forces will not leave the compound at the end of their shift-they will live there with their families.

(Edit fixed a typo in a word. Sorry I am on mobile)



OK but why should the compound be run by Zuck, and not e.g. the security force? Why not cut out the middleman?


Well, I am not an expert in governance. I just offered an example to how security forces would be compensated when there is no currency. One could imagine multiple layers of security forces... or some resources under the direct control of Zuckerberg and his direct reports, etc.... Granted, it would be a more dangerous and less fun world for Zuckerberg to live in, but I answered a hypothetical question.


> if things go bad, what is the dork zuckerberg going to pay his burly security force in?

Same as every other autocrat: food, housing, not getting shot yourself.

> not exactly useful

And yet it usually works.



Billionaire bunkers are just billionaire tombs - the only reason billionaires are in charge is the very society they plan to hide from in their bunkers. They have plans for bomb collars, but someone has to maintain them and they could deactivate them, and if your bodyguards want you dead then you're dead.


It doesn't have to be literal bunkers. Just look at the structure of your average "third world" city -- glass towers and luxury condos ringed by miles of shanty towns and slums -- and then a barrier and villas and luxury estates out in the countryside.

This is, in fact, how the end of the western Roman empire looked. No bang, just a long series of whimpers as the elite retreated to armed estates with private armies, taxes stopped being collected, overall trade declined, cities declined, and the agrarian peasantry became bound to lords and estates out of need of protection, etc. etc.

When civic institutions and the taxes that support them are openly attacked and predated upon, weakened and then combined with environmental, disease, or security crisis, one needn't think hard to picture the kind of eventual world that results.



Come together as what? What does this Beatles-era sentiment entail specifically?


Territorial disputes, when the negotiation terms involve only territorial changes is a zero-sum game. It stops being a zero-sum game once you add more terms.

A good example of an effective peace treaty was the Camp David accords that put an end to the Yom Kippur war of 1973. That used interest based bargaining instead of distributive bargaining.

The outcome that Russia is interested in this conflict is:

- annexing territory (Crimea, Donetsk, Luhansk, etc)

- help Ukraine facilitate the international recognition of that annexation

- Ukraine should not join NATO (this makes another invasion viable in the future)

In this deal, Ukraine gets:

- a ceasefire

- some peacekeeping help

These terms are pretty mediocre for Ukraine. This administration seems to be inclined to think that's the best Ukraine can get and they should take the offer to prevent further losses.

Oblasts like Crimea, Donetsk, Luhansk, etc. have a high percentage of ethnic Russians living there. That would remain a barrier for Ukraine to achieve peace even if Russians retreat to pre-2014 borders. Nobody knows exactly what percentage of Russians live there because the last census was long time ago.



This stopped being a territorial dispute long ago.

Russia is only interested in a ceasefire as a pause before occupying most of Ukraine.

Not a single time Russia has even hinted to accepting presence of any sort of third party force in Ukraine for peacekeeping.



Russia just wants to retreat to pre-1922 borders.


Including the baltic states and Poland.


I'm afraid that Putin's only option left is to escape forward.

Have you heard about "Eurasianism"? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasianism https://www.jstor.org/stable/4400555

Alexander Dugin? https://engelsbergideas.com/essays/aleksandr-dugin-vladimir-...

And please, don't forget China and the ideology if Tianxia (天下) and the revisionism on the 100 year humiliation (百年国耻).



Imperialism and expansionism is often rooted in the idea that the peoples of different countries and their respective governments have different merit or value, and one should rule over the other.

Once you start talking about hierarchies among nations and ethnicities, you are starting to establish connections with other concepts that relate to one type of people being exceptional and entitled to rule over others: nationalism and racism.

Imperialism, nationalism and racism are deeply interconnected: if all peoples had similar value or merit there should be no need to change borders because what's outside your borders is similar to what's inside your borders.

The way imperialists talk by highlighting how exceptional your nation and people are or can be, and contrasting against other nations and peoples. And how expanding and ruling others would further improve things.



That would not be a barrier for peace in Ukraine. The war is not between Russians and Ukrainians, but Russia and Ukraine - in fact, that area voted for Zelenskyy. [1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Ukrainian_presidential_el...



Reportedly they voted for him, because he was an actor who played good guys, so people expected him to stay away from big politics.


No, where are you getting this from? His value proposal was that he was a) an outsider in politics, b) russian speaking ukranian. He was elected on on the platform of reducing corruption and negotiating the end to the Donbas conflict.


As a rumor. I admit my knowledge about it fragmentary at best.


Electing a president on the promise that he would stay out of politics. Ha!

Idk if he came up all on his own with the idea of becoming president by first playing one on TV, but I've got to admit it's absolutely brilliant.

The logic seems to be that if he's played good guys on TV, it means he already knows what common decency looks like to regular people, unlike the hardline nomenklatura gangsters who live by their own sort of thieves' honor.

Fascinating approach, and one common to East European worldviews: "these people are evil because they don't know how to be good". It's a supremely compassionate view, even if it's proven more than a little counterproductive over and over.



Do you think people expected Ronald Reagan to "stay away from big politics"?


> A good example of an effective peace treaty was the Camp David accords that put an end to the Yom Kippur war of 1973

You ignore the fact that in Begin and Sadat, Carter had parties on both sides very willing to sign a permanent peace deal. With Sadat even sending multiple proposals to the US & Israel prior to the 1973 war [0]. While Sadat & Begin are no saints, the incumbent and entrenched wartime leader in Golda Meir had to be thrown to the cribs for peace to come to fruition, something that the Trump Admin now seems to demand of Zelensky.

[0] https://www.jstor.org/stable/30036402



Every peace negotiation process can be messy. But in the end they found a compromise that both parties were content with and have had peace for decades. That's to me a good ending.


But they are not demanding that of Putin.

What stops Putin coming back in 5 years - as he did in 2022 after the 2014 invaison?



>[0]

This is a common take, but a pretty dishonest one (by the article author of course). It ignores the Egyptian conditions (accepting a withdrawal _in advance_, but negotiating peace afterward), the Israeli reply (offer to unilaterally withdraw from the Canal - set to December 1973 following Israeli elections), and the Egyptian need to fight to 'restore their honour' (as Sadat's wife stated).

Zelensky is no saint (the press ignores his flaws), but actually all parties to the conflict are rather close. The one remaining issue is guarantees to Ukraine (a very reasonable demand), and if Putin finally bends on that an accord will come very quickly.



Trump and Vance also emphasized that Ukraine’s very weak, on camera, and then Trump spent a very weird amount of time taking about how tough Hunter Biden’s laptop was for Vladimir Putin, or something, which he just brought up out of nowhere.

I think it’s a safe assumption their deal sucks.

[edit] I don’t care about downvotes but if anyone downvoted because they think I made this up… watch the video.



My interpretation is that this conversation had many layers. One of such layers was that the Trump team claimed Zelenskyy campaigned for the opposition, Kamala Harris.

And one of the objectives of this whole situation was to frame the discussion as a humiliation ritual or character destruction to show what happens when you are not aligned to deter others from doing the same in the future. Shaming individuals who are not aligned is a recurring theme in rallies. e.g.: "Do you see this? Do you want to be seen treated like this? don't campaign for our opposition".



Yes this episode about Putin and Biden was bizarre. The world was watching how Trump was arguing for sympathy for Putin, e.g. quoting Trump: 'Putin went through a hell of a lot with me ... it was a Democrat scam ... and he had to go through that, and he did go through that'.


Well it's not totally out of nowhere.

Trump got impeached for asking Zelensky to fabricate evidence against Biden by threatening to withhold US support.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_impeachment_of_Donald_Tr...

> The inquiry reported that Trump withheld military aid[a] and an invitation to the White House from Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelenskyy in order to influence Ukraine to announce an investigation into Trump's political opponent Joe Biden, and to promote a discredited conspiracy theory that Ukraine– not Russia– was behind interference in the 2016 presidential election.



- some peacekeeping help

Ukraine wouldn't even get much of that: this was Zelensky's point, the deal lacked any safety guarantees from the US.



There is no such deal on the table. The meeting was for a minerals deal. All the other stuff was press questions about the future of the relationship.


The U.S. pulling back from policing the world is good for everyone except the europeans who were free-riding on the american military budget. How many deaths and trillions of dollars of waste resulted from liberal internationalism in the 20th and early 21st century? Vietnam, Korea, Iraq? The Iraq War should have discredited the whole project and resulted in throwing the “promoting democracy” folks into gulags. But they regrouped masterfully.


I think American involvement in Korea is a huge positive for Korea and Koreans.


The reality of the matter is that world was going that way anyway, as a result of weakness and mistakes past admins couldn't remedy (including Trump's).

The Russian army is IMHO not anywhere near collapse, it's suffering many casualties in a useless war (for Russia), but ultimately they have x4 people and industrial advantage (!). Trump is being very crass, but any US admin would seek to close this up since simply put Ukr is losing - yet Putin cannot take Kyiv either. What's left is everyone wasting a lot of blood for a some land in Donbass.

The pressure is applied too much on Ukraine though - Putin needs to made to climb down a bit, which is difficult given his advances but maybe doable (I think a threat of unilateral EU forces deployment could do it).



Yes, exactly, and that's the one huge issue with overt Machiavellianism as a strategy.

The big question I've been asking myself for a while now is, why isn't that plainly obvious to everyone in the US? Why isn't it plainly obvious to Trump himself and to his fans?

I think the reason is American Exceptionalism, and the cultural power it has in the US.

If you start from the premise that you play in a completely different league than everyone else, there isn't much to gain from building cooperative structures.

Interestingly, I remember even Peter Thiel saying in a podcast I listened to many years ago that he thought American Exceptionalism was the biggest cultural weakness in the US.



We need to level-set the reality here.

The lines on the map in the Ukraine war do not change in Ukraine's favor unless one or both of the following happen: 1) The United States gets directly involved, and/or 2) strategic weapons are used. The Europeans are not going to be willing to sacrifice their vast social programs for a massive defense build up. I think everyone realizes this, and I think the recent election results in multiple countries there make this point.

You are complaining, I think, about the style here. An argument in the Oval Office. Well, the United States is the main reason that Russia, after its disastrous and frankly juvenile attempt at an invasion, hasn't been able to gain additional territory after the war went into the defensive. Let me repeat that: The United States is the reason this war is still on-going. And as a result of this fact, The United States is the one that gets to dictate terms.



>>The Europeans are not going to be willing to sacrifice their vast social programs for a massive defense build up.

I think you might be very surprised about that, countries on the eastern end of the EU look ready to make that trade without hesitation, as they were invaded by Russia in the past themselves and can understand the risks. Poland is already at 5% GDP spending on defence, and by all indications that number will only grow. That's war-like levels of spending.



> countries on the eastern end of the EU look ready to make that trade without hesitation

I don't think so, there already are populist opposition parties in most of these countries that want 1. their country to be more pro-RU 2. to keep the welfare state for their populist supporters going



As someone who is from one of those countries - I don't see that at all. In fact I'd say that the national mood is such that if we were attacked the nation would overwhelmingly support going to war with Russia with or without NATO support.


>with or without NATO support.

That's the rub, isn't it. The bluster about willingness to face Moscow in a war is all because of Article V and the assumption that the Americans will come and participate in a nuclear exchange.



Yes, the US gets to try to force a Ukrainian surrender, we're all complaining that's a grossly immoral use of power. I don't think the Ukrainians are going to go along with it yet.


The Ukrainian terms are "all of the land back plus Crimea".

Do you understand that this does not happen without the following: massive American mobilization, 2/75 or the whole of the Ranger Battalions jumping, all US Armor units deploying to Eastern Europe, all of 4th, 5th, 6th, and honestly 7th fleet re-deploying to the Med for support operations. A massive amount of U.S. casualties.

Is this doable? No doubt. I am out of the Army, but a lot of my boys are still in, and they would love to do a peer fight instead of whatever it was we did in Afghanistan.

But I will be the adult here and point out that this is stupid.



What Ukraine needs and wants is a mechanism of a security guarantee that actually works (whether it's foreign troops stabilizing the eastern areas forever or get back enough nukes to keep Russia away). This is a life-or-death question to Ukraine because without plausible and enforceable security there will not be a Ukraine.

Ukraine can certainly give up their now rump states of Donetsk/Lugansk plus Crimea if they were getting something like that in exchange. But until there is even a remote possibility for such security all they have is their terms of getting all their land back. If Ukraine now agreed to "peace" where they give up the land to stop the war then they would have to deal even further in order to gain enough security to prevent the next war from ever happening.



>This is a life-or-death question to Ukraine

Then why has Ukraine not lowered the conscription age?



Not enough guns etc. to make use of all the people.


So they decided to give the guns they do have to the 45 year olds?


1. Conscription starts at 25, not 45. (Even 25 is a lowering, it used to be 27).

2. So what? 30-45 is where their population peaks; massive dip right in the 18-30 range: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Ukraine#/media...



1. Yes I know, the average age of the Ukrainian conscript is 45, which is why I referenced that number.

2. The “so what” is that it’s pretty hard to argue that the war is an existential event if you are not drafting the portion of the population best able to make war (young men).



1. Sources vary from 40-45, but also mode not mean; population demographics makes mode go like that.

2. 25 is drafting young men; given where their shortages are there just isn't a benefit to reducing this to 18.



I still don't get it.

Usually you only go up the age-brackets when you are more and more desperate, for, you know, obvious reasons. Ukraine is doing it in reverse.



Ukraine is desperate. It's (currently) a war of attrition, it keeps going until one side suffers too much and can't replace stuff. Each side has constantly shifting limiting factors.

This is also why we've seen multiple headlines about Russia running out of stuff: they did run out of some things, then shifted to other stuff and ran out of that, then shifted to other stuff… — Ukraine has a shortage of both guns and young people right now.



I don't agree how you would need so many forces or have many casualties given Russia is struggling right now even with Ukranians.

A no fly-zone alone would greatly diminish Russian capabilites, of which the West could easily do given the dire state of the Russian Air Force and their AAD. After that it's just a point it's a just mopping up any artillery duels and then letting the Ukranians advance in.



I know that it feels like the military situation is like that. In reality Russia is much weaker than people think. Three years of war will do that to a country.

All that is needed is sanctions and enough resources for Ukraine to defend itself. And the military intelligence as a force multiplier.

Thats exactly what we have been providing. And it was working. Russian inflation is a 20%+. They are running out of soviet era equipment. They are running out of easily conscriptable men. All of this is documented using open sources.

All that was needed was time. Time for Russia to implode.

But democracy is a fickle thing, and Putin was counting on this. America will have to live with this period of infamy for a long time. And the world will suffer the consequences.



Since the war began I've been hearing both that Russia is weak and about to collapse, and also that if the United States doesn't directly intervene the Russians will drive tanks into Berlin by Christmas. If they are as weak as you say they are, and I'm inclined to agree, then Europe can handle this, yes?


I never said they were pushovers. Just that they were weaker than people thought.

It is clear that Europe would have more difficulty going it alone, since it does not dispose of the intelligence assets that the US has. Spy satellites, SIGINT planes, logistics, etc. Having to go it alone would clearly also impact the morale and thus the political will. But if Putin would decide to invade for example Poland, there is no doubt how he would fare.

But from an industrial and economics point of view there is no comparing. Contrary to what mr Trump has been saying, Europe has paid for more than half of the expenses so far. The overall defense budget of Europe was 217B$ in 2019 and has been steadily increasing to 258B$ in 2021 [1]. For 2024 it is at 326B$ [2]

Compare that with Russia that had a 184B$ budget this year [3]. And that is whilst being on a war footing.

Also. Let's not forget that the US, together with the EU (and Russia) offered security guarantees to Ukraine, in return for them giving their nukes to Russia (since that was making everyone anxious). Our support for them is not some sort of "gift" out of the goodness of our hearts. It is a solemn promise that we made, in return for our peace of mind. Surely the US is not the sort of country that does not honor it's commitments, but backs down when the going gets tough?

[1] : https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/EUU/eur...

[2] : https://eda.europa.eu/news-and-events/news/2024/12/04/eu-def...

[3] : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_highest...



You mean a memo, with no enforcement mechanism and no treaty stipulations. There were no guarantees involved. Everyone understood this at the time but for whatever reason that particular piece of paper comes up time and again and it gets equated with actual binding treaties. It was not.

I understand what you’re saying but appeals about “solemn promise[s]” comes across as emotional blackmail and, for Americans at least, doesn’t have the same rhetorical weight anymore.



> All that is needed is sanctions and enough resources for Ukraine to defend itself.

Whatever makes you think Russia won't drop a nuke?

Edit: Since people seem confused - I mean on Ukraine. Not on the US.



Any single force that drops a nuke today [1] will get retaliated by _all_ the other nuclear powers, even allied ones, at once.

Why? Because that will be the only, short moment, where each other will have the single opportunity to:

1/ affirm they are able and disciplined to use it (credibility),

2/ disarm the offender (own security)

3/ reinstate the balance of mutual dissuasion (global security)

Playing it diplomatic would be a hint of either submission, fear, or incapacity to act against the offender - which none of the nuclear power would want to give.

And however strong, a country can defend against one strategic attack, not against a multisided one.

[1] doesn't matter what the target is: as soon as it's another country, you're toast.



You're saying you believe the response to Russia dropping a nuke on Ukraine would itself be nuclear in nature? There's no way anyone would do that, it would trigger a nuclear WWIII. No nuclear power (Russia or the others) would just sit by and let a nuke get dropped on their own head. They would immediately escalate back.


That’s exactly the doctrine in mutual dissuasion: offensive use of a nuclear weapon breaks the statu quo, where the equilibrium is only ensured if no one uses it.

The first that breaks the statu quo is not a reliable power anymore in this equilibrium and must then be disarmed.

Multilateral escalation ensues as a logic step. There’s no WWIII because this happens and is « settled » in a matter of a few hours.

Don’t want it to happen? Don’t ever use a nuclear weapon. Simple as that.



I still don't follow why the first response has to be nuclear. You could respond conventionally, and if another nuke gets used 1-2 more times, then escalate. You can get the point across without actually responding in kind the first time.


Because it’s a matter of both time (if you don’t react definitely, that means that you may have the weapons but not the discipline to use it, so no credibility), and deterrence (conventional destruction is not a deterrent in this case, and you will only refrain from using your nukes if your are confident that the response will be more nukes towards you - in which case, your initial military objective is void, because the consequence of your action is that you don’t exist anymore).


I'm sorry, I still don't follow. Both of those just sound incorrect on their face.

> if you don’t react definitely, that means that you may have the weapons but not the discipline to use it, so no credibility

You can react "definitely" with conventional weapons. I don't get it. If for some reason you really think they won't get the message that your threat is credible, you could even run a nuclear test somewhere. I see no reason why you have to perform a nuclear attack here.

> conventional destruction is not a deterrent in this case

Sure it is. Destroying/disabling your enemy's nuclear facilities would jeopardize their security, no matter how it's done -- which is absolutely a deterrent. If anything, doing so with conventional weapons should make your enemy worry more, not less.

> and you will only refrain from using your nukes if your are confident that the response will be more nukes towards you - in which case, your initial military objective is void, because the consequence of your action is that you don’t exist anymore

I don't understand this logic at all.



> I see no reason why you have to perform a nuclear attack here.

You reason like a person here, not as a state.

It’s not a matter of life and death for a few single individuals in a triangle. It is of millions of individuals at once, and whole countries.

You do not want to leave the option of a potential other nuclear attack, the scale of the damage is nothing comparable. You do not want the statu quo to be broken, to have been broken. The fact is was shows that the state in front of you (which triggered the initial nuke) effectively lost its sound mind. There is a single solution to that, however brutal it is. And that’s the perspective of this single solution that is at the core of the deterrence: if you shoot, you have the absolute guarantee that you’ll be dead in return. So you don’t shoot.

If there is no such guarantee of retaliation, you have no incentive not to use it.



> It’s not a matter of life and death for a few single individuals in a triangle. It is of millions of individuals at once, and whole countries.

OK, I think this is why we disagree -- because this isn't the scenario I was positing. I was thinking of a case where a "small" (tactical) nuke would get dropped during battle on military forces, to get them to stop fighting. Not a strategic nuke in a population center actually trying to kill millions of people. Those will provoke very different responses in my mind, and I don't think the strategic case is likely. The tactical case is what I'm not so sure Russia will shy away from.



Indeed, we see it differently.

I believe they will shy away.

It’s been made very clear to them by the OTAN (https://www.nato.int/cps/fr/natohq/topics_192648.htm?selecte... ) that it was the red line before a « fundamentally change the nature of the conflict ». That’s the diplomatic way to say: you want to nuke? Just try it, something might happen to you, fast.

China also discouraged Russia to use it, even small ones.

The OTAN capacity may seem reduced without the USA, but escalation is very much more likely since Europeans realize/accept that Russia only speaks/understands « strong language ». They got the memo several times from the US that appeasement seems not to be a working response at this time.



> It’s been made very clear to them by the OTAN that it was the red line before a «fundamentally change the nature of the conflict».

"Fundamental change in the nature of the conflict" sounds to me more like "you will now be fighting NATO", not "NATO will immediately retaliate with its own nuclear weapons." And even if they did mean what you're saying, I don't see NATO or any member following through with this.

To be clear, I don't think anyone's use of nuclear weapons is likely. I'm just saying that if Russia ends up in a situation where its only avenue for "winning" ends up being the use of nuclear weapons, I wouldn't be surprised if it actually uses one.



Note that NATO talks about the « nature », not the « scope » or region of the conflict.

I don’t think nuclear is likely either. Because of the deterrence.

But again, if Russia thinks its only way of winning is firing a nuke, I do believe they will not have the time to be disappointed about their miscalculation.

Because the retaliation is a no-brainer (and again, the scenarios have been discussed and examined for decades, and the procedures are all ready to run).

It will not be about only Russia/Ukraine or Russia/NATO afterwise but about the whole world doctrine on nuclear arsenals and their use.



If we're scared of that why don't the US surrender.

If that's the fundamental issue, everyone needs nukes, every small country.

You don't want that. Living in a small Scandinavian country, I.do think we should at least discuss it now. We can't win any war, but we could ensure nobody else can.



Then China and India would stop buying Russian oil which would bankrupt Russia in a few months.


They already did, about a month ago.


Russia may well, though so far their nuclear posture has been all talk and not much to back it up.

Ukraine is already asking what they gave up their nukes for.

If I was Polish, I'd want a nuclear deterrent.

If I was Canadian or Danish or Panamanian, given what Trump has said, I'd also be seeing if nukes could be developed.



On Ukraine? Or the US?

Either way - I’m pretty sure they want Ukraine and then there’s mutually assured destruction.



Whatever makes you think they're able to drop a nuke? They have tried to threaten with that by running trials and the tally is two out of three times there was a catastrophic failure, of which one failure was in the silo itself.


This would be a problem only if there's shortage of nukes.


Russians are scared a nuke might turn out a dud.


Because they don't want to start a nuclear war. It's really as straightforward as that. If we assume they are willing to go for a nuclear exchange then it's a different kind of conversation, but no military expert considers this a likely scenario.

But even Russians indicate that their mid range ballistic missiles don't need nuclear wareheads to cause untold destruction - it was Putin who said that even without nukes their new missiles can level a city. He seems pretty confident in that, despite western intelligence indicating that the missiles are most likely a bluff as they are barely operational.



> Because they don't want to start a nuclear war.

How would dropping a nuke on Ukraine start a nuclear war? Nobody is going to drop a nuke back on them.



"Nobody is going to drop a nuke back on them."

That's not what military experts are saying. If the nuclear fallout reached NATO countries NATO policy would require a "proportional" response, which again, military experts suggest would be a small scale nuclear strike on a Russian facility of proportional impact. The big question then is what would happen next - either both sides cool down and see where this is going, or Russia starts attacking targets within NATO at which point we're at full WW3 level. The "nobody is going to drop a nuke back" is either extremely optimistic or extremely naive.



Keep in mind article 5 says "react as it deems necessary".

> will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary

https://www.nato.int/cps/ie/natohq/topics_110496.htm

If Poland triggers Article 5, just because fallout came to its borders, other members are free to send them iodine tablets and lead tents, rather than starting WW3.

It's not a start nuclear Armageddon article.



Again, the point is - at that point we're guessing. If Poland gets radioactive fallout on its terittory we don't know how exactly NATO would choose to react.

>>It's not a start nuclear Armageddon article.

I didn't say it was - but Russia "dropping a nuke" brings us closer to the possibility of nuclear war, not futher away from it. And according to people who are actually working with/for NATO, military generals in eastern european countries, it is not completely unlikely that NATO would decide that a strike into Russia(nuclear or not) wouldn't be off the cards if Russian nuclear strike on Ukraine brought fallout into NATO countries - and if such a strike was conducted, we don't know how that ends.



Sure, we don't know but we can guess.

While Poland can trigger Article 5, and current US admin will most likely tell them to shove it, maybe deploy some forces there. US weakening ties with EU is going to make nuclear war less likely.

Even if the next US president was very gung ho about it, the fact that Trump got elected again means the US isn't a stable partner. You don't want to enter a ten years war where every 4 years your ally might just decide to leave you hanging.



>Sure, we don't know but we can guess.

you really wanna weigh your odds of nuclear devastation on a guess?

>US weakening ties with EU is going to make nuclear war less likely.

other non-EU countries are already producing Nukes as preparation. I'm unsure about that.



> you really wanna weigh your odds of nuclear devastation on a guess?

No. But my point is you are oversimplifying it. Article 5 isn't a go to war button.

If Poland was to consider it an attack, that's not important. The question is would other members consider it an attack. To that the answer would more likely to be no.

I don't know of an adjacent country going to war because wind blew the fallout/chems its way.

> other non-EU countries are already producing Nukes as preparation. I'm unsure about that.

It could be US divestment leads to lower chance of WW3 in 5-20 years, but greater chance of WW3 in 20+ years.



>>I don't know of an adjacent country going to war because wind blew the fallout/chems its way.

You remind me of a semi-famous study that the American army did at one point. They wanted to estimate the risk of accidental detonation of a nuclear weapon, and concluded that the risk is zero because it never happened so far.



> They wanted to estimate the risk of accidental detonation of a nuclear weapon, and concluded that the risk is zero because it never happened so far.

Given it didn't happen so far, I'd say they were right on the money.

While mishandling and accidents did happen, the number of failsafes guarantees you have to purposefully activate it. Most nuclear weapons nowadays just don't have a way to reach criticality outside of nano-second controlled timing array.



> military experts suggest would be a small scale nuclear strike on a Russian facility of proportional impact

You could attack those facilities with conventional weapons too. What would be the point of using nukes to achieve the same purpose? All it would do is to make it more likely they'd escalate back.



on the contrary, even China would retaliate. It's the american equivalent of going into a texas bar and shooting a clip. You are now a proven reckless danger to everyone else and they will retaliate at once in your direction, regardless of if you were being stupid or had a specific target.

They do that because the alternative is a shootout at everone and many people in the bar will die. No single person/country is going to take those odds in an era where there are thousands of nuclear warheads now.



Yes. Because resorting to nuclear weaponry is very specific.

Doing so, you break the statu quo on mutual dissuasion, and not one nuclear power wants that.

If one country drops a nuclear bomb (especially after a long escalation as we are in), other nuclear powers will _have to_ reinstate the previous dissuasion statu quo, as well as assert their status of equal nuclear powers.

And there's a single path to that: radically disarm the offender country, as soon as possible. There's indeed a risk of global nuclear war, but the most probable risk is the annihilation of the offender country + a few other casualities.

The scale of time in this matter is not in days, it's in a few hours at most: it's already been scripted in procedures for years, rehearsed, and it's already been shared among nuclear powers. If we're still able to discuss it, it's because of this doctrine of mutual dissuasion precisely.



Because China won't let them.


And what about the longer term? No one wants to commit to this fight, how much worse is it next time? What lesson does Putin learn when he can take Ukraine? Because even if he only takes part of it on paper, he’ll end up with the whole lot. That’s what the mineral “deal” with the US really is - it’s a bribe: “when we’re in control, you’ll still get the minerals”.

How stable will the world be when Russia wins, Putin is able to rebuild, and then they want somewhere else?

You tell me, which fight is more winnable? This one or the next one?



You're completely overstating this.

So far in 3 years of war the US has, for something like <10% of their military budget, destroyed a huge chunk of Russian military capabilities, without having to set a single US boot on the ground or losing a single US citizen. On purely selfish terms, that's an undeniably great investment.

But it's not only that. The US has an immense amount of soft power that it squanders if it completely mistreats, and even blackmails, its own allies — which it is doing right now — to appease hostile powers like Russia.

So with that being said:

It's ridiculous to jump to "we're gonna have to deploy x y and z batallions" when the US administration is not even doing the BARE MINIMUM, many tiers below that: they are publicly praising Putin and berating Zelensky. So it's pointless to talk as if this was about direct military intervention when in fact even soft diplomacy is going to the way of appeasement.



Part of the issue with tech people discussing this is that they assume there is a tech solution to "human meat sacks are needed in order to control a geography". There isn't, at least not yet or anytime soon.


Or Putin could just withdraw his (and the North Korean) troops? He's so trustworthy peacekeepers won't be needed, right?


we all remember how trustworthy his words were right before the full scale invasion: UK intelligence services warned in public about Russian tanks, supplies etc amassing near the Ukrainian border, warning about what looks like preparations for invasion.

What did the Russians claim?

"Nyet invasion, just some push-ups next to border!"



This isn’t true.


>massive American mobilization, 2/75 or the whole of the Ranger Battalions jumping, all US Armor units deploying to Eastern Europe, all of 4th, 5th, 6th, and honestly 7th fleet re-deploying to the Med for support operations. A massive amount of U.S. casualties.

Then China will step in and WW3 will begin.



Glad we’re all on the same page, then.


You did not take note that the Russian military is collapsing: they need north corean soldiers to come to keep up. They need Iranian drones to keep up.

Russia has NO defensive capacity left on either other borders, neither internally.

Putin, as well as Trump play it like they have a strong hand because they know they don’t really have it and they are scared others would notice it.



It is not immoral, it is amoral. There is no moral in geopolitics and international relations.

The US are not doing anything new. It's just that Trump's style is very "in your face" and that the public have been fed so much BS about "good", "moral", "democracy", etc in international relations that they actually believe it.



I don't buy the fully amorale narrative ever.

It's just as irrelevant as saying that state of individual cells is something you should ignore when establishing diagnostics of a herd.

There's a difference between low pondering and null influence within equations. And if the complexity of the phenomenon exceeds what we can forecast relevantly with equations, then pretending that we know which factor will have significant role all along the development of the situation and which are meaningless is not acting with much sagacity.



It's not a narrative. It's really a statement of fact and very relevant. That's how it works: countries act to further their interests whatever the "moral" might be.

The US, like other countries, have sacrificed tens of thousands of people or more, even entire countries, in pursuit of interests amd broader objectives, for instance.

What is irrelevant is indeed moral.



OK, if we can dictate terms, let's tell both sides to be at peace... and while we're at it, Russia should join NATO, and let's get a side of Freedom Fries. ;-)


I understand that you are joking, but part of the problem with how people talk about this issue is that they are either not serious (you) or are imagining that this conflict is similar to things they have seen in a Marvel comic book movie (most of the rest of this thread).


I feel like that's how most people talk about most issues these days. I blame the comic book movies. Alongside a host of other innocuous looking factors that add up to the total disempowerment of the individual. The hell can any of us do, other than...?


U.S. should have responded to the letter that Russian president sent to U.S. president in 1991 suggesting that Russia should join NATO in the future.

U.S. ignored that suggestion.

And when almost 9 years later Putin pitched the same idea again - he was left ignored, again.

EU and U.S. reap what they sawed.



Russia's descent into its current state is not because it was denied NATO membership, to even suggest so is nonsensical.


It's exactly for those reasons. Just google Putin's speech in Munich's security conference. First, note in what year it has happened and then just listen to his speech, it isn't even long.


I will listen to it, but first tell me - are you suggesting that Russia is an autocratic oligarchy where any dissent is immediately crushed because Russia wasn't allowed into NATO? If it was in NATO, it would suddenly have fair democratic elections?


No, I'm not suggesting that at all, but oligarchy and lack of democracy mostly hurts the country in internal politics, not external. The war would just not have happened. As for how bad the oligarchy in Russia is now / would be (if it joined NATO) - it's no one's business but the Russians'.


The thing is - you might be right. Or you might be completely wrong - these discussions happened almost 30 years ago - even if Russia was allowed into NATO when it was originally planned, its descent into autocracy might have caused it to be kicked out, or it might have left on its own accord. Or it might have decided to attack Ukraine anyway, even while itself still in NATO. I wouldn't be so hasty to declare that if only Russia was let into NATO 30 years ago this war wouldn't have happened - we don't know.


I'm sorry, but that makes no sense to me. An attack has to have very strong reasons, as any attack is very costly, no oligarch would spend money for no reason.

So they would seek some gain then, right?

What could an oligarch possibly gain from starting a war with an allied neighboring country?

And why doesn't U.S. attack other NATO members now?

Surely it has (and had) as much oligarchy (if not more) as Russia has. (I hope you won't argue it doesn't? Since even something as ridiculous as the fact of having lobbying being absolutely legal - just can't coexist with the lack of oligarchs quite by nature/definition).



> And why doesn't U.S. attack other NATO members now?

They are. Commercially first. Through technology second (the dependance of the world upon US software and hardware technology is the perfect kill switch - and the scale and pace at which we are going to need to get out of it is immense now that it is intimately tied to our professional and personal lives... but we have no choice).

And they might go further if those firsts are not enough.



Sounds like fair play to me. Where's the border between oligarchs attacking other countries and economical concurrence between different countries?


It is not a matter of concurrence. The European market is going to be a closed, dead market to US technology.

We in Europe would never have invested so massively to rely on USSR or post-2008 Russia software/hardware tech, for obvious reasons

But we did on USA tech, for obvious reasons too (common history and values, democracies, multiple war allies, cooperation, and... US used to be the beacon of progress and freedom), that have all been brutally thrown out.

So why would we now?



"An attack has to have very strong reasons, as any attack is very costly, no oligarch would spend money for no reason."

So why did this current attack start? It's been 3 years and there's a dozen theories as to why exactly, there is no "strong reason" anywhere to be seen.

"What could an oligarch possibly gain from starting a war with an allied neighboring country?"

Again, why is Russia in Ukraine then? They went from being brethren to portraying Ukrainians as fascist scum that need to be exterminated. Why is that?

"And why doesn't U.S. attack other NATO members now?"

Because it has more to gain by not doing so.

Again - I really can't see how you can confidently say that if only Russia was let into NATO 30 years ago this current situation wouldn't have happened.



> So why did this current attack start? It's been 3 years and there's a dozen theories as to why exactly, there is no "strong reason" anywhere to be seen. > Again, why is Russia in Ukraine then?

The strong reason for this attack was Russia's security concerns got ignored and stepped on by a military alliance (NATO).

The military alliance that claims Russia to be their most probable enemy and thus a military alliance AGAINST Russia.

The military alliance first broke some spoken agreement with Russian of non-expansion of said military alliance. Then did that again and again to the point where NATO wanted to advance in its expansion so much far as to the neighboring country to Russia.

This is simply not acceptable for Russia, so it had to prevent that expansion, which it did. It could only be done by force, if the other side refused to drop possibilities of joining NATO. They didn't drop them - they got invaded for demilitarization. They resist - they die. The ones who don't resist (civilians) - aren't targeted at all (however, in a war there are always casualties among civilians).

> They went from being brethren to portraying Ukrainians as fascist scum that need to be exterminated. Why is that?

Because that's what Ukrainian officials policy was towards Russian natives living on their land and daring to speak their native Russian language.

> I really can't see how you can confidently say that if only Russia was let into NATO 30 years ago this current situation wouldn't have happened.

How is that not clear? If Russia would be part of NATO - it would have 0 security concerns of NATO expanding up to its borders. If there would be no security concerns - it wouldn't start the special operation, there simply would be no reason to, as Ukraine would probably in that case be a part of NATO as well (as well as Belarus and probably Kazakhstan and some other ex-USSR *stans)! Just that simple.



> The strong reason for this attack was Russia's security concerns got ignored and stepped on by a military alliance (NATO).

If it were a simple individual somehow escalating to nation state level, I could understand them being initially forced to use deception, but not so for an entity that is already a nation state. Especially not so for a nuclear nation state!

Right before the outbreak of the full scale war (ignoring ~2014), Western intelligence services observed troops, tanks, military materiel amassing on the Russian / Ukranian border. In an attempt to dissuade Russia from invading the UK intelligence services decided to predict Russia's invasion publicly.

Russia repeatedly claimed "Nyet, nyet, no invasion, just some push-ups next to border!"

If a nuclear power were acting on existential security concerns, the last thing it would do is hide the connection to security concerns and pretend just doing some push-ups on border.

To me this invalidates this whole theory of yours and imcritic



> The strong reason for this attack was Russia's security concerns got ignored and stepped on by a military alliance (NATO).

If it were a simple individual somehow escalating to nation state level, I could understand them being initially forced to use deception, but not so for an entity that is already a nation state. Especially not so for a nuclear nation state!

Right before the outbreak of the full scale war (ignoring ~2014), Western intelligence services observed troops, tanks, military materiel amassing on the Russian / Ukranian border. In an attempt to dissuade Russia from invading the UK intelligence services decided to predict Russia's invasion publicly.

Russia repeatedly claimed "Nyet, nyet, no invasion, just some push-ups next to border!"

If a nuclear power were acting on existential security concerns, the last thing it would do is hide the connection to security concerns and pretend just doing sonme push-ups on border.

To me this invalidates this whole theory of yours and imcritic



That's a convenient narrative but it overlooks the desire to prevent normalization of hostile takeovers.

Russia tried to pretend that its satellite states and NATO were similar arrangements (with the latter thus being under US control), because that would make it seem like they were on even ground.

To the extent it ends up being true, it will be due to Russia's influence (conveniently allied with others' authoritarian tendencies).



>>This is simply not acceptable for Russia, so it had to prevent that expansion, which it did. It could only be done by force, if the other side refused to drop possibilities of joining NATO

Russia can't and shouldn't have any say in what pact or alliance a sovereign country on their border wants to join. They have no right to. And well done preventing NATO expansion - where now thanks to their actions NATO did expand right to their border. Really 4-dimensional chess play guys.

>>The ones who don't resist (civilians) - aren't targeted at all

Yes I'm sure all these bombs falling on Ukrainian hospitals are just targeting errors.

And Bucha was what? An accident?



The strong reason for this attack was Russia's security concerns got ignored and stepped on by a military alliance (NATO).

NATO is a defensive pact. Putin invaded Ukraine because he wants their port, arable land, and because he wants to go down in history as "reuniting" the Russian empire. Also, Russia has wanted to exterminate the Ukrainian cultural identity, which they've tried to do since before the Soviet Union:

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/russias-i...

Putin's whining about NATO is pure bullshit propaganda. Just like his claims of Nazis in Ukraine. It's all fiction, where he writes Russia as the victim.



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>>Russia defends Russian nationals on Ukraine from nazis.

Russia loves using this logic, which is completely bonkers. Just try to think from time to time?



No personal attacks, please, regardless of how wrong someone is or you feel they are.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html



I've just used the exact same wording they used against me few comments earlier - I should have known better though. Apologies.


There are Russian nationals that live in almost all the countries all around the world. So that's not bonkers, the logic is sound.

Now what's important is when some region has mere fractures of a percent vs when its something like 25%. If your country has 25% Russians and you oppress them - I think Russia has obligation to defend them.



If it was NATO DEFENDING ITSELF

That's exactly what it is and I have no idea what sort of insane, convoluted logic you use to come up with any other idea.

but then it turns out that its arms can be used OUTSIDE of that block

Ohhhh, I see. You believe that defending from an invading force means that you can't attack anything beyond the border? So Russia could just build an ammunition factory right across the border and Ukraine is somehow morally bound not to attack it? Completely insane.



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> A defensive pact provides weapons to a country defending itself. What is so hard to understand?

Whom was Ukraine defending by killing people in its own Donbass and Lugansk regions? Surely not the people living there, as the bullets and rockets were flying towards them from Ukrainian soldiers.

> Not to mention that actual NATO countries are afraid that Putin won't stop on Ukraine

It looks like it's better if they in fact fear that. Less wars that way. If only they stayed neutral, not anti-Russia. But no, they all wanted to provoke the bear for some reason.

Well, hear it roar now.

> Dude you need to lay off Russian propaganda for a minute. But you know what really happens? Russia forcibly issuing native Ukrainians with Russian passports to say "look these are russian citizens now, we need to defend them!" and kidnapping Ukrainian children to forcibly integrate them into Russian society. Not to mention all of the murder and rape, but that's standard fare for the Russian army.

Dude, you need to lay off Ukrainian propaganda for a minute. But you know what really happens? Russia gives money, homes and jobs to the people that voluntarily agree to relocate to it. No one is forces to. And there are lots of reports from those people being thankful to Russia and condemning Kyiv and Zelensky, because what in fact happened is that it was Kyiv that either targeted those civilians or used them as a shield (lots of videos of Ukrainian combatants taking positions right next to houses full of civilians).

How can anyone forcibly issue a passport to someone? Just try to think from time to time. Children get evacuated to safe zones. Of course the safes zones are in Russia now, but no one is held prisoner/captive - they are free to move wherever they like whenever they like. You just painted a humanitarian mission as terrorists kidnapping children. That's just disgusting.

> Yes, Azov batallions were a huge problem in Ukraine.....and they got completely eliminated and people put behind bars before the original 2014 invasion.

Lol what? Who eliminated them? Could you give a few links to the news where Ukrainian officials imprisoned any Azov combatants for their nazism and nazist swastika tattoos?

As far as I know - they were mostly killed in battles between 2014 and now by separatists and Russians. Ukraine never reprimanded any of their nazi battalions for wearing swastikas. They never prohibited their 'trezubets' (trident) SS nazi symbol of that battalion and nazi 'black sun' symbol (that is just quite common among nazis, not especially Ukrainian ones).



Please don't cross into personal attack, no matter how wrong someone else is or you feel they are. Also, if you could please avoid name-calling and flamebait in your posts here, we'd appreciate it - you've been doing quite a bit of that as well, unfortunately.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html



My apologies, I got carried away in the heat of the discussion.


It does happen easily, I know. I appreciate the reply!


  How can anyone forcibly issue a passport to someone?
By denying medical care and access to essential medications to anyone who does not hold a Russian passport.


>>But no, they all wanted to provoke the bear for some reason.

Maybe the bear should stay within its borders. No one provoked Russia to do anything.

>>How can anyone forcibly issue a passport to someone? Just try to think from time to time.

You deny them any services until they apply for a Russian passport as again, we know happened.

>>Russia gives money, homes and jobs to the people that voluntarily agree to relocate to it. No one is forces to. And there are lots of reports from those people being thankful to Russia and condemning Kyiv and Zelensk

You're free to gaslight yourself into believing this along with the rest of complete lunacy in your post.

>>Children get evacuated to safe zones.

If you think this is what happens you're drinking the Russian cool aid swallowing the straw along with it.



Could you please stop posting in the flamewar style like this (in addition to not posting personal attacks, as I've asked elsewhere - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43224164)?

It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html



The only difference would be that then NATO member Russia would be annexing other NATO members, which would be even more awkward.


You make no sense: why would Russia do it then?

It does now for the very clear reasons:

1. NATO, while being openly hostile towards Russia (you may read the current NATO's doctrine where Russia is named as the #1 probable enemy of NATO), attempted to expand to Ukraine, which is just not acceptable (to Russia) at all.

2. Russian nationals (and Russian speaking Ukrainian nationals) got oppressed in Ukraine, but that happened mostly as a result of the division of country into two parts where one was pro-Russian and the other was pro-West (EU, NATO).

I don't think the 2nd reason would even occur, since if Russia was in NATO - it would rather even seek Ukraine then joining it too. There would be no 'maidans' (coups) in Ukraine, there would be no division of the country and thus the oppression of Russian nationals (and Russian speaking Ukrainian nationals) just wouldn't have taken place then.

I think the conflicts concerning Russia then would rather shift towards Middle East (like Turkey having some beef with Russia over who supports whom in Iran, Palestine, Israel and so on) and maybe towards China/India.



> NATO, while being hostile towards Russia attempted to expand to Ukraine, which is just not acceptable at all.

That literally didn't happen. Ukraine and Georgia sought NATI membership, and in the 2008 NATO summit were (largely at Russia’s urging) rebuffed from being given Membership Action Plans; Russia immediately invaded Georgia, and Ukraine abandoned pursuit of NATO membership.

Then, in 2014, the Ukrainian people threw out the pro-Russian leadership that had come to power in the interim. Russia invaded large swathes of the country and, after that, Ukraine’s government again started seeking NATO membership.

There were no approaches by either side being made before the invasion. Pro-Russian propagandists like to pretend the 2022 escalation was the initial Russian invasion, ignoring most of the time the war has been being fought, so that they can blame the war starting on Ukraine’s response to the invasion by which Russia actually started the war.



I think you forgot that part where Putin wants to establish the Russian empire again.


Nobody gave the slightest fuck about Russia. Even the annexation of Crimea and the proxy war in the Donbas was mostly ignored.

There was ZERO chance of Ukraine joining NATO. Do you really think that Hungary, Germany, Slovakia..... would vote for Ukraine membership while there are still disputes in the Donbas and about Crimea?

@2) Sure, and Hitler also only saved the Sudetendeutschen.....

Putin himself said 2002 that he would have no problems with Ukraine joining NATO: “I am absolutely convinced that Ukraine will not shy away from the processes of expanding interaction with NATO and the Western allies as a whole. Ukraine has its own relations with NATO; there is the Ukraine-NATO Council. At the end of the day the decision [on Ukraine joining NATO] is to be made by NATO and Ukraine. It is a matter for those two partners.”

Considering that Trump now, all but disbanded NATO there should be no more reason for further Russian attacks, no?

But really, just read and watch Russian media, listen to their politicians. The aggressive imperial aim is very open, transparent and also accepted by the people.



> Nobody gave the slightest fuck about Russia.

It really is tiring listening to the Russian apologetics coming from other posters in this thread.

"Russia felt threatened"

No. Nobody wants to invade Russia.

The deal since the end of the cold war has been this: Russia can do whatever the hell it likes inside its own borders. Its oligarchs with Putin at the front can rob and pillage the country to their hearts content. Putin can use his loyal FSB to suppress the opposition, rig elections, and dominate the domestic media and brainwash his population to believe whatever he want them to believe. The rest of the world will do no more about this than hand out tiny wrist slaps, while holding their noses and trading with Russia. They kept their seat in the UN security council. They were invited into G7. They were treated as an equal to larger, richer, liberal, democracies.

The only reason there is war in Ukraine is because this incredibly generous deal was not enough for Putin and his ilk, they wanted more. More influence, more power, more vassals. They want to restore the mythical glory of the Russian empire, or the Soviet empire, or both. They want all the territories that Russia has ever held dominion over. Getting control over Ukraine would have given that dream a big territory, population, and economical boost.



> "Russia felt threatened"

Are you Russian top military executive or a president of Russia?

No? Then don't speak what Russia did or did not feel.

> No. Nobody wants to invade Russia.

Then don't name Russia as the most probable enemy in your militaristic charts in your military alliance that keeps on expanding beyond reasonable limits.

And don't expand your military alliance that close to Russia's borders.

> The deal since the end of the cold war has been this: Russia can do whatever the hell it likes inside its own borders.

The other side of the deal was NATO not getting any expansions packs. But oh, shoot, it just slipped and happened to expand to... how many countries since Soviet Union got dissolved? ah?

Destroying Soviet Union was not enough for the West and so it wants a piece of Russia now? If you think so - then come and die in Ukraine, you are welcome there.



Here is Putin 2002:

“I am absolutely convinced that Ukraine will not shy away from the processes of expanding interaction with NATO and the Western allies as a whole. Ukraine has its own relations with NATO; there is the Ukraine-NATO Council. At the end of the day the decision [on Ukraine joining NATO] is to be made by NATO and Ukraine. It is a matter for those two partners.”

Why should nations be beholden to verbal agreements that were never ratified by their elected officials, between parties that didn't exist any more in the case of the Warshaw pact and whose legal successor nation official stated they had no problem with it.

Thats silly.

Should NATO have never had any talks with Russia about a possible NATO membership because of that verbal agreement with the leader of the Warshaw Pact Gorbachev?



That was in 2002, when it looked like after years of cold war U.S. and Russia can finally become good allies. That was before U.S. along with a group of other (mostly NATO) countries invaded Iraq in 2003 without any mandate in U.N. and which Russia has opposed to and before the invasion of Libya in 2011, before U.S. carried out Arab Spring in 2010-2012 and before U.S. carried out colour revolutions, especially Rose Revolution in Georgia in 2003 and... Orange Revolution in Ukraine in 2004.

It is not a secret at all that U.S. carried those out and then it became quite clear that U.S. installs marionette regimes here and there and one of the places was... Ukraine.

Right after all those Russo-American relations going up, up and up merely some years ago.

Russia didn't like being stabbed in the back at all.



You can't really bring non binding, non serious agreements that were never put in writing or ratified and that all parties declared no longer relevant back from the dead and feign moral outrage. That's ridiculous.


What does "legally binding" do good at all? There are no other laws other than the rule of the strength.

U.S. was strong for a long time. It did whatever it liked.

Now Russia restored some of its strength to the point it can show others that sometimes you have to listen to when a bear warns you (quite calmly and nicely first).



For one, if it is ratified in a democratic nation that means that the people had a say in it through their elected representatives.

That way the other party knows that this agreement has some backing and staying power.

Not some dude spouting some ideas to counterparts during very very turbulent times.



Who decides if a nation is democratic or not?

Many people (even Americans) claim U.S. is not a democracy. Every country has corruption to some degree. The only backing and staying power there is - is the force a country has and its willingness to use it to defend something.



Imagine the paradox: holding the fate of the world in your hands, but still feeling under threat from a military alliance like NATO


Easily imaginable: every country with big enough nuclear arsenal could be viewed as a country holding the fate of the world in its hands.

But since there can be multiple such countries at the same time and since no one has stopped developing arms/tech even further - I wouldn't call it a paradox when one nuclear country feels threatened by another group of both nuclear and non-nuclear countries coming closer and closer to its borders.



The difference between a rational person and a narcissist is this: one recognizes the sufficiency of world-destroying power, the other will always demand more, regardless of the absurdity.


NATO is the "Keep Russia At Bay Club". Why on Earth do you think it would welcome Russia into it!? That's like the Neighbourhood Watch letting the local criminal gangs join.

There's a reason Sweden and Finland joined NATO recently.



EU reaps what the U.S. sawed.


> The United States is the reason this war is still on-going.

In what way? Because it is providing assistance to Ukraine to defend itself against an aggressor?



Because if it provided the resources that were requested from the start Russian offensive would have been pushed out of the country 2 years ago. America(and most European countries too, to be fair) sat on their hands for ages before approving actual military aid. Famous thing about Germany sending helmets while other countries were sending tanks etc.

But also because if JD Vance wasn't such insufferable prick without an ounce of tact there's a good chance the agreement yesterday would have been signed. That is not Ukrainian fault, it's 100% the fault of current American administration.



"Mr. Trump is unfit for our nation's highest office."

   - J. D. Vance
"Trump's biggest failure as a political leader is that he sees the worst in people, and he encourages the worst in people. "

  - J. D. Vance


Letting your interests always go last, and letting people who depend on you and have worked against you(remember Zelenski campaigned against Trump), demand things and reproach you in public, is not tact. The one who lacked tact was Zelenski, not Vance. As Trump said, "You're in no position to dictate what we're gonna feel."

As for aid, the arrogance in assuming the aid was mandatory and failing to give what you want the way you want is wrong and evil, does not endear people to aid you. And besides, any delays in aid had a much lesser effect than the EU countries buying russian gas at exorbitant prices. The sanctions imposed were immediately sabotaged by buying russian gas.



As for aid, the arrogance in assuming the aid was mandatory and failing to give what you want the way you want is wrong and evil,

This is insane. He's been constantly begging and thanking the US for support for years. At no point has he even come close to "assuming the aid was mandatory".

To claim that Zelenski lacked tact while Vance did not is similarly nuts. Anyone who watched the video would understand that.



Some of the spending actually is mandatory, because it was passed and apportioned by Congress (but may not have been dispersed yet), and I think Zelensky can be forgiven for having some level of expectations on more aid given the bilateral security pact Biden signed last July and the overall glowing reception he gets in the press.


>>The one who lacked tact was Zelenski, not Vance

Hard disagree. The way he treated Zelenskyy who was their guest is unacceptable and completely tactless. He acted as if he was scolding Zelenskyy. The entire comment from Trump "look he dressed up!" was juvenile, showing zero respect. But then he called him a dictator not long ago so I don't know what I expected.

>>The sanctions imposed were immediately sabotaged by buying russian gas.

Because it wasn't possible for EU to stop buying it on a dime, not without letting its citizens freeze and go without electricity. You can argue that well, they should have gone cold if they care about it so much - I'd argue that the EU countries have stopped buying Russian gas and resources as soon as they possibly could.

>As for aid, the arrogance in assuming the aid was mandatory

That's not what I said - I said if the aid was provided when it was requested the war would have ended already.



> "look he dressed up!" was juvenile

It's worse than that.

Zelenskyy famously stopped wearing civilian suits, and is always wearing military-style clothes in public appearances to symbolise how he's defending his nation in a time of war. It's a reminder to other leaders that it's not just another trade deal, that this is a real shooting war and people are dying.

Trump hates this, and thinks it's disrespectful that Zelenskyy doesn't wear a suit when he comes to the US on official visits.

Trump generally can't stomach a real fight, and Zelenskyy can... visibly.

Hence the reaction from Trump. Zelenskyy made him feel shame through his mere dress, his shirt, so he had to do something or say something to feel in control again, to feel powerful.



>Zelenskyy famously stopped wearing civilian suits, and is always wearing military-style clothes in public appearances to symbolise how he's defending his nation in a time of war. It's a reminder to other leaders that it's not just another trade deal, that this is a real shooting war and people are dying.

>Trump hates this, and thinks it's disrespectful that Zelenskyy doesn't wear a suit when he comes to the US on official visits.

That's why they invited dress uniforms...the ones with the jackets and ties.



This is like… inviting a Mandalorian and then insisting he take his helmet off.

“You have to follow the dress code, I don’t care about your sacred oath” — said by someone who doesn’t believe in oaths.



That's tame, suits are almost global dress code in management and business circles with a few exceptions, and violation of dress code is indecent.


Say that to Churchill... :D

No, there's definitely no "dress code" in those circles.

A dress code is specifically something you impose to lower-ranking ones. That's why Trump did not like it, and why this journalist seemed upset: they couldn't bear that Zelenski was not submitting to their, very closed-minded WASP dress code for underlings.

When you're the head of state, or in power circles, there's something else, that's called a _dress standing_, which is different and opens a much wider area of possibilities.

And by that standard, boy, did Zelensky outfit outranked everyone else's in the office!



What about Churchill? His style looks like a slightly dated imperial dress code, because he was a fan of the British Empire.


When he came to the White House during WWII? Was in soldier outfit.


Oh wow, Churchill really was wearing a uniform when he visited the white house.

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205140998



Yeah, no. Nothing in that discussion was tactful on America's side. This is oligarch's trying to gaslight, lie, and extort a country while getting cozy with an enemy they fought for decades. And their remarks were absolutely juvenile. THat's not how we treat allies (or at worst, ,enemy of an enemy).


You know Europe has funded about 2/3rds of the war costs?


You're asserting things you don't know.


The war has been in the defensive for well over a year. Yes, I do know this.

Former 11A, btw.



> Former 11A, btw

You say that like it's a relevant qualification.

I would also like to mention that quoting past military service in a discussion on geopolitics is boot as fuck. So is referring to your trade by it's ID number and not just it's name.

So, y'know, okay boot.



When did language devolve to "boot" being an adjective? What does that even mean?


It’s actually a noun, in this case, being used as a pejorative to imply “infantrymen are stupid”.


That would be incorrect. It refers to the embarassing shit people in the military do, typically right out of basic (boot camp). Everyone is a little bit boot in the beginning, you just learn to cut it out.

And no, the infantry aren't stupid. Thinking that qualifying as an Infantry Officer means your qualified to run the entire war is stupid.



You’re right, one should not need extensive ground combat experience or PhD level fluency on this topic to be equipped to identify that the war is in the defensive (my initial claim, still true), and changing the equilibrium requires a massive escalation from the United States (also still true). You can continue with your name calling, if you like.


Maritime power vs continental power [0]. Trump sees the world from a continental power viewpoint. In the recent past the West used to see, and operate, the world from maritime power point of view. Incidentally, China used to think like a maritime power as well - until Xi became president.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yf8mCThmsGc



> Incidentally, China used to think like a maritime power as well - until Xi became president.

Historically, China is probably the single least ocean-focused country of any country to have a coast.



China trades with almost every country in the world-that is maritime power. Since Xi became president China is acting more like a continental power-looking at land expansion at the cost of trade. Granted China did not attack Taiwan yet. Hopefully Xi sees this folly and does not attack Taiwan.


> China trades with almost every country in the world-that is maritime power.

No, that has absolutely nothing to do with "maritime power".



Except when it comes to the South China Sea.


How do they ship goods worldwide?


What about their vast fishing and shipping fleets?


> I am ashamed of the US.

Don't be. I'm neither American nor European, and from my vantage point this is far less America's (US) fault than it is Western Europe's. US has been asking Europe to increase defense spending for years now, and at the beginning of the war it was below 2% (Germany was spending 1.25% in 2018). Trump said this very publicly in during his first term, and he was ignored and mostly ridiculed. Same thing with the Gazprom deal.

Europe's defence should not be entirely on the American tax payer.



This is a simplistic, even childlike, view of the relationship between the US and Europe. The situation is the way it is because the US wanted it like that. Statesman like Dean Acheson and George Marshall designed it this way. To throw 75 years of relative peace and stability away because you feel it’s unfair? A world that revolves around American military, economic and cultural power, and uses the U.S. dollar as its reserve currency unfair? It galls me that small, arrogant, petty people with no notion of history are throwing all this away because they have a schoolyard understanding of fair and unfair.


Crimea was 10 years ago now. And Obama at that time didn't intervene, in fact he called on Europe to spend more on defense. Europe is much bigger (in population) and richer than Russia. This is a different situation than the cold war.


> This is a simplistic, even childlike, view of the relationship between the US and Europe. The situation is the way it is because the US wanted it...

People who do know history would tell you that you don't get peace by dismantling industrial and military capacity. To blame this on "because the US wanted it that way" is just naive. The US might have wanted it that way, but so what? It happened because it was easier to sell domestically compared to allocating hundreds of billions on say, 5th gen fighters.



Yeah, I am sure Poland would have been SUPER HAPPY if Germany would have invested more in military in the late 90s. France as well. /s


> It galls me that small, arrogant, petty people with no notion of history are throwing all this away because they have a schoolyard understanding of fair and unfair.

Or maybe your ivory tower understanding simply ignores the realities of the working class people who voted for Trump to do away with these policies.



I've got to imagine this forum is officially compromised at this point with these style of posts on here?

I'm shocked by the level of pro-Russia content coming from you and other posters. I hope it's just brigading. I'm devastated if any meaningful amount of Americans feel this way. It's a fall from grace I didn't think I'd see in such real time.



The fact that you interpret any pushback to your opinion as pro-Russia is one of the main problems in modern discourse. You're so ideologically captured that everything has become binary.


Quite the opposite. I've just come to the realization that discourse with individuals arguing in bad faith is more harmful to society than any fleeting chance I may have of convincing the individual their path is the wrong one.


Doubtful. Public discourse online is often not about convincing interlocuters, but mostly about whoever is watching/reading.


> Europe's defence should not be entirely on the American tax payer

True. However.

The US has wanted to play a major role in Europe for 80 years because it meant they controlled the narrative. This, co-incidentally was favourable to European countries because they could spend their money elsewhere.

Over the past few years the US has decided that it would prefer to play in the Pacific rather than Europe and so has been edging away.

It's true that Western Europe has been slow to respond, but it's also important to acknowledge that Trump just changed the pace of this redirection and so it's not entirely on one or the other side.



> he was ignored and mostly ridiculed

Trump disagrees with you:

> So we raised [the defense spending of NATO members by] $130 billion almost immediately. We had a meeting with all of the [NATO] countries. I said, “You got to pay.” We got $130 billion more — more.

https://trumpwhitehouse.archives.gov/briefings-statements/re...



You fell for the propaganda. The US is not spending for Ukraine the way Trump is trying to make it seem. Sending old equipment that is expensive to dispose of helps the US two-fold.

And yes, fighting indirectly with Russia is also helping the US two-fold. Or, was until Trump decided to wake up as a sleeper agent .



> ending old equipment that is expensive to dispose of helps the US two-fold.

You fell for this propaganda. That equipment is "old" doesn't mean it isn't actively being used. The US military uses and maintains old equipment where it still makes sense, and where there is no viable replacement.



I have made the same argument long before Trump was in the picture. Stop associating everything with Trump or propaganda - people can hold opinions which don't agree with yours.


The world _wasn't_ zero sum when we had limitless economic growth. But growth has effectively ended for the majority of people. And resource constraints look they will define the future.

Extracting resources has always been the central tenant of industrial society, and there was always somewhere new to pillage. With literally nowhere on earth left to expand this global juggernaut, it's not clear that our zero sum utopia can continue.

I'm not defending Trump's actions by any means; spitting in the face of your friends is the last thing you want to do when times are lean. But at least this administration sees the writing on the wall: business as usual is dead and we're entering an era of zero sum contraction. Their response is insane but at least they acknowledge the problem (unlike traditional liberals and conservatives who think we can keep tweaking the current system forever)



You realized all the markets have (until very recently) been going up, all the economic indicators showing green, and business was booming. My portfolio was up.

That economic activity is growth. It was still happening. Just the middle class didn't participate like it used to like in the 50s. Because the marginal tax rate back then kept as much wealth from pooling at the top.

Economic inequality is the problem, not lack of growth.



[flagged]



Totally a mischaracterization. On one hand an imperfect crisis response, on the other hand, a brazen, unforced error.


[flagged]



Sure.

Majority of who, exactly? Where is the boundary of the dēmos from whence the word "democracy" comes?

Is it even constant for all things, or should powers of self derermination shift as group sizes change: what power should the people of California and New York have to tell the people of Texas that there are decisions they cannot make? What power should the USA have to tell Russia or Ukraine what to do?

Because the US is a minority of the world. So is the EU. So is China, despite being larger than both combined.

Half the world lives within 3300 km of Mong Khet, Myanmar; should they determine all world rules down to planning permission, or just global matters such as mandatory climate change reaponses and enforcing global treaties?: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valeriepieris_circle



Minorities have the right to make/propose all the rules they want. What I mean is that majorities can’t be forced to comply. That wouldn’t be a democracy. By the way, minorities and majorities are fractal.


So why can a single executive decide to force rules in? Why is an unelected, unvetted team of a few dozen people capable of firing millions of employees? WHy can a court of 9 people not voted in determine the law of the land?

Not really shocked such a take is contradictory in and of itself.



This is the closest I've seen to hate speech without being outright hate speech.


>Allowing minorities to define the agenda, no matter how glamorous it seems, is the path for disaster . It's a really good thing every civil movement, including the civil war itself, disagrees with you. No progressive movement ever suddenly started with a bunch of people changing their mind on a dime withno infuence from the "minorities" first.


Of course, majority is not very cleanly applicable yous politics. Less than half (which according to Mirriam Webster is the definition) of the votes cast in the last election went to Trump/Vance, and with such a poor voter turnout it was even further from a majority. Meanwhile the electoral college is working against the idea.


[flagged]



Famously friendly and cooperative Donald Trump?


He's only friendly to those he wants to persuade.


That may be the narrative that the GOP has sold to the right, but it’s simply not true. Crime is down from what it was decades ago. The US is far from perfect but it’s not the crime ridden hellhole that the right portrays it to be.

I’m also not sure how you think the Trump administration’s actions are addressing this. He pardoned Jan 6th rioters. He’s defunding federal infrastructure.

This is just so blatantly disconnected from what’s happening.



[flagged]



It pays a fair bit in direct costs, it gets multiples back in return by being at the center of many systems.


The EU contributes and has contributed quite a lot more than the US has to Ukraine.

In addition, most US contributions are done in the form of donating surplus/outdated military equipment that was manufactured by the US defence industry decades ago, at a fictional list price.

And yet, way too many Americans seem to think that each billion-dollar contribution the US has done to Ukraine consisted of someone taking that money out of the US treasury now and giving it to Zelensky as a sack of cash or something.

No, the money left the US treasury many years ago, and went to US defence industry. The aid bills also typically contain an agreement for future spending on US defence industry to replace the donated equipment. In each case, the tax money went to US companies in the MIC, and it is quite something to see how so many people on the right wing now thinks this is a bad thing.



[flagged]



Just imagine for a second that your country is being invaded. Just imagine your friends and family are being killed by an invasion. That your whole culture is under threat. Just look at what Russia does with places they invaded and culturally assimilated. Everything you love might be gone if you capitulate.

It’s not that Ukraine doesn’t want peace, but on fair terms, not by giving Russia everything they want. Not by ignoring the sacrifices.

Please read up more on the history of the region and what led up to this war.

A good source is : https://inss.ndu.edu/Publications/View-Publications/Article/...



My country was invaded many times. We have lost some chunk of land which we can't get back unless there is all out war with countless life lost. We are third world country we don't have backing of US to continue a prolonged war.


And the US thinks that’s ok. They want Ukraine to give up the territory Russia took by force. Everyone else wants Russia to respect the agreed upon borders.


Russia is not going to give up that territory. Are europeans to go war with Russia. Unless that happens only ukraines would get slaughtered. While USA and European military industrial complex would profit.


You are advocating for giving in to the bully in the hopes that they will stop bothering you. The reality is that the bully will never stop, Russia’s aim is total annexation of Ukraine. Making peace without proper guarantees would be to ensure more Ukrainian people will die in the future.


For palestine israel is the bully. Are you advocating for continued terrorism in hopes to make israel bend the knee?


I am sorry to hear that and I do feel that.

Ukraine is special because it’s so close to Europe, and many countries on the border feel they could be next (the Baltics, Poland)

The inequality in the world is staggering, and Trumps administration will only make it worse. We need people to come together and help eachother out, and the autocrats and warmongers make this very difficult.



Sorry but europe would be the warmonger here. Trump surprisingly seems to want end war.

If my country started a war with my neighbour, the Europeans, USA would have urged us to stop it and make a peace deal. Would blame us for starting a war on silly issues, our culture etc. The west should do the same make peace not war.



With all respect, this shows a lot of lack of recent history. It was Merkel and other leaders who tried to get closer to Russia, and Russia was part of the NATO accession program up until 2008, when they bombed an apartment complex. It was Obama who after that, tried to reset the relationship. Russia was welcomed in the economic program and many ties were forged so to get closer (like the OSCE) and to prevent what was happening, right now.

When in 2014 Crimea was annexed, this was a clear breach of trust on the side of the Russians, and the deals and cooperation agreements that were made.

Nobody in Europe wants the war, but we all fear that Russia won’t stop at Ukraine. Their policy is very clear.

Now you can argue that Russia seems NATO as a threat, but they could have been part of it.

If you can please read the Russia analysis above, it’s very well researched and shows where Russia coming from, and also possibly how we can move forward.



That is what the rest of the west tried to do with Russia.


Then they should be happy with Trump who also seems to want to end the war. Considering US was always a war machine this change is surprising.


That's exactly the opposite of what the West has been doing to Russia since at least 1993.

The by far most egregious offense having been the utter disrespect shown to the CFE treaty.

Also not a single leader on Ukraine's side (until Trump) but even tried negotiating with Putin beyond Zelensky's 10-point "peace plan". The only exception being Zelensky himself during the Istanbul negotiations. They asked Russia to retreat from Kyiv to "enable" those negotiations and after Russia did so, for yet unknown reason Ukraine withdrew and refused to engage in any further negotiations.



You mean the 60km convoy that stranded without gas because they thought they could refuel in Kyiv?


They've built a pipeline real fast, tho. Couldn't have expected you need to put any fuel into it before something comes out.

At least the riot shields were put to good use, right?



Ukraine wants peace with a security guarantee. US wants ceasefire with no guarantee, allowing Russia to recoup and reinvade in a year or two.


No. The US wants Ukraine to capitulate. If you read some history and learn what happens when a country capitulates to Russia you'd realize that's much, much worse than resisting.


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> Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html



Some games are indeed zero sum, some are positive and some are negative.

You could also see that in a positive light : Europeans might get a better armies / defence in 10 years compared to if the USA continued its past behavior without Trump



The world and human society is not zero sum. The Mercantilist world view is empirically wrong.


Larger armies are negative sum for everyone. Historically, per capita GDP was flat until the 18th century, because wealth was measured in gold and people thought the best way to be rich was to keep robbing and colonizing one another.


I really don't understand this take, any other European country could fund the Ukraine war to continue.

The US no longer wanting to fund someone else's war is about as far from 'forcing' as you can get. Plus it doesn't even sound like we're withdrawing all funding, instead we're attaching a few conditions in hopes to end the killing.



The US is undermining the very institutions it built, like the UN, and the rule based world order.

That’s what the outcry is about. As of today, the US is no longer the leader of the free world.

The economic impact for the US in the long run will be significant. Trust is hard to build but easy to destroy.



The behaviour makes them at best a laughing stock but at worst a liability. Who wants to keep their money in the US anymore? Trump could announce next week he's freezing all European assets to fund his annexation Greenland.


Not just does the US no longer want to support Ukraine, it is basically siding with Russia by not taking a stand and criticising Ukraine. It’s neglecting the interests of it’s ally by only including Russia in negotiations.

On top of it all, it’s extorting Ukraine into giving up it’s minerals while giving no assurances in return.

And finally, most important for long term, it’s a complete policy reversal to its NATO allies, which will have a long term impact on US transatlantic relations for decades to come. Before, US was the only country to invoke Article 5. Now its recognising a weak moments for its allies and is exploiting that opportunity.



It isn't about funding. It's about denigrating our allies and attacking the victim of aggression, while praising our adversaries and aggressors. Realpolitik is (correctly) in vogue as a correction to bad policies, but ideas and justice still matter.


> Realpolitik is (correctly) in vogue as a correction to bad policies, but ideas and justice still matter.

Realpolitik is, first and foremost, about (arguably ruthless) pragmatism. What's going on — the US antagonising all its allies and forging new alliances with unreliable partners —— is not pragmatic in the least.



The US hasn't put as much in compared to Europe as they'd have you believe. Whilst Europe has sent fewer weapons, they've been supporting monetarily. And the US was sending stockpiled weapons, marking them at book value, and then reinvesting that money into US defence firms to buy new weapons.


Also Europe took millions of Ukrainian refugees, and it took the hardest blows from the sanctions against Russia.


And let's remember that most of the Ukrainian refugees have been hosted in Europe [1], something for which I am proud of being European. This has a monetary cost that Trump's administration seems to ignore when they keep saying that the US have spent far more than Europe to help Ukraine.

[1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/1312602/ukrainian-refuge...



War is fought with weapons. If EU cannot provide weapons, Ukraine won't be able to fight the war.


And how does one obtain weapons if a country doesn't just have thousands of tanks they were going to scrap anyway?


Exactly why monetary donation from EU is useless in battle field. Ukr could buy weapons with that money, sure but what if no one is selling?

Without US, EU cannot fulfill Ukrainian needs with their current arsenal.



I don't really understand this take, Russia can just withdraw from Ukraine and end all the killing in the first place.


And Jeff Bezos could make me rich by parting with just one of his many billions. But alas, let's both get back to reality.


Did Jeff Bezos enter your home and annex your attic?


Has nothing to do with it. I wrote my comment to create an equally absurd and meaningless point to illustrate how silly that "the war would end if Russia would leave" mantra is.

Like my comment, it's technically true and completely not worth discussing, because it will never happen.



By that logic, the world should have just given Hitler everything he wanted too, right, because Germany leaving would never happen. The Soviet Union left Afghanistan when the costs got too high. So did the US. Under what basis do you aver that Putin leaving Ukraine can never happen?

There is a legitimate debate as to what cost is worth paying, if any (as well as what cost comes from not doing anything - ask the Baltics), but to present the situation as fait accompli?



His ex-wife did, she's the better human.


Why would they do that? They're winning the war.


The US did nothing but benefit from the war really. So any talk about ending support being in the United States' interest is a serious misreading of the situation.

The US was sending old equipment. To replace it they were and spending money on R&D and manufacturing of current and next-gen equipment for the US military, not Ukraine. The US got to observe and study the use of it's older equipment in an actual land war against a geopolitical adversary. The war has demonstrated US equipment superiority over Russian equipment.

The US did not send any troops, only old equipment and some money.

Regarding "hopes to end the killing". The killing can end today if Putin withdraws. He is the aggressor who attacked without any justification or provocation. If somebody invades your neighbour's apartment and starts looting and hurting them, do you just say "give up, it's easier"?

Some might but those are not people we respect.



The US and the west as a whole are already a very big winner for the war and it was 100% worth the investment. But for how long should it continue? Ignoring Trump's terrible negotiation strategy I still think there's value in some sort of ceasefire. Continuing a brutal stalemate is not something we should take lightly just to burn through a few more Russian tanks. It's mostly just T-60s and cheap Iranian drones left anyway. They've been thoroughly embarrassed.

The history of war is full of unhappy truces and compromise. WW2 type victories are extremely rare and take massive sacrifice.



Of course, but it is extraordinarily optimistic, naive even, to think that freezing the conflict now without any security guarantees for Ukraine is anything but a gift to Russia, who will turn to preparing the next invasion.

And keep in mind, we're not doing the sacrificing. It is Ukraine who is doing the fighting and should be calling the shots here, with our material support since we don't want to send troops (until now).



> freezing the conflict now without any security guarantees for Ukraine

From what I've read I think the only plan put forward is to have Europeans run the DMZ? The US having troops there would probably be a no-go since that's the primary power-conflict (even above NATO). I don't think there's any other option as historically there's always a third party regulating it. Maybe a subset of UN where possibly even China could have troops there.

Not sure what guarantees would exist for breaking the ceasefire though, besides the usual full sanctions/weapons/maybe troops. Who knows what happens now though :/



Why? Some accounts believe Russia will break by the end of this year as its terrible financial situation catches up to it. People are starting to doubt if they can even launch a nuke any more. It seems wise to me to push a bit harder to see if you can tip a military adversary over the edge and force a full capitulation, rather than giving them time to recover.


As long as China supports Russia there is no way Ukraine is going to break Russia. Putin cares nothing about the human cost from his side and it's unlikely Ukraine can have enough of an advantage to be able to push back.

See the "spring offensive".

The reality is more or less a stalemate at this point. While the Trump administration treatment of Zelensky is a disgrace the reality is that some sort of ceasefire around the current borders is going to be the outcome that ends this war. We can work on forcing Russia to withdraw via economic and other pressure after the hot war is over. Just like we broke up the Soviet Union.

This idea of one more year and Russia will break is just a dream with no connection to reality. Putin is going to send a million man to fight with sticks before Russia breaks. And they will.



Do you have any evidence that Russia is open to a ceasefire around the current borders?


Trump is pushing it after having talked to the Russians. I mean I don't have a direct line to Putin but if Russia isn't open to a ceasefire then none of this even matters. The fight between Trump and Zelensky is about Ukraine agreeing to a ceasefire.


Trump also wants to annex Greenland, take over the Panama canal and make Gaza into a beach resort. Also let's not forget when he sent out his son in law for a school project (peace in Isreal) who came back with a detailed plan without ever talking and involving the Palestinians.

The problem with a ceasefire is that Russia has an endless history of accepting negotiations only to use them to get a tactical advantage. It is standard practice for them. So of course Ukraine is very wary unless that can be prevented.



> the reality is that some sort of ceasefire around the current borders is going to be the outcome that ends this war.

No, it won't. With sufficient outside political pressure on Ukraine, it might happen, but (like many ceasefires) it would only be a brief pause, not an end to the war.

> We can work on forcing Russia to withdraw via economic and other pressure after the hot war is over.

Sanctions almost never work without someone actually fighting on the ground. If they are not tipping the balance of an active internal or external conflict, they can be endured basically indefinitely.

(Not that Trump seems inclined to either try to force Putin to withdraw or to maintain sanctions, in any case.)

> Just like we broke up the Soviet Union.

We didn't break up the Soviet Union, the republics of the Soviet Union broke it up, largely because of a crisis of legitimacy resulting from a hardline coup against a mildly reformist leadership. The main immediate US contribution, though, was bogging the USSR down in the long war it fought in Afghanistan by aiding the forces opposing the USSR there, the outgrowth of which was both the disatisfaction that provoked the reform efforts and the strong negative reaction to the subsequent hardline coup, not sanctions imposed without an ongoing armed conflict.



China can only support Russia in some specific, not too invasive ways. If structural points of a country break, there's no support recipe for that.

Financial and economic weaknesses are also working against Putin and his team from _within_ Russia.

> Just like we broke up the Soviet Union.

It was not entirely broken, since we have the living proof of it today in the Kremlin - same operating mode.

> Putin is going to send a million man

Why is he resorting to North Korean soldiers then? (which even then aren't infinite). Obviously, he has a problem at recruiting/training his own. Which puts him at odds with his own population.

So whose soldiers will it be next? China? not likely willing to deal with that. Iran? same. African countries? Not their war, they tell it themselves.

The issue is that Putin has cornered himself and his country, willingly, knowingly, into a no-way-out road. He had other options of both perspective and action.



The word on the street is that he's using North Korean soldiers because he can get them and he prefers that they are killed and not Russians. But he'll send Russians too.

You're applying western thinking here. The same sort of western thinking that thought Putin wouldn't invade Ukraine because what's in it for him or imagine some red lines or whatever. Russians aren't western. They don't think like us. The west always does this.

There isn't such a thing of at odds with his own population in Russia. Again you're applying western thinking to Russians. Check out some Russian jokes.



Logistics is not a matter of culture. When you run out, you run out.


Russia's population is 140 million. They're not going to run out of people. 17% of those or about 24 million are fighting age males (18-44). If you really need to you can definitely recruit 15-60 and woman.

Not sure if this is what you meant by logistics.

If you're thinking about supplying and maintaining their physical presence in Ukraine it doesn't look like that's a problem either.

"As of 2024, Russia produces about 3 million artillery shells a year, nearly three times the quantity from the US and Europe." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_industry_of_Russia

They're also still exporting weapons though significantly less than they used to export.

Maybe they can't sustain 10 years of war with the west continuing or increasing their level of support, assuming Ukraine can, but they are nowhere near being forced to stop [the] war.



> Russia's population is 140 million.

Alledged population. Or are we also to believe their election results?



Population alone and artillery alone are the ingredients of logistics, not logistics itself.

The failure of the initial 3-days invasion was a demonstration that the « great Russian army », even with the support of Wagner and Tchetchenia, was unable to plan, execute and sustain a flash attack.

Yes, they may improve in the meantime. But that takes years of discipline and continuous training. So while that’s an option for them, that’s also a weakness that can be decisive.



Is China supporting Russia? I see opportunistic grabs for cheap oil and gas but nothing more than that. It’s not fixing the rampant inflation and growing budget deficit.

> We can work on forcing Russia to withdraw via economic and other pressure after the hot war is over. Just like we broke up the Soviet Union.

You think Trump plans to maintain sanctions? You sweet summer child.



North Korea is a China agent in this context. China is pretty much supplying all the goods that went away due to western sanctions, everything Russian factories need, and buying all the exports that the west is trying to sanction.

My statement had nothing to do with Trump maintaining sanctions or not. If he doesn't some future administration will. US relations with the Soviets also fluctuated during the cold war.



> North Korea is a China agent in this context.

This simply isn’t true.

> China is pretty much supplying all the goods that went away due to western sanctions

This is not correct. Some countries are being used to bypass sanctions, including China, but this isn’t happening with government support and the extra costs of evading sanctions are putting inflationary pressure on goods in Russia.

> buying all the exports that the west is trying to sanction.

Barring oil and gas, there’s nothing Russia has that China wants. And even then, they don’t have the infrastructure to buy the volumes to replace European purchases, thus the black hole in the Russian budget.



Nothing happens in China without government support. In China you either do what the government wants or you are in jail or dead.

If Xi wanted Russia to stop the war, Russia would stop the war. The war is useful for China because it splinters the west, they get leverage over Russia, and it normalizes the kind of actions that it wants to take in Taiwan.

If China objected to North Korea sending troops to Russia then North Korea would not be sending troops to Russia. Pretty much all of North Korea's trade is with China. For sure North Korea has some degree of independence but sending soldiers to die for Russia is not worth it if it upsets China. This is clearly a nod, nod, wink, wink situation here.

"Most of Russia's exports to China originate from the mining and petrochemicals sectors.[64] More than half of Russia's exports to China come from mineral fuels, oil, and petroleum products (60.7%), followed by wood and wood products (9.4%), non-ferrous metals (9%), fish and seafood (3.5%), and chemical products (3.3%). China is also gradually becoming a major consumer of Russian agricultural products.[24]: 64

The main categories of imports to Russia from China are machinery and equipment (35.9%), clothing (13.7%), chemical products (9.1%), fur and fur products (5.6%), footwear (5.3%), and furniture (3%). Chinese electronics are steadily expanding their presence in Russian.[24]: 64"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%E2%80%93Russia_relations...



There is nothing you just said that contradicts what I wrote.


All those Russia is weak and will self-deafeat is a narrative to make people dont worry too much and do anything


Yeah. And China will also colapse anytime soon, as they say since 90s.

Some discourses are just propaganda. Specially at war time.



Comparing silly “CHINA COLLAPSE IN THREE DAYS” YouTube videos to economic analysis of observed facts, some of which I’ve pointed out, is not really a comparison, is it.


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In the military context, breaking formation and abandoning your post (as you suggest) is a punishable offense, even with death.

By the way, if you’d like to see a real life example of this neighborly coercion you’re so concerned about, Russia is the most guilty party with its blocking units. As a matter of fact, given the tremendous amount of dead on the Russian side, you should be appealing to Putin to stop this, not Ukraine.



A fine attempt to turn things on their head, but again the only one who enables the fighting is Putin's Russia.

The conflict can be stopped right now with loss of territory so long as Ukraine is given trustworthy guarantees that Russia won't invade again as soon as they've licked their wounds a bit. That is the ask, and the only one who can provide that is realistically the United States, or Europe with guaranteed support from the United States.



Russia broke treaty, law, moral foundation and democratic order for a second time in a decade to try and take all of the Ukraine.

You appear to forget history, but plenty of citizens were able to leave through the back door while able-bodied citizens were required to do the only reasonable thing a democracy can do and defend its sovereignty.

First with what they had, then with conservatively provided weapons as other countries tried to figure out if Putin would actually use nukes, and finally with more effective munitions when it was apparent he would not.

No neighbor is locked in, and the US embarrasses itself as it simps for Russia in the UN and parades the president of an invaded democracy around in a jester hat.



The alternative is that Ukraine loses land, US sucks up a bunch of ukrainian resources from what land remains, and their people reach depression level poverties instead. All while probably being at risk of another way in 5 years and Trump help Putin recover faster than Ukraine every could in this situation.

The human cost for this sad excuse of a "peace treaty" will completely decimate Ukraine and simply delay the next attack.



> The border is closed, Ukrainian citizens are being rounded up and forced onto the battlefield.

Welcome to a war, those rights are not free.



We are burning generations of alliances, goodwill, and our own enormously successful system of government for what? Absolutely nothing. Our entire country is being sold out so a few corrupt billionaires can make out like bandits.

This it the end of an 80 year era. The US will never have as much influence and prosperity again.



Maybe I can't expect an answer from you but maybe someone that agree with your comment can clarify for me:

Why did suddenly "end the killing" become a talking point for the people supporting this/Trump? "End the Killing of *american soldiers*(outside US)" seems like an consistent message but when this group didn't give 2 shits about Iraqi, Afgani, Vietnam, Libya, Syria, and even essentially justify warcrimes and killings, how can the movement stay morally consistent to "Oh we are doing this to save Ukrainean life" as a slogan?

"We don't want to spend our money on other nationals, but we are ok in having colonies or natural resource exploitation at your expense" is the only sensible interpretation of current presidents behavior.

A stance that seems pretty aligned with every war since 9/11, just more explicit and any pretense such as "spreading democracy" or "WMD", and less willing to commit (american lives) for profit. Wasn't support for Trump against deepstate and all this "benefiting deepstate at the expense of the common people" wars? Why can't the movement just own up to it all.



I think many were also against those wars. I would prefer much more surgical strikes rather than war, ultimately those special ops were the ones that were successful against those involved in 9/11.

There also was no forced conscription in those. The military members knew what they were getting into and made a choice to sign up anyway. That's no longer the case in Ukraine, the border is closed, citizens cannot leave, they are being rounded up and forced into a few weeks of bootcamp then to the front-lines to die. That's the antithesis of freedom.



Your take would make sense if the world was an excel sheet that needed to be balanced. I think geopolitics are a tad more complex...


Europe doesn’t have the resources in a lot of cases. To start, a lot of what the US gave isn’t cash, it’s old equipment that was in long term storage. You can’t just place an order for 100 infantry fighting vehicles and get them in a month. For other forms of equipment, the US has a ton of industrial capacity that Europe simply can’t make up for.

> it doesn't even sound like we're withdrawing all funding, instead we're attaching a few conditions in hopes to end the killing.

There is currently no funding for Ukraine from the US. Trump has dangled offers of assistance “with conditions” but nothing concrete. Even this minerals deal didn’t actually include any security assistance or funding for weapons.



> The US no longer wanting to fund someone else's war is about as far from 'forcing' as you can get

It _was_ also their war, because it's Europe that's attacked through Ukraine, and... Europe (and Ukraine, actually) used to be allies.

Well, here we are: the USA is _not_ anymore an ally to Europe, and is objectively becoming, as a state, an adversary, so here is the most likely survival plan available to Europe now:

1/ find new partners (Canada/Australia of course; as for the big one, will be India and/or China);

2/ increase its own defence and technologies to be more independent from US ones (will hurt, for sure);

3/ close its market to USA (will hurt heavily on both sides);

4/ not even talking about the cultural reframing that will happen.

It's not a matter of "if the USA doesn't fix its course within 4 years", it's happening now.

And no one wins at this. Certainly not the USA. Trump will be gone and forgotten in a few years. USA will take, at the very best, 40/50 years to fix the damaged trust towards Europe, but also towards any future partner: how do you expect to sincerely partner with a country that behaves so erratically every 4 years, and now even ambushes guest state representatives in front of the media?



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Interesting, I’d like to understand your argument. What exactly are you trying to say? I’d say what you see as kindness and generosity, was not so much that as a tool, to create and maintain an American economy that far outweighs its actual importance. Aid, Commoditised people, Petrodollar, Reserve currency.

One thing, I’d like to understand is do regular Americans think that the country, following an isolationist policy will out compete the rest of the world?



I agree with you. You put on your own oxygen mask before you can help others. The US has debt interest payments of over a trillion dollars a year - totally unacceptable. We can't keep funding a war that can be willingly ended.


When you say "willingly ended" what you really mean is "surrender". Don't mince the words.


1. learn how the deficit works. It's not the same as private interest

2. Learn how we are funding the war. It is helping us instead of costing a bunch of money.



I have a different take on this situation: I have felt for about a decade that it was time for my country (USA) to slowly ease away from being the sole dominate super power and figure out how to live in a multi-polar world. I am not a fan of President Trump but I wish him good luck in moving us in the direction of coexisting with Russia and China because I think it is in the best interests of most people in most countries. I was disappointed by Zelensky yesterday and I don’t believe he acted in the best interests of his people. I like Ukraine, wonderful country to visit and nice friendly people. I would like to visit again when the war has ended.


What I don't understand is that in the 90's, the NATO agreed that it wouldn't expand it's members to border countries of Russia. But the decades after that happened anyway. And Ukraine was the last blow to make Russia snap. And now people are blaming Russia started the war, but isn't that at least a little bit expected when you break an agreement like that?


I know you are sincerely asking this question.

If you are really sincere, I invite you to ponder this video essay by Sarcasmitron. It explains why this familiar talking point has some basis in truth, but doesn't hold up on closer scrutiny.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FVmmASrAL-Q



I don't completely get the conclusion of this video. They say that because Russia messed with the 2016 elections, they pressured the US to send weapons to Ukraine, and that that gave Russia a valid reason to start the war?


my understanding of the video, and after having read the historical book "Not One Inch" by ME Sarotte [1] is that during the numerous meetings between the US and the USSR, over several years, at one (1) time George Baker said the famous "Not One Inch" (which I highly recommend)

Not only was this subsequently retracted, but it was never repeated, and it was not in any of the treaty texts. Russia had essentially lost the cold war, was so near to collapse that it needed billions of dollars from it's previous enemies, and so never asked for any sort of confirmation because they knew they wouldn't get it.

It's a bit like, calling the AT&T hotline 20 times, and when during one conversation the agent tells you by mistake that you can have free internet for life (without written confirmation), upon which you then loudly complain that AT&T is in breach of contract.

As the book and the video also remind people, it's not the US that extended NATO. It's the various countries that spent 40 years behind the iron curtain, that were so eager to join NATO that they essentially forced their way into NATO, against the wishes of the US. And given the various Russian invasions the last 10-15 years, history has more than validated them.

The west tried for years and years to accommodate Russia, and only gave weapons to Ukraine in 2016 because ... in 2014 Russia invaded Ukraine? Let's not forget that in the 90's, Ukraine was the third biggest nuclear power, and gave away it's nuclear weapons to Russia at the behest of the rest of the world (who were afraid of nuclear escalation), but only in return from security guarantees, from Europe, the US and even Russia. This deal was very much not at the initiative of Ukraine.

Supporting Ukraine is not a moral issue. It's a contractual issue. We wanted to reduce nuclear proliferation 35 years ago, and -at the time- were willing to pay the price. It's time to make good on that promise.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_One_Inch



Thanks, I will check it out.

What I also don't understand is that I'm being downvoted just for asking a sincere question. What am I doing wrong?



The problem is it's a point widely pushed by Russian propagandists.

True or not, earnest or not in inquiry, people will reflexively judge it all the same.



Well if you are in war with a country, you should at least try to understanding their perspective from their viewpoint to understand their motivations. If you want to prevent more conflict at least..


The context is that Russia kept expanding for 13 years under the same dictator, and then this time is the straw that broke the camel's back. The trust was broken several times.

I don't really care to understand the mindset of a dictator. They want power, resources,or reputation out of it. There's not a lot of justified reasons to lead an assault that will cost millions of your citizen's lives.



I agree we shouldn't take the mindset of a dictator seriously, but we should take the threat of a superpower seriously. And we should show respect to a superpower as long as it's a superpower, because getting into conflict with a superpower can cause WW3.

I don't mean with that that I fully agree with their standpoint, but that we shouldn't fuck too much with them, because they might fuck with us.



And I rarely see this topic being discussed. Why is that a taboo? That's supicious


Ultimately it's the weakest justification to allow Russia to do what it was always going to do anyway. There's not much to really discuss here unless you thought Russia was a credible place in the last 20 years.


That sounds like a prejudgment. You say Russia would have done this regardless of NATO's actions, but you don't know that. And you're downplaying the importance of NATO's actions and it's influence on Russia's actions.


Russia already shared borders with NATO.

The truth of the matter from Ukraine's perspective is that this never would have happened if Ukraine was a NATO member.

NATO hasn't moved aggressively on Russia.

The motivations for Russia and it's neighbours for their opinions on joining NATO are the same. Russia doesn't invade NATO members. That's why Russia's neighbours want to join and why Russia doesn't want them to.



I think it's because the US did sort of promise to block expansion, but then changed its mind and in now in hindsight it doesn't seem like they managed it very well but don't want to look bad.


The only part of you post that can be steelmanned into what can be considered an argument is "NATO expansion". And that argument falls apart if you actually think and explore it for like 15 minutes. Like, what is NATO and its purpose, how does "expansion" actually work in terms of process, what events took place on the continent between 90s and new NATO members joining, what else could have compelled parties to go through the process and how durable that would be?

And then the rest of your "question" is straight up factually false.



Well if it's so clear to you, why can't you give a straight up argument? People always say things like "explore it for 15 minutes" or "think about it" or whatever. But I think people are just repeating what other people say. And yeah if everyone's opinion is like this, and you explore it for 15 minutes, and you're the kind of person that repeats what everybody says, then I can understand. But then you can't explain why you actually have that opinion.


Eastern Europe rushed towards NATO as soon as the Russian-controlled Eastern Bloc dictatorships crumbled, to secure themselves from falling prey to Russia ever again. Existing NATO members were for a long time very lukewarm about the idea of accepting new members.

The US did not push or expand NATO onto anyone, but Eastern Europe did everything they could to pull NATO towards them to gain additional security against the very same Russia that had just reluctantly agreed to the dismantlement of their dictatorships and removal of their armies from Eastern Europe.

Are you not aware that the Russian-run communist dictatorships were not voluntary, but forced upon Eastern Europe? That's the key to understanding everything.



the problem is that simply asking the question plays into the hands of Putin.

In war, the objective is to get the other party to stop fighting. Either by destroying his means, or by destroying his will. If you can get enough people to believe that a war cannot be won, or that it is not just, then they will stop. And you have won. See Psychological warfare [1]

This is why Putin is menacing with nuclear weapons, even if he knows that he cannot use them. This is why Putin is making statements about Ukraine being a fascist nazi state, that he just had to invade for the good of the planet. This is why reliable / true statistics about macro-economics and battlefield victims have become state secrets.

Every time someone naively, but sincerely, enters in the reasoning of Putin, the public debate is shifted a little bit to his advantage. This is what is referred to as a Useful Idiot [2]. And due to Brandolini's Law, otherwise known as the Bullshit Asymmetry Principle [3] it takes time for people to be educated.

So people get frustrated with having to explain every time. So they just downvoted you. I guess.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_warfare

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandolini%27s_law



So what is your argument, that we should go on fully with the war and send more soldiers to the front? Because we don't want to make any concession with Russia? Because we don't want to sympathize at least a little bit because that would make us "weak"? So we should go on and risk WW3?


"We" (americans) aren't doing anything to help, and are in fact withdrawing support. "We" honestly don't have much say in how the ones who actually fought against our supposed enemies should feel (to reverse a recent quote). Trump is kissing the ring so it's very clear we're already making consessions.

>So we should go on and risk WW3?

Well this is part of why your top comment was unpopular. Ukraine is not going to start WW3. Our inaction only accellerates the possibility since this was already winding down.

As others said, you are repeating Russian talking points. Blaming the one attacked for causing a mass scale war instead of the agressors or the spposed "allies" deciding to betray them and help the enemy.



> "We" (americans) aren't doing anything to help, and are in fact withdrawing support.

How can America not do anything and withdraw support at the same time?

> Ukraine is not going to start WW3.

Yes Ukraine is not going to start it, but if the countries on Ukraine's side don't show any respect to Russia it might.



No.

My reply was just based on your question, the point being that your question originated in Russian propaganda. That it was based on dishonest reasoning by Putin. And that asking the question was helping Putin. Read a history book: anyone can give reasonable sounding justifications for invading a country. At the very least leaders need support for their wars, so nobody lets loose the dogs of war, saying "yeah I just want their stuff". In geopolitics, the truth is not always in the middle.

But if you're now asking me my personal opinion, should we "continue the war", then, yes I think we should continue to enable Ukraine to defend itself. So if Ukraine wants to send more soldiers to the front, to defend their nation, then yes we should support them. Note: that does not automatically mean sending American or European soldiers, but that was never on the table.

We should continue to support them because we engaged ourselves to support Ukraine in the 90's, when we forced them to hand over their nukes to Russia.

We should continue the war because as both recent and less recent history has borne out, allowing Russia to perform a landgrab will give the wrong ideas to other countries, ultimately resulting in geopolitical instability everywhere.

We should continue to allow Ukraine to defend itself because demonstrably, it is effective.

I have kids, and do not want WW3. But if after losing hundreds of thousands of men, during a three year war, Putin has not started a nuclear war; do you really think he will start one now? If anything, supporting Ukraine will prevent future conflict.

All of this is obvious for anyone who has performed even a cursory study of history. Which probably explains why you were downvoted.



Why is this Russian propaganda? The agreement was not official, but it did certainly seem to have happened. If you open up history books you should also understand that.


I believe I have answered that above.

In fact I have read the history books (have you?). Yes it happened. Many things were said in fact during the negotiation. That generally happens during negotiations whilst people are trying to find a solution.

During scores of negotiations, over a period of months if not years, at one instance the phrase was uttered. Then it was retracted. It was never restated. It was not in the final agreement.

Does it mean that anything the Russians said at some point in time during the negotiations, even if it was retracted afterwards, should apply?

If you were negotiating a contract, do you think that sort of reasoning would fly? If so I have a bridge to sell you.

This is why it is propaganda. Because it is self-serving and disingenuous.

Are you sure that your original question was a sincere question?



You argue for unquestionable warmongering? Are you sure it's a good idea? What can possibly go wrong? What if it turns against you?


I never said that no questions should be asked. And there is indeed a risk to standing up against agression. This is why it is very important to manage escalation risks, and the various American and European administrations so far have taken great care. For example by not supplying strategic weapons, and by disallowing strikes on certain Russian targets.

Also, note that there is also a risk of not standing up to agression. The price of doing nothing is not zero.

All I said was that one should take care not to be instrumentalised by unwittingly propagating false propagandist narratives. I think we can agree on that?



This is rich. Russia occupied and annexed Crimea, and a part of eastern Ukraine. Of course Ukraine was seeking NATO membership.


I'm not talking about the fact that Ukraine is seeking NATO membership now, I'm talking about the fact that NATO agreed to not expand to Russian borders and did anyway, putting pressure on Russia.


NATO never agreed not to epxand. That's a lie Russia is spreading, unfortunately with some success, as we can see.


When was this agreement drawn up and signed?

  The controversy regarding the legitimacy of eastward NATO expansion relates to the aftermath of the Revolutions of 1989, when the fall of Soviet-allied communist states to opposition parties brought European spheres of influence into question.

  Russian authorities claim that agreement on non-expansion of NATO to Eastern Europe took place orally and the alliance violated it with its expansion while the leaders of the alliance claim that no such promise was made and that such a decision could only be made in writing.

  Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev, who participated in the 1990 negotiations, subsequently spoke out about the existence of a "guarantee of non-expansion of NATO to the east" inconsistently, confirming its existence in some interviews and refuting in others.
Among academic researchers, opinions on the existence or absence of a non-extension agreement also differ.

~ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversy_regarding_the_legi...

OTOH, I understand there was an actual drawn up agreement regarding Ukraine giving up post Soviet nuclear weapons, Russia agreeing to Ukranian autonomy and the US agreeing to provide secuirty for Ukraine.



Regardless of whether there is a drawn up agreement, still the expansion of NATO to the Russian borders is putting pressure on Russia I would assume, and can cause conflicts.

But yeah it would certainly help if they would make the agreement more official.



> if they would make the agreement more official.

It's not an agreement if its a thirty year old unconfirmed one sided report of an off record discussion.

Has anybody on the NATO side from the time reported this being talked about? Were any drafts of an actual agreement ever drawn up and leaked?



It's not only a narrative of Russia, there are also Americans like Jeffrey Sachs saying this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9x5E0ETyv8

And recently two Trump administration officials also brought this up:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQknBjzMnds



Russia is, was and won't be at risk of being invaded by NATO. That's pure fantasy.

NATO is a defensive alliance.



The trouble with this assertion is that it discounts Russia fantasies as unimportant, when in fact fantasies are the basis for all defense planning.

And it's not that hard to see why a military alliance created to counter Russian power would be the subject of Russian nightmares.



By that logic we should surrender because Russia has nukes and say they are willing to use them.

Or we should develop secret nuke capabilities and launch a first strike.

Russia lies extensively.

We can't moderate our behavior based on their irrationel fears.



Well maybe that is what they say they are but maybe there is more going on, and I can imagine that Russia might consider that.


Vietnam war started for defensive reasons.


Nobody wants to invade Russia. The only reason Russia and Putin are opposed to NATO expansion is because it stops them from being able to bully their neighbours. Calling that "putting pressure on Russia" is crazy.


Ok, but now we have a war going on for 3 years, and there is a threat for WW3, is that nice?


Russia started the war by invading Ukraine. Russia can end the war any time they want by simply moving all of their troops out of Ukraine and back behind their border.

Any concession to Russia means we are saying that it's ok for nuclear-armed states to invade their neighbours at will, and to expand their territory at will, because "oh no, ww3!".

That is unacceptable. That is unjust. There is exactly one guilty party in this conflict, and it is not Ukraine. We do not appease dictators who invade their neighbours.



Before I started delving into this topic, I also thought that Russia was just doing this because they are a crazy war machine. But after I looked into the history of it, I can understand better that Russia does have some reasons to feel threatened by NATO. And yeah, if you threaten a country, you can expect conflict.

We should rather go into conversation with Russia instead of ignoring their perspective and continue with things causing conflicts with them.



> you can expect conflict.

Ok, so who started the war?



Yeah Russia started the war, but the NATO expansion pressured them, and that was the responsibility of NATO.

But what's your point?



You've been explained why several times by now and you're just dismissing the argumenst with "well Russia is just defending itself".

Actions speak louder than words. You can justify with all the quotes you want, the point is that reality is before our eyes. I don't sympathize with dictators waging wars for 13 years over much smaller countries.



I'm not saying Russia is just defending itself. I'm saying there was an agreement between NATO and Russia which NATO broke. And since Russia is a superpower, it can start a war, and it can result in WW3. So it's maybe wise to try to make a deal to get peace.


Are you surprised a country with Russia as it's neighbour wants to join NATO? Especially since it has been an important part of the defense of the European union.

Putin has been stuck in the cold war since forever. His expansionist ideals have been visible since forever.



Of course they want NATO, but Russia doesn't want it, and considers it a threat.

I think the cold war never ended. And it's not just the Russians that are active in it.



How did the cold war bot end with the fall of the soviet union?


> What I don't understand is that in the 90's, the NATO agreed that it wouldn't expand it's members to border countries of Russia.

Pure myth, refuted by no less than three different generations of Soviet and Russian officials, see: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43149963



as I understand it the discussion of adding Ukraine to Nato happened after Russian aggression.


No, Ukraine joining goes back at least to 2008 and George W. Bush's overconfidence. Russian aggression started in 2014.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Bucharest_summit

Note that Georgia joining was also on the table. Several months after this summit Russia trounced Georgia in a few days and since then there has been no serious movement towards joining NATO.

Russia likely expected the same outcome in Ukraine but as we know now that didn't materialize.



Well, already in April 2008 Ukraine got a pledge in Bucharest that they "will become" a member of NATO, which is before the mess in Crimea and Donbass and even before Georgia got smacked which are the usual examples of Russian early aggression.

There's also Putin's 2007 speech in Munich about them being really pissed with how they are treated, does that count? Other than that there's the second Chechen war and maybe the time the Russians rushed some peace keepers into Kosoy.



Yeah but the other countries were already added, so the pressure for Russia was building up. So I don't understand why it would be an unexpected action of Russia.


The problem isn’t that it’s unexpected. It’s still unjustified. China taking over Taiwan wouldn’t be very surprising either, does that make it ok?


Yeah but we could have prevented it, so that means we wanted to so badly expand NATO that we would go into war with Russia for it? Why can't we stay put and maybe try to talk more? And now that we have an opportunity to talk or make a deal, and we blow it off as being in bed with Putin?


Because we don’t want to be told who to voluntarily take into our alliance by an opponent? Are you going to give china everything they ask for next because they take Taiwan if you don’t?


But NATO first agreed not to expand to countries along Russia's border, because they see that as a threat. But then NATO did anyway. So it's not like we're being told by Russia what to do, we made an agreement.

And Russia is also a superpower, and we don't want to be in conflict with them. So yeah it's not that everything they say we should abide to, but we should also not think that we can do everything without upsetting them.



NATO didn’t agree to not expand, some ministers of some member countries verbally said that NATO wouldn’t expand. It’s not like there was a treaty that was signed and then ignored.


Well I guess that for Russia it doesn't really matter if the agreement was official. They still feel threatened by it, and they have been saying that, and NATO still went on.


Ok, so then it’s fine? I know what happened, we were discussing if it’s acceptable though.


Then what is fine? To expand NATO? Maybe it's not fine if it causes WW3


I was asking if Russia invading Ukraine is fine, because it was expected.


Yeah no I'm not saying that that is necessary ok, but that we should consider making a deal with Russia instead of just continuing the war.


That’s mostly a myth, encouraged by Putin.

https://www.brookings.edu/articles/did-nato-promise-not-to-e...



I think this view us a overly flattering interpretation of events.

The basic facts is that the US did give serveral verbal promises that NATO wouldn't expand, and that the later written treaties did not make such promises.

It is however not clear at all from the evidence that the US ever said that they were retracting the early verbal promises.

Further the Brookings piece you linked is trying to make hay out of the fact that the verbal promises were explicitly "only" about expansion into Eastern Germany, which is really just childish: If someone says you can't borrow their shovel, that's not to be understood as them allowing you to borrow anything else they own without asking.

The point is that while it's true that the US never signed anything that prohibited NATO expansion to the east, they were aware they did at one point promise just that.

Then later, as the US changed its minds during spring of 1990, the strategy seems to have been to just pretend not to remember those earlier promises and by narrowly focusing on German unification hope that the issue of the wider European order didn't come up again.

One thing that is really remarkable with all these accounts of how there wasn't any pledges is that the talks were only about German unification in the most narrow sense, and nothing else happened. So the Ion Curtain fell but the US was apparently entirely uninterested in talking to the Soviets about what the new overall structure would be?!



Independently of your overall point, what strikes me here is that Trump could not possibly care less about any promises that the "US" may have made. He is effectively breaking every deal ever made, with no regard for any continuity of policy (not just now, think the Iran deal in his first term). With Zelensky yesterday, he again went on about this ceasefire deal would be with "him", not like "the other presidents".

In this context, its a bit rich for the pro-Trump "great peace negotiator" group to imply that the US needed to keep verbal promises made 35 years ago. It was, after all, just what some dude said one time.



He's maybe breaking continuity of the US as a whole, but in general he seems to be quite consistent in his actions and motivations. And maybe he's the first president in a long time that actually understands Russia's perspective.

From the last presidents he's the one that started the least wars. I don't understand why people are saying that he's pairing with Russia when he wants to end a war that's been going on for 3 years.



Ukraine is in a bind, and the US has the power to do whatever it wants.

But boy, will the nations of the world remember this -- how quickly the US can turn from ally to bully. A really bad day for US foreign policy.

The EU is going to be thinking long and hard about the future of NATO now.



Ukraine’s situation is better than many people realize, and the US, in siding with Russia, may be betting on the wrong horse.

The EU has provided more aid to Ukraine than the US, Ukraine drone production is through the roof. Europe needs Ukraine and its army as a bulwark against Russia.



Ukraine’s situation is worse than many people realize. Ukraine is losing the war right now with roughly equal support in monetary terms from both US and EU! They have huge manpower problems because of losses and apparent political inability to mobilize enough men. Even if EU suddenly doubled its aid to compensate (which I think is _very_ unlikely), there are gaps in weapons production in Europe, e.g. for SAMs.


Manpower was always going to be their hardest-to-overcome problem in a protracted war. The relative population sizes when the war started meant they needed an extremely positive kill/death ratio (if you will) just to stay at parity.


Being on the defense and retreating gives exactly that parity. Soviet doctrine even has a number for that which is somewhat close to the ratio of Ukrainian to russian populations.


Yes, they have serious advantages from being on the defense, and a lot of other things working in their favor. I just mean that it was clear from the beginning that that was the thing that couldn't really be adjusted by aid (short of direct involvement of other militaries) and where the numbers were extremely not in their favor, so it'd be the thing to watch out for, as far as what might eventually force them to cede territory for peace or even to outright lose, even if foreign aid remained steady.


We have powerful weapons now. Manpower is not the (most) limiting factor. If the Ukraine had 10 times its current long range drone production, the Russians would start whining about peace deals.


> We have powerful weapons now.

Yes, and from the videos all over the Internet, a lot of what those weapons do is kill people. If just blowing up machines won the war, Ukraine would have declared victory in the first year.

There are lots of potential limiting factors, population's just one where Ukraine started at a big disadvantage and that can't really be made up for by foreign aid, unlike munitions or food or what have you (short of other countries outright sending troops). Weapons can be sent, but if they run short of people to use the weapons, to the point that they can't maneuver, can't credibly threaten counter-offensives, eventually can't cover the entire front... then things start to fall apart.

Like once they survived and repulsed the initial attempt at blitzkrieg, and things settled in to a stable-ish front, population is the particular figure that would tend to give you a knot in your stomach, looking at the on-paper situation from their perspective, and the prospect of a long war.



How will all those Russian soldiers going reach the front line if all refineries are gone and the train tracks are bombed daily? Walk?


Oh, sure, mess up their logistics network enough and they'll have trouble keeping their front resupplied. I don't see evidence that it's happening yet, but sure, saturate important targets with enough bombs and it will eventually, hopefully Ukraine finds a way to do just that. I'm sure it's at least helping, even what they've managed to do so far. It might be a big part of why Russia's having trouble putting together major offensives.

I'm not disputing that there are ways to win a war other than killing all the other dudes, I'm just pointing out that if Ukraine got backed into a corner, the smart money very early on was it'd happen either because "allies all pack their bags and go home" or "they run short of manpower".



How would you categorize Russia's manpower problem, given that they need to rely on North Korea for people, have to send injured soldiers back to the front line, and suffer multiple more deaths and injuries compared to Ukraine?


It's bad, but not as dire. Russian losses are very likely higher, but if I have to guess - multiples of 2 and above are just propaganda mixed with wishful thinking. They still didn't need to resort to further rounds of mobilization since 2022 or large scale usage of conscripts. And I don't understand what "North Korea" argument even is - Ukrainians would love to rely on someone else! But no one is willing to help in this department.


Russian losses are significantly higher, from what I hear in first hand reports are 3-4x at the very conservative end.

What you are posting is not factual.



I mean, are Zelensky or Syrskyi willing to share truthful information with you in private? If so - good for you, otherwise I'm not sure what "first hand" reports you can use. I'm relying mostly on data about obituaries collected on both sides as proxy for true figures.


If you use Russian recruitment and army size numbers, you get much more realistic figures https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ja6-espHVSE. Russia is up to ~700k to 800k casualties Russia has lost ~3-4x more people than Ukraine so far.


I think that's probably a good estimate for the Russian side, while 200k casualties total for Ukraine is a joke. Aren't even their official figures for wounded in the 400k range?


Ukraine didn't release casualty figures for a long time (though to be fair, Russia government doesn't exactly post daily casualty figures either, the Russian casualty figure is divined by infering what we can from Russian media), the Western press released a figure for the Ukrainian forces, which is probably quite low, and the figure hasn't increased in almost a year.

It's sort of like how Western press has been claiming for over a year that 20,000 people have perished in Gaza, and the figure never goes up.



Do invading armies suffer more casualties than defenders ?


It depends.

In this particular case Russia doesn't seem to care care about lives and uses WW1 style of waves of meat, which of course drastically increases losses



This is the most recorded war in history and I know someone(History Legends)offering a good amount if you can show him videos of these Russian meat wave attacks .


sometimes yes, sometimes no. In both US iraq wars, the US had way fewer casualties than Iraq. Invading is harder than defending, but a country won't invade unless they think they are likely to succeed with acceptable losses.


first hand reports from friends who are fighting the war every day. I'm sure the very lacking obituaries that Russia is actively fighting to suppress will give you a better picture.


So anecdotes from biased sources?


They're trying to avoid extensive drafts in their power-base cities for fear of unrest. Plus that's their reserve if they need to supply a second front for any reason.


> How would you categorize Russia's manpower problem

As strained, but not as bad as Ukraine's.

Russia's population is over 140 million. That's 100 million more than Ukraine's pre-war population. Russia's territory isn't meaningfully compromised, their cities aren't in ruin, their industry is mostly intact. They haven't sustained something like 15-25% population loss from people fleeing the way Ukraine has.

North Koreans aren't in Russia because Russia is out of guys. Putin just wants to avoid wider scale conscription/mobilization if he can help it and will take other options first

That's why earlier stages of this war involved ex-convict Wagnerite units, mercenaries from the third world, local militias raised from the "people's republics" in Donetsk and Luhansk, and conscription when necessary from poorer ethnic minority regions far away from Moscow and St. Petersburg.



> North Koreans aren't in Russia because Russia is out of guys. Putin just wants to avoid wider scale conscription/mobilization if he can help it and will take other options first

This is correct and shockingly obvious given the initial invasion used mercenaries. It's a straightforward exchange with an ally that benefits Russia the most and is great PR for NK, internally and locally.



At this point in time would anyone bet against US troops going in and "peacekeeping" for Putin against Ukraine? It seems pretty clear that the US is aligned against the West now.

Almost everything pouring out of his mouth today is replaying what is in Russian state media sadly.



Yes, I would bet highly against that.

The US is not "aligned against the West". The US is simply breaking from the ideology it's had since WW2 that it's in the US' best interest to get involved in every international conflict in the world.

You'd think that the left would be ecstatic about that considering how much it's criticized US involvement in other countries conflicts, but here we are - it's the left that is trashing the US for not wanting to get involved.



> The US is simply breaking from the ideology it's had since WW2 that it's in the US' best interest to get involved in every international conflict in the world.

The publicized ideology, is not always the reality. The US has always been involved with every international conflict. The CIA was the formalization of the interest.



I mean that ideology is, practically speaking, what "the West" is.

But certainly in the UK it was a party of "the left" that invaded Iraq with the US. It was a party of "the left" that invaded Afghanistan with the US. And it was a party of "the left" that is now bolstering the military after a decade of decline by a party of "the right".

"The left" were fighting fascism across Europe in the last century, from the International Brigade in Spain to the Soviets against Hitler.

The actual problem The West has now is that the guarantor of military power has gone. Trump and Vance were literally shouting propaganda from Russian state media to Zelensky (look up starting WW3, or VIP tours) and making false equivalency between being invaded and defending your country.

Trump has carried out the biggest rug-pull in history and aligned the USA with Russia. Against The West.



> I mean that ideology is, practically speaking, what "the West" is.

This makes no sense. The current ideology is only 70 years old. The "West" has existed for centuries before that.

Maybe you're young and you think there are no options but the current path, but I can assure you there is.

The truth is that the US (or Europe) is not willing to go head to head with Russia. They have neither the public support or the willingness to take the economic hit.

So if they aren't willing to defeat Russia, what is the only possible outcome? A negotiated peace.

So rather than grinding up another few hundred thousand human lives in the war and end up in the same place a few years from now, why not just finish it now?



Because appeasing aggressors never works? I mean, we literally took the appeasement route when he annexed Crimea. A few years later and here we are. Guess what happens when we appease him now?

The term The West applies to those countries born out of European heritage which _assumed_ semi-direct lineage from the Graeco-Roman empires of Antiquity (notably the Late Antique split in the early church across Eastern/Western lines). Like all political terms it's in constant flux, but yes, today it largely means the superset of NATO + Five Eyes countries.

Vance's Munich speech and the Whitehoust confrontation yesterday confirms that the USA has turned its back on the west - you only have to see the reaction of world leaders to see that - outside of Orban, the only people congratulating Trump were Putin and Lavrov. Who could singlehandedly stop the war - right now - by pulling their troops out of a sovereign, democratic state.

Not sure what my age has to do with anything but I was bought up during the Cold War if that helps.



> Because appeasing aggressors never works? I

Who said anything about appeasing? Fighting for the best peace deal you can is not "appeasing".

NATO is never going to escalate with Russia to the point Ukraine gets all it's territory back - and Putin knows that. NATO isn't stupid - Ukraine isn't worth expanding the war beyond Ukraine into Eastern Europe. They have neither the financial resources nor the support back home. They are willing to sacrifice Ukrainian lives, but not their own grip on power.

So if we know how this all ends - Ukraine giving up territory in exchange for peace, then why not pursue that instead of throwing another million lives and hundred billion dollars into the chipper and getting the same deal in 3 years instead?

> Vance's Munich speech and the Whitehoust confrontation yesterday confirms that the USA has turned its back on the west

No, it means the US is turning it's back on the neoliberal geopolitical position that grinding down competing powers through proxy wars is always worth it in the end. George Kennan died long ago, and it's time to let his geopolitical strategy die too.

It's a position that only existed since WW2, and one that has gotten the US involved in dozens of wars since then, often at a greater cost than the benefit in the end (e.g. Vietnam, Iraq).



How is it not appeasing when "finding the best peace deal" equals "letting an agressor state keep a chip of neighboring state", even more so when this repeats every few years?


Read again what Putin's stated aims are. Hoping for a peace deal with a totalitarian, expansive state does not work. It didn't work when it was "just Crimea", it won't work when it's "just some towns they took by force".

It's utterly naive, given all his history, to think Putin will just acquiesce.

Even if your geopolitical assumptions are correct, Trump and Vance's behaviour yesterday - humiliating a war leader in front of the worlds media, using the rhetoric and tropes of the invaders he is facing was unbelievably disgusting.



Also, please don't forget what Putin's stated aims are - reconquest of Russian border back to pre 1930 limits (maybe you understand why Polish defence spending is at 5% GDP) and the breakup of the EU. These are his aims - he doesn't just want that little bit of Ukraine he has - parts of Poland, Finland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia all are at stake.


The paths ran before all led to endless war. ever bigger, ever more world war.


> Putin just wants to avoid wider scale conscription/mobilization if he can help it and will take other options first

That's because a good chunk of untapped population would simply refuse.



> Ukraine is losing the war right now

Ukraine is _stalling_ the war right now. Russia is able to capture more moonscaped villages by forcing expendable (their words, not mine) manpower to assault Ukrainian positions.

Ukraine is slowly retreating, but at the rate that will require Russia _years_ to gain a meaningful amount of territory.



The military experts I listen to all more or less agree that the focus on territory is just wrong. It's a war of attrition unsustainable in the long run for both sides, the question is who runs out of resources first (or if there is some sort of ceasefire before that). Germany famously lost such a war a century ago without losing any territory!


China has been supplying Russia missing materials (semiconductors, mostly; see: https://ssi.armywarcollege.edu/SSI-Media/Recent-Publications...) and permitting their citizens to serve as mercinaries (see: https://www.newsweek.com/china-news-mercenaries-killed-ukrai...).

For China, a balkanized nuclear Russia may be a greater threat than supplying them manpower (due to surplus men and civil unrest) and materiel. I would not expect Russia to run into the WW1 germany problem.



There's no evidence of a substantial number of Chinese nationals serving in the Russian military, rather then just a few notable examples. The largest foreign troop commitment by state-sanction was the North Koreans, which were about ~10,000 strong and have since been withdrawn (after heavy losses).


Yes, and the point I'm making is that (1) Chinese nationals have served, indicating that Beijing at least tacitly approves mercenary actions and (2) China can increase deployment if needed by either economic or prisoner release coercion.

This is a meatgrinder conflict. If China can reduce its dissident or potentially rebellious population while avoiding a collapse of Russia mirroring WW1 Germany, they may very well (and I would argue are likely) do so.



That doesn't follow: Ukraine has the international legion (probably about 3,500 people in country last I checked) and a number of Russian groups fighting on behalf of Ukraine.

The only thing Chinese nationals fighting for Russia tells us is that China is not expressly limiting freedom of movement to do so...but there has also been at least 1 American who tried to join Russia to fight Ukraine (and was tortured to death by the Russians on suspicion of being a spy for his trouble).



First, 3,500 is a drop in the bucket. Second, just because China hasn't yet mobilized doesn't mean they won't if they feel a line is crossed like they did in Korea.

With a country like China, everything is on the table



> (1) Chinese nationals have served, indicating that Beijing at least tacitly approves mercenary actions

I wouldn't assume a small number of Chinese nationals volunteering to fight for Russia means China approves of their actions. Several Australians ended up fighting for ISIS in Syria and Iraq, that doesn't mean the Australian government approves of Australians fighting for ISIS, it just means it failed in those cases to stop them – it didn't realise they planned to do that before they left the country, or they didn't decide to do it until after they were already living overseas.

And one difference, is obviously Australia and ISIS are sworn enemies, so when Australians volunteered to fight for ISIS, the Australian government could openly condemn their action. Whereas, China and Russia are allies, so even if China disapproves of its citizens volunteering to fight for Russia, it can't condemn them publicly because it would harm the alliance.



China isn't sending a "small number"; casualties alone have supposedly reached into the hundreds (see this account: https://x.com/whyyoutouzhele/ you will need to go back awhile) and recruiting is heavily concentrated among former PLA.

Make no mistake: if China wanted to shut this down it could.



> China isn't sending a "small number"; casualties alone have supposedly reached into the hundreds

I think the word "supposedly" is important here – I don't think we have any hard data on how many Chinese volunteers there are serving with Russia.

And I'd question how big a military contribution these Chinese volunteers are making. Russia has hundreds of thousands of troops fighting in this war, even a thousand Chinese volunteers would be less than 1%.

> Make no mistake: if China wanted to shut this down it could.

Even if the Chinese government is willing to "turn a blind eye" to this going on at a low volume, that doesn't mean they'd let it grow to a significantly higher volume.

It also isn't clear whether this is a deliberate initiative from the very top, or something that has grown organically bottom-up and the people at the top have decided to let it be for now rather than crack down on it.



Which military experts? If you listen to actually knowledgeable people like Kofman it's been known forever that 2024 would be (and as we now are seeing from Russia being pushed back) Russia's peak. Russia is out of equipment and is starting to get similar problems with manpower. In the meantime Europe's investments are starting to pay off and allow Ukraine to pull ahead in 2025.


Kofman among others. He has been saying for a while that "the war is on a negative trajectory for Ukraine", i.e. they are currently losing, no?


> Germany famously lost such a war a century ago without losing any territory

It helped that the ww1 western front wasn't inside Germany http://www.greatwar.co.uk/places/ww1-western-front.htm



That's correct. Territory captured is useless for Russia, but it's what Putin wants, so his generals push for it at a great expense.

Ukraine is suffering 3-5 times fewer casualties than Russia, but it's also 3 times smaller than Russia.



Ukraine is sending troops over 26 or so years old now. They will need to dip into their prime-aged young population eventually, the 18-to-26-year-olds. That will be a hard moral choice they apparently want to avoid, but perhaps necessary.


As a graybeard with teenage kids, this is terribly disheartening... I would rather be cannon fodder than my sons. After all, I have already reproduced and I have taught hundreds of youngsters all what I knew. I would gladly accept that my contribution to mankind is already done and gone, before seeing one of my children go to war. Is youth so important for soldiers? Wouldn't it be better to send forty and fifty year olds to the front? Anything before 18-26 youngs? It makes no sense. Are they so much more competent than any random middle-age?


Ukraine has churned all their greybeards and middle age folks, and 18+ are the only ones not conscripted yet. (Hence Trump's comment that Ukraine is having manpower issues and has no strong cards left for negotiations)


It hasn't any strong cards only because the west (which is now Europe - the US is almost at Russias side now) is trickling the weapons supply. Open the taps!


What's the point of more recruits when the existing ones don't get enough training and adequate equipment? Ukraine needs weapons far more than it needs manpower.


All these 18 year old cohort - they dont exist in Ukraine anymore, a lot of them escaped Ukraine while they were minors before reaching 18, because this issue of conscripting 18+ has been discussed for quite a while.

If you look at the reports from Ukraine high schools - its all girls class, no boys



Yep, I left Ukraine 3 years ago when I was 16.


Wow. That's such a huge change. I hope it has been ok for you and wish you a great future.

Do you want to share a bit of your story? 3 years ago would mean you left right at the start of the war. How do you feel about that now?



There are pros and cons. I live in Canada now, and one major downside is that, because technically I would be an international student, I cannot afford a university. The tuition fee for international students is through the roof. But, ultimately, leaving Ukraine was a correct decision, because otherwise I would have ended up fighting Russia. In summary, it sucks but could have been worse.


Yes, that sucks. What would you like to study at university if you get the chance?


That would be Computer Science.


I was hoping you would say that, because it's a technical field you can do very well in without a university degree.

I don't mean to minimize your loss, but I cheer for you to succeed despite it.



You are correct. But, ironically, unlike in Ukraine, in Canada and probably in the US, entry-level jobs (also known as internships) are reserved for undergraduate students. You could call this is another downside of leaving Ukraine.


At least in the US, you can just make something complicated enough to show some skill and get a real job. That's what I did, anyway. I used to work in a factory.


Yeah, that's what I think too. I have been working on a project[0] to do just that, would you mind commenting if my project is something that can be considered complicated enough? In your experience, were you not blocked by the fact that companies are looking for "years of professional experience"?

[0]: https://github.com/mayo-dayo/app



That's plenty complicated. There are people out there who can't even fizzbuzz.

Tomorrow there will be the two monthly threads for who's hiring & who wants to be hired on HN. Use those.



I just randomly saw this—the hiring threads go out on the first weekday of the month, so it'll be Monday March 3.

https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=whoishiring



My bad, I thought it used to be the 1st? Or maybe I just saw too many months that started on weekdays and got the pattern wrong.

I appreciate the clarification, because I had wondered why I hadn't seen it yet.



Thanks.


Sorry for getting the day wrong, the two threads are up today, I guess they wait for the first weekday:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43243024 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43243022

Try both. Hope that helps.



Yeah, the USA is a giant free market for immigrant labour in tech.


Sorry what? Reports from Ukrainian high schools?

I live in Ukraine, this is not true.



i have no way to verify, just judging from the news headlines from what I read

https://lenta.ru/news/2025/02/16/ukrainskie-klassy-ostalis-b...

translated: https://lenta-ru.translate.goog/news/2025/02/16/ukrainskie-k...

  There are almost no boys left in senior classes of Ukrainian schools. This was reported by the publication "Strana.ua" on the Telegram channel with reference to blogger Alena Yakhno.
  As the blogger said, the 17-year-old son of her friend studies in Kiev , but all his classmates have left. "Only girls are left in the class. There will be no moral. It's just a fact," she wrote.
  The publication recalled that upon reaching the age of 18, young people from Ukraine are no longer allowed to go abroad. In addition, the report notes, information about Ukrainian schoolchildren aged 16-17 leaving Ukraine en masse has appeared before.
  Earlier, the Verkhovna Rada reported on hundreds of thousands of schoolchildren who left the country before the start of the school year. According to MP Nina Yuzhina, about 300 thousand students, mostly high school students, left Ukraine in July and August. In addition, due to the departure of young people, 2,114 schools have been closed in Ukraine over the past four years.


Strana ua is funded by Russians.

You can count how many high school children there are in Ukraine. There is something like 4 millions now, so the loss of a couple hundred of students of both sexes does not make classes girls only.

People, families with kids, leave Ukraine, because living in a country during war is not nice, to say the least. The fear of mobilization is only one aspect of it.

https://rubryka.com/2024/06/25/v-ukrayini-kilkist-uchniv-u-s...



I don't know if original claim is true or not in general, but lenta.ru in particular is a poor source of information, it's heavily skewed into Russian-government side.


The media operation Strana is mentioned as the source for the lenta.ru story. Strana is sanctioned and banned by the Ukrainian government, though Ukraine government hands out a lot of media bans.

It's a bummer that just about every media outlet in Ukraine is either tightly linked to Russian propaganda, or on the other side its mostly super pro Ukrainian (formerly funded by USAID) outlets with ties to weird libertarian billionaires who want to turn Ukraine into free market paradise. Hardly any middle ground.



not everything is a conspiracy theory.

Sometimes, reported news are actually true, this is from Ukraine's Education Minister:

https://www-unian-net.translate.goog/society/osoblivo-hlopci...

Just think about it logically, if you are a mother of 16 y.o kid, and USA says you must conscript 18+ y.o to receive any further aid - would you just sit and wait for your child to get drafted on his next birthday?



There is nothing about girls only classes, nor that it has any numerical data.


oh totally, I would leave immediately. I financially helped a family with teenage kids smuggle themselves out of Ukraine to a different country a few months into the recent invasion.


> The generals push for territory at great expense

…by focusing on controlling sectors in mainly the East?



Sorry? What?

Russia is not gaining any strategic advances from the push. It's not a fight to get some magical prize.



And that will cost Russia a great deal. This has turned into a war that heavily favors defenders. Both sides are dug in, with a wide no-mans-land between the front lines, where anyone who enters is likely to get killed by a drone.


>And that will cost Russia a great deal.

How much is Russia spending on the war compared to Ukraine?



Here are just some of the reasons Russia is hastening its economic demise:

- spending all of its foreign reserves and weakening its currency

- killing tens of thousands of working age men

- permanently removing hundreds of thousands of working age men from the workforce

- increasing the demands on social benefits for disabled veterans by hundreds of thousands of men

- suppressing the birth rate by staying in a protracted 'special military operation'



What I mean is that attackers from either side will take a lot more casualties than defenders.


Ukraine has been loosing a three-day-special operation for three years.

Russia's refinery's are getting hit and all that crude oil is worthless with a refinery. In the case of the campaign again Nazi Germany's refineries funny enough it's the allies who didn't think it as critical as the Nazis did https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_campaign_of_World_War_II#O...



Ukraine knows the future of warfare and will prosper if they survive this. They will be the ones with the technology and experience in future warfare, and the USA is throwing away a chance to partner with Ukraine and guarantee such a victory.

In 20, 15, or 7 years from now when terrorists are sending drones into medium-sized cities in Alabama to kill indiscriminately, it would have been better for the USA to have been on Ukraine's side.

EDIT: better grammar, maybe



>In 20, 15, or 7 years from now when terrorists are sending drones into medium-sized cities in Alabama to kill indiscriminately, it would have been better for the USA to have been on Ukraine's side.

Spot on. This is what Zelenskyy implied when he said "now you have an ocean but one day you'll know how it feels". But the dumb kakistocrat commander-in-chief took it personally.

By the way remember the New Jersey drone sightings that spooked the East Coast for a week? That was likely the government secretly testing defense deployement against a hypothetical drone swarms attack.



I have assumed the same about the gatwick airport shutdown caused by drones in the UK in 2018. Newspapers saying "No culprit ever found" says "results of military exercise are classified" to me...


The value of having a front-row seat to this, from a doctrine and R&D point of view, is staggeringly high. Anyone who's getting copied on the reports is going to be a full generation ahead of countries that aren't.

... that goes for Russia's partners, too. Meaning it's even more important for us.



that may be enough to sway US military leadership


Trump is the commander in chief. Top military leadership who disagree with him will be forced to retire, and replaced with loyalists, if they haven't been already.


There's always the option of a coup


The Democrats follow the rules if that's what you are saying...


The one in progress from Trump et al.?


Oh give me a break.

There's not going to be a coup against a President who is keeping us OUT of a foreign war.

Touch grass.



I agree, no coup. On the other hand, if we the US keep changing alliances at the whim of what are essentially twitterheads, we could end up having ZERO allies.


Beau of the Fifth Column (Youtube channel for Justin King) would always emphasize (before he relinquished it all for his wife "Belle of the Ranch" to take over) that international relations are usually well-orchestrated, even between enemies, with speeches and releases using heavily coded language, to minimize the possibilities of conflict. Friends and enemies both would telegraph to some degree their intentions, their protestations, their agreements, and shifting policies ... very very carefully.

Trump, Vance, Musk ... have upended this all with their amateur hour antics. They are not serious people. They think they can rewrite the rules but they've bought us at least a decade of hurt and isolation on the international stage, and likely worse economic prospects for a while. Nobody will trust us, even if saner leadership comes round in a few years.



If Ukraine loses, the right wing militias will exit Ukraine, settle in Europe and start up The Years Of Lead Part 2.


Betting on the wrong horse while Xi just has to stand aside to see the crown of superpower being handed to him with no effort, Russia on the road to implode in a fire sale, while China looks to sign lucrative trade agreements with the EU.

Brexit was shooting yourself in the foot, today was a gruesome display of diplomatic suicide on live television.



The EU could end up taking that crown if they handle this well.

Firstly of course, they need to be united, steadfast and decisive in their support for Ukraine until Russia collapses. They should be building new alliances, with India, South America, and any free countries in Africa and Asia. And maybe some unfree ones. Possibly even China, because let's face it, despite its many flaws, China is not the threat to Europe that Russia is. A wedge between China and Russia would weaken Russia and help the EU.

Then, after Russia collapses and the US has withdrawn from the world stage, it will be the EU that saved Ukraine, just like after WW2, the new super powers where the US and USSR that defeated Germany. And Ukraine has a lot to offer that the EU lacks.

The EU is incredibly powerful. Biggest common market in the world, half a billion people, 2nd largest military in the world if they put it all together. The EU just needs to learn to flex its muscles, to unite and assert itself, instead of hiding behind the US.



The ascent of Europe is the sort of outcome I might hope for — speaking as an American who believes in American values that my country no longer represents.


I'm not religious, but if I was, this is what I'd be praying for. Most alternatives I can imagine seem pretty dire.


Speaking of religion and Europe ... while not in Latin America I spent a few years growing up here and there in Arizona, my parents being ministers in a pentecostal church. All the pentecostal and charismatic churches were in thrall of the Hal Lindsey book "Late Great Planet Earth" [0] and other prophetic books trying to map nations/geographies from the Book of Revelation / Apocalypse to the then-day international power structure. "Sister Drew", our local in-congregation prophecy expert, would relay the latest findings. From what I remember, the idea was that Russia and Europe were to fight it out, Europe being the seat of the Antichrist's power, and somehow the Vatican was embroiled in it too.

Europe was supposed to be the "late stage" of human civilization, from Daniel's Old Testament dream of the human-form statue. The head of gold was the pinnacle of civilization, Babylon. The silver chest and arms were Persia. The belly and thighs were the Greek Empire. The legs of iron were the Roman Empire, resurrected as the fractious European Common Market (now European Union) in the feet of "iron mixed with clay".

The USA was variously portrayed as the Great Wh*re of Babylon, or else had some heroic role of some kind in these End Times.

At some point, all nations would stop fighting each other and join together to turn on Israel. Israel would be doomed but for God's intervention. From Daniel's dream, a pebble would form from nothing, grow to be a mighty boulder, and smash the feet of iron and clay (Europe, and by proxy godless humanity) and the rest of human civilization in form of the statue would crumble. The mighty boulder being ... Jesus. Israel would be mostly destroyed but a rescued "remnant", faithful Christians would be raptured / taken to heaven, the World would End ... and eventually all humanity would be judged for eternal salvation or punishment.

Wacky, fringe stuff ... EXCEPT THAT THESE BELIEFS ARE SO RELEVANT TO OUR PRESENT POLITICAL SITUATION IN THE USA. Check out the book "The Violent Take It by Force: The Christian Movement That Is Threatening Our Democracy" by Matthew D Taylor [1]. In this book and various podcasts Taylor describes the origins, religious and political philosophy, and current political power of the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR). No NAR church / congregation will claim the moniker today, but it remains a perfect description of the structure, leadership, and influence of this movement. The Bebbington Quadrilaterial splits "evangelicals" in the USA (and internationally) into four groups based on measures along two axes ... the "denominational vs non-denominational", and "charistmatic vs non-charistmatic". I grew up in in the denominational charismatic square, where churches believe in and expect the miraculous, but also belong to a centralized denomination with standards and accountability. The NAR congregations fit in the non-denominational charistmatic square, have a very authoritarian leadership structure with "apostles and prophets" at the top of each organization, and with a forest of MLM trees of such organizations, with no accountability at all for the "apostles" (c.f. the Mike Bickle scandal, and so many others, where people got away with abuse for years). In any case, in 2015 Trump's "spiritual advisor" Paula White (in early 2025 now is head of the White House Faith Council) gathered many apostles in this NAR movement around Trump, to throw their weight behind his candidacy and make him an acceptable candidate for their brand of evangelicals, and to pull in low-information evangelicals of other stripes behind his candidacy. And hence ... a conversation today between Trump and Zelensky, and many other knock-on effects.

Note that the NAR proposes to take over the world through their Seven Mountains Mandate, to "Bring Heaven to Earth", and usher in the End of Time. Of course, Trump does not believe any of this, but the evangelical power base is extremely loyal to him.

[0] https://www.amazon.com/Late-Great-Planet-Earth/dp/031027771X

[1] https://www.amazon.com/Violent-Take-Force-Christian-Threaten...



>China is not the threat to Europe that Russia is. A wedge between China and Russia would weaken Russia and help the EU

It gets interesting when you realize that Russia is also a rival to China in Northeast Asia. A balkanized Russia, like the one the EU could have manifested had it took Russia warnings seriously and brought about decisive action after troops were invading Crimea. But no they lived in their "End of History" fantasy and that virtuous liberties will magically be spread if we just trade goods and ideas between spheres of influence.

Of course this reality will be bad for our allies in Asia (ie. Japan, SK, Taiwan). But maybe this time it'll wake up some in America from becoming isolationist again.



I see SK and Japan also as necessary allies for the EU. But if China decides to take Taiwan, I don't think there's anything the EU could possibly hope to do about it; Taiwan remains independent because the US guarantees their independence. If Trump were to withdraw that guarantee too, I don't think there's anything that can save Taiwan.

It sucks, but the EU has more urgent problems closer to home. All I can hope for is that Trump hates China enough that he'll continue to guarantee Taiwan's freedom. But I'm sure at some point he's going to ask them for some more material "thanks" too.

But yeah, the EU's relationship with China should not be the same as that with other allies. But I think there's room for some cooperation, and the EU might not object too loudly if China were to take outer Manchuria back, for example.



Honestly I don't think I can see China taking Taiwan militarily. They witnessed how the world isolated Russia economically after the aggression on Ukraine and especially since their economy relies on exports. They don't have much to win other than some geopolitical credit at the expense of their manufacturing and technology sector. China is conducting a policy where they'll cripple Taiwan's will to seek independence from just sheer soft and economic power. They offer fantastic perks to Taiwanese from the oppurtinity to work visa free, access to credit/mortgage with no social credit screening and ability to invest with no usual red tape.

The Taiwanese are being told China is an aggressor but nowadays they see the opposite. Also if China invades it'll destroy every goodwill they had built to win over Taiwanese hearts and won't get control over TSMC supply chain market since the latter promised to torpefy their fabs before China gets its hand on them.



EU is a lot looser union of sovereign nations than USA, where the states are federal. California or Texas do not have their separate foreign policies; France and Germany do.

I don't see "EU taking that crown" happening any time soon, sadly. With the ascent of (often Russia sponsored) far-right nationalist parties, this is even less likely.



> 2nd largest military in the world if they put it all together

Military industrial capacity is Europe's main problem right now. I believe they're ramping up production, but it's going to take years. They may end up having to buy the arms from the US in the meantime if they want to aid Ukraine. If it gets to that, the question is whether they give China some business.



> buy the arms from the US in the meantime

I'm not so sure that's a realistic option when there's US officials saying to allies they should buy less US equipment.[1] It doesn't inspire confidence.

> A British defence figure, who is not part of the government, was told privately by US officials that it should “recalibrate” its reliance on US equipment.

And then there's this.

> They said that a US administration could put restrictions on kit from the US and that if countries are “deemed not to be doing what you are told you will suddenly find out missiles won’t fire and planes won’t fly. You have got to be careful.”

When allies buy less US equipment, what happens to the US citizens employed in the defence industry?

[1]: https://archive.ph/q2hgi



I LOL'd. Ruefully.

Seriously, I'm wondering who is going to be a more dangerous geopolitical foe for Europe going forward, the US or China. The ascendant forces in the in the US are pro-Russia, and that's not likely to change in the near term. Unlike China, though, we haven't sold military hardware to Russia. Yet.



I'm not so sure China is a threat to Europe. They're as far away from each other as they can possibly be. Sure, Europe is upset about China's human rights record, and their cheap manufacturing circumventing EU rules, and maybe also the economic influence China is trying to gain over other countries (Africa, central Asia), but it's not a threat to Europe itself, which Russia clearly is, and the US could become, if Trump decides to join Russia.

If the US turns, Europe may have to ally with China.



Why are you acting as if China is a benign bystander in this? They literally sided with Russia in the very beginning of the war, including notifying Putin of intelligence the US shared with them in the months leading up to the war.

You also seem to be yet another person predicting Russia's "collapse", which is a prediction I've been hearing since a few years after Putin took control.



I don't think Europe can or should ally with a country that is treating the Uyghurs the way it is, regardless of the geopolitics.

Trump is old, fat and infirm. Hopefully he will be gone soon and we return to some sort of sanity.



In an ideal world I'd agree with you, but the world is unfortunately very far removed from that. You don't have to agree with everything to look for common ground in other areas. Support the good, criticize the bad.


> You don't have to agree with everything to look for common ground in other areas.

That's exactly the approach Europe took when dealing with Russia and we now see where it got us.



True. Well, I still don't disagree with the initial policy of opening trade with Russia. It's just that Europe should have realized much earlier that in Putin's hands, Russia was becoming more hostile again. And after they invaded Georgia and Ukraine in 2008 and 2014, they should have cut ties immediately, and not invest in more ties.

Though I suppose you could argue the same is true after China's expansion into the South China Sea. But even then, China isn't remotely as aggressive, expansionist or hostile as Russia is. And their government, although totalitarian and unfree, is at least competent. Although Xi's narcissism and vanity are definitely a bad sign.



Trump's approach is probably going to work partially in the short term. - The US is very powerful, a lot of countries are reliant on them, so bullying can be used to extract benefits. They got their plane thingy with Colombia, Mexico didn't react much to the preludes of military action against the cartels. The US could annex the Panama Canal and Greenland.

There's a reason why hawks like Bolton and Cheney are against it. It harms US interests in the mid-to-long-term. To me it seems like the Trump adminstration is a) trying to distract from their domestic agenda and b) isolate the US internationally and create new external foes to justify domestic changes.



China sided with Russia from the very beginning of the war, including notifying Putin as soon as the US revealed their intelligence in a meeting with Xi before the invasion. Interesting how quickly you forget this inconvenient detail in the narrative you've constructed in your head.


Oh is China going to guarantee Ukraine's security now?

At the end of the day, Zelensky had the most obvious proposition in the world -- allow American companies access to Ukrainian minerals. He kept asking for a security guarantee as if he needed anything more.

If he expected Trump or Vance to publicly announce they would go to war with nuclear-armed Russia over these mineral deals, then he's not fit to be president of any country.

The security implication was obvious... if Russia threatened American mining operations, the United States would obviously respond.

But the demand that Trump say he would go to war with Russia.. what purpose would that possibly serve? Anyone with two brain cells to rub together knows the implication.

So maybe he can now turn to China, but I'll tell you that China's propositions for Ukraine's rare earth minerals will likely have Ukraine losing a lot more sovereignty than the scenarios where America took them over instead of the one where Russia wins.



I worry that Russia is more than capable of throwing mass casualties into the fight for longer than Ukraine can.


Not on WWII levels, no. Also, not without serious blowback inhouse.

And fighting Ukraine has made Russia vulnerable in all other proxy wars and fronts, such as Syria recently.



I worry they don’t need wwii levels.


China takes Siberia. Soon. And maybe Taiwan.


Colonize it while it remains nominally Russian, would be a pretty good move. "Sick Man of Europe"-style. "Oh we British are just, just, like, helping the Ottomans administer Egypt, we're good chaps like that"


No need... if things continue the way they are, they'll soon be offered the opportunity to buy Siberia


Russia is paying $40000 for people to get enrolled. It can't afford mass casualties at this cost.


Source for $40000?


Samara region had a sign-up bonus of 4 million rubles ($40000) until the last week: https://tass.ru/obschestvo/23024353

Other regions are comparable, 2-3 million rubles ($20000-$30000) are available in several more regions. Then there's a federal one-time payment of 500000 rubles ($5000) and a monthly salary of $2000.



Not exactly to get enrolled, but in Moscow websites officially advertize 2300000 rub to sign, which is about $25000. Then monthly payment is 190000 rub so for first year it'll be about $50000 which is 5 to 10 times more than average salary (depending on the region). Initial bonus for enrollment is city-dependent but as far as I understand anyone can just travel to Moscow and sign in there.

I heard that volonteer numbers right now are pretty high so army became more selective - people expect that war will end soon and hope to get sign in bonus without spending much time on the battlefield, if any.



Most informed analysts say Russia has the opposite problem. They don't have any more meat for the grinder without tapping the middle and upper class of Russian citizens, which will have repercussions, potentially serious ones, for Putin.


They're throwing North Koreans at the fight, which shows how desperate they are for bodies.


Well, North Korea benefits from getting experience and field-testing radios and winter underwear. The drone environment is very good advertising for their goal of becoming a major arms dealer.


Yes, North Korea gains immediate benefit (money or material aid) and a theoretical delayed benefit (demonstration of mercenary abilities, and real world experience for their troops if they survive). Russia gains bodies to throw against bullets. If every North Korean soldier died but took several bullets for Russian soldiers, it's a win for Russia. They do not care about the North Korean soldiers or North Korea.


The regions Russia is taking from Ukraine have some value in terms of GDP. It's interesting that the Freudian slip US offering involved an additional minerals deal (as in, this is the main interest of the taking parties). Russia is not going to give back GDP, and that's probably behind the break in negotiations. Russia is not relinquishing any gains, and the US wants more resources, and there is no guarantee given to Ukraine regarding its remaining territorial integrity. They are trying to make Ukraine eat shit.


I follow a lot of Ukrainian commentary, it's hard for me to conclude Ukraine is doing well. They're having to conscript younger and younger people every day. No business is insane enough to invest in Ukraine at the moment. Some companies are crazy enough to try to ship goods in and out of Odesa, but its significantly less than pre-war. Every time the Ukrainian army tries to take back territory in the Donbas, the Russian army repels their forward strikes, and usually takes a few more feet of the Donbas in the process. It's really hard to win a war of attrition against the largest country in the world. The Russian army occupies some of the largest energy sources of Ukraine. I haven't investigated recently but I suspect Russia is still Ukraine's largest LNG provider.


Ukraine doesn't consume Russian LNG. As of January 2025, the LNG transitting Ukraine for Russia has stopped because Ukraine refused to renew the deal.

No, Ukraine is not in a position to reclaim significant ground. The state of the war is such that any offensive action is ruinously expensive, and while Russia is willing to pay that price, the fact that they're shipping North Koreans in to pay that cost rather than generally mobilize speaks volumes about the state they're in. Interest rates are at 21%; food inflation at 30%; unemployment at 2%, which indicates a severe labour shortage. They're destroying their own economy to grab just a few more feet before it unravels at home.

Meanwhile, Rheinmetall is launching joint ventures and building factories in Ukraine because they have the most warfighting experience of anyone right now and are leading the world in drone combat. Ukraine is still not conscripting anyone under 25, which is a large pool of recruits they've held in reserve. And after today, Europe is making a conspicuous show up increasing spending and standing behind Ukraine.

They can't kick Russia out, but they can certainly hold on longer than Russia with the ongoing support of Europe, and the way Zelensky was treated today has been a huge morale boost for standing firm.



Yes, plus Ukraine learnt a lesson when the GOP stalled aid and they ran low on supplies, so they have stockpiled and domestic production has increased. It's a war of attrition and so both sides are hoping to keep going until the other collapses. The US withdrawing support is a victory for Russian, but it won't end the war. What happens with sanctions might, but also without the US telling them what to do the gloves will be off Ukraine.

So much for stopping the war in 24hrs. Trump's plans were never going to work there, and both Russian and Ukraine were going to try and make it look like the failure was not their fault - guess Russian won that particular battle, maybe it was never even a contest.



This is not a popular analysis. Russia has ramped up their war machine significantly over the last 2 years and have been successfully grinding Ukraine down. They can and will continue to do this. They’ve reoriented their economy around sustained military production, and the tariffs issued against Russia by the US and EU have proven to be ineffective.


Most of the money the USA has spent went to arms manufacturers. I imagine there's still working on producing and sending the arms.


EU alone has provided more than the US, add UK and NO, and the difference is substantial.


> Ukraine’s situation is better than many people realize

What makes you say that? I thought it was generally agreed that Ukraine has been on the back foot for a while now. People used to be quite optimistic about Ukraine recovering the occupied territories.



Ukraine isn't likely to recover much territory. But Russia will have a hard time taking more territory. At this point the war favors the defenders in either direction. Both sides are dug in and attackers get hammered by drones.


The back foot is not a terrible thing. The rate of Russian advantages is very costly and slow.


Yes. But it's like any un-even fight.

Russia was supposed to win easily right away. There is a huge size difference.

But if the little guy, even thought has been on back foot since the beginning, has lasted 10 rounds, and still hitting back. They are on the back foot. But now it starts looking like a win could happen. The underdog wins the crowd right? Now looks like US is the bully.



Current (by some of course) long-term analysis is that Ukraine is better commited to a long-term strategy of fiercely defending its rights, and it can grind Russia long term.

If you like Game Theory, is more as if Ukraine is much more prone to Total War than Russia possible will. Russia is spending their own GDP maintaining the war, Ukraining is "spending" its infrastructure but has foreign money being poured in.

That's why USA withdraw by Trump is so important to Russian interests.



There are two truths when it comes to Ukraine. The one quietly stated in dispassionate terms by actual military and geopolitical analysts which is that in the long run Ukraine loses in virtually every scenario, but it’s in everyone except Ukraine’s best interest to drag it out and for the West to weaken Russia via aid without the political fallout of actually putting boots on the ground.

Then there’s the “Ukraine will win as long as we keep sending aid” truth that the pubic needs to believe in order to accomplish that goal of weakening Russia since the alternative is Ukraine still loses but Russia doesn’t suffer for it.

I suspect someone misguidedly told Trump the first one, and his takeaway was that if Ukraine loses anyway, why should the American taxpayer be funding needless deaths.



This does not account for what can happen in Russia itself. There's this widespread belief that Russia is stable, no matter what.

If that were true, why would Putin take such extreme care for the elites in Moscow and St Petersburg? What is he afraid of? We don't need to know exactly what, but we can conclude he probably has a good reason.

Russia is not stable. The economy is creaking. Unsound, favourable loans are being made to corrupt companies who pocket as much cash as they dare while they deliver as little they can, Soviet style. Something is gonna give eventually, probably to the sound of drones over Moscow becoming the new normal.



Credit to Biden who set the tone. He was very fast and forceful in backing Ukraine even when the general assumption was that they had no chance. Europe was willing to step up since then and will have to carry them from now on.


He was pretty wishy washy and would never say he'd like Ukraine to win and get their land back. The UK generally led at the start sending missiles and tanks and the Biden was embarrassed into matching it.


If only that credit had any weight against his equally quick decision to fund a Zionist genocide against Palestine, and engage in administrative subterfuge, Doublespeak and Ministry of Truth type shit about the true nature of the conflict.


You've see the weird Trump Zionist video, right?


The insane AI-generated one he posted to his socials the other day outlining his vague plan to profit off the suffering of Palestinians by building a utopia resort? What a world we are living in.


[flagged]



It's a weird world that objecting to genocide makes you an antisemite now.

Don't support Netanyahu's weaponization of the word antisemite. It endangers Jews everywhere, and does not help Israel. It only helps Netanyahu silence his critics.



Some people cannot understand that a country, its people, and its government are all completely separate things. Other people pretend not to understand.

Regardless of which, the person you're replying to has decided to be on the wrong side of history. I will not be shamed into silently supporting genocide in the name of a made-believe invisible man in the sky.



“the US, in siding with Russia, may be betting on the wrong horse”

This is delusional. Russia would’ve bulldozed Ukraine without US support. What county is under US sanctions? What country is receiving US weapons? Which, to be sure, is the correct choice. And having public spars with Ukraine is not.

But the fact that someone just typed this out and posted it is just so delusional. The fact that people upvoted this is delusional.

On March 16, 2014, the President issued Executive Order 13661, which expanded the scope of the national emergency declared in Executive Order 13660, and found that the actions and policies of the Government of the Russian Federation with respect to Ukraine undermine democratic processes and institutions in Ukraine; threaten its peace, security, stability, sovereignty, and territorial integrity; and contribute to the misappropriation of its assets.

…Therefore… I [Trump]… am continuing… Execute Order 13660.

https://public-inspection.federalregister.gov/2025-03462.pdf

https://www.ukrainianworldcongress.org/trump-prolongs-sancti...

I don’t know why this pisses me off so much. Ostensibly we agree broadly. It’s just, HN really used to have such good nuanced and factual discussions, even outside tech. Now it’s all just raw anger.



There's a difference between "siding with Russia" and siding with negotiated peace.

Many people seem to think that the US, and to a lesser extent the EU, should fund this war indefinitely. However, the US clearly does not benefit from a direct war with Russia, and while we may gain from a proxy war, choosing not to fund it does not equate to “siding with Russia.”



Negotiated peace was what Russia and Ukraine had before, and Russia unilaterally broke it.

That is why the focus now is on security guarantees, which the U.S. is refusing so far. Without those, anything negotiated is a gift to Russia, specifically the gift of time to regroup and re-arm for another attack later on.

Lasting peace is not created by concessions, it is created when instigators believe they have more to lose than to gain from further violence.



US security guarantees are probably not worth the paper they are written on.


It is an absurd position that the US should be on the hook to indefinitely pay for any war anywhere in the world forever, and if they attempt to negotiate peace while pulling out of that war that they are siding with the opposition.


The problem is not that the U.S. is trying to negotiate for peace, the problem is that the administration is doing a hilariously bad job of it by giving up all leverage right off the bat.


We don't have any leverage against Russia. America has no appetite to fight them directly. If Ukraine were more effective at hurting Russia where it counts, then we might have leverage but the last few years have shown that they are not capable of that.


US should be on the hook to indefinitely pay for a particular war that resulted out of a diplomatic agreement (Budapest memorandum) that effectively prevented Ukraine from defending itself by making it surrender its nukes in exchange for nebulous security guarantees that weren't honored by US.


I think it's a fine rule of thumb but what does Putin have to gain from negotiating with Zelenskyy who he is seen as a Western puppet orchestrated as legacy of US intel agency involvement? (Which we admitted is true…)

People in this thread are completely incapable of seeing any legitimacy in any Russian concerns about Ukraine.



Whether someone's concerns are legitimate is in the eye of the beholder, but actions can be directly observed. Unilateral violent invasion must not become a legitimate tactic again. It was the norm for centuries, and excluding it resulted in the fastest rise in global living standards in history--including in the U.S. and Russia.


Do you recommend violent 2014 coups instead? That is our position on Ukraine, officially.


The coup happened before 2014, when Yanukovich took over the supreme court and reverted the country's constitution.


The US was literally created the same way.


Yes, actually, that’s how a lot of modern states got founded.


legitimate is in the eye of the beholder is right!


I'm just raising concerns! With a howitser.


So NATO is literally trying to kill Putin, what formal legal avenue would you like Russia to take?

Decades of NATO enlargement. What do you expect? Poke bear enough and it will bite you! But don’t be shocked…



Putin could have kicked back and enjoyed his dacha like other less powerful dictators do all over the world, but no, he had to write a "scientific" treatise about Ruski Mir and how the Ukraine isn't actually a thing. He wants a legacy.

Well, he got it and whatever happens in the war, Russia is cooked. It's never coming back from this.

It will either fracture from the war going badly, or it will become a vassal state of China, and ironically, perhaps the US, the way things are going with the White House these days.



The other powerful “dictators” get dragged through the streets or hanged for daring to enjoy an economic system outside the US dollar. Putin knows this and so should you.


It's very easy. To not get dragged in the streets as a dictator, you need a) nukes and b) chill in your dacha.

Putins actions now actually exposed himself to the dragged-in-the-streets treatment, by his own people. But it's all worth it, because of Ruski Mir.



> That is why the focus now is on security guarantees, which the U.S. is refusing so far.

This seems obvious to me, but is apparently not obvious to many here.... America (no country really) can guarantee Ukrainian security without risking WWIII, and frankly there's no reason to. At the end of the day, from a non-Ukrainian standpoint, it doesn't really matter who administers the land that today is Ukraine.



When the “negotiated peace” is “Russia gets everything they want, you give us every dime and your treasury, and we don’t promise to actually help you when Russia attacks again after we let them re-arm for as long as they like”…. That isn’t a peace deal, it’s virtually unconditional surrender.


Under what circumtances is the US allowed to pull out of a war they didn't start, which does not directly involve any US interests, in which we have already invested $110bn? Never? Not until we spend another $500bn we don't have?


The USA certainly is involved, they signed the Budapest Memorandum.


To be brutally frank, then you shouldn't have stopped Europe and the EU from building an independent military for the last few decades.

Like, it's totally fine that the US wants to return to isolation, but don't expect to keep all the benefits of the post 45 world order if you do so.

If I were a US citizen I'd probably be more concerned about the upcoming oil tariffs from Canada, but whatevs.



No one is arguing that the US isn't allowed to pull out.

But "negotiating" a treaty with the other side and then claiming that that treaty is the final word on the war is atrocious. That's what's crazy. Not ending US involvement, but trying to say that Ukraine must stop fighting.

Now, I also think the US should keep supporting Ukraine, but that's a totally different topic.



This isn’t pulling out. It’s embarassing an ally on the world stage while acting like the spoiled toddler and Putin asset that he is. This is not normal. This isn’t even bad. This is outside politics and just flat out treasonous.


The US has literally sided with Russia in the UN.


so did Israel.


The US has sided with Russia against European and Western civilisation. Don’t understate what we are witnessing. The betrayal of civilisation is almost complete.


I think it's the characterization that Ukraine started the war that makes people feel a sentiment that is aligned with Russia.


Yes, there's a difference, and what Trump is doing is clearly siding with Russia. His "negotiated peace" is neither negotiated nor peace. It's a surrender.

You don't have to support Ukraine indefinitely; only until Russia stops. Your options are to support Ukraine until Russia stops, or to surrender until Russia stops.



Are you under the impression that at some point Russia will simply say “well it was worth a try”, and retreat home?


Not impossible since something similar has already happened in Vietnam (at least once) and in Afghanistan (at least twice)


No. Not at all. There will come a point when Russia will stop the war because either Russia is completely exhausted and on the verge of collapse, or Putin is dead or removed from power. And chances are those two will go together.


If Putin is removed from power, it won't be with somebody more friendly to the west.


Depends on who does the removing. It could go a lot of different ways, but even if it's someone from his own government who is hostile to the west, they're still likely to use it as an excuse to end the war.


And you don't think Russia will escalate to tactical nukes in Ukraine before that point?


No


Why not?


It's mind blowing to me to see the left being the war mongers now. That used to be the mantle of the right, but hey, here we are.

The arguments I see for the US staying involved are the same hand wavy ones used in Vietnam - "better to fight them over in Asia then in America". It was a weak argument then, and it's a weak argument now.

The people that helped fan the flames of this war don't give one crap about Ukraine. What they care about is the neocon policy of "do anything to keep America's rival weak". So funding a war that Ukraine pays the price for works just fine.

The truth is that the war is going to end eventually and it's not going to be Russia capitulating. So rather than a hundred thousand more dead might as well find a solution.

Seems like a pretty rationale decision to me.



I do not think you can compare this conflict with Vietnam. US army went into Vietnam, while Ukraine is fighting a US rival with their own military, but they do use US provided equipment.

General public in Europe didn't see US as actively involved, or at least didn't see it until the new administration said it would end the conflict. This is when Trump administration started getting into "talks with Russia" and offering Ukraine "mineral deals". While US might have tried to do that even before, it was not discussed openly by presidents.

This war is going to flame out eventually. Lessons learned in this one will be used for the next one, which is going to hurt even more.



> There's a difference between "siding with Russia" and siding with negotiated peace.

There is absolutely no difference, when the US is negotiating that peace only with Russia, without Ukraine in the room.

With Trump administration officials not able to name a single compromise they’ve asked from Russia.

If the “negotiated peace” is “I asked the country that invaded you what they want, and you must do everything they asked for”, that’s not negotiation.

I will never understand how people can be so quick to abandon independence nations, and are so willing to bow to dictators. You would cheer Chamberlain submitting to Hitler as he launches an invasion as a momentous day for peace. You would be wrong then, and you are wrong now.



"stop advancing" is the compromise asked from Russia


They already stopped advancing 6 months ago.


Exactly... so what's the purpose of continuing the fight and killing Russian and Ukrainian men for no reason? This forum used to be a strong supporter of men's rights, but apparently these disappear once we dehumanize them via international relations. There's literally no reason for any individual Russian or Ukrainian man to die right now, since we all agree that no territory is being gained or lost.


There are 2 important reasons.

The reason for Ukrainian men to die, is to protect their families from being tortured by Russians when the Russians take another city.

The reason for Russian men to die, is to not be murdered by their own officer.



Is that why Ukrainian men are being dragged kicking and screaming off the streets?


Russian and Ukrainian men would stop dying if Russia withdrew its military from Ukraine.


I disagree with this post, but it’s very disheartening to see that comments that are polite and well-made are being downvoted as if they are trolls.


Europe is happy to let others do the fighting and dying for them. They want Ukraine to fight the Russians so they don't have to. Sounds like a continent of cowards.


Are you calling for armed conflict between nuclear powers ?


Yes. If you don’t stand up now, you’ll just be in the same boat later with fewer allies.


World needs to help out Ukraine because if Ukraine falls it shows that you should never give up your nuclear weapons for any agreement or treaty. They are just pieces of paper that guarantee nothing. This will just lead to more countries getting nukes which means higher likelihood of a nuclear war.


> World needs to help out Ukraine because if Ukraine falls it shows that you should never give up your nuclear weapons for any agreement or treaty.

This is, unfortunately, already the case. No country will ever fully trust such treaties again, and we are closer than ever to a new era of nuclear proliferation.



So in the end of the day, NK and Iran's decision to develop WMD was the right choice?


It is the rational choice for their own self interest, yes of course. It used to not be necessary for most countries in the world. But now there is no good alternative to having your own nukes if you don't want to be invaded by others.


I'm gonna get flak for this, but both Trump and Biden are heavily to blame for nuclear proliferation. Trump due to his actions against Iran in ripping up the nuclear deal just because he didn't like the person who negotiated it in combination with his decision to assassinate Soleimani. But Biden is just as much to blame due to his refusal to do anything of consequence when Russia broke the agreements of the Budapest Memorandum. We should have had boots on the ground when they invaded, but we waffled back and forth on selling them 50 year old weapons technology for months and now years. Unacceptable, and now the whole world knows that the major nuclear powers can't be trusted to come to anybody's aid.


I had to Wikipedia the memorandum to even know what it was, but wasn't Obama president in 2014 when Russia first breached it? Asking honestly, was that not a crucial failure but Biden's response (or lack of one) in 2022 was crucial?


Yes, I consider Obama to also be to blame somewhat. But in practice, the situation with the 2014 invasion was a lot more complex to respond to. Russia quite successfully obscured their involvement in the first couple of days...all signs pointed to Russia but they denied involvement and the little green men wore no Russian insignia, so it could have just as easily been framed as internal separatist activity, which was the Russian intent. It actually took a couple of weeks before it was crystal clear that Russia was behind everything. By then, Crimea was already occupied.

The war in Donbas was only a little bit more clear. Even though Russia's fingerprints were all over every action there, there was also no doubt that there was significant Ukrainian separatist activity, and even the most resolute of allies will hesitate to defend their allies from separatist activity.

With Biden, we saw the buildup, knew it was going to happen, and had been warning Ukraine that it was going to happen. We saw it for what it was on day one without any equivocation. We just did nothing about it.



Yes, Obama also bears a lot of the blame for this. If US reacted properly back in 2014 (or at any later point before 2022), the 2022 invasion wouldn't have happened.


Germany is now outright advocating that France replace US nuclear weapons on Western European soil with its own.

Charles de Gaulle is somewhere under a tombstone grinning ear to ear saying "I told you so."

Very strange times.

https://kyivindependent.com/france-could-send-nuclear-armed-...



Honestly, thank God that the French always worried about the US. Europe would be much worse off now without them.


> They are just pieces of paper that guarantee nothing.

You just noticed? Rules/treaties are useless unless you have the power to enforce them.



True. Non-proliferation is dead, killed three years ago. Only when Ukraine gets Russia to the point of a Compiègne Forest railroad car end (remember how much of Germany had been occupied at that point?) there is hope for a future without widespread nuke availability.


Dumb nitpicking, sorry:

The railroad car was used in 1918 and in 1940. In both cases Germany was unoccupied, in WW1 because the war was fought on French and on Flandern fields, in 1940 because it was the beginning of the war.

You're possibly thinking of the German surrender, first in Reims, then a day later again in Berlin.



> it shows that you should never give up your nuclear weapons for any agreement or treaty

This is something every related country already knows, think of Pakistan and North Korea. Are you expecting China and India to drop their nukes because of some nice treaty?

> World needs to help out Ukraine...

... to achieve peace ASAP, because thousands of lives are being lost.



This is exactly right. Current US allies should not trust the United States to stand with them at least for the next four years or so.

I would go further than that and say you can't trust the US for anything, ever. The United States will not keep long term commitments for more than four years at a time. If you're lucky, or unlucky depending on which side you're on, that cycle will last 8 years.



agree, trade gets screwed too. I guess sometimes democracy means we get what we deserve lol


[flagged]



> American's won't come and die for us

Not one person ever expected American blood to be spilled in Ukraine. Framing the opposing side with having these thoughts is arguing in bad faith. And what peace is there in letting a bully get away with the spoils? What's going to stop them from doing it again?

And yea the US didn't technically start the war, but if Ukraine didn't give up their nukes because of assurances by the US, then they wouldn't have been in this situation.



Because all the allies signed a treaty promising exactly that: we'll come and die for you. It's the whole point of an alliance! You don't consider someone an ally if you can't count on them to show up!


No the allies signed the treaty because they desperately needed Americas protection. They were looking for us to protect them, not for them to do anything for us. NATO was never a treaty of equals. It was America flexing its might and Europe having to concede. Europe has tried to play it off like they are "allies" but that is too strong a word as that implies the would actually be able to do something, which at the time they couldn't.

Also please note that Article 5 of the NATO treaty doesn't obligate the US to actually do anything. We can take any "Action It Deems Necessary". We are not obligated to send troops, money or material. There is no timeline for when we must take action, nor is there an automatic declaration of war. The whole thing is we can do what we want when we want.



Part of that treaty was they had spending requirements to meet as well. Yet that gets frequently forgotten by the parties who didn't meet those obligations. It is like Europe wants all the benefits of the treaty but don't feel compelled to keep up their end of the agreement.

Because they didn't keep their end of the agreement this means a greater burden would fall on America if we actually got lassoed into another European war. It seems the height of hypocrisy for Europe to demand America do the hard part in wartime when Europe couldn't even be bothered to do the easy part in peacetime.



First, 2% is a guideline, not a requirement. No one is required to spend 2% of GDP, which is an inherently fluctuating target anyway.

Second, European underspending has been by American design. Europe spent decades being told to rebuild their economies and states and not worry because the US nuclear umbrella protected them. This redounded to the US in terms of leading the world economy; it also gave the US tremendous influence in the EU.

In the 90s, Europeans talked about standing up an EU armed force. A small one, around 50,000 people, mainly to serve as an umbrella organization should EU forces come together for some mission, or to go to war as part of NATO. Clinton leaned on France and Germany to scuttle the idea. If Europeans became less dependent on the US, it meant less soft power for the US; less say in European affairs.

The secondary benefit of keeping everyone individually weak and collectively strong is that no European war was possible. The 80 years of peace in Europe following WW2 are the longest period of peace they've had in almost 400 years. Europe upping its defence spending directly threatened that and was actively discouraged until about a decade ago.

Europeans haven't been freeloading. They've wilfully subordinated themselves to the US security establishment for the collective benefit. To pretend otherwise is to be deeply ignorant of modern history.



This is a tough one as I agree with many of your points but not fully.

So here is my follow up. I don't believe it was Americas intention to keep Europe weak. That treaty was signed after WW2. Russian was at western Europe's door step and they were depleted from the war so they needed protection. They signed NATO treaty with America for that purpose. It was not a treaty of equals, it was America flexing its global power and Europe having to acquiesce. Over the years it has been retconned into an alliance of "allies" but really most of the "allies" were protectorates and not contributors.

I would counter that they have been freeloading. Europe absolutely willfully subordinated themselves for THEIR benefit. They have been getting national security for free for nearly 80 years. I am not ignorant of that. Yet I am no longer of the opinion that there is as much benefit to us as there once was. We have our own issues to attend to at home that we haven't had in the past. 100,000 Americans die every year from the drugs brought over by the cartels. We have 100,000's of illegals coming across our borders. We should prioritize our own defense for now and let Europe stand on its own. If Europe cant keep from having wars with each other than maybe the security the US was providing would be worth paying for.



This is a gracious response and I appreciate it.

Europe in total equals the US by numbers: population, GDP, military availability (though obviously not cohesiveness). It's not that the US wanted a weak Europe; they wanted weak individual states depending on each other and the US for collective security. No, it was never an alliance of equals; that's not the point. Collectively, NATO was incredibly strong, and what Europe offered was the battlefield. In the Cold War, the plans were that the Warsaw Pact forces would come streaming through the Fulda Gap and burst through NATO defences, crossing plains to the Rhine River and surging westwards across Europe. The NATO plan to handle this was to detonate nuclear land mines in the mountain passes, blocking them.

The NATO plan was to detonate nukes on German soil to take out the initial advance and block the second echelon of Soviet tank divisions (without Soviet nuclear weapons, tactical or otherwise, having been used). Germany OK'ed this plan. Upon detection of an imminent Soviet attack, special forces would, 12-24 hours in advance, emplace the nuclear mines (about the size of half a minivan) and prepare to detonate. NATO's warplans always anticipated first use of tactical nukes (because NATO numbers were always dwarfed by Warsaw Pact numbers) and the battlefield was always Europe. Every warplan always involved European allies taking the first blow and America responding.

Calling European states protectorates that begged for American protection really undersells the value of a relatively independent (western) Europe, both economically and militarily. Without Europe as the front line in a future war against the Warsaw Pact, America would either have to watch Europe be subjugated by the Soviet Union, or fight a war across the Atlantic without local cooperation (and the Pacific, where Japan/South Korea stood in for Europe). Europe offered intelligence co-operation and direct contact. Economically, Europe (and Japan) rebuilding quickly and participating in first world market economics was unbelievably beneficial to the US. If nothing else, the fact that the US dollar is the world's reserve currency is justification enough for US expenditures in the Cold War.

To go back to my original point, it was always mutually beneficial, and everyone knew it and was in agreement. Everyone was stronger together, and no one is in debt to anyone else.

If the cost/benefit calculus has changed, then that's just life: shit changes. All of the problems you mention are exclusive of America's (previous) commitment to NATO--American has more than enough money to attend to both. But the idea that Europe/the rest of NATO should suddenly be a defense subscriber to the US is just... America didn't bootstrap itself to the position it's in now. Its prior close workings with the free world have made all the difference, and for a while (and no longer) it seemed like everyone understood how it all worked.



I appreciate the thoughtful response it’s refreshing to have a real discussion rather than the usual knee-jerk reactions.

That said, I think you’ve actually made my point for me. You laid out how Europe is equal to the U.S. in GDP, population, and military availability, all of which just reinforces why it no longer makes sense for the U.S. to keep shouldering the majority of European defense.

If Europe is fully capable, then it should be fully responsible for its own security. That doesn’t mean alliances disappear, but it does mean the dynamic needs to shift. The U.S. has carried this burden for 80 years, and at some point, grown-up nations take full responsibility for their own defense.

I agree that NATO served its purpose mutually during the Cold War. But now that the geopolitical landscape has changed, so should the arrangement. The U.S. has pressing priorities at home, and if Europe is as strong and independent as you say, then it should have no problem stepping up.

If Europe wants full American protection, then maybe it’s time they start paying for it.



I think you're going to get your wish: the summit in London today is focussing exactly on "how does Europe proceed without depending on the US?" They're going to ramp up defense spending, and support of Ukraine, and France is already talking about lending its nuclear weapons to partner nations to establish broader deterrance. Between this and Trump's tariffs, the EU has been given a strong push towards independence, and is jumping on it.

Honestly, at this point I think NATO itself is over. Once the trust was broken, once Europe realized that they can't depend on the US, the alliance was a foreign policy option rather than a commitment. The loss of stability that implies scares me to death, though.



May I remind you that the last wars, which lasted multiple decades, were started by the US? Where you happily raped, tortured and murdered AND expected your allies to support you, which they did without throwing pathetic tantrums?

The US does nothing for free or out of goodwill, if you think this, you've been sniffing your own propaganda a bit too much and should try watching something other than Tucker Carlson, Fox or NewsMaxx.



I think our news cycles are very different. All I heard about from our allies in the wars was how they didn't want to be there and America should ramp them down. Also their contributions weren't exactly "overwhelming" aside from Canada and British they were more token then anything.

Line of "The US does nothing for free or out of goodwill" comes up all the time. Please tell me what country does? Then the next thing they do is go right into some form of name calling or denigration, just like you did.

Nothing in your response was about the main points of my comment. Which were firstly that America doesn't have to negotiate peace for/with Ukraine in a way that Ukraine really wants. Secondly because of how Americans feel they have been treated by Europeans over the last century a large portion of the population no longer views them as worthy allies, they feel more like fair weather supporters than allies tbh. So they feel it would be unwise to send our children to die for Europe's safety.

The last point is Europe has been neglecting its own commitments to NATO via its annual spending. So it feels like they are expecting free protection from the Americans which feels like a form of entitlement which leads back to the second point.

I get that these are contentious issues and controversial topics at times but trying to insult or insulate things about someone based on perceived political alignment is not what this site is about.



> the US can turn from ally to bully

This has been par for the course for decades. They used to be on good terms with Saddam Hussein, Gaddafi, Iran after they couped Mossadegh. Heck, they even armed and trained Osama Bin Laden to fight the soviets in Afghanistan. It has always been a deadly gambit to ally yourself with the United States.

I'm not saying it's universally the case of course. For every Saddam there's a Pinochet, for every Gaddafi there's a Suharto. But the fact that the US can drop an ally just like that should not be a surprise to anyone.



Traditionally the US turned from ally to bully in a predictable manner though. Ally with the Soviet Union, expect hostility, even if your previous right-leaning government had been their best buddies. Invade another country the US also regarded as a regional ally and oil supplier and you might not last long.

The switch to verbally attacking Ukraine and the rest of Europe whilst fellating Putin is an altogether different one, and one much more damaging to US soft power than its past belligerence.



I'm curious where you see Libya fitting in this pattern.

Personally I'm more inclined to believe that the ally-turned-foe's invasion serves as a convenient excuse for the US to attack, rather than the root cause. One thing that at least Gadaffi and Saddam have in common is nationalizing their oil industry. This to me seems like a much more believable reason for US aggression.



Gadaffi was a nominal socialist who kicked the US military out, aligned himself with the Soviet Union, proposed pan-Arabist and pan-African alliances to exclude the west and was implicated in bombings of US targets, undermining US-allied causes overseas etc. And yes, he nationalized the oil industry early in his rule. Even if he briefly achieved some sort of rapprochement (mostly with the EU) when he'd run out of allies, he's pretty much the exemplar of how to piss off the US, and so them helping finish his regime off fits the pattern perfectly.


I don't know if I'd phrase it as the "power" to do whatever it wants.

Anyone can always do whatever they want. And the only way there aren't repercussions on some level are if you're some kind of god-like being sealed in the equivalent of closed terrarium.

Does the US have power? Sure. But the US could act disgracefully even if it didn't have power.

The framing I'd give this is that the US is trying to extort Ukraine without actually bringing anything to the table, and all it's going to accomplish is making the US itself less powerful, less reputable, the rest of the world more convinced that nuclear weapons need proliferate because otherwise invasions are on the table, and a litany of other things that will basically make the US weaker over time.



I would go further: this is the end of the US. The pieces haven't hit the ground yet, but they are falling. NATO cannot last when Europe doesn't trust the US. Nations cannot trust that trade agreements will last beyond the whims of the moment. Federal workers are being sacked indiscriminately. The executive branch has openly stated that they will not obey the rule of law if it is against them, even after packing the courts. What is left?

There is something left: the land, the people. But not the country, that is something new.



This.


The future of NATO is secure. It just won't include the US. Whether that exclusion is done implicitly or explicitly remains to be seen. The US has put itself in the position where it has no allies and no peaceful trading partners. That's not going to work out well for them, regardless of how much military might they believe they have.


NATO is an alliance of 32 democracies and from time to time some of those will vote in unfortunate leaders. I guess the remainder will have to carry on. I doubt the US will remain this way after the next election.


The EU is going to be thinking long and hard if the US really is so much more friendly than China.


I'm concerned the US is turning from ally to enemy of the EU.


They’re not though… it’s just that endless billions being sent for a war that Europe won’t proportionally help support has to end. How much more money and lives will be wasted in Ukraine?


The killing won't stop until Russia is firmly stopped. There is no peace without completely and permanently pacifying Russia. They will attack again and again until we render them unable to continue. The best time to do this is thirty years ago, the second best time is now.


Who is "we"? Are you a soldier in Ukraine? More death is not going to help and neither side will stop. The only chance to stop killing is an agreement.


More death wouldn't, but a solid established and supported promise of retaliation in case of aggression from either side would.

And "we" here means the democratic world - solidarity is the only way to deter bullies - if Russia knew that EU/US would retaliate in case of an attack on Ukraine, they wouldn't invade.

But of course if you yourself is a bully, you will do everything in your power to cause feuds. And here we are, oh well.



I know lots of Ukrainians. They all know that life under this sort of "agreement," which is actually Ukraine paying reparations for a war it didn't start, for zero security guarantees, was beyond moronic. It wasn't an agreement it was mere capitulation to Russia to continue genocide.

Actual real Ukrainians are fighting, and signing back up even after being injured.

Ukraine is on "death ground" and has nowhere to go except to fight to survive. Ukrainians know that. Russia knows that. I'm not sure that those that spout Russian propaganda know that, and for example I doubt you know any Ukrainians with questions like yours, but you sure do sound like the Russian propaganda lines that get trotted out to Americans.



That's what they thought about appeasing Hitler - why would peace talks stop Putin from taking even more territory? It wouldn't and it wont.


At least the US isn't threatening to annex land of an EU member state, that would be a real scandal.


I'm assuming that was sarcasm :) Since Trump and his followers seem to save that type of posturing for Canada. But I guess he's just trolling to own the libs, like a president does...


No, he said the US should have Greenland too, which is territory of Denmark.


I can't believe I forgot about that episode :/ This season is just so chock-full of content.


The writers are very creative, yet the overall arc of the season is so very cliche.


I believe the clip of the interview disproves that point. If money was the problem (or, more generally, a protracted investment in a conflict perceived as senseless) then a sobering talk would be the way - think of the speech that Biden gave when he announced that the US was withdrawing from Afghanistan for similar reasons, fully aware of what the likely consequences would be.

This interview, on the other hand, has the US VP talking on top of a head of state while chastising him for not being grateful enough while pressuring him to take a deal that would effectively surrender Ukraine to US and Russian interests. Whatever the objective of this meeting was, "a fair result for Ukraine and its dead" did not seem to be it.



Europe has spent more to help Ukraine than the US has.


Ask Russia?


Listen to JD Vance speak about Europe, and listen to the way he bullied Trump into increasing bullying in this meeting, and you'll never think that.

If Ukraine signed this deal they would lose so many more lives than with what Zelensky did. I can't imagine how cowardly and easily fooled you'd have to be to think that giving into Russia will make the genocide stop.



Has anyone actually watched the entire conversation and not just the clip near the end?

I encourage everyone to do so:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7pxbGjvcdyY&pp=ygUbZnVsbCB6ZWx...



did it change your opinion somehow?


The original clips I saw made it look more like Zelensky was behaving unreasonably. Watching more of the context, it seemed more like things escalated.

Watching Trump and Vance and others posture and try to score political points while you could just see the depth of exhaustion and horrors witnessed in Zelensky's face… I don't even know how to feel about it all.



I found it deeply uncomfortable to watch, to be honest. Both Trump and Vance acted like playground bullies.

Maybe that's what a bunch of citizens want? Pretty depressing, if so. I will say that I'm reevaluating my countries alliances and (lack of) security capability.



It is interesting how the US's influence in the rest of the world is declining every day, and that it appears the main entity trying to tear it down as fast as possible is the US.

I don't get it.



Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but I was under the impression this is what most of the world wanted? And if not the world, then most elites in the US?

I speak both from public and personal history: when American leadership signed its various trade treaties with China back in the 90s and earlier, opening itself up to the swift transfer of manufacturing to its one-time enemy, was American leadership not signaling its strong desire to diminish American power for the sake of peace?

And on a personal level: my hippie parents had often railed against American imperialism and voted for candidates they thought could stop it. What did they (and other similarly-minded folks) think would happen once America withdrew from the world stage? Do people who think the same way today believe America will grow stronger by pulling back?

Having been around since the late 60s, I can only say this attitude has been in the making for a long time. I can't point to college sit-ins or Nixon going to China or Carter turning over the Panama Canal or the US-China Relations Act (2000) or anything specific stating 'this is the definitive moment', but this desire for a weaker, more isolationist America is neither surprising nor accidental for those of us who've been watching it grow. It's ultimately what my parents and their contemporaries wanted. It's... dream fulfillment.



My thoughts on this is it appears the 2nd Trump administration is obviously better for everyone _outside_ of the US (with the exception of Ukraine, Syria, Palestinians), and is lowering outcomes for groups _inside_ the US.

I think the current administration's actions are backed by the desire to kick out all immigrants, build a fortress wall around the US, and I guess wait out the end times.

Us lefties often say the best way to lower immigration rates is make other countries a more desirable place to live. I'm not sure if this has ever been put into practice though.

Regarding China, the European and American financial relationship is the largest in the world. Chinese trade with Europe is tiny. Sounds like that is all about to change.



I'm assuming you're on platforms dominated by Americans and Westerners so you're not seeing it much, but I can assure large portions of the world are quite happy to see America's downfall in real-time.

Personally, I hope to see China fill the void America will leave behind; the world will be better for it.



I think a more likely outcome is nobody filling the hole America leaves behind, and the incentives of a multipolar world are much more brutal then that of a unipolar world, as a result I expect a rise of new nuclear armed states.


I think they are brutal for America in particular, but not so much for the developing world. Happy to be wrong about this.

But I do believe that is why Americans are so frightened of a multipolar world (or really, any world where the US isn't the singular superpower).



No not at all. The vast majority of Americans are uninterested in being world policemen when it means it's mainly American boys (and girls, but mostly boys, let's be real) dying in foreign wars.

The Chinese are not stupid enough to send their kids to die in war, and even if they were, they at least have an excess of young males.



I'm not sure how whatever the vast majority of Americans are interested in has anything to do with my point, but...

> The Chinese are not stupid enough to send their kids to die in war

I see you already understand why China would be a better world leader than America!



Everyone's going to get what they want.


This is what Russia does when it buys off politicians. Brexit for the UK, and Trump for the US.

Make no mistake that the Republican party is bought out, through and through, by foreign powers.



What evidence do you have that Trump was "bought" by Russia?


Trump's business ties with Russia back from the 90s are pretty well documented, as well as his son talking about getting money from Russian banks.

Have you been living under a rock?



Please don't cross into personal attack.


I think the Trump family has been bought a lot harder by very wealthy Israel supporting Americans and the UAE. The Kushner stuff is well documented. There's checks moving around. Both parties on each end publicly announce huge real estate deals.

I can't point to anything concrete about Russia funding Trump.



There's a whole Wikipedia article going through some of it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_projects_of_Donald_Tr...


> But boy, will the nations of the world remember this -- how quickly the US can turn from ally to bully.

Nothing new, smart people knew that for a long, looong time. May I remind you it took Pearl Harbor to get the US into WW2.



Can you please inform me how the US bullied UK into mineral rights in WW2? We exported arms and equipment to them even before Lend-lease acts.

It would be true if you were to mention about our special flavor of freedom exportation during the cold war. However, this time Ukraine is a democratic nation being invaded by our biggest political rival, Russia.



We charged the UK quite heavily for our support. Quoting from (https://yarchive.net/space/politics/lend_lease.html)

In a political sense, well, that's much more debatable. The problem there is that because the US itself did not feel threatened, US aid came with a price tag: the impoverishment of Britain and the demolition of the trade barriers around the British Commonwealth. US aid was on a cash-only basis until Britain had spent all its hard-currency reserves (both gold and negotiable securities). Then came the Lend-Lease agreement -- arguably the point where the US truly entered the war -- and its price tag was explicit, although unadvertised: the agreement itself contains a clause stipulating the removal of the Commonwealth's trade barriers.



Cry me a river for the death of British (and Dutch and Belgium and, later, French) colonialism...


It'll look different but China will probably do the same deal some point this century.


No mineral rights: just gold up front.

The UK paid the US all it's gold reserves. Next it stole of the UK people's gold to use that to buy weapons.

The US was not giving the UK when it exported, it was selling. Lend lease came in once the UK ran out of gold. So the US gave them credit: which the UK tool until 2006 to repay.



The US had about 60% of the world's wealth after ww2. With that, their industrial base and with their "democratic" missions in South America for resources I'm amazed how fast they managed to squander it to make the rich richer.


It's true. Also, the UK has never repaid its WW1 debt to the US.

The US joined WW1 when it became clear that the UK would not be able to repay its debt to JP Morgan and its clients if Germany won. Of course, that was not the only reason, but it was a huge factor. (Source: Adam Tooze, The Deluge)

(London had, bizarrely, decided to bankroll the Russian and French war efforts in addition to its own, so its debts were vast.)



FDR was opposed to imperialism, and so his terms for our meager involvement prior to direct entry into the war were pretty steep, as were his terms for the postwar order. Truman backed off on some of that though.


Stealing radar tech (go read how Raytheon got started), and blocking the UK from nuke development tech after British scientists helped thoroughly the Manhattan Project are the ways the US bullied the UK during WW2.




It also took the White House being set on fire to understand the sovereignty of the land across its northern border. And now there's all this Trump talk of trying to invade once again.


I don't think I understand this comment


I saw on russian TV how they pretty much said "yea, trump may be an ally of ours now and do what we want but we must remember how they turned on ukraine and that they might turn on us"


Why are people acting as if there's nothing "different" going on here? Like this is all just driven by standard foreign policy choices, and the current US regime doesn't have some unique allegiance to Russia and its leader?


It's the step before "the US and Russia were always friends, they just misunderstood each other".


Sage advice.


These are verified charities list.

Help Ukraine: https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/wiki/charities/?share_id=xG...

Dont buy from Companies doing business with Russia: https://leave-russia.org/



You're making the assumption that US foreign policy isnt to parrot Russian foreign policy. There's no evidence to suggest this is not the case.


You are not aware of all evidence in existence, and what "is evidence for" something is a subjective matter, downstream from your conditioned biases.

These conversations are a train wreck, I don't understand how people expect to stop war if you can't be bothered to even try to speak truthfully.



Do yourself a favour and look up the origins of the stories Trump has been saying - Zelensky a dictator - Messing with WW3 - Not wearing a suit - VIP tours of the front line

They're all Kremlin lines/tropes commonly found in state media.

And then TASS was allowed in to the Whitehouse and PA News aren't?



The US military was concerned about this scenario long before and raised concerns back in 2011. They predicted why someone like Trump would would come in power and question the purpose of NATO. But it was not taken seriously by NATO allies at that time. Obama even wanted European allies to be able to launch their own military missions with just US as a support role. The Libya interventions was supposed to be a test of that.

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/natosource/text-of-spe...



Yep. The warnings have existed for a long time, but most European states have continued to ignore the hallmarks.

Even Poland only started rearming after Kazynski's plane was shot down in Smolensk in 2010 (edit; not shot down), Romania only (started after Crimea and it's implications of a similar incident in neighboring Moldova in 2014, Turkiye began due interventions in Syria and Libya that lead to Turkish and Russian soldiers fighting against each other in 2012-15, and Netherlands after over a hundred of their citizens were shot down in an Air Malaysia Flight in 2015-16 (forgetting the exact date)

Trump is absolutely wrong in publicly abandoning our European allies, but this is something every administration since 2008 has been saying would eventually happen.

The failed UK-France intervention in Libya should have been the warning call (France and UK's air forces couldn't disable Libya's A2AD and ran out of precision muntions, forcing the Obama admin to intervene and spark the Benghazi crisis which helped bring Trump into the Oval Office in 2016). In fact, that incident probably further emboldened Russia as Libya's military apparatus was heavily Russian/Soviet in armament and strategy.



Uhm, that Polish plane wasn’t shot down. Don’t spread silly conspiracy theories. Polish military spendings were rising steadily since long before the accident, but a significant increase happened after Russian full scale invasion on Ukraine.


Fair point about the Smolensk Incident - confused it with the Netherlands incident - but it was that incident that sparked Poland's fears about Russia again [0], and most of Poland's military buildup and modernization only began in the 2012-13 period after the partnership with South Korea kicked in [1][2]

[0] - https://carnegieendowment.org/europe/strategic-europe/2015/0...

[1] - https://www.president.pl/president-komorowski/news/poland-so...

[2] - https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/10736700.2020.1...



When people tell me the Russians deliberately plotted to crash the Smolensk flight, I ask them to read

https://admiralcloudberg.medium.com/all-the-presidents-men-t...



As I said in my edited post, it was a typo where I messed up the impact of MH17's shoot down on Netherlands and the Smolensk incident.


Not only that, now only insane nation won't try to get nukes.

Expect insane nukes proliferation.



> how quickly the US can turn from ally to bully

As if this lesson hasn't been conveyed for the past 30 years.

How anyone can sit here after the Iraq war and say any of this with a straight face is beyond me.



I saw a lot of people justifying Trump's moves because "the US shouldn't be spending so much money helping Ukraine in the war."

I understand that argument, but what about security guarantees? Zelensky has been simply asking for security guarantees so that Putin doesn't start another war in a few years (like he did in 2014 and 2022). Why can't Trump provide that? Why should we just trust Putin's word? Or is there something I'm missing here?



Security guaranties is too much of a step up from Security Assurances [0] I guess.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum



Trump can't provide that because any "security guarantee" from the US would essentially translate into "send armed troops", which is something that would run counter to his campaign stance.


Isn't there a middle ground possible? For example, a guarantee, in law, that the US and Europe send military equipment to Ukraine if there is another war in the future?


USA could guarantee a deployment to European NATO countries large enough for them to be able to move much of their forced into Ukraine. And just guarantees on being able to buy armament would be useful. If there had been any ounce of political will something would have been possible.


A guarantee would be pretty cheap. Not a lot actually needs to be done as long as people believe that this guarantee will be honored.

That is, if the US wasn't currently in the business of eroding trust in any and all agreements they may have entered.



Nah, it'd be as useless as Obama's "red line" in Syria.


No one is going to believe any guarantees now anyway, so it's a moot point. The US no longer has the goodwill capital for agreements, only transactions.


For me it's an unfathomable stance.

A few years ago we kept making comparisons to Chamberlain appeasing to Hitler, inviting Hitler to keep expanding its territory at the expense of other sovereign nations in Europe, but at the same time made it very clear that Putin is no hitler and the comparison is too extreme.

Now it seems quite clear that the US under Trump is not willing to intervene in military fashion. For Russia, getting east-Ukraine in a year and waiting 3 years while ramping up its war economy to take the rest of Ukraine is a great outcome. For China, Taiwan is now a no-brainer as Trump declined to say whether he would intervene like Biden did. This is appeasement. Trump seems to want peace at any expense, he doesn't seem to recognize at all what the people of Ukraine have been willing to give their lives for, their country.

It's easy to have peace if you just surrender everything to a bully. Peace without justice is more like slavery. MLK said it right, there can't be peace without justice.



I suspect The Trump camp realise a peace deal acceptable to Ukraine isn’t viable. Trump having promised one would be easy means he needs an excuse.

Manufacturing a split with Zelensky gives them that excuse. Now they can turn off the tap of support to Ukraine, forcing them to capitulate, and blame Zelensky.

Meanwhile they can make a deal with Putin to split Ukraine between them. Putin gets East Ukraine, the USA gets the mineral wealth of West Ukraine. It’s win-win.



Most of the mineral wealth stuff is all in the Donbas, or a couple of kilometers from the front lines. I am unaware of much of anything like that in western Ukraine.

Historically most of the heavy industry, near the mineral deposits, has always been in eastern Ukraine. Agricultural stuff in western and central Ukraine. Putin would be perfectly happy w/ a Ukrainian only rump state centered around Lviv.



Make no mistake, this display was a disgrace, but... after the annexation of Crimea the EU (Germany) moved ahead with Nord Stream 2, we are culpable too, massively. Ironically there's a famous video of none other than Trump lambasting the Germans about it.


Let's hope that someone learned real politik is actually blind, short-term politik.


The US has been a bully since at least WW2. The US has been betraying "allies" for just as long.

Russia's invasion of Ukraine has been a godsend for US influence. Finland and Sweden joined NATO. The Russian military was exposed as a paper tiger. A huge portion of the Russian military's capability was destroyed without a single US military serviceman or asset being deployed. Russian energy exports to Europe (and the influence that gives them) have dropped to a mere fraction of what they were in 2020. Europe is now dependant on US LNG exports.

The second largest military in NATO is Turkey and Turkey is America's puppet. Turkey has been in direct military conflict with other NATO members (ie Greece) with the blessing of the US.

Ceding territory to Russia, which seems all but inevitable now, doesn't change the the security picture for Europe. Russia still can't occupy Ukraine. That was true before the invasion. It's still true now. They certainly can't roll into Poland let alone Germany and Western Europe.

The EU really has no interest in paying for their own security. Politically it's a nonstarter too with the right of far-right parties like National Front in France and AfD, AfD in Germany and Reform in the UK.



Lots of this is correct however Turkey isn't anyone's puppet, they're a wildcard if there ever was one. Lately they've been quite insistent that Crimea should not be ceded to Russia, for example. They're also certainly not going to tolerate a Russia/Iran axis in their neighborhood and they've been quite aggressive vs Russian forces that encroached their interests.


There's a world of difference between what Erdogan says and what he does. And you should only look at what he does.

For example, since October 7, Erdogan made lots of statements about how he was upset with the Israeli treatment of Palestinians. That was all for show. Something like 40% of Israel's energy comes from Azerbijan and transits through Turkey. Turkey could've cut that off. But they never would.

Likeise, Erdogan's family continued to trade with and make money from Israel.

Turkey buys a Russian anti-missile defense system [1] while selling Bayraktar drones to Ukraine and hosting US (technically NATO) nuclear weapons.

Turkey is consistently aligned with US foreign polciy with some minor exceptions that are really deviations tolerated because of Turkey's strategic importance and recognizing the need for Erdogan to maintain power.

[1]L https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/9/26/erdogan-turkey-coul...



> And you should only look at what he does.

Yes. Like sell a ton of drones to Ukraine, partner with Ukraine on producing drones, shooting down a Russian plane in Syria, conflict with Russian troops in Syria, etc...

They have been aligned with the US most of the time but they very clearly also have a mind of their own and that includes a lot of actions against Russia.



Must we endlessly fund a war that is in stalemate and will continue to savagely end the lives of military and civilian alike? Otherwise, we are a bully? Is it in our interest to continue to run up debt, send overseas ammunition and hardware? To what end? And for how long? I remember wondering the same during Iraq and Afghanistan. Is this really America's permanent responsibility, for any country in the world?

It's quite remarkable the change in America over a couple decades. In the 90s, the left was solidly pro-free-speech and anti-war. Anti-war sometimes to a fault, even. Maybe aside from some censorship effort of rap and Mortal Kombat, you could count on the left to defend free speech at nearly any cost.

Now, it is the left that seems interested in doubling down on wars, without any plan for escape, and of "reigning in" speech deemed by some as harmful.

I'm not here to say correct or incorrect. Pick your own ice cream flavor. My point is that it's striking how much the parties have flipped 180 degrees (on some issues).



> Is it in our interest to continue to run up debt, send overseas ammunition and hardware?

Whose economy gets the money spent? If it's ours—and it is—then yes, it's obviously in our interest to continue to run up debt.



It's not great to ignore inflation and debt. There's a long list of failed governments who tried.


> and of "reigning in" speech deemed by some as harmful.

Can you cite any legislative efforts anywhere in the USA by any elected Democrat that limits, coerces or in anyway "reigns in" speech of any sort?





This is a defensive war. This is the lesson we learned when the world did nothing to stop Hitler's initial aggression. This is the moment of truth. Doing nothing is easy, it's the default. We now know the possible consequences and we've made our mind to not let that happen again. Have we learned nothing?


No one is saying you are a bully for wanting to end the war.

You are a bully for the disgusting way Trump and Vance just treated Zelenksy



And they way they are trying to bully Ukraine into a minerals agreement and rebuilding agreement to strip Ukraine of everything it has. Trump doesn't care about peace, he wants to make money


If the war ends, that is peace. Do you believe Ukraine will be better off financially by continuing the war, even if it is on America’s credit card? They will not flourish in the present state, however noble they believe the effort is. War is not fair.


Zelensky is an adult, a leader of a country, who has many lives in his hands. He is not a baby that needs to be coddled.


As opposed to Trump, who is an adult, a leader of a country, who has many lives in his hands, and behaves like a baby that needs to be coddled.


I’m a bully for how someone I don’t know treated someone else I don’t know, because he happens to be the head of state of the country I live in?


You, as in the country.


I am not a country. Nor are countries sentient beings with intentions; they are abstract entities. “We” didn’t bully anyone — one or two specific people did.


Read the parent comment.

> Must we endlessly fund a war that is in stalemate and will continue to savagely end the lives of military and civilian alike? Otherwise, we are a bully?



Yes. Democracy means we are culpable for what our leaders do.


That is a very expansive understanding of democracy that would, for example, imply that indiscriminately targeting civilians in a war is justifiable.


No, it doesn't.


Ukraine has lost massive amounts of lives, territory, and foreign funding under his leadership; Zelensky effectively has zero negotiating power.

Where are the voices that simply want the war to end so people stop dying? It’s easy to say bully this and ally that from the comfort of your office while hundreds of thousands of people die in a strip of land most “supporters” couldn’t point out on a map. At this point there’s a collective ego tied to the outcome more than there is any care for the actual people involved.



Some things are worth fighting for you quisling.


As long as someone else does the fighting, right? Last I checked, the majority of Ukrainians themselves want a quick end to the war.

[1]: https://news.gallup.com/poll/653495/half-ukrainians-quick-ne...



I want a million dollars. Very much!

That doesn't mean I'll accept your proposal to rob a bank.



What a dogshit poll. There were three options given:

1. Ukraine should continue fighting until it wins the war.

2. Ukraine should seek to negotiate an ending to the war as soon as possible.

3. Don't know/Refused.

"Ukraine should surrender unconditionally" and "Ukraine should negotiate permanent security guarantees" and "Ukraine should fight its way into a better negotiating position" are all in the same bucket. This is maliciously bad poll design.



>how quickly the US can turn from ally to bully

This is not at all consistent with U.S. foreign policy. It is one regime, that clearly has different thoughts about our alliances. It's an anomaly or, more accurately, an aberration. And it's similar to what's happening here domestically as well.



> The EU is going to be thinking long and hard about the future of NATO now.

Thinking long and hard apparently is all the EU is capable of.

Trump's first term should have been more than enough to make the EU come to their senses. Now, we have tethered caps and the AI Act, but the EU still has no coherent vision or just even the slightest idea of how to move the continent forward instead of keeping it in the past.



The EU needs to get armed to the teeth and to pile up on nukes. The US cannot be trusted, half of the country is compromised and that's not something that will change any time soon, even after Trump goes to meet his creator.


There’s probably going to be a decade long build up for that to happen. European military industrial production could barely surge to the promised 1 million shells to Ukraine


France has nukes. But for nukes it doesn’t matter in practice if you have 10 or 1000. If you use one, it is one too many. It only matters that you have them.


I agree in principle, but I'd like to see more EU countries get nukes


Half the country isn't "compromised." We simply woke up to the fact that a continent of people that do nothing but mock and sneer at us refused to pay for their own defense, and we get nothing from it in return, other than having our exports tariffed at higher levels than EU exports to the US.

For the US, NATO is an obligation, of which the EU nations (with their lavish social spending and anemic defense spending) benefited from.

In 2014, the EU did NOTHING to help when Crimea was invaded. You continued to buy gas, and even bult new pipelines like Nordstream to continue to hand Putin money. I'm all for the EU to take on it's own protection and investing in militaries. World War II ended 80 years ago. Move on and grow up and pay for your own defense.



> We get nothing in return

Isn't most US NATO spending just hand-outs to the US defense industry?



The vast majority of Americans are skeptical of our military-industrial complex


You were buying influence by spending your money on your own military.

But I agree that the EU should never have relied on the US for its own defense, I really hope that will change now.



I wish more people would remember that Ukraine was once 3rd nuclear power in the world but agreed to give it all away in return for promise that US will defend it instead.

This is why Zelensky keep saying he doesn't want another paper.



I wish people would actually read the Budapest Memorandum and see what it actually promises. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum https://treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/Volume%203007/P...


Ukraine is in this war partially (largely? primarily?) due to United States foreign policy in the years since the "end" of the Cold War. No surprise Trump screws them over and doesn't honor our geopolitical debts tho.


It is not bullying to say that American monetary support means basically doing what the United States want you to do. This is basic human social interaction.


Let’s be real: NATO is already a farce at the moment. If Article 5 is triggered by a European nation, would Trump respond? Of course not.


There was an opinion poll amongst British on this and apparently even Brits don’t trust America anymore.

Only %44 believe that US will come to their help if Russia attacks UK.

Yougov: https://x.com/yougov/status/1893967204846063823?s=46



Heck, less than half of Western Europeans would fight to defend their own country[0]. In the UK, only a third of people surveyed would do so. That's less than those who believe that the US would come to their aid!

I don't think the blame is on America here.

[0]: https://www.gallup-international.com/survey-results-and-news...



Irrelevant. This measures trust towards USA to send their people who are willing to fight implied by them joining the military, not willingness to fight amongst the general public.


American here:

We don't care. Approximately 0% of the American public believes the UK would help us if we were invaded, because we have eyes and have seen how absolutely degraded the European militaries have become, outside of a few outliers like Poland and Turkey.

I worked in the Pentagon for 10 years, and went over to the UK about twice a year for work at RAF Mildenhall, which, of course, is primarily filled with USAF planes and airmen.

European nations stopped caring about defending themselves, and turned NATO into a charity of which they are the recipients.

More recently (2016-2021), I would travel to London on a regular basis to work with a team based out of an office in Shoreditch. The sentiment of the average Londoner to the US military was fairly negative, typically accompanied by a face that looked like they had just smelled a fart.

My son is 18. I don't want him being drafted into any war on behalf of a demoralized population that doesn't want to fight for their own country. It's morally reprehensible to expect us to subsidize a society that has imprisons citizens for social media posts and fines our tech companies every chance they can get.



Brits and Europeans died for America's last two wars, on a percentage basis more Dutch and Canadian troops died than Americans. Nearly 500 British troops died for your war.

Next time America asks for assistance, whether it's troops or firefighters I hope the attitude is reflected back and it comes with a costs+ invoice due up front.



Our next war is going to be in the Indo-Pacific, and the Diego Garcia is already a de facto American run base, and now going to be part of Marutius due to French and Indian lobbying [0], and because the UK deal was set to expire in 2036.

I'd trust the French more than the Brits in an Indo-Pac conflict, because they have actual stakes due to French Polynesia and Mayotte.

And if we're honest, it doesn't make sense for the UK to fight a Pacific war anyhow. The UK has constantly stepped up to help Ukraine and remains a very strong buttress against Russia. It's best if the UK remains a lynchpin for European security.

[0] - https://www.iris-france.org/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/ObsIn...



America not honoring another country's article 5 after America itself was the only country to call article 5... this attitude will absolutely spur nuclear weapons programs in countries across the world.


> Approximately 0% of the American public believes the UK would help us if we were invaded

This is just silly nonsense.

In various polls the US and UK poll quite similarly, in that the percentage of people who believe their country should honour article 5 in case of an attack on a NATO ally, polls about 2x greater than the percentage of people who believe their country shouldn't.

So approximately 0% is nonsense.

But besides the fact that the beliefs of the US population isn't 0%, look at the reality: the UK went to Iraq and Afghanistan to fight alongside the US on foreign soil, while most of the world didn't and opposed those wars. What makes you think the UK won't fight alongside the US if it was under attack on its own territory? It makes no sense.

The US being invaded essentially means there is a world war. The idea that the UK would try to stay neutral instead of follow its treaty requirements with its greatest historical ally ever, and bow to its new ruler, is just silly.

As for the UK military's prowess, it is obviously not what it used to be, in relative terms. But to compare it unfavourably to Poland and Turkey? Neither could beat the UK, except on their home soil. And in the context of an invasion of the US, I'd rather have the UK as an ally, it actually has long-distance projectionist military power which is exceedingly rare outside of the US, Turkey or Poland don't have it.



I'm curious if there is any polling data on British willingness to help Canada should they face invasion from the U.S. Canada being a commonwealth country with their King as their head of state.


The US already invaded a commonwealth country with the British Queen as head of state: Grenada in 1983.


King as head of state, as of 2022.


Training data too old............


Since there are already Kings of both Canada and Denmark, if Trump wants to be a King too, let them settle it the old way.


well, after all we've been through together, i expect the french might find the opportunity for us to "owe them one, publicly" quite irresistible...

(which is significant because, "after all they went through the last few times", their "find out" policy is a little punchier than most)

and i don't think that anyone really wants that course of events...



Brits wouldn't even die for Britain according to polls, even if it was for Ukraine.


What if the trigger was the US annexing a NATO nation's territory? He's already made noises about Canada and Greenland (Denmark). That would be the ultimate farce.


Note that it doesn't apply to NATO against NATO.


No one is going to go to war for Canada lol. Would be fun to watch though. Would be like the US going to war for Mongolia.


Greenland is about the arctic. It's not some farce or meme. Look at an actual globe and when the ice melts that white stuff is going to be a navigable ocean between Canada Greenland and . . . Russia.

We tend to think of the world on a flat world Google map and Russia seems so far away, but when the pole melts Russia will be closer to north America and they will be wanting that area too.

No ice means it's easier to drill for natural resources. The US is preempting the melt and trying to get ahead in the race for the arctic. It's much more valuable than at first glance.

I laughed first too. I then felt that my laughter was due to not understanding it. "How bizarre, LOL". Then I felt like I was missing something big. Now I try to use these "bizarre jokes" as a sign to look deeper.

In a way (although this info isn't secret at all, just boring) we can use Trump's inability to have a filter to leak the advice that his advisors are giving him more than past statesmen would.



Greenland has coal, criolite, and most importantly is next to current and future shipping lanes.

Some geologists think there might be tons of other deposits under the ice.

The US has been trying to add Greenland since 1867.



Didn't NATO member Turkey invade NATO member Cyprus, with no consequences?


Warsaw pact also invaded itslef, so... it would not be unprecedented...


What's more embarrasing is that the only time article 5 was activated was for US when they got attacked on 9/11


Yeah, we should ask USA to pay for the help we offered them and for our soldiers that died in those conflicts sinee the USaians really are into "deals" and paying for help.


[flagged]



You entered ww1 in 1917, almost at the end of the war after German submarines attacked American ships, if I remember correctly. So the US tried to stay out for quite some time.


You mean when Japan attacked USA and you were forced to enter the war? I do not remember USA attacking nazis because of morality, in you were forced by getting attacked. I remember USA doing business with nazis so the "help" was mustual you were fighting same enemy and my country Romania was in fact on the other side , we were sold to USSR in the end so you got your payment when you split the world with USSR


I never once brought morality into it nor said we were doing any of it for altruistic reasons. That being said it was still done.

I also don't think our "payment" as you put it was sufficient to offset the ongoing costs post WW2. My take was these costs are now no longer worth it and we should let Europe stand for Europe.



You implied the US entered WW2 to help out the European allies and thus they still owe you. But as the person you're responding to pointed out, you entered it of your own accord, pursuing your own interests.

So, no, we're not going to, in your own words, "compare them to WW1 and WW2 and see if we owe you any money".

Moreover, the US were paid back for any weapons or resources you supplied.

Now, about that article 5. You were saying?



You are gaslighting. The original comment I responded to was that because a few NATO nations threw some resources to Afghanistan and Iran that they were all squared away on their commitments to NATO. I said bring receipts and we can compare the butchers bill basically.

I say article 5 is a complete non starter and should be utterly disregarded as Europe has not been meeting is spending targets as specified by the treaty. If Europe didn't keep up its end of the agreement during peace time why should we be required to keep our end in wartime?

I see response below but I can't respond to it directly so I will address it here. Europe was wise to respond the U.S. article 5 as the US had continually kept met ALL of its responsibilities of the treaty since its inception. However many European nations have not kept to ALL of the covenants of that treaty. Again it feels like gaslighting that they cherry pick a few things they did do and ignore all the things they didn't. The disrespect Europe has for America is just staggering and sad. It is time we end this toxic and abusive relationship with them.



Please don't perpetuate flamewars on HN. If you get to "you are gaslighting", it's time to step away.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html



No, you're the one gaslighting. It was not a few NATO nations throwing some resources, although, obviously, you deliberately chose this language to gaslight...

In reality, it was NATO nations responding to the US invoking Article 5, the only time it's been invoked in NATO's history. And in contrast to righteously throwing around empty words about Americans hypothetically coming to die for someone, these nations actually sent their troops, and some of them literally died for you.

> I said bring receipts and we can compare

Again, what are you going to compare against? WW2? The US did not enter WW2 as a favour to the other allies, you entered the war in response to Pearl Harbor. Meanwhile Hitler was dreaming of New York in flames. So your troops went to Europe to protect your own country. Sure you were fighting alongside the UK's forces but they were helping you to protect the US as much as you were helping them defeat Nazi Germany.

> Europe has not been meeting is spending targets as specified by the treaty.

Yeah, because recognizing USD as the world's reserve currency is suddenly not enough.

> I say article 5 is a complete non starter and should be utterly disregarded

Don't remember a lot of US people saying this when it was being invoked in 2001. Maybe you were saying it back then?

That said, it's not surprising at all. What do you call taking advantage of a friend and abandoning them afterwards? Another Friday?



Please don't perpetuate flamewars on HN. If you get to "you're the one gaslighting", it's time to step away.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html



The only farce would be the US.


Yeah, I was wondering at what point Putin decides to roll the dice and put that to the test by rolling into Estonia, Lithuania or Latvia. He must be feeling his chances are pretty good right now.


Not a realistic risk, if only because I don't think they can credibly man a second front of any length at this point.


yeah NATO got irrelevant and Putin certainly now wishes he would not have attacked Ukraine. Rolling into these 3 mini countries with his entire army from 2022 would have been a much easier task


In 2022 the US would have actually showed up for Article 5.


I'm not sure that would go very well for Putin just now. The Russians are already supplying their troops with donkeys as they've run low on vehicles just fighting Ukraine. (https://metro.co.uk/2025/02/07/putin-resorts-using-donkeys-f...)

Even if the US did nothing, rolling into NATO lands would put them up against the UK, Germany, France. Poland et al as well as Ukraine.

The worry is more that a ceasefire is called. Russia rearms and succeeds in taking over Ukraine and then a combined Ukraine and Russia attacks Europe with President Vance supporting Putin.



I hate being that guy sometimes but US Marines use donkeys.

https://www.marines.mil/News/News-Display/Article/500002/mar...



Wehrmacht was mostly supplied by horses.


Is that dumb? These transport animals basically make themselves. Self-replicating, way cheaper than robots, easy to replace when they break down. Don't need sophisticated software, etc. Just some training and sensory deprivation.

I wish humans would not involve other species in their sadistic ways of killing and maiming each other, though. Donkeys, horses, ... all benefited from war mechanization. Dogs not so much so far. Dutch happily train dogs that are then sold to allies to be used to attack, threaten, maim, shit and piss on, sodomize, and kill defenseless people. Bizarre.



It isn't dumb so much as desperate. Their preference is to supply troops with trucks, but they have lost a huge number of trucks and use many of those remaining as troop transports on the front line which also speaks of desperation.


Russia is in war economy now, you definitely shouldn't underestimate them.

Especially if the US lifts their sanctions against Russia.



I don't think that we're this far gone yet, but is there a chance the US sides with Putin in this case? I think it would be risky, and I don't _think_ Trump's base would go for it, but it does feel like the long term goal is to try to sanitize the idea of a shift in the geopolitical order to ally America with Russia instead of with Europe.


trump and the republicans must really be stupid to trade NATO for russia, while leaving an opening for china to side with europe. If US ditches europe, india/SK/JP and the rest of asia will soon reciprocate.

All this so that US sides with a bankrupt cleptocracy and dictatorship. 1000iq move, I guess.



Europe is not allowed to have its own foreign policy, let alone "side with China." All of those US military bases are there for a reason.


…for now. With the US acting in concert with Russia against Europe’s interest, it’s time for Europe to reconsider whether those bases should stay.


Europe has no say in the matter, short of France using its nukes.


Unless Trump wants to start WW3 the US won't be able to do anything, and even if he did start WW3, Europe would be able to destroy those bases.

The whole point of them was to give the US influence while improving US security. Given Europe can't trust Trump will come to their aid, they won't give the US as much influence over Europe.





Have you ever wondered why the US is able to spend so much on its military? Ever wondered why the US keeps on printing the dollar that's not backed by any gold reserve and other nations still give you real things such as food, resources, goods in exchange for it?

Here's a hint! It's your military. To put it bluntly, European nations and other US allies pretend the dollar has actual value and the US in turn guarantees security and backs the world order based on the rule of law.

Looks like the US is looking to pull out of its end of the deal. That's fair enough, being the world's policeman is sure a heavy burden to carry. I just don't see many people recognizing the implications for the US economy.



No argument from me. I'm not happy that Europe is in this position, I just wish that Europeans were aware of it.


trump's base just goes for whatever he says now - perhaps in 2016/2017 they wouldn't, but it is a full on cult now


Maybe this passes as insightful in some circles but it's completely untrue when you consider how much of his base is currently fuming about weak Epstein annoucement and Israel more generally.


> it's completely untrue when you consider how much of his base is currently fuming about weak Epstein annoucement and Israel more generally

Yeah, but they're not going to do anything about it.



I am trying to express in good faith, I have found the Left to be generally less effective in dealing with grassroots criticism (it's seen as too populist). Trump will flip on an issue due to pressure from the frog guys. The Left are more dogmatic from top intellectuals, don't really listen to the base. Huge issue in the last elxn. Fixable though imo.


Not if he puts boots on the ground. Having a relative die in a foreign war focuses people’s attention real fast. They may blame Biden somehow but


Nah, they'd say it was god's will or some nonsense and pretend it's all right. A minority might even be completely fine with losses as long as their god emperor wins in the end and owns the libs.


Gosh could there be some kind of connection between Biden and the conflict in Ukraine?


Yes, he did everything he could to prevent it - being mocked mercilessly by the rightwing for suggesting Putin might do what he eventually did.

Biden did not do enough to kick Russia out, though. He should have given Ukraine everything they wanted, including a no-fly zone (and ideally Warthog support when Russia was stuck in the mud).



Seems too soon, and both Trump and Putin know that.

But in a few months, when Trump’s base and the Republican Party have turned completely pro-Putin and anti-Europe…



IMHO, they are already there. There's no spine in the Republican party to prevent bowing down to Putin, they have always been anti-Europe, and Putin is a big daddy that they actively court when they idolize Hungary's dictator and hold CPAC meetings and try to emulate Orban.


I think in this era of misinformation Trump+Elon can convince their falolowers that is the greatest idea to help Putin, and that Putin is the second greatest leader in the world history after Trump... you can still see USAians claiming USA paid more then Europe even if the lie was exposed days ago


Do you have any evidence of this "Lebensraum" Putin seeks?


Listen to their state media


RT or TASS URL would improve this argument.




Look at the high level of Russian immigration into occupied Crimea.


Literally the same country


Only if you acknowledge illegal annexations.


It's not about Lebensraum in this case. It's restoring the glory of the USSR. And Putin has been clear on that.


"Glory", so not specifics around hypothetical land Putin aka Hitler 2.0 imagines he wants. There's no evidence for him saying anything besides … what he's literally says. This fantasy conjecture is weakening the international position on Ukraine, especially with such easy access to Russian translation tools where we can just expose this secret conspiracy of yours. He literally only talks about Ukraine, you can look into this yourself.

Or perhaps you mean "glory" in the sense of some kind of national pride and confidence in culture and nationality? I am not sure arguments against any nation seeking a sense of themselves are particularly compelling…



Just because the US changing its mind about Russia changes NATO's dynamic as a whole does not mean that the Baltic states are immediately in danger. Poland and Finland are both nearby NATO countries that have experienced Russia's thumb directly with their own military industrial base or are developing one that would absolutely step in if need be.

Reminder that Finland is really close to St. Petersburg, the 2nd largest city in Russia with some pretty big cultural and military importance. Putin's done some fantastically stupid stuff in regard to the 2022 Ukraine war, namely resuming it, but he's probably not that dumb.



Come one, we both know Trump would respond. With a contract for half the invaded nations resources.


And nothing in return.

Such a brilliant negotiator!



You are right. I do hope Zelenksy noticed the sudden caveats he added a few days ago, too. Same thing - Trump wants many billions in resources, yet "can't" guarantee anything in return.

Russia immediately responded by saying it would happily share those resources. Of course.



Trump doesn't understand soft power, nor how much he has destroyed in such a short span. I have hope that a some future point we can repair these relationships, but they will never be like they were. So stupid. Such a waste.


History will record than once...An unsuspecting stand up comedian, who once recorded the voice of Paddington Bear in the Ukrainian dubbing of Paddington and Paddington 2...

Left his family, took on a uniform...And had to fight, at the same time, Putin and the President of the USA: https://youtu.be/4zwfukYhq-k?t=6



I wish our allies had interfered in our elections, in the interests of democracy


With Trump's fragile ego, there's a chance he will designate all humanitarian charitable organizations, and military-aid organizations, to whom USA citizens might want to donate, that have any ties to or otherwise benefit Ukraine, as terrorist organizations. I will be evaluating these ... if you have plans to assist, it may be better to do so sooner rather than later.


EU response not unexpected: ‘Free world needs a new leader’, says EU foreign chief after Trump Zelenskyy row


I bet this is all a part of Trump's strategy into pushing Europe into geopolitical irrelevance. And if it counts for anything, the Europeans did this to themselves by relying on the goodwill of America for their own security.


This will mostly just weaken America.

Europe can defend itself against Russia just fine. Maybe it will be a bit poorer, as it has to spend more money on defense, but it can do that. The bigger threat is that European countries start fighting each other again. That could happen in a few decades, if Eurosceptic parties become too popular.

On the other hand, Europe does not care about China. It has no interests in the Pacific. In the absence of mutually beneficial alliances with powers that oppose China, Europe would rather see China as a (somewhat unpleasant) trading partner than an adversary. If China is not a threat and the US is not an ally, it doesn't matter much which of them is the dominant power in the Pacific.



> On the other hand, Europe does not care about China. It has no interests in the Pacific. In the absence of mutually beneficial alliances with powers that oppose China, Europe would rather see China as a (somewhat unpleasant) trading partner than an adversary. If China is not a threat and the US is not an ally, it doesn't matter much which of them is the dominant power in the Pacific.

China keeps getting blockaded left and right when trying to establish shorter routes with the EU, and there's a reason for this. The EU and China both want to just live in peace and are natural trading partners — the main obstacle being distance, blockades, and unfriendly territories in between.



>China keeps getting blockaded left and right when trying to establish shorter routes with the EU

What does this mean? I honestly cannot imagine.

If you mean naval blockade, which country's navy is doing the blockading?



And what will happen instead is the US losing their status as hegemon/leader of the "free" world / West, with all the benefits that entailed.


Or maybe being the hegemon doesn't mean you have to instigate and bankroll wars in every corner of this earth.


Russia started this war. The US abandoning their closest allies against their historical main antagonist results in losing the status of hegemon, and the economic and geostrategic benefits that entailed.

Russia is winning the cold war, 35 years after it "ended".



You don't get to pick and choose between benefits and costs. Like, over the long term you can, but blowing up your alliances at a press conference is not a strategy for long term geopolitical success.

Great TV, though.



Seems to me that the country Trump is pushing into geopolitical irrelevance is the United States of America. Thanks to him, we're making enemies of friends and allies, throwing away our influence on the world, throwing away any claim we had to being a model, and turning in on ourselves. Trump is MALA: Make America Little Again.


And purpose would that serve Trump? Make Europe weaker... for what? To build a casino in Paris?


Europe hasn't been geopolitical relevant beyond it's own borders for a while now.

I mean think about it - it had to rely on US transportation just to participate in the Iraq War. How much of a threat can a country be if it can't even project force into that theatre?



Believe it or not, yes, the US wishes NATO paid for more of it's defense.


US was always a bully Trump is doing overtly what US has been doing covertly using CIA etc for decades. Actually Trump is more honest than previous US administrations as those would have killed Zelensky and then blamed it on China or Russia if he was not willing to do what they want.


Trump update on Zelenskyy meeting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t21OERWmxUY


European Democracies should start a, new, NATO-like military Alliance on their own, but without Trump's America. (and without the notorious US-made military equipment kill-switches)

And while we're at it, this time will be different: Instead of the membership criteria being anti-soviet communism, as in NATO, it should be effective Liberal Democracy - and - Freedom from Exceptionalist Exemptions, namely from the International Rule of Law. So, to be part,

1. Compulsory International Criminal Court membership and compliance - hence no exceptionalistic US, and no exceptionalistic Israel.

2. No "Illiberal Democracies": say, for example, composite of a minimum 0.67 score on the WJP Rule of Law Index and others: therefore no Orbanic Hungary, and no illiberal others like it. Poland, Slovakia, Italy: time to make some hard choices if you want in.

3. Democratic backsliding removes you rights in the Alliance, and, can proportionally lead to outright expulsion.

Not one more new military equipment purchase from the US, (and dispreference for other non-qualifying nations procurement). Member nations should use their - substantial - industrial capacity to equip themselves with indigenous military materiel.

Hey, it would be actually great for the economy!

Initially European scope, but bridges to a broader global scope (or even a secondary sister-Alliance) with open-ended partnerships with Canada, Australia, New Zeland, Japan, South Korea, and yes: Taiwan.

US and/or Israel want to join, if a more Democratic future selves? Simple: fully join the ICC, and meet the Alliance's full criteria as every other member.

Same applies for prospective new members.

Sweden shows how principled positions can be maintained while building serious defense capabilities. Now multiply that model by Europe's combined industrial and technological base.

We just need the political will to execute - instead of just rolling over and wagging our tail to bullies.



Why a separate alliance? In 2015, only 5 nations meet the 2% funding requirement for NATO, with all previous US administrations asking for increases. That's concrete evidence of disinterest in the concept or intentional reliance on the US. Only recently, with threats of the US pulling out of NATO, have the numbers improved.

If the US scaled back the 2%, and was less involved, I would think Europe would be in a better position than a brand new alliance.



I understand your point about NATO's historical funding issues, but this isn't just about money - it's about aligning with shared democratic values and international accountability.

The 2% GDP threshold has indeed been a persistent issue, but European nations have substantially increased defense spending since 2022. The proposed alliance would be fundamentally different from NATO in two key ways:

1. It would prioritize democratic values and rule of law accountability (ICC membership) over simply being anti-Russia

2. It would develop true strategic autonomy through indigenous defense production

NATO remains structurally dominated by US interests and equipment with their potential "kill switches." Recent events demonstrate why European security can't be outsourced to powers with potentially divergent interests.

The existing industrial and technological capabilities across Europe are more than sufficient to create a credible deterrent force when properly coordinated. This isn't about creating something from scratch, but realigning existing resources toward greater sovereignty.

Democracy and rule of law aren't just ideals - they're strategic assets worth defending with our own means.



I appreciate the explanation. That sounds incredibly reasonable (from my naive perspective).


Why a separate alliance?

Because Trump is clearly compromised by Putin.

Which also means we cannot fully rely on NATO secret keys / protocols.

A new Alliance has to be made from scratch.



Ah... the league of 'liberal democracies' where blasphemy is still a prosecuted crime. So very liberal.

It's also insane that you place Japan in the realm of this alliance while Hungary is kicked out. Japan is significantly more ethno-nationalist than Hungary ever could be.



Also, why do you feel threatened by like-minded countries taking care of their own security?

The right way for you is only if they are bullied without complaint?

Perhaps you'd prefer an alliance where authoritarian tendencies are celebrated rather than scrutinized?

Or maybe you just find democracies protecting themselves too... inconvenient?



You are confusing bemusement for being threatened.


Interesting how you overlook Japan's strong judicial independence, press freedom, and regular peaceful transitions of power to focus on ethno-nationalism.

Meanwhile, Hungary systematically dismantles judicial independence, crushes media freedom, and rewrites electoral rules to entrench single-party rule - but sure, they're the real liberals here.

The proposed alliance isn't claiming perfect members - it's establishing clear, measurable standards through indices *like* WJP Rule of Law. If Japan doesn't meet the 0.67 threshold, they're out too. That's the whole point: consistent standards applied equally, not convenient exceptions.

But please, continue defending Orbán's "illiberal democracy" while nitpicking flaws in actual functioning democracies. That's definitely a coherent position.



In these 'democracies' you can be jailed for online comments lol.


Exactly - in Hungary and Russia!


In the same league as the UK and Germany. This is why I don't support unfettered American alignment with these countries. There is no major country as liberal as the United States.


…Russia is in the same democratic league as Germany and the UK? :D

I mean, how bad faith can you be?

UK and Germany prosecute hate speech with due process. Russia and Hungary jail critics of the government.

If you can't tell the difference, you're not actually interested in freedom.

Strange how your concern for free speech only applies to democracies, never to the dictatorships silencing journalists permanently.

Did YOU say something you shouldn’t have to get the weekend shift at the troll farm?



You've been breaking the site guidelines badly in this thread, such as here and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43221725. That's not ok, regardless of how wrong someone else is or you feel they are. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it.

Note these in particular:

"Eschew flamebait."

"Assume good faith."

"Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, bots, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email [email protected] and we'll look at the data."



Will do.


You're missing that many European nations are having their own problems with the rise of ultra-right nationalism.

We're in the verge of those countries being Trumped as well.



Illiberal nations don’t need to join - in fact, they wouldn’t even be eligible.

It is an Alliance of the Willing.



I understand. I'm saying that that alliance is in real danger of shrinking before it even gets started, and at any point thereafter.

Seven countries now have far right parties in government, including Italy, France, and Germany. If they go the way of the U.S., any liberal alliance will be greatly diminished.



Then the remaining Democracies better take action sooner than later, no?


Genuinely confused:

Why the downvotes?

In 2025, Trump dumped Ukraine, sided with Putin and made a number of bully threats (including invasion) to its formal National Security partners. Security which - at least still today - is bound by literal treaty.

Should Europe just roll over and wag its tail?

What kind of partnership is this that one side wants to boss around its only-good-if-wimp partner?



[flagged]



Democracy isn't binary and doesn't start and end with elections. It is not democratic, for instance, for a president to subvert the powers of Congress (whose members also won their elections).


Both the US and Israel don’t recognize the International Criminal Court, in contrast to the overwhelming majority of democracies worldwide.

I’m not saying they’re not democracies, just that they would be *more democratic* if they would fully comply with the ICC.

This Alliance has standards and actually would stand for concrete values, rather than just strategic convenience.



> The EU is going to be thinking long and hard about the future of NATO now.

European defense spending has, for decades now, suggested that they don't particularly care about NATO. Well, the Western European members at least. Those who used to live in the Warsaw Pact take it more seriously - see Poland, for example.

They also should have been thinking about the implications of buying so much gas from the Russians for the last 15 years. The invasion of Georgia should have been a trigger to move off of Russian exports permanently. Instead it just brought further dependence and a major pipeline project.

I despise Trump as much as anyone but strategic security shouldn't rest on one country never being in a position to elect an isolationist demagogue.



> European defense spending has, for decades now, suggested that they don't particularly care about NATO.

I'd argue the opposite: Western European countries' low defense spending was exactly because they they believed NATO (in particular the US) would intervene if needed. They don't believe this anymore now, hence will increase defense spending, hence making NATO less relevant. They will now be able to rely on the EU alone.



> I'd argue the opposite: Western European countries' low defense spending was exactly because they they believed NATO (in particular the US) would intervene if needed. They don't believe this anymore now, hence will increase defense spending, hence making NATO less relevant. They will now be able to rely on the EU alone.

They're increasing spending, but that takes years to translate to real results.

It's not particularly hard to pump out a few hundred thousand rifles, small arms ammo, and hand them to cannon fod... I mean... the fighting-age men of a country.

What is hard is developing a weapons industry that can act upon intelligence provided by spies planted in places like Russia, develop systems with indigenous technologies, and produce them at scale, all with the logistics to make them mean something on the battlefield. This was on full display during WWII, when some more advanced weapons came out of Germany too late and in too small of numbers to give the Nazis a chance to avoid the ass kicking they so richly deserved.

That takes decades to develop. Europeans, with the exception of the UK and maybe France, have let that fruit rot on the vine since 1991. Putin wouldn't have made this gamble if he didn't think this.



> how quickly the US can turn from ally to bully.

Every country in the world knows this already.

I mean all you need to do is look at South Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, many South American countries, the list goes on and on.

America is like a fickle woman. When she pays attentions to you it feels wonderful, but when she changes her mind it's like you never existed in the first place.

Zelensky had to know that going in. The writing was on the wall.



lol the world knows big guy DT did not invent this


Frankly, the EU is only able to "think long and hard" but never to actually do anything. They have no warfighters anymore and it will take years for the member states of the EU to rebuild anything resembling military capability, if the EU even allows it. Brussels is the equivalent to the Deep State in the US but with official status, instead of being a shadow government. The only leverage EU member states have vis a vis the US is as trading partners and as vassal states for Pax Americana. If the EU wants to move away from the US, good luck. The member states of the EU are soon going to realize they are "a peninsula at the tip of Eurasia" and their best interests lie in close ties to the US.

Ukraine is in a bind, and it is sad when a buffer state is put through the meat grinder in a proxy war between two great powers. But here we are. The upside is that the Ukrainians who weren't killed in the conflict will be, along with Poland and Lithuania, the only "European" states with anything resembling a capable military. I doubt the EU members want Ukraine as a full member of NATO. Too risky. There are some proposals on the table for a more complicated peace without conceding full neutrality of Ukraine to Russia.

I don't think many people understand the nature of this conflict. They merely see "Russian aggression" but have little comprehension of great power competition and the events leading up to the hot part of this war. I feel for the Ukrainians but I wonder if any of the Ukraine boosters would shed a drop of their own blood for Ukraine. If the US demands that the Europeans take a larger role in the security of Europe, we will see if the European NATO members are up to the task. The US needs to pivot its resources to China in the coming decade. The war with Russia has been very costly and strengthened the bonds between Russia and China (and Iran and North Korea). The Europeans should take a great role in policing their own neighborhood, but I don't believe the EU, as currently constructed, is the governance vehicle capable of leading a unified Europe. The member states are, quite understandably, not happy to give up their sovereignty and culture. Participation in a common market has been a disaster for the working class of Western Europe (unless you think cheaper products is the only measure of a country's vitality). The EU experiment might be at an inflection point. They can remain in this bureaucratic quagmire, or reassert the spirit of Wesphalian sovereignty, or await the arrival of a new Charlemagne to unite a strong Europe under sovereign leadership capable of meeting the challenges of the 21st century. My money is on the decline of the EU into irrelevance and a return to the Westphalian spirit. There is no political will centered in Brussels capable of leading this ragtag assemblage of diverse states and peoples. The border problems persist. The result will be more populist revolts and ascendant "right wing" parties advocating "blood and soil" nationalism. If that's the future, then the western european states will only be supported militarily via bilateral treaties with the US or under the umbrella of a NATO dominated by the US. The latter is just the norm for the post-WWII "New World Order" so it will feel familiar. With luck, the collapse of the EU will allow EU member states to reassert control over their own borders and laws. If that happens, they should abandon this resentment of the US and be grateful they were saved from the managed decline of their central government in Brussels.



Interesting take. I mostly disagree, but you do make a good point that Europe won't be willing to "shed blood" for Ukraine.


And the US are? It's an absolute garbage take.


The US just fought a 20 year war and shed quite a bit of blood and treasure. It also appears the US military has been "in country" in Ukraine under special non-uniformed deployments (read "on loan officially as mercenaries"). When was the last war fought by a Western European "power"? Europe fights, if at all, wearing blue helmets, or sometimes fighting "from the rear" behind US military might.


Plenty of European countries joined the US in Afghanistan and Iraq when the US asked for help.


Not many fired a bullet.


1. The US has shed blood for far less serious reasons. Less than 5 years ago we were "shedding blood" for opium farms in the middle east.

2. As it stands today, the US comes out on top. They paid a measly sum to throw Russia in the meat grinder and it will take decades until Russia is threat to the US again.

3. Our military hawks now get to focus on China. EU still has to worry about Russia



I don't think America would/should shed blood for Ukraine nor Europe for that matter. We have bigger issues at the moment, like illegal immigrants, drug cartels, corruption, and China's stated ambitions in the Pacific.


Ukraine is a buffer state to constrain Russia's westward ambitions. Think of it as an unfortunate flat road connecting Asia and Europe, ideal for military movement (especially Russian tank warfare). It is seen as a linchpin or "heartland" of Eurasia. Unfortunately, there is no strategic option to let Russia dominate it while maintaining US global hegemony. Whether that's "right" or not, it's the consensus opinion in the American foreign policy apparatus. The hope is that it can be Europe's responsibility and the US can "pivot to China."


I am well aware of Ukraine's geography and its consequences for Europe. You all have been fighting over that area quite viciously for the last 1000 years.

Question and I ask this honestly. What if Americans no longer care about global hegemony or the fate of Europe? As an American I am tired of the continual idea that we have to care about what happens in Europe and if anything bad happens there it is egg on our face. What about egg on Europe's face? They choose not to spend money on their defense and keep their end of the NATO agreement. I have no appetite to keep up our end of the NATO treaty in wartime if the other parties couldn't keep up their end in peacetime.



Who rules East Europe commands the Heartland;

who rules the Heartland commands the World-Island;

who rules the World-Island commands the world.

— Mackinder, Democratic Ideals and Reality, p. 150



This was a book written by a British about continental Europe. I don't think it holds much value to America. It definitely would impact Europe, Britain, the ME, and North Africa. But honestly it will not have much of an impact on America in terms of our security. There will be impacts to global markets but none that would destroy or really hammer ours. This was written from the view point of European power, which hasn't existed since the end of WW2.


It is the consensus view of the foreign establishment. You can argue for an isolationist foreign policy. We do have a "big beautiful ocean" separating us from the problems of the world. But global powers have a way of competing with each other on a global scale. I'm partial to arguments against global empire because the metropole tends to become just another territory to administer (a kind of home colony). You can see this especially in Britain today. The problems of immigration and border controls at home are hard to separate from foreign policy. Look at a country with extreme border controls like North Korea and see they still need allies to survive. Hence North Korean soldiers dying on the battlefields of Ukraine.

If you want to argue for a renewed commitment to the Monroe Doctrine, I'm with you. Heck, I'm even there for Manifest Destiny (Canada as the 51st state, as Benjamin Franklin would have had it). But the downsides of a multipolar world are legitimate. Ideally we can maintain our global dominance without oppressing/degrading our own and allied populations.



I get what you’re saying, and I appreciate the thoughtful take. It's enjoyable to engage in an actual discussion about this instead of the usual knee-jerk reactions so thank you!

But here’s the thing. Great powers compete globally, but the real question isn’t whether America competes. It’s how, where, and at what cost. If we’re keeping influence by stretching ourselves too thin, ignoring our own problems, and paying Europe’s defense bill forever, then we’re setting ourselves up for failure just like Britain did.

Ukraine matters to Europe, not really to us. Losing Ukraine isn’t a crisis for America, but losing focus on our own borders, economy, and the Pacific definitely is.

I get that multipolarity has risks, but so does trying to be everywhere all the time. If European security is that important, then Europe should handle it. If they won’t, that’s on them.

If we don’t start prioritizing where America actually needs to be strong, we’re going to wake up one day and realize we’ve spent decades managing other people’s problems while letting our own pile up.



I agree with your take. We are stretched too thin and our "allies" have become frenemies. We need to fix our domestic problems or we won't have a country worth preserving. Certainly, at this rate we won't be strong enough to compete with a rising China.

I only point out the foreign policy consensus inherited from the Cold War is still operational among Atlanticists and other Ukraine war hawks. Stripping away the hysteria, we can accept there will be a cost to Russian dominance of Ukraine, if allowed. I expect the foreign policy establishment in State, CIA, and DoD will continue to try to torpedo Trump. But the China hawks are ascendant at the moment. The recent debacle with Zelensky at the WH is maybe the nail in the coffin for overt "Ukraine uber Alles" war hawks. (They say Personnel is policy. Remember that key architects and actors of Atlanticist policy have personal ties to Ukraine. Nuland is second generation Ukrainian-American. The Vindmanns are Ukrainian nationals. Personally, I would not be surprised if Ukraine saboteurs were implicated in the Trump assassination attempt in Butler. They feel, perhaps correctly, that Trump is an existential threat. Doesn't necessarily mean their problems should be our problems.)

I tend to agree that Russia, China, and Iran are our global competitors, that India and Brazil are dark horses, and that transnational Islam (supported by our foreign adversaries) is another wild card. Abandoning the liberal pieties of Pax Americana and retrenching along nationalist sovereignty lines appears to be the way forward with regard to the very real domestic problems you mention. Unconstrained international labor migration is a failure for domestic populations and needs to be largely reversed. Border security and foreign influence need to be addressed. These are civilizational problems as old as civilization itself. The pendulum is swinging back. Some people get it.

I also appreciate the occasional encounter with sensible HN readers who eschew the vitriolic rhetoric and try to argue objectively. Looking at your other recent comments I see you are in a similar boat as I am on HN. Good luck!



> Frankly, the EU is only able to "think long and hard" but never to actually do anything. They have no warfighters anymore and it will take years for the member states of the EU to rebuild anything resembling military capability, if the EU even allows it.

What are you on about? EU countries + UK have over a million professional military personnel.

> Brussels is the equivalent to the Deep State in the US but with official status, instead of being a shadow government.

The EU parliament has members elected from each country in the EU, there's no deep state conspiracy there.

> The member states of the EU are soon going to realize they are "a peninsula at the tip of Eurasia" and their best interests lie in close ties to the US.

This is the complete opposite of what's actually going on, EU countries are realizing we need a stronger EU and we need to fend for ourselves and will be moving away from US ties.



"Professional military personnel" are not warfighters. How many of those "personnel" (did you mean "troops") have been deployed in a non UN peacekeeping capacity or as troop liasons? Very few. Meanwhile, the US just concluded a 20 year adventure in Afghanistan and Iraq. And has been waving a "big stick" standing behind little brothers in other conflicts. Ukraine's military (what's left of it) is actually battle-hardened and could probably turn around and beat Europe if Russia let up and they were so inclined (I jest, but maybe not).

The "deep state" is not a "conspiracy". It's a form of parallel government. Nothing unique about that in history. (The Roman Catholic Church should be familiar to all Europeans.) The comparison is to point out that there are two "sovereignties" in play (member states and EU) making laws. And when you have two, you have none.



You weren’t alone in Iraq and Afghanistan. Also, fighting against talibans and Iraqi rebels is a bit different compared to the war in Ukraine so I’m not so sure your US troops are more “warfighters” than the European troops.


How many non-US combat troops do you think were involved in Iraq and Afghanistan? How many troops do you think European NATO members will commit to a hot war in Ukraine? I agree that the Ukrainians are battle-hardened in a way few other countries are now (besides Russia of course). Ukrainian soldiers also have valuable experience in drone warfare and will have much to teach the US and its allies about 21st century conflict. US military is going to have to modernize some of its personnel and capabilities for new technology, but at this moment, I'd pit the US military against any other in the world. And it's not close.


But for how long will you be able to have the strongest and most modern military in the world if you start losing money because of trade wars and/or other countries stop buying US weapons and so on? I believe it won’t be good for your economy, or ours, if we stop being friends and allies.


This is why Europe must remilitarize and police its own neighborhood on behalf of western security. Probably not going to happen under the EU, which has no ability to assert muscular sovereign leadership. There is no unified Europe at the moment. Better for Europeans to ditch the EU and double down on NATO as a military alliance of sovereign states.


Russia has 1.5 million active military personnel. So you're basically saying that the entire EU+UK is militarily smaller than a country (Russia) that has a GDP less than Texas.


Same argument that people said that russia would steam roll over Ukraine because they have more people and equipment


"I have more soldiers than you" isn't the only thing that counts.


In a protracted conflict that wears down all multipliers, it's just that and supplying enough food and bullets


EU+UK aren't conscripting at this time and also have much better training and equipment than Russia, so the comparison isn't apples to apples, I was just saying that we do in fact have "warfighters".


EU+UK don't/can't/won't "conscript". They will have a volunteer military (or possibly deals with mercenary armies, or foreign recruits in exchange for citizenship) unless and until something catastrophic happens. If it comes conscription, it will have been a unconscionable failure of leadership.


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Literally not the definition of a dictatorship. Elections alone do not guarantee a government not run by a dictator. Not having elections during wartime doesn't mean a dictator is in charge. There is still a parliament.


US intel agencies and state department are NOT CHOOSY historically about any of these distinctions.


At the bare minimum educate yourself on the matter before expressing yourself in public


Well most of the nations of the world didn't do anything for Ukraine, or supported Russia one way or the other.

Maybe a lot of them see the US and/or the Western countries as bullies anyway.

edit: not sure by which part of the world this is downvoted ;)



> edit: not sure by which part of the world this is downvoted ;)

It's downvoted because of this:

> Well most of the nations of the world didn't do anything for Ukraine, or supported Russia one way or the other.

Most of the world supports Ukraine or at least is not pro Russia, as you can see in UN votes. In latest vote, USA voted like Russia, North Korea and Israel, China abstained.



The U.N vote is a good point but doesn't negate which countries did or didn't do things in relation to this war in the last three years.

And after all Ukraine is far away for a lot of the world (but Russia maybe not so much).



Most countries can't afford funding a war on this magnitude even if they wanted to. And this war still squarely concerns solely the West, which the US is a part of, even if Trump overestimates the size of that pond.


Its almost like they’ll start paying for their own defense


I'm sorry, I don't care who you are or what the history between your country and the US is, you don't come and be disrespectful like that and get away with it.

All he had to do was was smile and wave, but Zelensky made it into a dick measuring contest which he was always going to lose.

He is a terrible leader and this is just more proof of it.



Good - they can pay for their own defense instead of milking the American tax payer.


They should have been thinking for a long time now, but weren't. For the 2% requirement:

2015: 5 countries

2021: 9 countries

2024: 23 countries

I don't think these levels would have improved so quickly without the US being a bully.



They increased their defense spending because of Russia invading Ukraine in 2014 and 2022. It didn't have anything to do with US bullying. The biden administration certainly wasn't going around bullying Europe between 2021 and 2024.


Trumps talks of NATO problems go back to his last term. Foreign leaders showed fear of reduced US cooperation then [1], some directly attributing increased spending to that [2]. It was very widely reported back then, with similar fervor.

[1] https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/donald-trump-...

[2] https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/22/world/europe/donald-trump...



bully? the ukraine has been DEMANDING more money from pretty much everyone.

what kind of entitled mindset is that? he should be down on his knees BEGGING for money if he wants it.



It was as if they invited him to the Whitehouse to set him up for a lecture and scolding. They had no intention of anything other than humiliating him in front of the world. It's shameful what our administration has done.


it was 100% the purpose, but it looks like it worked out badly. They keep underestimating Zelenski but he was certainly prepared for this confrontation. I mean, I just can't imagine anybody staying that cool in front of such provocations.


He’s also a former stand up comedian. If you’re going to heckle the guy you’d better be good at it if you want to come out looking good.


He did one mistake though, when he asked "Can I speak/say something?" to Trump, and Trump said no. This is lesson learnt for the future (for myself too in terms of public speaking).

But overall, he did rather well, considering the shit-show it was.

I still can't believe Trump publicly tries to humiliate an ally like this, and at the same time calls Biden "the stupid President".

Stupid or not, perhaps he is, but not to stay in public like that. It shows Trump doesn't respect the function of the US President and shits on the vote of the citizens.



> He did one mistake though

I don't think I'd consider that a mistake. Not that it matters to everyone but it's one more asshole thing to know Trump did, which was only publicized because Zelenskyy respectfully asked for his turn to speak. Other leaders are likely to have taken note of that: Trump isn't even pretending that you're equals.

To some common folk, it will make Zelenskyy look weak but also consider this exact thread in which people say his calm demeanor makes him look strong. I'd wager Zelenskyy is interested in impressing the latter folk and not interested in impressing the former.



Well put. Idiots respect a man that yells and see it as power/strength, smart people recognize the person who is calm in face of that.


But the idiots are so numerous!


Yup, I’d wager that given how the meeting had gone thus far, he made the strategic decision to specifically do this. He knew that this would be spun in whatever way Trump wanted, so it was better to win another point with the group that is smart enough to look past the talking points that Trump is going to push onto the media.


Trump definitely came off as a zhlub in my eyes.


It did get Trump and Vance to show their asses, that's for sure.


There’s a short list of people Trump is afraid to let speak.


> Other leaders are likely to have taken note of that: Trump isn't even pretending that you're equals.

They’re not equals and to pretend otherwise is delusional. One is the leader of the most powerful country on earth. The other is broke and soon to be defenseless.



It's ironic that a "conservative" President does not honor the long-standing traditions and manners that used to be common for past Presidents


may not have been a mistake - I think Z was trying to maintain the high ground and force Trump to act poorly (by saying no); bad optics for Trump (unless you're MAGA)


I love Zelensky and I think he's a hero, but I don't think he did well at all. People think he did well because they love him, but objectively I think he made quite a few mistakes besides the one you mention.

The first one is getting emotional in the first place. His team and Ukraine's intelligence services should have spent weeks interrogating and trying to provoke him in order to desensitize him to this kind of shit. Trump, Vance and Musk are primarily trolls and they should be dealt with as such.

He should not have interrupted Vance answering him either. That was fatal.

He needed to stay calm and slow. He did better than any of us could ever have done, but it wasn't quite enough for this situation. He could have looked a lot stronger and I think we need everything we can possibly get in the situation we're all in right now.

I want to highlight this comment too: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43211604



Given the situation, he did stay calm and slow. He did an excellent job trying to keep the cadence measured.

But Trump jumped in angry at the implication that one day Putin will come for the US. That is when Trump stated his machine gun speech … millions will die, world war 3.

This was a shameful day for America. Period. Full stop.



When Trump jumps in like that, it's a real fear he has. Trump is really for real scared of the Russians. Why? Well, one can muster a couple of hypotheses.


He’s not scared of the Russians. He’s scared of the voters thinking they should be scared of the Russians. When Zelenskyy said the Russians will come for America, Trump was angry because he knew it was going to scare voters and lose him support.


Based on the livestream of the incident, I personally think the issue was the lack of a Ukrainian-English translator.

Vance was absolutely trying to score domestic political points by undermining Zelenskyy, but Zelenskyy was unable to communicate or respond in the manner he wanted to, and definetly committed some obvious Russian L1 / English L2 mistakes (Zelenskyy's first language is Russian and this can be seen by his "costume" statement, because the direct translation for suit across the CIS is костюм/costume [0][1][2][3] because of French influence), and he inadvertently insinuated that Trump wasn't doing enough even though he was trying to join Vance in dunking on the previous admin.

This is why the Japan and India meetings with Trump had English translators despite Ishiba and Modi having a similar level of English fluency to Zelenskyy.

[0] - https://stager.ua/ru/category/kostyumi/

[1] - https://arber.ua/ru/catalog/kostiumi

[2] - https://online.voronin.ua/ru/katalog/kostumy/

[3] - https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/костюм



Maybe, but such a false equivalence. When Vance, Trump and Musk preside over a collapse of all that they hold dear, let’s see how cool they are…


It is definitely going to become a meme, the way he sat there like a scolded kid while Trump said "No. You've talked a lot today. Look, you're not winning this. You're not gonna win this"

Felt like watching your friend get scolded by his parents when they find a cigarette in his backpack



> Trump doesn’t respect the function of the US President

Probably why people voted for him.

> shits on the vote of the citizens.

yes 4 years ago. But now… can’t really say we didn’t know what we were voting for. I didn’t vote for him, but most of my fellow Americans did, and we gotta live with that, and hope we learn.



> most of my fellow Americans did

Not true.



Trump - 77 million votes

Harris - 75 million votes

Source: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/11/05/us/elections/...



That's the official counts. How many voters in Georgia were disenfranchised? How many provisional ballots were thrown out?

Stuff like this https://www.gregpalast.com/trump-lost-vote-suppression-won/



The OP said “most Americans”, not “more Americans than voted for Harris”.


US population: 340M

- an American citizen who wasn't able to vote in multiple presidential elections due to nonsense like being unregistered without notification in a state with an early registration deadline



Look down one more line where it says Trump got less than 50% of the total.


Neitber of those are even remotly a majority of the US.


And even more votes for other candidates, hence Trump did not win a majority of the vote.


> 49.91%

"First past the post" means "first to get above 50%". He didn't win enough of the vote to be elected.



That is not what first past the post means.

First past the post is plurality wins.

Anyways, that's not how US presidential elections work. The aggregate of votes doesn't matter, only the electoral votes divvied up by state.



Trump only won by plurality.


Maybe I will wear a suit like yours, maybe it will be better. Z is pure class!!


How do you think he came out looking good after this? Do you mean this was some elaborate play to "expose" Trump..?

I personally think everyone looked rather unprofessional in this meeting..



I don’t think it was some elaborate ruse… he is a trained actor but his frustration seemed very real. And maybe he shouldn’t have shown it but I do think he was simply reacting to what was unfolding in front of him.

IMO he’s damned if he does and damned if he doesn’t. Maybe he could have been more professional and statesmanlike but I don’t think it would have earned him a thing. The US strategy seems locked in at this point and it’s a pro-Russia one. He could have really flexed the “deal with a heckler” muscles but the risk is far too great.

European leaders are queuing up to restate their support for Ukraine after this and I think that’s probably the best he could have gotten from it anyway.



More than unprofessional. Embarrassing is an understatement.


> They keep underestimating Zelenski but he was certainly prepared for this confrontation.

The Trump-gang seems to underestimate everyone and everything. I still don't know whether they mean all this excessive behavior for real, or if this is an elusive ploy to divert from something else. Trumps seems to operate by selling big to gain small, but I can't really understand yet what his real long-term goal seems.

But at this point it seems other politicians around the world have got an understanding of him and his behavior and started playing along. I'm curious if Zelenskiy did the same, he certainly gained more from this than if he had been avoided it from the beginning.



The long-term goal is to fix themselves and their family at the top of the social hierarchy just in time before biotech bros discover immortality, thus saving their place permanently in the newly ossified social order. This is the last chance fix it before the true end of history, or some bullshit like that.


That felt really gross to watch. I don't know what else to say that's more high-level thinking and adds to the conversation. A straight up "mean girls" moment.


I couldn't even watch the whole video. Horrendous. Depressing. How can you tolerate having those men running your country America. Nightmare fuel.


Lots of us here feel the way you do and are in disbelief of our country


I'm 61. I never in my life thought we could be in this situation. As the old saying goes, "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me." We elected Trump again knowing exactly who he is.

I'm not disappointed in Trump; he remains exactly who I thought he was even before running in 2015. I'm disappointed in how many of my fellow citizens applaud his buffoonery, ignorance, and malice. While Trump himself is not competent, he has surrounded himself with people who can actually do the damage.

To conservatives who are about to say I'm a snowflake liberal, I ask you this: if Biden had invited George Soros to run wild through the government and ignore the laws, demanded a $800B reduction in the military budget and reallocated it to distribute to those in poverty, commanded schools to hire only gay people, fire anyone who didn't declare loyalty to Biden, and had minions collecting all your data for whatever purposes, and threatened to wipe out Israel unless they gave over their country to the Palestinians, what would you have done?

I can't even construct a proper analogy because those goals above are just a parody of what the left wants, whereas Trump/Musk are actually doing that about actual right wing wishes.



How to the ground work was laid leading up to trump getting into office deserves a documentary. He just had to say some memetic/populist words that had been unadressed/supressed/agitated for years leading up


I'm 29 and i voted for trump. I'd like to share my perspective for you to gleam alittle insight into my generation and why we voted for trump.

if Biden had invited George Soros to run wild through the government and ignore the laws, demanded a $800B reduction in the military budget and reallocated it to distribute to those in poverty,

- This sounds awesome. He's got a plan, he executed. If we didn't piss off our allies, we could probably ride on our military spending lorals from decades past. It would probably completely irradicate poverty, if he got the whole 'left' side of silicon valley to start building super cheap sky scrapers for the homeless. it'd be a pretty cool golden age. But here lies the issue... He inacted radical change towards some end, and hired some of the smartest minds in the world to help him enact his policys.

commanded schools to hire only gay people, -..... Hmmmmm, Sounds like we'd have a complete population collapse in about a single generation. I'm a normal dude, i've had gay friends, trans friends, w/e. But do i disagree with them on that issue? Do i think this should be taught in school at all? no... so yeah, i'd be pretty pissed and i'd homeschool my kid forsure.

fire anyone who didn't declare loyalty to Biden, Well.... Yeah, i mean, that's how a cabinet works, right? The people voted for the president, so who are you to defy the people? get in line or get out.

and had minions collecting all your data for whatever purposes, - Well... They hopefully used the data to irradicate the military budget.

and threatened to wipe out Israel unless they gave over their country to the Palestinians, what would you have done?

at 61, i'm suprised in your inability to see the world as... real... with real violence. People seem to forget that a couple generations ago the entire world was imperialistic with a large percentage of the human population as slaves. We are those same people, our evolution didn't change in 250 years. Only with a complete monopoly on violence can you ensure peace between neighbors. This war has been going on for too long and will never end if a complete monopoly of violence is not secured. So honestly, if he came in and ended the war, i don't really care how he'd do it. Pick a side is a side as any. but like... hamas is literally a terrorist organization funded by iran so....



Thank you for your detailed and considered reply. I'm going to push back, but please understand it is my way of understanding your position better. I am not attempting to change your mind.

Having a plan and executing on it is not intrinsically good if the plan itself is corrupt. It is telling that Project 2025 was disavowed by Trump before the election due to its many unpopular goals, but obviously that was a ruse and than plan is being carried out. That doesn't fit your description of it is commendable to carry out that plan.

Many of these plans are just based on pretext. P2025 isn't going to reduce the debt -- the money saved by cutting social services will be rerouted to the military and bankroll tax cuts that are clearly advantageous to the rich. Recall in Trump's first term there was the case of megacorps using accounting tricks (like "the double irish") to avoid paying taxes that were otherwise legally due. Trump gave away an immediate trillion dollars via that amnesty and reduced rates going forward for trillions more. If the real goal was debt reduction, we'd be reverting those tax giveaways and restoring the capital gains tax to a higher level.

"Hmmmmm, Sounds like we'd have a complete population collapse". I agree, as would just about everyone, that such a policy would be bad. But that doesn't address my point: should Biden/Soros be allowed to ignore the laws to do it?

"i mean, that's how a cabinet works" Nobody is upset that Trump is replacing political appointees. The problem is that he is turning apolitical positions into political positions. Should the IRS be staffed with political appointees? The DOJ? The FBI? By claiming for years that he is the victim of a politicalization of the DOJ, it is the pretext for actually politicizing the DOJ.

"hopefully they used the data to irridicate the military budget." First, the military budget is set to increase. Second, why offer him the benefit of the doubt? It is OK he is violating laws just in case he is doing it for good? Half of Trump's former inner circle, lifelong Republicans, refused to endorse him, many expressly saying he is manifestly unfit. The data is that Trump is transactional and is motivated only by self interest.

What would I have done about Gaza? Yes, it is a Gordian knot of conflicting principles. But again, that isn't my point. Biden didn't ask for the cleansing of Israel, unlike Trump who has called for a cleansing of Palestine. Is this playing out like you expected when you voted for Trump? Your response seems to indicate you have bought into the cartoonish version that the right pushes of the conflict: looking only at the violence done to Israel without acknowledging the violence done by Israel. To disclose my position, of course, I don't want bombs falling on the heads of Israelis and Israel has the right to defend itself. Yes, Hamas is a terrorist organization. Is your problem that they should behave more honorably? We can help that by giving them billions of dollars annually and giving them some nukes. Sarcasm aside, it is like people complaining about Iraq using IEDs; of course I don't want to see US soldiers blown up, but to complain about them resorting to primitive tricks while we occupy and bomb the crap out of their country is rich.



< the money saved by cutting social services will be rerouted to the military and bankroll tax cuts that are clearly advantageous to the rich.

Biden campaigned on ending those tax cuts. He did not end the tax cuts. These are not new, and these are from trumps first term.

>Second, why offer him the benefit of the doubt? It is OK he is violating laws just in case he is doing it for good?

Can you tell me what laws he violated? have you actually seen the doge website? They are using FPDS-NG which is all public information... They are all vetted and passed a background check.

Finally, on Palestine... Yes, they elected an internationally known criminal organization, which is designated as a terrorist organization by the department of state to run their country. They then murdered a bunch of people at a music festival to give israel all the ammunition it needs. Now it's crying foul because Sharīʿah turns out to be a very evil way to govern yourself. Again, not saying israel is blameless in the last 100 years of fucked up shit that they have done to eachother, but you keep poking a bigger bear, doesn't matter who was wrong, that's not how war works.



How do I know what Trump's administration is going to do in the future? Project 2025 laid it all out. Secondly, a President doesn't directly control the budget -- that is the job of congress. There are some things directly in the purview of the president, but everything else has to be done the "the bully pulpit" via negotiating with congress. So, no Biden could not unilaterally change the law -- he failed to get congress to do it.

Trump is operating on the novel legal theory of the unitary executive -- that the executive branch really has all the power and the other two are subordinate and operate at the will of the President. I don't understand how people can listen to Trump assert this and the the next moment Trump is railing about how Obama broke the law by spying on Trump's campaign. If they really believe "if the president does it, then it is legal" then how could Obama have broken the law.

We aren't entirely sure what he is up to, but clearly allowing unfettered access to Musk's minions, none of whom have clearance, to hover up all data and install who knows what software on the computers of every department is not legal. Clearly, demanding George to "find 11,780 votes" is not legal. Illegally taking top secret documents, lying about having them, actively moving them when the Feds came to collect them, all illegal. Clearly, keeping cooking books and keeping two sets of books in his personal business are not legal. He has taken in tens of millions, possibly billions, despite the emoluments clause (the open extortion of media companies in the first case, the pump and dump trump crypto coin, the suspect investments from Qatar and others into Kusher's failing real estate deals).



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To add on to that, counting on them to feel shame or self-reflection. That does not exist.


I'd rather this than a useless meeting in secret with prepared press releases full of pablum and platitudes.


I could see how somebody might think that, if they ignore the content of what was said and only look at the presentation.


Humiliating people does appear to be a common theme with the administration, one just has to look at the photo they put out after winning with RFK and the McDonald's takeout on airforce one. Also all the women jockeying for various positions getting plastic surgery, looking like an army of botox'd stepford wives. I'm no armchair psychoanalyst so I can't tell you what it means. Just that it's very.. apparent and intentional.


The joke is on them.

The one's humiliated on the global scale are the ones who are lying through their teeth with less than zero class.



I don't think the US is "too big to fall", and the US seems to have taken that road.


I think it was disgusting what Trump and Vance did, but I don't believe for a second that everyone will view it that way. The 40% that voted for them will view this as an ass whooping Trump/Vance gave Zelensky. They're all in on the grift, there's no reason this will turn them off.

Now, if SS or Medicaid is gutted... that will be the turning point for this admin.



> Now, if SS or Medicaid is gutted... that will be the turning point for this admin.

They are in the process of being gutted ... but Trump, Musk and the right wing media will spin it as being Biden's fault, and those same people will accept it as gospel truth.



Indirectly, yes. They're trying to make the administration of SS and Medicaid fail. Do they have the balls to make a frontal assault? We'll see.

Either way, it's going to be interesting to see them blame any problems on Biden.

I wonder if Trump got Elon in to do the axing just so he could blame him if his base turns on him. Remember the first cabinet meeting? He made a joke about firing Elon. To me, that was a reminder to everyone who is in charge. Also, Elon didn't even have a chair at the table. What a power play.



I’m in that 40% and I think today was fantastic. It lets people see what these things are really like.

Zelensky came to the USA to sign an already agreed-to minerals deal that would have (eventually) paid back the billions of dollars they’ve received. There were no additional security guarantees. No further agreements. This was back pay. And it was agreed to before he left Ukraine.

He reneged, got called out for demanding further security guarantees, thought he could bluff them into agreeing to more, and summarily got his ass handed to him on live TV. Trump is not the one that tried to change the deal.

The real moment of the day was when Trump asked him point blank if he even wants a ceasefire. And he couldn’t say yes.

You can’t end a war diplomatically if there’s no will to stop fighting and accept peace. For lack of a better term, Ukraine is in a shit position. Billions more dollars will not change that, it will just cost more blood.

If people think the situation and accepting the current positions is bad now, just wait to see how bad it will be when the USA weapons spigot gets turned off.



Considering America signed the Budapest Memorandum pledging to assure security in Ukraine in exchange for Ukraine to hand over its nuclear weapons to Russia... all this is going to do is spur countries no longer reliably protected by the US to develop their own nuclear weapons.

I think the risk of nuclear war in the future just went up.



If I steal half your house, kill one of your children, and then ask for a cease fire, while I still get your kitchen and living room - what are your thoughts?

Would you be mad if you gave up your guns and your neighbor promised to protect you and then he said, unless you give me your back yard, I'm not helping, I know we had an agreement, but oh well, good luck on your own?

Why would you want to enter another agreement with this neighbor when he's already opportunistically screwing you over on existing agreement?



The tertiary definition of "diplomatic" is "employing tact and conciliation especially in situations of stress". That means acting calmly and rationally in the types of insane situations that you're describing.

Nobody is saying Zelensky and Ukraine should be happy with where they've ended up. War is terrible and the desire for revenge or retribution will never subside. Diplomacy is putting aside that raw emotion to get the best deal you can, working with the situation that you have.

For them to come to USA to sign an agreement, renege, demand more, and create a spectacle in front of the cameras, is incredibly non-diplomatic. You can see it on the face of the Ukrainian ambassador: https://www.newsweek.com/photo-ukrainian-ambassador-amid-tru...

That minerals deal was going to be the first step toward peace. But Zelensky royally fucked it up. And the only way to fix it is going to be for him to come groveling back or step down so someone else can do the groveling. And that's not a desire of mine, that's the reality of the situation. Their country is broke and will run out of ammo in six months without further assistance. As Trump said during the call, he has no cards to play.



> That minerals deal was going to be the first step toward peace.

No, it was the first step toward conceding everything to Russia, also conceding to an outrageously overzealous US (for reasons unclear to anyone outside the Trump bubble), with a guaranteed future war with zero protections.

If they wanted to give Russia everything they wanted, they could've done that years ago, and not given up minerals to the US.

This would be an impressively terrible deal.



> The real moment of the day was when Trump asked him point blank if he even wants a ceasefire. And he couldn’t say yes.

The reason why he didn't answer is because the answer is meaningless. Putin won't respect a cease fire. And if you think he would, you are completely clueless about the history of that region and what has already transpired. The "guarantee" that Putin gave that he would not invade if Ukraine gave back their nukes. That promise was ignored in 2014 when he took Crimea.

As for the rest of your reply: I assume you are discussing this in good faith and you're not trolling. If the US withdraws support and Ukraine falls to Russia, what do you think will happen after that? Is the rest of Europe (east and west) safe from further incursions?



Diplomacy has been tried multiple times before, even with security guarantees from the usa. Still Putin invaded. There can not be lasting peace without actual guarantees (for which use is not even a trustworthy party anymore). Because Putin will rebuild and invade again as he did after the last time.

This is what Zelensky tried to explain to Vance before the discussion blew up.



But will the American people see what the rest of the world sees, or will they continue supporting Trump and Vance?


you are greatly overstimating it 33% oppose him entirely, 33% don't care, 33% cultishly adhere to whatever he says; 1% pull the strings


The "don't care" continues to baffle me


Some people only care about simple stuff. You know like partying or having fun? US Government being a shit show? War stuff happening halfway across the planet? Some people don't care about that. They don't care if the government they are in is a democracy or a dictatorship. Some people just want to smoke weed everyday, play video games, fish, travel, spend time with family, or get laid... If the current government (whatever shape or form it is) isn't preventing them from doing what it is they want to do, then they don't really care. And reality is, there's a lot of such folks who's pursuits are rather unaffected by the current state of affairs, even if they're large amounts who are. You might think that they should care, and reasonably so, but fact is, some won't until it actually is (too late).


They’re too busy figuring out how to pay their bills to worry about the future of the country.


> But will the American people see what the rest of the world sees, or will they continue supporting Trump and Vance?

Attributed to (the half-American) Winston Churchill: "The American people can be counted on to do the right thing — after they've exhausted all other possibilities."



It is consistently misattributed to Churchill and misquoted to be about Americans. The quote is actually from Abba Eban, and what he said was, "History teaches us that men and nations behave wisely once they have exhausted all other alternatives."


I honestly don't think there's anything Trump could do to lose the support of his MAGA base. There have been so many times when I've said "surely they'll see what he is now" only to be mistaken. It's truly a cult.


Trump and MAGA people are really 'till death do us part.....

The people that suffered the most from the first Trump administration are the white republicans: they died because they did not want to be vaccinated against COVID nor wear masks. In 2024 white republicans voted for Trump even though they were personally hurt by Trump's COVID advice.

One of my friends is a Trump supporter who almost died of COVID (he got intubated!!). His wife also got COVID. Never you mind: both of them voted for Trump in 2024.



Right, short of his actions resulting in them being fired, losing medicare or other direct impact, there is no way they will change course, they are too deep in to the grift.


That assumes that Trump, Musk and the right wing media won't spin that as Biden's fault, and that Trump is "working on something better". They will, and they will believe him.


> I honestly don't think there's anything Trump could do to lose the support of his MAGA base.

We have ample precedent: Germany in 1945.



Some of that base of support already wears lightning stripes. Many other's sport the brown shirts.


Hopefully it doesn't take our cities being bombed into the ground for them to wake up.


This is a good reminder why diplomacy is usually done behind closed doors. "Transparency" is being used as the refuge of a scoundrel.


So it was just like literally everything else this administration is doing. Shocking.


It 100% looks like they were planning to force a confrontation. Notice how all the escalation is them, they start escalating over basically nothing, and they keep trying to crank up the temperature while Zelenskyy's keeping things nice and even. This didn't happen the last couple times world leaders made far more confrontational statements in a similar setting, but also Vance wasn't there to provide emotional support those times and, well, there are some common sayings about the actual nature of a bully.

I think Zelenskyy didn't give them the sound-bites or vibe they were looking for, but they're claiming some kind of victory (WTF) on social media anyway. Meanwhile all they managed to do was look some combination of stupid, childish, and traitorous, while he came out looking incredibly restrained, and overall more-articulate than them despite the handicap of speaking in English rather than his native tongue.



Sounds like when Jon Stewart went on Crossfire and destroyed Tucker Carlson who had attempted to escalate and get angry. And Jon was like "this is theater."


Carlson was destroyed, but he did not attempt to escalate. He wanted Stewart to get back to "being funny" and got angry when Stewart refused.


First he wanted to hold Stewart to journalistic standards as a comedian that Carlson was not meeting as an actual journalist and got utterly destroyed in response. He then called for an emergency commercial break, and after the break tried to bait Stewart for not being funny in their interview, despite being completely responsible for the topic. Got utterly destroyed again, and their show got cancelled.


If the past 20 years have taught us anything, including Carlson's history since that segment, it's that this kind of "destroyed" (see also: "destroyed" on Twitter) is not a remotely useful kind of "destroyed", no matter how plain and thorough the destruction.


Tucker got so destroyed that he went onto make 10s of millions a year at Fox, for years, and now he gets to interview fascist skull measurers all day on Twitter.


i'd completely forgotten about this video, i think it's high time to go rewatch it... thanks for the reminder.




I disagree that it looked like a planned confrontation and that all the escalation is on Trump and Vance

Vance made a comment about the US' goal to be diplomatic.

Zelensky speaks up and says he wants to ask Vance something. He then goes on to talk about how Putin annexed Crimea and that between 2014 - 2022 Putin was murdering Ukrainian citizens and ignoring cease fires. He mentioned that nobody did anything to stop Putin, implying that Trump didn't do anything during his first term in office. Then Zelensky ends with something along the lines of "so what do you mean diplomacy" to Vance.

Even if Zelensky's statements were correct, that was not a wise course of action to attempt to call out the President and VP while you're in the Oval office. The meeting erupts from there.

Regardless of how you feel about the current administration, it is a fact that Ukraine has been dependent on the US' aid. I don't know what Zelensky expected to gain from those statements.



What would Ukraine gain from a deal where they give up their natural resources in exchange for a pinky promise between an invading dictator and his 'wanna-be dictator' friend to allow Ukraine to remain an independent country?


What did the USA gain by giving billions of dollars of aid to Ukraine?

My understanding is that the mineral deal is back pay. And if the development is going to be done by American firms, then of course there’s a security alignment for the USA.

The dumb move of the day was on the part of Zelensky thinking he could somehow expand things at the last moment or on live TV.



We destroyed half of Russia’s military without shedding American lives. We defended the principle that people should govern themselves and not be dominated by force.


If other large powers stop being afraid of the US, and if allies can't trust the US, then the US will lose its status and the losses from that are probably a lot more than the billions given to Ukraine.


His point, which he made very clearly, was not criticism of the US; it was distrust that Putin would honor a ceasefire. Zelensky explained that diplomacy is not enough, asking what diplomacy alone will accomplish with someone who doesn't honor their deals.

Vance took it in a really weird direction, first pushing "the kind of diplomacy that is going to save your country", then accusing Zelensky of not saying thank you (despite him having said thank you several times that very meeting?).

The reporters reiterated Zelensky's point, asking what Trump would do if Putin breaks the deal, and Trump just shoots down the possibility, saying he doesn't think it would happen and the possibility isn't worth considering. "What if a bomb drops on your head right now". His only justification being that Trump is president and Putin wouldn't do that to Trump.

Zelensky needs guarantees or the ceasefire isn't worth it to him, so it's fair for him to push back on the lack of guarantees even at the risk of annoying Vance. But they snapped back at him in a very unreasonable way.



I agree that Zelensky's main point was definitely that Putin can't be trusted.

But, he also highlighted a couple of times that that no one did anything to stop Putin which implies that the US didn't do anything. Which could be taken as criticism. Also, ending his statements with "So what do you mean diplomacy" is clearly a snarky response.

The fact is Zelensky has no leverage. He was given aid from the US, apparently as a grant. The US has no obligation to help Ukraine. My understanding is that the aid was given to Ukraine in the hopes that it would weaken Russia. That gamble doesn't appear to be working.

If he didn't like the terms of the deal, it should have been discussed in private, before coming to the US. Instead, he chose to push back in a public forum. So I don't feel the response he got was unwarranted.

An analogy that comes to mind is helping out a friend that just lost their job. You give them money and a place to stay and over time the friend starts to feel entitled to your generosity. Eventually, you get tired of it and give them a deadline to find their own place. Then during dinner with a group of friends, they complain to the table that you only gave them 3 months left to stay instead of 6...

I got carried away with the analogy and of course it doesn't capture the gravity of the situation in Ukraine, but I feel like it captures the core sentiment.



> The fact is Zelensky has no leverage

That's not really true. His leverage is that it's also in the interests of the US to maintain norms in which territorial conquest is not rewarded. "Crime doesn't pay". He also attempted to convince the US of this but was brushed off.

Looking at it as a one-off situation in which the US doesn't have any interest results in it not being a one-off situation, because if Ukraine loses then everyone starts itching to take land from their neighbours. And everyone else starts arming themselves with nukes, having seen what Ukraine got for giving them up. That's the path to World War 3. And the US might realize then, with regret, that it was easier to plug the dam when the crack was small.

Trump doesn't understand this. He made it clear that he doesn't see it as an iterated game, just a one-off. Or perhaps he's the one who wants to establish norms of taking over neighbours with force?

As for an analogy, a better example is that your friend's house is being broken into by a notorious gang of criminals threatening the neighborhood, and his children have been picked off one by one, and he's knocking at your door screaming "I'll hold them off if you can pass me some more ammo!", and you're haggling him down for his furniture.

When the USSR invaded Afghanistan, the US was happy to send the Taliban weapons. That wasn't for love or charity. It was American self-interest. So is this.



For context, since most clips I've found online start just after JD's comment you're alluding to here-

JD's statement about "diplomacy" which precedes Zelensky's comments about how Russia diplomacy plays out starts here: https://youtu.be/CIEZEvx1HfU?si=IdGw2g74643yEQrE&t=45

I suppose its arguable that it wasn't the most diplomatic thing to say in the moment. But I can't fault the guy for pointing out the undiplomatic behavior while his country is being squeezed by Russia and US (wrt mineral rights). How frustrating it must be to hear "have you tried diplomacy?" in the context of an invading force.



Oh wow, makes sense that the video was clipped. The first video I clicked had the entire segment so I guess I got lucky.

I can understand his frustration as well. But, he's a leader at war and lives of his men depend on his actions. The moment is much much bigger than him.



It was an absolutely fair question. Trump and Vance are saying let’s solve it with diplomacy. Zelenskyy provides facts confirming the impossibility of doing diplomacy in good faith. Agreements don’t have any value when history shows the other party not respecting the agreements. So, “what kind of diplomacy you mean?” is a fair question.

Vance’s answer “I mean the kind of diplomacy that would save your country” is a meaningless bullshit sentence.



He's trying to make the point that they can't talk peace without material guarantees of security from their allies as part of the deal, which guarantees are absent from the White House's agreement, because they just had an agreement without such guarantees shit all over by Putin, so it's, you know, kinda pointless to do that again. It's making concessions on paper for no guarantee of peace, with an adversary that's already broken a similar agreement, leading to this very conflict. Why make concessions with no guarantee of security in return, when there's zero reason to believe Russia will keep their word? He actually manages to get most of that explanation out, in between interruptions and non sequitur digs from the other two.

The difference between this and the more confrontational corrections of Trump's bullshit in similar situations recently, by Macron and Trudeau, is stark. Trump and Vance were primed to pounce.



> implying that Trump didn't do anything during his first term

To me the implication was that "diplomacy and deals didn't work" and they ended up with the current war, anyway. It's a common talking point.



Remember that Z has to answer to the people of Ukraine. People who have been dying in defense of their borders -- and a volunteer army, not conscripts, mind you.

He wanted/needed American aid, but there was no way he could just go in there and kiss the ring, while being slandered as the aggressor and letting Putin off the hook. There's no way that would fly for his people back home -- remember that they are as much of an audience as the Americans.



> There's no way that would fly for his people back home -- remember that they are as much of an audience as the Americans.

Well, them and the Russians. "Ooopsy, we let Russian state media in, however did that accidentally happen?!?"



His best outcome was peace with security guarantees (not on offer from the White House—who knows what might have happened if anyone else had been invited to these patently absurd two-party talks, to maybe sweeten the deal for Ukraine? Christ, how ridiculous).

Failing that, this is a pretty good outcome, in the scheme of things. He outed Trump as a committed Russian ally, not behind closed doors, but on international television so nobody (who matters in this context, I mean world leaders, not Trump voters) can ignore it. He may have just kicked over the final leg holding up the American-centered security apparatus, in such a shocking and spectacular fashion that others will be compelled to form a new one without us, which is something they absolutely need if they're going to keep fighting and the US is withdrawing support. They need other countries not to follow America's lead.



Yeah it might actually get Europe to take matters into their own hands (which Trump would see as a win for the US but which is long term very much a loss for the US). It also might push the EU more towards China. In fact if I were China right now I’d start making overtures to Europe.


He canceled elections and is serving past his term. He clearly doesn't have to answer to the people of Ukraine anymore.


Google is your friend:

> did the us held elections while world war 2 was happening?

> Elections were held on November 7, 1944, during the final stages of World War II. President Franklin D. Roosevelt was easily re-elected to an unprecedented fourth term, and the Democratic Party retained their majorities in both chambers of Congress.



This is a lie.


There was a choice Zelenskyy could have made there, but he seems to know the deal so he didn’t hold back asking


Their course of action was bullshit. "Sure, diplomacy has failed you the last four times, and we've interfered plenty. So why not try it a fifth time?"

They expected Zelensky to be Charlie Brown kicking the football.

We have no fucking right to the "mineral rights" in Ukraine.



At that point he knew things were done. There is no more US aide and he decided to call them on their bullshit.


My guess is he's being pushed out as president and is forced to sign the deal, by internal political forces who are likely pro-Trump or pro-Putin.

This news press is his only chance to potentially flip the script with his public opinion advantage. We will see how that goes.



Zelensky used to be a stand-up comedian. He has plenty of experience thinking on his feet in front of a tough audience of drunks and fools.

I'm wondering what all the people in the US military and government who swore to protect the US from "all enemies, foreign and domestic" are thinking now.



I have to imagine being under non-stop threat of violent death for several years also gives one a rather thick skin.


I disagree. If you watch the entire 50-minute video [1], everything was going very smoothly until the final question. If Trump and Vance had intended to provoke Zelenski, why would they have spent the first ~40 minutes chatting with him amicably and only become heated in response to one specific remark he made at the end?

[1] https://thehill.com/video-clips/5168859-watch-live-donald-tr...



Trump did the exact same thing with the Polish president, made him wait for 1 and a half hours then had a 10 minute meeting with him.

https://www.dw.com/en/how-trumps-foreign-policy-is-impacting...



Even worse with Kaja Kallas, she flew into US and Rubio cancelled the meeting. Not sure if she was supposed to meet Trump or not but that's still a case of US bullying its allies all the while sucking up to Putin.


Which is the exact kind of play Putin likes to perform.


The spat started when Vance made a point addressed to the US media (not Zelensky), and Zelensky interjected to confront Vance for his statement.

Up until that point there had been 40 minutes of cordial discussion. I don't think it was intended that the talks would break down and the deal would fall through.



Richard Hanania believes that we should repeal large portions of the Civil Rights Act and has previously posted extreme racial hatred on white supremacist websites.


This is the genetic fallacy, unless you believe that these particular comments are somehow reflective of the odious views you are referencing.

But congratulations, you win. I will delete that link rather than be drawn into an unrelated conversation about the history of one man's views.



It is a fallacy in a strictly formal sense.

But frankly in today's world where we've got people making serious decisions in government who are avowed segregationists I think it is rather important to mention when people oppose the Civil Rights Act when considering their opinion on political news.

Hanania's opinions here are not one weird quirk. They are central to the modern GOP's project.



I am sorry, but this is stupid. You brought an argument on the basis that it comes from a neutral source. Turns out, it was not a neutral source. What do you do: hide the source.

Edit to clarify what I mean: You could have written that you are of the same opinion, independent of who that is. But instead you hide it, as if you had come to that conclusion totally on your own.



I was not leaning on the credibility of this person in any way except to say that it changed his mind on this one specific issue.

When a reply mentioned unrelated past statements from the same person, it was clear that they wanted to tar the statement by association rather than discuss it substantively.



And I think that you should be immensely skeptical of what somebody like Hanania is trying to do to your mind and beliefs.

I believe that mentioning that he is a virulent racist who is actively seeking a much more brutal and unjust world is critical to the substance of his other political writing. These are not unrelated statements.



I initially saw just the latter part of the meeting where the conflict happens and it seemed like a premeditated thing, but after finding a video that shows the meeting from the beginning[1], I agree that it comes across differently.

It seems like they were having a pretty good meeting, right up until Vance decides to interject his stupid talking points, and then the exchange between Vance and Zelensky gets Trump to launch into his bizarre grievance tirade. It's like dementia was in full-self-driving mode and had no brakes.

Maybe Vance got what he wanted out of this meeting, but I could plausibly believe that Trump wasn't planning for it to blow up like this -- he just didn't have the level of self-control or self-awareness to stop himself. Which isn't exactly a good look either.

[1] https://youtu.be/Y7QxUHdvpk8?t=8693



Doesn't mean they both aren't irredeemably compromised and there isnt mountains of kompromat on dt


What did Vance say addressed to the media that Zelensky shouldn't have responded to? I've watched the video a few times and I don't really get what you're talking about

https://youtu.be/O_BhxA1WDQY?si=7Ovl4-RpTCdi5ewZ



In the full video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhquAWlke2o), at 38:15 you can see the press ask a question that Trump (and then Vance) are responding to, directly prior to where your video begins.

Trump and Vance are directing their answers at the reporter. Vance's reply does not criticize Zelensky at all.

Then Zelensky interjects to directly confront Vance about his answer. That was the moment when it became argumentative.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the righteous fury that Zelensky feels. His country was invaded. But I think it was a blunder to pick a fight over Vance's answer.



JD basically said "why don't we try diplomacy?" and Zelensky rightfully pointed out that they have already tried for multiple years, including a full ceasefire agreement in 2019 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minsk_agreements). Then Russia invaded Ukraine and tried to takeover the whole country. Either Vance has no idea what he's talking about or he wanted to provoke Zelensky.

Also, Vance's claim that Trump is the first one to actually engage in diplomacy is pretty wild, considering that Trump called Zelensky a dictator and essentially succumbs to all of Putin's demands, going so far as to side with Russia in the UN.



Could you please explain what part about his interjection/question was inaccurate or invalid?


I didn't say that it was inaccurate or invalid per se, only that he made the decision to pick a fight on live TV in what was previously a cordial conversation, and this (to me) strongly refutes the idea that Trump and Vance intentionally set this up to humiliate Zelensky.


I see that. However, it seems weird to broadcast this whole negotiation/talk/hour itself. Even the parts before that weren't really insightful or well formatted. It seems unprofessional and embarrassing for the US to do it in this way, even without the eventual climax.


Because what we need is less transparency! /s


We should broadcast everything all branches of government do all the time, across thousands of channels so that the people can watch it all and make their own decisions on everything. Now that's transparency.


If this were to happen, who would get the highest viewership ratings?


What tripped my spider sense is these two comments from Trump:

TRUMP: "But you see, I think it’s good for the American people to see what’s going on. I think it’s very important. That’s why I kept this going so long."

TRUMP: "All right, I think we’ve seen enough. What do you think? This is going to be great television."



Interesting.

I just watched Trump greet Zelensky entering the Whitehouse with words like "and he even got all dressed up", foreshadowing Tulsi Gabbard's journalist boyfriend asking Z why he doesn't wear a suit.

It was definitely a planned media ambush intended to undermine support for Z and Ukraine.



I think that was MTG boyfriend but still stands.


I've watched the whole video and Vance was asked a question about diplomacy in the Ukraine war, the idea that Zelensky doesn't get to respond to that while he's sitting in the room seems absurd. Why have him there if he can't give his opinion on diplomacy in Ukraine?

If he was asked a question on American politics I would tend to agree but this is Americans here espousing their views on Ukrainian politics and then expecting to not hear the Ukrainian side to it.



Zelensky is negotiating continued American support for Ukraine. He can respond to whatever he wants, but if he's picking a fight publicly with the administration's position in a delicate multi-party negotiation, that can end up impacting his ability to get the support he needs.

His point that Russia has not abided by previous agreements is well-taken. Clearly any future cease fire will need better enforcement provisions. But this is putting the cart before the horse: the deal that should have been signed today was not a cease fire, it was a mineral rights agreement. If and when a cease fire is on the table that Zelensky feels will be unenforceable, then he can criticize its provisions.



I don't really view Zelensky here as picking a fight. He was not really belligerent, if I was him I would've been livid at the things they were saying for the exact reasons Zelensky pointed out (and that's if ignoring how they were lecturing on diplomacy when they've spent the last couple months undermining his negotiation positions). I will admit it was a mistake for him to talk in this way but not because there's anything inherently wrong about it, just that Trump loves having his ass kissed and does not handle disagreement in a calm manner. It all seems more embarrassing for Trump and Vance than anything else


He’s entitled to be livid. But beggars can’t be choosers. And he’s in the position of the beggar.

I, for one, don’t want to keep dumping money on him throwing his citizens into the meat grinder.



I am okay letting Ukraine make their own decisions about their people and their land and willing to help them fight for their country. If someone invaded the US I would definitely fight before I gave it up so I don't begrudge someone wanting to keep their country (I'm always a bit surprised at Americans who expect them to want to give up. Where I grew up a lot of people owned guns and fantasized about fighting the good fight, whether against foreign tyranny or domestic. I've even seen people with a "Give me liberty or give me death" signs up in their house).

All that being said though it doesn't change anything about how the meeting went down. I've been lucky enough where I've literally never worked at a place where that would've been acceptable behavior, I've seen people talked to for less. To do that then double down more later was pretty embarrassing. Zelensky pushing back on their view on diplomacy in Ukraine didn't seem like a particular insult to me to make the meltdown make sense.

as sorta an aside: I was especially confused about them getting mad at Zelensky for telling them how to feel but as a native English speaker saying "you're going to feel it" means more you're going to feel the effects not you're going to feel a specific emotion (like after a hard workout at the gym if someone told me "you're going to feel it tomorrow" it would then be really weird for me to interpret that as them telling me how to feel emotionally). Trump responding he was going to feel strong was surreal and confusing to me. Especially with Zelensky as a non-native speaker it was weird to see Trump be the one struggling more with language. I can sorta understand agreeing with Trump politically but I just don't see how that was an acceptable or even normal way to react.

Anyway, that's a long post. I've watched the whole video and watching it just makes me feel like I've been taking crazy pills so I've thought about it a lot today.

Edit: and I forgot the whole thanking thing. Zelensky famously has thanked the US for aid and it seems like something they should know (even I was aware of it and confused while watching the video). But then Vance just pivoted to being mad about something else. Like people are talking about this like it's a policy dispute but I feel like I just watched some someone's villain arc on "The Bachelor", they seemed like reality TV characters.



> I am okay letting Ukraine make their own decisions about their people and their land

Sure. They can do what they want and so can we. We don’t owe them anything. And honestly, in a way we’re just enablers at this point. We’re enabling them to fight on and enabling them to pointless throw away more lives.



> I, for one, don’t want to keep dumping money on him throwing his citizens into the meat grinder.

Neither does he, Ukraine just wants real security guarantees.



And I want a beach front mansion. Beggars can’t be choosers. Maximize for peace and protecting human lives!


You're contradicting yourself. To maximize that peace and protection of human lives you need real security guarantees, otherwise there will just be a small break before the conquering starts again.


I've watched it. I disagree. Zelensky calmly and reasonably asked JD Vance a question regarding his answer to the reporter. It was all fine until Vance started with the "frankly I think it's very disrespectful" line. HE decided to escalate. What Zelensky asked was reasonable and pretty in character for him. They know he's uncompromising with dealing with Putin. The _diplomatic_ position is to understand both sides and mediate, not to try to get one of the sides to bow down to their aggressor.


watched it once, this is what I saw (Vance suddenly antagonizing Zelensky as if to entrap a known hothead), and then followed by the two sly comments from Trump "that’s why I kept this going so long" and "this is going to be great television"


This guy is a probably a Russian bot. He talks like Ukraine was 2 minutes away from a victory and Zelenskyy just needed to stfu for 30 more seconds to get it.


Vance seemed genuinely butthurt that Zelensky wasn't grovelling.


I think they did, but they didn’t expect Zelensky to punch back. He’s more of a fighter than either of them will ever be. Trump is the classic bully where all you need to do is push back. Then he folds.


Zelensky has nothing to lose at this point. If he takes the deal Trump proposed Ukraine will be paying the US and Russia for having been invaded in 2014 and again in 2022. And let’s not ignore the fact it was the US was propping up the politicians suggesting joining NATO and not renewing the lease on Sevastopol in 2015.


That is the real disgrace. This was a setup from day 1. A win-win to degrade Russia either way at Ukraine's expense.

I wish Zelensky made those points instead. "The US voted to open a NATO path for us, The US asked not to renew the base, and the US refused to negotiate with Russia when tanks were on our boarder. And now you want to walk away?"



Nothing to lose besides thousands more lives, of course.


No real security guarantees also means tens of thousands of lives lost when Russia gets back into gear and tries to take Ukraine a second time.


Second time? More like fourth time. First there was Crimea, then Donbas, then the current invasion.


You are correct, I should have said "again".


Why would Russia bother going through this again?


The same reason they did it the first time.


Because after bribing Trump with the ability to brag that he won the USA 500B of minerals, they will be able to march in without any US interference...


That doesn’t answer the “why?” at all. To what end?


Are you asking people to read the mind of Putin? Or speculate? It seems reasonable to believe that at the very least Putin wants the territory he attempted to take when he first invaded, Kyiv et.al.

Why would that change if he hasn't?



Because both Ukraine and Russia have changed? Ukraine is war torn, deeply in debt, and no longer provides the strategic benefit to Russia it might’ve in ‘22. Russia’s economy and populace needs to recover from being war-oriented.

They have their land bridge to Crimea now, and if I had to speculate, they’d be happy with a neutered neighbor that can’t join NATO, essentially a populated DMZ. I can’t see what benefit in wanting to take Ukraine on again after the dragged out meat grinder it was this time around.



So speculation then. Here's some more: because it won't be a dragged out meat-grinder if he has a puppet US administration/political party.


> Ukraine is war torn, deeply in debt, and no longer provides the strategic benefit to Russia it might’ve in ‘22.

Expanded access to the Black Sea and natural gas/minerals were and still are very important to Russia. Aside from these, a total victory would allow Putin to cement himself as a conqueror in Russian history books.



The deal was a sham -- it came with no guarantees.


Don’t victim blame.


Who do you think should pay for those invasions? Currently, it is the US/EU taxpayers.


I'd suggest the US, because they propped up the Ukrainian politicians who started saying it out loud they would join NATO (a big No-No since the fall of the URSS) and not renew the lease on Sevastopol (Russia's only naval base that operates throughout the year), but I'd settle with Russia, because, after all, they were first to cross the border with tanks.


Did trump fold?


I think Europe will see this as a clear sign that Trump just attacked one of their own. I would not be surprised if the EU nations soon call a conclave to discuss establishing a new compact for self defense (and economic interest) that EXCLUDES the US. If this does come to pass, then yes, Trump and all of America will have lost.

This bright shining revelation of just how ugly and stupid Trumpism truly is (and America, by proxy) may realign world powers for decades, to our great loss.



Maybe start talking about nuclear proliferation within europe. Put more cards on the Table.


That is an entirely different claim than "trump folds" if anyone pushes back, which doesnt seem at all accurate to me. If anything, he digs in his heels.

The only things that seem to sway him is the sentiment of his voters and the economy.

Bully or not, I think the entire schoolyard theory that bullies fold when pushed back is bunk, cartoon logic. Did Russia give up and go home when Ukraine pushed back?



Today he claims he never called Zelensky a dictator. You can call that folding, or being senile, or who knows.


It sure is awesome having a president where whenever they say anything that's obviously false, it's a toss-up whether it's dishonesty, senility, or just plain ignorance.


As sarcastic as this is and scary at the same time, when you’re right you’re right. Accountability is such a vapid concept in American discourse it is snipping the last vestiges of social contract between leaders and, well, those they claim to lead. Fear and loathing for what may come.


IMO it’s not a toss up, it’s just dishonesty. After a certain point we have to call a spade a spade.

Hell, even Trump supporters know it. Half the reason I’ve heard for that vote is that they know, and are relying on, Trump lying about various things.

Why vote for someone you know to be a liar? Not sure, but I did learn that non-Trump supporters generally take him much more at his word than Trump supporters.



Also fun, one reason can become another. Remember the sharpie-modified hurricane map? That could start as ignorance - he didn't have specific information on a threat to Alabama, but inferred it from a misjudgment of the information he did have. It could also be senility - he was given good information but he is unable to accurately or reliably retrieve it.

And then it became dishonesty when in the face of plenty of evidence to his being incorrect, he chooses to go on national TV and show a map modified with a marker, insisting he was right all along and no, it is the meteorologists who are wrong.



That was a day or two ago.


IMO, taking personal shots or in this case escorting Zelensky out because he pushed back is folding. That's not strength, it's petulant child energy who didn't get their way. You saw the same thing in the debates over crowd size.


A lot of strange definitions of folding in the responses.

I would consider "folding" to be backing down and giving in to whatever Zelensky requests.

Throwing a tantrum, embarrassing oneself, or even harming your own interests is distinct from folding.

If you tell a mugger, "what are you going to do, shoot me" and they do, the mugger is stupid but didn't fold.



I, too, think that they did and underestimated Zelenskyy. Trump would love to sell his deal. Now he just embarrassed himself and his nation again.


Only American MAGA supporters saw Zelensky being humiliated.

Anybody else saw Vance and Trump humiliating themselves. Showing the intellectual and emotional capacity of a middle schooler to the world while a man whose people are suffering occupation and mass casualties and deals with death every day just looks stunned.

To anybody with critical thinking skills it feels like Trump & Vance are talking about a TV show or video game. Completely disconnected from reality. Horrifying and shocking level of narcissistic immaturity.



They 100% set him up. A new block in the wall of proving that Trump is a Russian asset or dupe. I don't see how any other conclusion can be drawn by anyone paying attention. He consistently kisses up to Putin with little love messages via Fox news and other outlets, while doing his best to alienate the rest of the world. It would be different if he just washed his hands of the whole situation, however he always looks up to Putin and refuses to call him a dictator, I reckon because he was told that he would regret it if he ever did from his Russian contacts.




this seems like a misread. we get something out of sending resources to Ukraine. it's a decently-leveraged way to keep Russia, a would-be superpower, down for the next decade or so, to keep bleeding her without bleeding our own young men.

we do not have enough of an interest to go send young Americans to die. to deploy boots-on-the-ground forces for what amounts to a minor territorial war in a country with limited strategic importance beyond being a buffer state. smells too strongly of vietnam and korea.

to those who disagree with this, alright that's a fair position to hold. what number of young Americans is it appropriate for us to sacrifice to hold the donetsk and luhansk oblasts? how many of our children should we send to die? which number is reasonable and which is too great? if you don't believe there's a limit, and we should risk any number of Americans and potential nuclear exchange, why?

the minerals deal was actually a pretty fair offer the way it was worked out. then zelensky decided to, at the eleventh hour, push for a full security deal which isn't tenable from where we stand. this wasn't what had been discussed with Rubio; it was a bait-and-switch pressure tactic. zelensky was trying to either squeeze out that guarantee or humiliate the admin with failure coming from what otherwise would have been successful.

i think the constant lionization of zelensky has gone to his head. he feels confident in disrespecting nations who have invested significant resources in the war by refusing to so much as dress for the occasion, expecting the sort of standing ovation the prior administration and european leaders gave him. i can respect someone who's fighting for causes i generally support, as can most of my countrymen, but zelensky is no holy warrior and we have no moral duty to offer unlimited resources and manpower. we have aligned interests, but if not for that, there are more than enough domestic US issues that we otherwise would not (nor should we) send the sort of resources we have. similar thing with Israel: we have strongly overlapping interests but she needs to mind her place and toe the line if she wants our support.



> we do not have enough of an interest to go send young Americans to die.

This is a straw man: nobody asked you to.

> the minerals deal was actually a pretty fair offer the way it was worked out

There was nothing fair in that mineral deal: the US would get resources and Ukraine was getting... nothing. No security guarantees, no military support, nothing. Trump said it himself: he wanted it to get back what the US spent helping Ukraine so far.

Getting something for nothing is fair to you?

> as dress for the occasion

The is the King of Saudi Arabia at the white house: https://www.gettyimages.com/photos/president-obama-meets-wit...

This is the pope at the white house: https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/blog/2015/09/25/photos-...

This is Elon Musk giving an interview in the oval office: https://edition.cnn.com/2025/02/12/tech/elon-musk-x-oval-off...

Did they all disrespect the US?

Ukraine is sending its youngs to die to keep Russia (the west common enemy) at bay and your concern is... Zelinsky wearing a tie?



it's not a straw man. the security guarantees zelensky requested and used to hold up the deal extend to that.

US state dep't lawyers have generally understood "security assurance" to mean that we won't violate someone's territorial integrity, while "security guarantee" implies the use of military force to defend the security of a nation and her territorial integrity. unless and until we have a fully-autonomous military, this does, in fact, necessitate putting American servicemen at risk of death. this is why i think your analysis is a misread of the situation; i haven't seen media report this distinction well and it's hard to keep track of which treaty terms are vague sympathies with a general direction of action and which promise specific actions.

it was, in fact, a fair deal. the minerals deal was to ensure we got some sort of repayment for all the aid we've already sent and to make us a bit more comfortable with the additional aid they still want. since we are already well into the twelve figures w.r.t. aid to Ukraine it seems pretty reasonable. but i don't particularly think a minerals deal is worth sending young men to die halfway across the world in a border war over land the size of west virginia.

the saudi king was in his own cultural formalwear. the pope did the same. if zelensky wanted to dress down and call it "cultural formalwear", he should have tried an adidas tracksuit. what he did was simple disrespect. it's not the end of the world but i think he owes us more than this "great value steve jobs" routine. i dress better than that for a normal workplace.

"parroting russian talking points" isn't a good response or critique. i don't read RT or alt-right twitter. i agree we have some interest in keeping russia contained and it's generally a good move to put resources behind that. i do not think there's this odd moral obligation to do whatever it takes and back ukraine to the hilt. this is sort of a "heartbreaking, the worst person you know just made a good point" situation.



Given Ukraine has now been invaded multiple times by Russia it seems entirely right and reasonable for it to ask for guarantees, and not an imposition if the other nation was truly an Ally, in the formal definition of the word, no?


it seems like a huge imposition to ask someone to kick off a great power war that would likely leave millions of her children dead, yes. that's true in any case, but especially when one's entire geopolitical relevance is as a border state. not all alliances are or must be "we will do literally anything possible to protect your territorial integrity". it probably wouldn't make sense for us to make such an alliance since our territorial integrity hasn't been threatened in substance since the war of 1812. and because such an alliance would be a charity program where we give away young American lives to enable one political entity, rather than another, to govern scraps of low-value land an ocean and a continent away.

the whole "sending ukraine materiel is going to cause WWIII" thing is sort of bs russian propaganda. the idea that direct American military intervention isn't risking that is very much not.

again, how many Americans do you think it's appropriate for their own government to sign up to die for this cause? i think the number is zero. if you think it's higher, i'd very much like to understand why and how many you think is a reasonable number. i understand it'd be a ballpark figure, not a bright line, but i'd like at least an order of magnitude grasp of what people think is appropriate and why they think so.



By your own admission a defensive security guarantee will "kick off a great power war..." which is a way of saying Russia can't be trusted to keep the peace, no? Not that I disagree but I'm not sure it's as strong an argument against Ukraine's request as you think it is. It may have even been part of Neville Chamberlain's notes on the subject.


the chamberlain/weimar comparison is inaccurate for this case. germany was an ascendant power; russia is a crippled one. the war was actually a great investment because it's decimated russia's military population and stores of materiel and cut her off from the world enough to severely damage her economy. it will take substantial time for her to rebuild.

you can make a "what about czechoslovakia/poland/nazis" argument about heavy intervention in what would otherwise be any proxy war. you say czechoslovakia, i say vietnam, i say korea, i say the middle east.

the American interest in this war isn't so much "we love the ukraine" as "this is an effective way to cripple russia for the next decade by proxy". by doing so, we avoid that situation in a much smarter way than chamberlain. and because russia wasn't in that great of a spot to start with, a protracted war of attrition is really bad for her.

are you suggesting we should begin a war against russia, historically a massively losing proposition, over a couple oblasts of the ukraine? again, how many americans should we send off to die? how much should we weaken our resources for a much more concerning conflict with china?



> it's not a straw man. the security guarantees zelensky requested and used to hold up the deal extend to that.

It does not. Europe has been willing to send troops on the ground. The guarantee from the US could be in the form of equipment, air interdiction, etc. Note the the US already had guaranteed Ukraine sovereignty when it gave up its nukes. So no new treaty should even be necessary if the US only stuck to its words.

> it was, in fact, a fair deal. the minerals deal was to ensure we got some sort of repayment for all the aid we've already sent

No repayment was expected when the aid was given, otherwise it would have been given as loans.

Do you ask for repayment 2 years after giving people gifts? I would hate to be at your Christmas gathering.

> to make us a bit more comfortable with the additional aid

That's not how treaties work. You put, IN WRITING, something you agree to do and the other sides does too.

If Ukraine commits to give something while the US "feels good" about maybe doing something (or not, who knows?), that's not fair.

> what he did was simple disrespect

Musk holds conferences in the oval office in T-shirt and MAGA cap while his child scolds the president. Nobody stepped in to ask where was his suit, and certainly not the president.



no, i specifically referenced what state department lawyers have determined around the existing agreement with the ukraine: https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/05_tril...

a security guarantee necessitates a response adequate to maintain territorial integrity. i.e. in the current scenario we'd be obligated to send troops to stop the war of attrition and reverse the russian advance (which has continued since last year, if slowly.) that is precisely what zelensky wants. unfortunately for him, i don't value the ukraine enough to condemn my friends to go bleed out in an eastern european border state.

no repayment was demanded when the aid was given, true. however, the US changes leadership, and therefore policy, on a semi-regular basis. the condition of future aid is that past and future aid should be repaid to some extent, in some manner, at some point. rather than demanding cash or structuring a loan, the US proposed to find something else that would benefit both sides. implying that hundreds of billions of dollars in U.S. taxpayer dollars, at a time when boomer welfare is already bleeding the country dry, is equivalent to a Christmas gift is ridiculous. i think it was De Gaulle who said countries don't have friends, they have interests; foreign aid is a strategic tool and that alone, because the U.S. federal government is not a charitable organization.

you say "that's not how treaties work"; I say undeveloped nations have a long, long history of taking and later failing to repay loans from America or proxy organizations such as the IMF. if you're suggesting we restructure this as a loan, that seems like a monumentally poor investment, not to mention draining cash from a nation trying to rebuild is a similarly poor idea.

where did i say i approved of Musk's actions? i believe trump complemented zelensky's outfit today. i don't really care about what trump thinks of zelensky, musk, or anyone else's choice of presentation. i am not donald trump. i am saying i think it is disrespectful, doubly so given that he came calling with his hand out, again.



The point of the security guarantee is to ensure peace after a ceasefire. It doesn't make any sense to suggest US troops will be responsible for stopping the war or reversing territorial gains, because it will have already stopped. Some stasis of of the front lines, and possibly a DMZ would be a prerequisite.

But more likely, US troops won't be directly on the front lines even after a peace. It adds too much risk of either (super)power escalating in the event of casualties.



i don't believe the ukraine has shown willingness to accept anything less than a status quo ante bellum resolution. i don't really blame her for this - in her position, i'd push for everything back plus the crimea to boot - but that puts us in a very precarious position were we to guarantee her security.

the way i see this, it's fine if ukraine loses a little territory. since putin is an evil dictator and all, he can't especially afford to look weak, and anything less would back him into a corner. however, doing so is a risky move so we should hold off on that for another year or two until russia is truly crippled. ensure an economic depression and depletion of materiel that takes a decade to dig out of. by doing so, we also give the ukraine stronger security in fact, rather than merely on paper.

might be worth bargaining with the crimea: renounce claims to it in exchange for russia returning territory from the current war. realistically russia has wanted that spot at various points for hundreds of years as warm-water ports are too important for her.

i get that the point is to ensure peace after a ceasefire, but, as zelinsky said, russia has broken ceasefires before. we should not sign something like that simply on the assumption that it will make war too costly for russia. we should do so if and only if we're willing to engage in a shooting war/great-power conflict with russia over a couple oblasts. i don't think we're really willing to do that.



Yes this was my first thought. But then I understood that it's most probably the fact that the administration wasn't interested in the outcome of the conversation. My hypotesis is that Trump is living each day as unique, disconnected from the others, in a selfish way. So he didn't care about the consequences of this meeting for Zelenskyy and in general everything else.


It makes sense from His worldview. Ukraine are the weaker ones, the natural losers. He doesn't help losers. There is no further thought or consideration. That territory was always Russia's to take when they were ready.


I think it’s worse: Trump et al want to install a neofeudal system of society whereas Ukraine is fighting for the Westen Democracy kind of system. It’s clear that Trump wants to establish that as a futile endeavor


I think there's no actual plan, trump et al are just stupid. Looking at how DOGE is doing seems to coroborate this view.


Nah, they just care about money is all. They look at Ukraine and they don't see a profit to be made, so they demand payment or the withdrawal of aid. Greed plain and simple.


"Weaker" is a function of not just your own strength, but that of your allies. Russia wants Ukraine as a way to hit at Europe.

Ukraine and its allies are a match for Russia and its. Perhaps more so, since Ukraine's allies have limited its use of force. With the US out, Ukraine may be able to exert much more force.

Which is to say Trump's judgment of who is weak is deeply compromised by his belief in single strongmen. This will not go well for him.



> Ukraine's allies have limited its use of force. With the US out, Ukraine may be able to exert much more force.

I am curious about this. Why you say it?



Ukraine is limited in its use of American weapons. It can't strike well in Russian territory. The US wanted to keep the conflict from escalating beyond Ukraine's borders.

Europe has similar concerns, but if Ukraine loses American support, they may not be able to afford that. They might gamble on direct strikes on Moscow, or at least make it clear that they can.

Which might end life as we know it. Or it might force Russia to the bargaining table directly with Ukraine. Who knows? Let's find out!



It was a 40 minute long conversation and everything was fine until the last 5 minutes when Zelensky got mad about Vance talking about using diplomacy with Russia.


You can't have diplomacy with Russia, they don't respect any agreements, EU tried to partner up with them on trade as a "diplomatic" route, hoping that cash flowing both ways would be enough to keep Russia happy, but their ambitions go beyond a peaceful coexistence.


What Zelensky got mad about is that all previous diplomatic agreements with Russia have been broken by Russia when convenient. Even the Budapest Memorandum, where the US pledged security to Ukraine in exchange for them giving their nukes to Russia, is no longer honored. How can Ukraine trust that any deal made by Trump is going to be honored once Russia rebuilds its military if the US won't offer any assurances of peace?


I watched the entire press conference with Zelensky. There was 40 minutes of discussion up to the argument. Most people saw at most the last ten minutes. The whole video gives the proper context.

When I first watched the argument without the proper context, I thought it was possible that Trump and Vance ambushed Zelensky or were even trying to humiliate him. That's not what happened.

You had 40 minutes of calm conversation. Vance made a point that didn't attack Zelensky and wasn't even addressed to him, and Zelensky clearly started the argument.

In the first 40 minutes, Zelensky kept trying to go beyond what was negotiated in the deal. When Trump was asked a question, it was always "we'll see." Zelensky made blanket assertions that there would be no negotiating with Putin, and that Russia would pay for the war. When Trump said that it was a tragedy that people on both sides were dying, Zelensky interjected that the Russians were the invaders.

For his part, Trump made clear that the US would continue delivering military aid. All Zelensky had to do was remain calm for a few more minutes and they would've signed a deal.

The argument started when Trump pointed out that it would be hard to make a deal if you talk about Putin the way Zelensky does. Vance interjects to make the reasonable point that Biden called Putin names and that didn't get us anywhere.

The Zelensky/Trump dynamic was calm and stable. It was when Vance spoke that Zelensky started to interrogate him. Throughout the press conference to that point, everyone was making their arguments directly to the audience. Zelensky decided to challenge Vance and ask him hostile questions. He went back to his point that Putin never sticks to ceasefires, once again implying that negotiations are pointless. Why on earth would you do this? Then came the fight we all saw.

Zelensky was minutes away from being home free, and he would have had the deal and new commitments from the Trump administration. The point Vance made was directed against Biden and the media, taking them to task for speaking in moralistic terms. This offended Zelensky, and that began the argument.

I've been a fan of Zelensky up to this point, but this showed so much incompetence, if not emotional instability, that I don't see how he recovers from this. The relationship with the administration is broken. Ukraine should probably go with new leadership at this point.



the way I read what you wrote, it seems like you think Zelensky's argument is bad and purely emotionally motivated, but the fact that Putin/Russia has broken agreements and ceasefires is a very valid concern, isn't it?

if the conference had ended without argument but behind the scenes Trump/Vance were setting up negotiations that go against Ukraine's interest, that would not have been a "win" for Zelensky other than in terms of a contest of popularity - but only the popularity among westerners who have no real personal stake in the conflict. it's Ukrainians and Russians who are dying on the front lines.



Maybe Zelensky had a very thin path out after Vance's provocations, but even the language accents are partly to blame for miscommunication/crosstalk, so maybe for Zelensky it was a Kobayashi Maru situation.


Like you, I watched the full hour. I had the same analysis.

There are no winners from an exchange like this. Trump and Vance come across as bullies. Zelenskyy comes across as needlessly argumentative. Trump and Zelenskyy both come across as quick to anger. Not a good look for any of them.



I wish Zelensky had asked Trump if he wanted his feet kissed there and now because I feel like everyone could see that is what Trump wants at the very least.


Trump wants to be King.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdygrcFcyyY Jon Stewart & John Oliver Welcome America to Its Trump Monarchy Era | The Daily Show


Turns out Biden lost temper will Zelensky too


> It's shameful what our administration has done.

The shameful part was ten years ago.



They invited him to the White House to finally sign the rare earth minerals agreement, which he had said he'd sign and then renegged two times prior[0]. This was the third attempt by the US to get it signed. During the meeting, he indicated that he would sign the agreement but then not agree to a cease fire, which was the whole point of putting it in place. Naturally, this was a deal breaker for the administration and the meeting ended.

[0] https://x.com/RapidResponse47/status/1895633109649134013



That was a shameful display and a stain on our republic. Is it possible our nation is bankrupt (and we haven't been told) and these theatrics and all this talk about deals is in fact about settling debts?

One thing that is certain that such reckless behavior by the US executive will increase geopolitical instability. Nuclear proliferation is very much in the cards. And you can be certain the event was viewed with horror in Asian capitals where the notion of 'face' is a matter of cultural sensitivity. I wouldn't be surprised if Japan decides to go nuclear post-haste.



The good & the bad is that Japan could go nuclear very very fast because everything to make it is there, and given their (sometimes funny) "this aircraft carrier is actually a helicopter carrier for self-defense" kinda stance on defense, I wouldn't be surprised if half of the effort have already been secretly done.

The other good/bad is that the population is very, very, very against any nuclear weapon armament and even holding an army, even Shinzo Abe could only do an "reintrepertation of article 9" because he was aware of this. Public opinion might change with Trump + Taiwan/Korea incident though.



I’m sure you might’ve felt the same, but people are visibly (online and in person) are becoming more aware of how dependence on US might not be the most beneficial thing to do for the country in a long run. Locals really don’t like very in-your-face bullies.


I really don’t think you’re going to have a republic very much longer, so it probably doesn’t matter reputation wise.

I’m not sure what will happen, but I think the idea of a free and fair election for the next president is laughable at this point. Perhaps Americans haven’t realised this yet, I don’t know.



I normally avoid commenting on politics entirely but I feel compelled to comment here. I'm sure anyone who's ever been bullied in their life will feel exactly what's happening in that video clip. Two big kids, confident in their position and backing each other up, gang up on the outsider. Did they ever really want to make a deal at all? Absolutely infuriating and saddening to watch.


Yes it was out right bullying after being challenged. Vance quickly devolved to “don’t question us, say thank you”. I showed and discussed with my kids as example of textbook bullying


With such basic and seemingly silly, toxic tactics that they can get away with because of the power position they hold. Zelensky came there jet lagged, alone, while not being able to use his native language.


> ...not being able to use his native language

Which is ... Russian? Should have aligned himself with the Kremlin, like Lukashenko, if rhetoric/language mattered more for diplomacy and politics.

> toxic tactics that they can get away with because of the power position they hold

True. No matter the language such situations are bound to happen amidst power struggle.



I'm not making an observation about whether he should have used another language, but just that this was one of the reasons why he was at a huge disadvantage in terms of being able to deal with the blatant bullying.


What I'm saying is that language mattered little. If Zelensky was an anglophone from the UK, he was going to get shafted just the same (as it all looks like he walked straight into a trap there).


This comes across as highly dismissive. The man can speak three languages very competently. That's two more than Vance and three more than Trump. Obviously language matters, but for Ukrainians democracy and sovereignty matter more.


We are both making the same point. The language didn't really matter at all.


I repeat: language obviously matters, and it's one of many factors Trump/Vance exploited to create an intimidating atmosphere. But it's not such an overwhelming factor that it would make Zelensky turn to Russia.


> The man can speak three languages very competently. That's two more than Vance and three more than Trump.

Would be hilarious if it wasn’t so sadly true



Bad choice of target, though. Zelensky has stood up to Putin for three years; he's not going to be intimidated by one meeting with Trump and Vance.


Long list of reasons he is a bad target. A negotiating genius would have known that, which is why even Trump supporters were caught by surprise.

- Only between inauguration and this meeting did Trump even have positive approval. I think it’s uncontentious that Zelenskyy will forever poll higher.

- Around Trump there’s a force field to encourage him that he’s right. The awkward moment Tuesday was when Trump admitted his own numbers on aid given to Ukraine are spongy and faith-based, compared to Macron’s which were turgid, useful, virile, actually bankable.

- Zelenskyy arrived to talk about his thing (being a fighter) and the world saw an ambush by an investment banker and a one-time TV show character. Proving Trump’s at a disadvantage when the other guy is a fighter.

This last one seems the most damaging. Republican politicians had to come out and proclaim Trump is still tough and the biggest problem is that Zelenskyy doesn’t performatively respect that.



The thing for me is, fighting someone in a weaker position than you - even if you win - doesn't really make you look strong. Everyone knows you could beat that guy in a fight already. It just makes you look cruel.


Trump and Vance were saying things like "you're being disrespectful", and "you haven't said 'thank you'"--this level of argument is completely unproductive; it's what you would expect to hear from parents of dysfunctional families, not from world leaders.


And it betrays a total lack of care for substance. Zelensky has delivered public speeches in the US, while wearing a suit if that matters saying thanks to the US for their support. He just said it to the whole country, and while Biden was president. Trump doesn't care if the US gets credit, he wants to steal that credit personally, despite literally having been impeached for trying to extort Zelensky.

It's amazing levels of personal pettiness and ego. That's before you get to them inviting a Russian state news person to watch and then claiming they "snuck in" as if someone can just bumble into a meeting of world leaders.



Trump didn't demand credit or thanks from Zelensky. Vance did.

And Vance was literally just dropping hints to back down in front of the media and to present himself as grateful, because he saw the important talks about to be derailed before they even began:

> Vance: Have you said thank you once?

> Zelenskyy: A lot of times.

> Vance: No, in this meeting, this entire meeting? Offer some words of appreciation for the United States of America and the president who’s trying to save your country.

(And the entire heated conversation in general)

IMO, the language barrier really screwed Zelensky over.

> [Zelensky not wearing a suit]

Trump's attitude is that how you dress to an event is a sign of respect for the people you meet. Many disagree with this attitude, but if that's how someone you're going to meet thinks, then you adjust to it. Like not showing up in gym clothes to a job interview.



The thing is... That even if Zelensky did have the perfect dress code, perfect niceties, the whole thing was a setup with trying to pressure Zelensky into a bad deal. And if Zelensky was not to accept it the goal was to humiliate and embarrass him publically. So Vance and Trump would have gone for any other possible targets they can find, or alternatively invent some. So they kept provoking Zelensky whole time and even before when Trump called Zelensky a dictator, which is far more disrespectful than anything Zelensky has done. Even through that, it's crazy the patience Zelensky had.


> the whole thing was a setup with trying to pressure Zelensky into a bad deal.

The deal was quite good. It basically coupled the rebuilding of Ukraine (and ownership shares resulting from it) to a fund, rather than the government itself.

If Russia had then taken over Ukraine, they'd have to expropriate the fund to gain any benefits, but that'd also mean expropriating the minority ownership of the US.

> Trump called Zelensky a dictator, which is far more disrespectful than anything Zelensky has done.

Sure, but he is, and that's a huge issue for any negotiations going forward. Ukrainian martial law only delays parliamentary elections, not presidential ones.

If Zelensky doesn't either get a democratic mandate or recognized as an official negotiator by the Verkhovna Rada, any agreements made with him can later just be rejected by Ukraine.



The deal was awful and Ukraine would get nothing but delayed destruction. he isn't a fool. Rebuilding is useless with security to not have it torn down in 5 years when Russia recovers.

>Sure, but he is

Oh, so we're not going to have a productive conversation, then.

>"PACE President Tiny Kox: It is up to the Government, Parliament and the people of Ukraine to decide when and how to conduct elections"

https://www.coe.int/en/web/kyiv/-/pace-president-tiny-kox-it...

Pretty much every country has martial law rules. So disagree or not, to call someone a dictator while defending against a war is outright malicious in my mind.



Not sure how to delete my previous comment but the claim that martial law extends only the power of the parliament is wrong. I've clearly relied on a bad source of information.

There is a strong argument that the Ukrainian President looses a lot of powers when his term ends under martial law, but negotiating international treaties is not one of them.

The Ukrainian constitution doesn't explicitly allow for the President to remain in office under martial law, but it does not allow for pretty much any elections and doesn't provide for a transfer of power as it does under other circumstances.

It also requires the office of the President to not be vacated.

.

So, the transfer of power that would occur under an irregular vacancy from the President to the Prime Minister likely occurs to the President himself if his term ends under martial law?



Without security guarantees against Putin, it is not a good deal. That was what Zelensky was there to secure.


Kinda, but the US made clear that at this point they will only back Zelensky in the negotiations.

Without Russia and Ukraine agreeing on how to end this war, split the spoils and salvage the little that's left, outside parties will hardly be willing to commit to enforcing the peace.

Ideally a solution can be found that wont make Ukraine (or Russia) dependent on the mood of an outside party, but if that's realistic is questionable at best.

I think the phases of negotiations could look about like this:

1. Cease and freeze the conflict

1. a) Build a framework for rebuilding Ukraine and Russia

2. A third party establishes with both sides the format of the upcoming negotiations.

3. Both sides find partners backing them, establish their minimum positions and ways to compromise on them without giving up on them (e.g. if territory can't be regained, shared management and dual citizenship for the people living there might be possible)

(4.) The neutral third party, together with the partner countries of both sides establishes sanctions for violations during the negotiations.

5. Very messy negotiations on the outcome of the war

6. Even messier negotiations on a security framework between the two countries

7. Mudslinging contest on security framework involving all relevant parties

8. Sign peace deal.

9. Try to toss aside Ukraine, get reminded what you agreed to in 1. a), regret ever having agreed to that extortion racket



> 1. a) Build a framework for rebuilding Ukraine and Russia

What do you mean rebuilding Russia?

> The neutral third party, together with the partner countries of both sides establishes sanctions for violations during the negotiations.

Sanctions so far have done nothing to deter Russia.

The problem with negotiations is that Russia would never come to a peace agreement which legitimately had potential influence on them not being able to invade again. Because their goal is to invade again, after the peace deal.

Either you overpower them and show effectively that you have overpowered them, or they keep coming.

The only peace deal Russia would accept is if:

a) It just allows them to invade again as soon as possible.

b) It tells them not to invade again, but the consequences are meaningless so they'll invade again and nothing happens, and the same thing repeats again.

There's a fundamental misunderstanding of what Russia is. To simplify this, you need to think of it as a bot playing Civilization that is programmed to maximize its territory gains, while at the same time have some sort of uncensored LLM spewing random justifications for why they are invading, and influence on other countries to have them approve of those invasions.



> What do you mean rebuilding Russia?

Russia has taken quite a bit of damage, too (although it's tiny compared to Ukraine).

But most importantly: No matter who ends up responsible for the costs in each of the cases, both countries need a clear way to full recovery.

Otherwise you're just going to end up with an East-West Germany situation at best or an Mexico-US situation (cartels, crime, human trafficking, smuggling) at worst.

> Sanctions so far have done nothing to deter Russia.

Because the price the sanctions imposed were lower than the price not continuing would have.

If the price is simply staying at the table and keep talking, even minor sanctions would get the job done.

> Russia would never come to a peace agreement which legitimately had potential influence on them not being able to invade again. Because their goal is to invade again, after the peace deal.

I honestly dont understand why so many people hinge their entire position on this.

Russia has been warning about the situation we've got right now since at least 2002 and VERY explicitly since at least 2007.

Why do so many people keep ignoring everything Russia has talked about for decades (CFE treaty, NATO expansion, OSCE format failure, ongoing military escalation and lack of security guarantees) and just jump straight to:

Putin likes land and Putin wants to rebuild the USSR.

There isn't even the slightest sliver of evidence for this, infact quite the opposite:

- Putin could have easily kept Georgia in 2008

- The nations east of the Caspian Sea are infinitely easier to integrate into Russia, but no such efforts were undertaken

- Belarus could have been integrated into Russia much more easily, too

- There were plenty of very pro-Russian governments in Ukraine, Putin could have utilized to tie Ukraine politically much more closely to Russia with the intent of taking over in the future

> Either you overpower them and show effectively that you have overpowered them, or they keep coming.

Just the bloody opposite. The Russian mindset puts the security of the nation first. If you attempt to overpower them, they will keep escalating until either side becomes incapable of fighting.

Which is an incredibly dangerous course to take against a nation that is sitting on the Soviet nuclear stockpile.

And yes, the nukes work. All (except NK and Israel?) nuclear nations keep regular inspecting each other's nuclear arsenals for proper maintenance and functionality. And nukes are VERY simple weapons. The by far most complicated component being the conventional explosive chain involved and nobody questions Russia's capabilities on that part.

> while at the same time have some sort of uncensored LLM spewing random justifications for why they are invading

Agreed, except for the "uncensored" part. It's heavily censored, just in a very ... unconventional way.

It's hard to imagine who came up with these talking points:

- Satanist necromancers raising the Nazis from their graves

- Supersoldiers being bred in secret laboratories

- Caveman drawings having been found depicting Ukraine and Russia as one country with Moscow as its capital

.

On the other hand, everything said since the 2022 invasion is hardly to be taken seriously, since all official diplomatic dialog broke down.



Nothing Putin is saying can be taken seriously or at face value. I am from a country neighboring Russia. In fact, if Ukraine was to fall, we would be one of the next targets. We all here understand who and what Putin is. We used to be under the USSR and thankully we were able to restore our independence. Putin's rhetoric constantly contradicts with itself. He wants to build a legacy. He wants to be the largest power in the World. He wants territory. Russia is the reason why our country has mandatory military service, which I attended as well. Year of my life. All we want is to be indendent and live our own peaceful life. Unfortunately we haven't been blessed geographically. The past for us is enough evidence of what Russia is. It is very hard to see Russian propaganda making its way to US in such strides, it is hard to see people believing this type of thing. Dictators only understand strength. It won't go to nukes, this is also Russian propaganda and Putin threatens nukes weekly, everyone knows he is bsing.

It is clear, Putin has something over Trump or Trump just has some twisted strategy here that I can't make sense of. There was never going to be a deal that would work out well for Ukraine.

Now Europe must do without support of US. Democracy in US has unfortunatly been compromised and failed.



Just to clarify, Zelensky thanked Trump for the invitation at the beginning of the meeting.


Or showing up to a cabinet meeting in a graphic t shirt and ball cap?

Get a grip. Trump has no stable “attitude” toward anything whatsoever except whatever he thinks accrues him more power and wealth, full stop.

He’s a well known germaphobe who will let a child wipe snot on his work desk if it means getting a little closer to whatever God King status he’s dreamt about since his mother abandoned him and his father psychologically abused him.



Please don't cross into breaking the site guidelines (e.g. "Get a grip.") no matter how right you are or feel you are.

Also, can you please stop posting in the flamewar style to HN? We've had to ask you that more than once before.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html



Apologies! Tbc I haven't seen any responses from you before, not sure if I missed them somehow.


> Or showing up to a cabinet meeting in a graphic t shirt and ball cap?

Sure, not what Trump likes.

But what Zelensky was wearing did have very little influence on the outcome of the meeting at best.

People dislike Zelensky having been called out on not wearing a suit, I merely explained why Trump puts importance on this.

We don't know if Trump called out Musk on not wearing a suit and what Musk's response might have been.

Overall the importance of wearing a suit is quite low, not at all proportionate to the outrage of Zelensky being called out for not wearing one.

> Trump has no stable “attitude” toward anything whatsoever except whatever he thinks accrues him more power and wealth, full stop.

How would Zelensky wearing a suit help Trump to further this agenda of his?

> He’s a well known germaphobe who will let a child wipe snot on his work desk

Yes, he is. But he tries to hide his actions resulting from that. Like getting behind something like a chair and wiping his hand on his suit.

We don't know if he cleaned the desk afterwards.

What, in your opinion, would have been the correct action he should have taken against the child?



… I don’t think anyone on “Ukraine’s side” here thinks it’s actually relevant whether Zelensky wore a suit or not. It is right-wing Twitter that’s acting like it’s such a huge disrespect and affront to America.

Your point is that Trump cares about decorum. My point is that Trump cares about power, and he would seize on whatever little thing he could to try to gain more power over our wartime ally. The suit is obviously a red herring.

You think when bullies make fun of a kid’s shoes they actually care about fashion? Duh: no.

When someone calls out a bully for making fun of someone’s shoes, is it because they give a fuck about their fashion choices? Duh: no.

That’s all that’s going on here.



Yup, sums it up nicely, I think.


Trump demanding that Zelenskyy dress the way Trump would prefer is what a narcissist does. "Oh, he must be wearing that just to upset me."

No you self-important tool, he's wearing that because his nation is at war with Russia. Zelenskyy wears military clothes to every meeting, with every leader, not just you.



I found the matching suits curious:

https://apnews.com/article/republicans-trump-zelenskyy-meeti...

See second image.



It's exactly the dialog a gang member would use during a shakedown.


> "you're being disrespectful"

This, coming from: the one who openly calls opponents insulting names and openly proposes annexing other countries like a drivelling, senile elder; and the other, who toured Europe like a witless yokel scolding EU leaders for not being democracies...

This is the US losing its credibility and the confidence of its allies at a time when the US depends on these alliances.



It's something the US patriotic wing cares about a lot.

It doesn't take much to satisfy their need (basically just nice words about the US), but they'll absolutely burn bridges if they come to the conclusion that you're unwilling to show the US this courtesy.

Trump very obviously being part of this wing, is one of the reasons that gave his campaign for the first term such a huge boost. People were convinced that he wouldn't betray the US, like they were betrayed by nearly every politician before (but maybe Bill Clinton, although, in hindsight, he absolutely screwed over Europe by continuing the Russian shock therapy and not supporting Russia in updating the CFE treaty).

Vance is somewhat part of this wing, too, but to a much lesser degree than Trump. E.g. he acknowledged in his speech at the MUC SecConf, that the US made what he considers to be past mistakes, but Trump pretty much never acknowledges what he blames on Biden and Obama to have ever been official US policy (even if he doesn't outright deny it).

.

Hence when Zelensky suggested the US will "feel it", too, in a slightly threatening way (due to the language barrier, I guess), Trump literally blew a fuse. You could see his head changing color in real time. I'm surprised he had the patience left to toss out the media semi-politely.

IMO, Zelensky should have picked up on Vance's hints to present himself grateful and stop trying to get commitments from the US infront of the media. Next time he should negotiate in his native language and bring a very capable translator, because picking up on such nuances is anything but easy if you're quite inexperienced in a language.

.

Trump is not really vindictive, despite his talking points (see him refusing to retaliate on Iran for shooting down that $150M drone, him not going after H. Clinton at all once in office, selecting Vance as his Vice, meeting with Scarborough and Brzezinski, ...).

So Zelensky got a good chance to set things straight, but Trump has also made clear that how the US progresses from here is up to Ukraine making the next move.

Knowing Trump a bit, he will push ahead with talks with Russia and keep increasing pressure on Ukraine until Zelensky agrees to a ceasefire and joins the table by making talks with Russia legal again.

.

Also Zelensky should take that "minerals deal". Despite being sold as such, it doesn't give any minerals to the US, but establishes an Ukrainian semi-sovereign fund with the focus of rebuilding Ukraine, financed through the Ukrainian government's revenue from natural resources and financial injections by the US.

Over time it'll also turn into a fully sovereign fund for Ukraine (unless the US keeps pumping absurd amounts of money into it) and Ukraine can withdraw money from it if they need it elsewhere.



> Also Zelensky should take that "minerals deal". Despite being sold as such, it doesn't give any minerals to the US, but establishes an Ukrainian semi-sovereign fund with the focus of rebuilding Ukraine, financed through the Ukrainian government's revenue from natural resources and financial injections by the US.

Issue is about not having any security guarantees. Problem with dictatorships is that they won't ever stop. The deal is beneficial for Russia. Russia will see it as a win which will encourage them to do the same thing every few years on repeat. Territory is one of the few limited resources in the World. Dictators desperately crave for it. Any economical damage they think is temporary and they see it as an investment. They certainly don't feel economy being bad. But they will feel powerful, but gaining territory. Only deal Zelensky should sign is one which will ensure that Russia doesn't invade Ukraine or any other countries again. Any other deal is a fake peace. Everyone around Russia and who has experience with Russia knows this. E.g. ex soviet countries.

I think the whole thing was a setup, and while Zelensky made mistakes, even with perfect behaviour, it was bound to go in this direction since the deal presented was not something Zelensky or a person with democratic values should accept, and Trump's goal was to humiliate him into submission from the get go.

Consider how much provocation Trump and Vance had done before that, calling Zelensky a dictator, the patience the man had is already amazing to last so long. But they would've kept provoking him until he says something which they can escalate on to humiliation.



> Any economical damage they think is temporary and they see it as an investment.

That's kinda what the deal is about, tho:

1. Ukraine gets rebuild, the US and Ukraine own huge portions of Ukraine's new industry through the fund

2. The fund gets richer and richer with Ukraine slowly taking over management, the US retaining a minority portion

3. Russia attacks Ukraine, captures all of it

4. Nearly all remaining industry and rights to natural ressources are retained by the fund, managed by Ukraine's exile government

5. Russia wants to expropriate the fund to cut off the funding available to the exile government

6. Russia realizes they'd have to expropriate the US government, starts sweating

7. Russia wakes up and decides not to proceed with step 3. to 6., because the downsides of taking over a country (insurgency, tons of explosives everywhere, new huge portions of population on expensive welfare and healthcare, ...) aren't worth it without any of the upsides.

> Issue is about not having any security guarantees.

Because they're not even negotiated yet. The "minerals deal" is something the US and Ukraine can negotiate right now, so it's on the table.

For all the other stuff Russia and Ukraine need to come to the same table, which Ukraine is very reluctant to do.

Trump only tried to get Ukraine to agree to a bare minimum ceasefire, to stop the killing.

Everything else is up to negotiations afterwards.



> Russia realizes they'd have to expropriate the US government, starts sweating

Not sure what you mean by that? Russia would just nationalize the assets. What would US do about it, if they are not willing to do anything so far? The ownership in this fund would just be nice to have, not make it worth going for Russia then any more than now. And in any case Russia could just make an offer to share the minerals themselves, which they already did. It wouldn't make a difference to US.

> Russia wakes up and decides not to proceed with step 3. to 6., because the downsides of taking over a country (insurgency, tons of explosives everywhere, new huge portions of population on expensive welfare and healthcare, ...) aren't worth it without any of the upsides.

Historically Russia has repeatedly demonstrated willingness to harm their economy in return for gaining more territory.

This deal is worthless in terms of deterring Russia, if Russia is not deterred currently, this deal is not going to make a difference.

The most important thing to Ukraine is - how can we make sure that Russia doesn't invade us again. Everything else is worthless for Ukraine, for the West, and for Democracy.



Russia could also agree to keep the fund as it is, just expropriate the Ukrainian government and continue paying dividends to the USA.

Maybe it has already been agreed on, by the way.



> Russia would just nationalize the assets. What would US do about it, if they are not willing to do anything so far?

I do not know what keeps governments from doing this, tbh.

But up until now Russia has done so exclusively in a retaliatory manner.

Or them paying their debts to the clearing houses, despite US citizens having been forbidden from accepting their money.

Same with the EU not outright taking over Russia's currency reserves, but taxing them at 100%.

There's something that prevents governments from screwing around on this, even if I do not quite understand what it is.

And the US gov is probably quite high up on the list of entities not to mess with.

> And in any case Russia could just make an offer to share the minerals themselves, which they already did.

Sure, but it's not about the minerals at all. The relation between minerals and this deal is about the same like the relation of a pineapple tree to pizza.

> Historically Russia has repeatedly demonstrated willingness to harm their economy in return for gaining more territory.

Or for no reason whatsoever. But it's not really fair to compare the Communists or the Tsarist Empire to modern Russia.

> The most important thing to Ukraine is - how can we make sure that Russia doesn't invade us again. Everything else is worthless for Ukraine, for the West, and for Democracy.

Ukraine needs to work on this with Russia.

Russia has made clear that they want security guarantees themselves, so a universal solution might be viable. The problem being, that Russia doesn't feel threatened by Ukraine, but those backing it.



Should be obvious why it looks like one side is talking seriously and the other is flailing:

Ukraine could just sell the lease for minerals in Russian-held territory. That could all be done in uninteresting ways without Zelenskyy.



> Trump literally blew a fuse. You could see his head changing color in real time.

I wonder whether this was deliberate on Zelenksy's part. The whole world witnessed Trump's insecurity and naivety in real time.



Thank you for the voice of sanity.


Yup. I started having dreams about bullying recently, even before today's scene.


Hold on are you claiming to be experiencing prophetic dreams?


muad'dib


100% bullying.

Something that isn't seemingly being commented widely on either is that Vance started hitting Zelenskyy with bursts of multiple questions and as soon as he started answering the first there were immediate challenges and redirections.

English isn't Zelenskyy's first language. Imagine how tough this must have been.

At that point the questions weren't questions anymore - they were statements that were left unchallenged.



Vance just gets worse and worse every day, and so does certain SV circles’ infatuation with him. An absolute snake.


Vance works for a guy that he himself used to call Hitler. That tells you everything you need to know about Vance.


Yeah but that doesn’t rule him out in the struggle for succession. Because the VP can’t be primaried in 2026, he’s at the disadvantage that he won’t know if Musk will fund him; he’ll have to fundraise as the conventional pick.


Yup, it was a gish gallop with a dollop of DARVO.


> Something that isn't seemingly being commented widely on either is that Vance started hitting Zelenskyy with bursts of multiple questions and as soon as he started answering the first there were immediate challenges and redirections.

It's a (shitty) debate tactic called "gish galloping." It's not exclusively used by people on the right, but there are some very popular online personalities on the right who use it. Ben Shapiro is easily the most infamous for using it, but Jordan Peterson and Trump himself use it too.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop



It's more than that. Some people in the audience started harassing Zelensky as well for not wearing a suit. It's just sad how the US has given up on diplomacy thinking that the worldstage is a businness as usual


Not just "some people" but specifically a MAGA Republican Senator's boyfriend.


Dressed up like a journalist, an obsequious irrelevant Greek chorus.


That moment seemed to me to be when Zelensky realized (or accepted) that it was a 'bullies ganging up' setup, and started pushing back.


They never wanted a deal. If they wanted one it would have been negotiated and done before Zelensky stepped on American soil.

I don't want to fall into the conspiracy trap, but I can't help thinking this was planned on advance. Especially considering how couch man acted. Trump was wandering around aimlessly until Vance took command.



[flagged]



Just makes it so much worse doesn't it?


Thank you for making OP's point. They are world leaders, and here they are acting like children on a playground.


They don’t seem to realize that.


Nation-state politics often devolves to the level of children on a playground. This was one of those occasions.


Not always. That third guy, the on the left, behaves himself like a responsible adult should.


America did used to have real diplomacy, in the sense that there was an active dialogue between diplomats in America and their counterparts abroad. During the unipolar moment, they gave that up. That's beyond dangerous and frankly suicidal.


Someone should tell them.


I think you watched a different clip to the one I watched...


Citation needed.


Technically, yes, but Nition was just drawing parallels between their behavior and that of children to show how incompetent and immature they are.


So, watching the video as a brit with a number if Ukrainian friends and colleagues, my first reaction is that this is the Trump Whitehouse looking for a cheap win.

However, I think their calculation here speaks to the difficulty of the current situation.

Putting aside the morality, sovereign integrity, and such: the situation appears to be entering/in a stalemate. The Ukrainian forces have done well to proactively take and hold Russian territory, and have held the line pretty well. However, there does not seem to be a play here that will conclusively end Russian occupation presently. The best case seems to be waiting out the supply of Russian troops, but the Ukrainian army doesn't have an endless supply of volunteers in this regard (I've worked with a few who have).

So the question has to be asked: how does this end decisively if neither side can win outright? And how much support is required to maintain the status quo?

I hate to say it, but I think they will likely have to lose territory. I think they could argue for greater security architecture (i.e. part of NATO but no nukes) to prevent repeat. But otherwise I can appreciate why the current administration is where its at.

Its a sorry situation all around.



There is precisely one solution, which is western troops on the ground in Ukraine.

Yes that’s terrifying, no it won’t lead to world war three.

Any other solution leads to widespread war across the globe.

As I’m fairly confident the west won’t put troops on the ground to fight russia, you can test my hypothesis by watching china start making moves on Taiwan in the short term, and then further wars breaking out over the next few years. I’ll go with several African countries, the Middle East (Jordan, Iran, Syria, Iraq), turkey, and once the Ukraine situation has settled multiple Eastern European countries. Worst case you’ll see the baltics invaded by Russia, I think there’s a good chance of that. Finland an outside bet.

I may be wrong, but I did anticipate the coup in turkey, Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, and the election of trump.

Enjoy your life whilst you can. Conscription is coming. There will be a lot of western troop deployments. These are the good old days.



The west feels asleep at the wheel, and the next generations (including mine) have been so heavily insubordinated and worn down economically and spiritually that their capacity for envisioning a positive new future and policy seems minimal. Land grabs are back on the menu. The next generation of leaders has grown up on tiktok.

A young friend I know is a political "golden child" on the fast track to le4dership but only 3 years ago was talking about manosphere people and shoving tiktoks down my throat. I can't possibly communicate to you strongly enough how broken and emotionally stunted this coming generation is due to social media.

Happy I'm in tasmania, aus, learning to be a self sufficient young person. I'm living through the mistakes of the weak willed generations that came before me.

We have 5-10 years of bad enough normalcy left. The world, and us, the people in it, and our "common values" are going to be unrecognisable in 20 years.

I can't understand how we got so weak and unintelligent. Social media played a big role, and the elimination of anything except self aggrandisement in the popular culture, and the stupid labelling of anything a little nerdier as autistic or adhd or yada yada shows a society detaching itself from and losing patience for structured intelligence. Russia is behind a lot of this, and they place both sides. They bolster and distort transgender and autism communities etc as cultural weapons as much as they do conservative and libertarian ones. Their aim is to destroy the idea of the "normal" rational base.

To say russia is dumb, or slow moving is infantile. This is a calculating machine of evil which never rests and preys on the weakness and innocence of the west. I'm sure their propaganda divisions have their own cities at this point.

Read putins people and listen to londongrad s1 to understand just how hollow "western democratic institutions" are. Listen to WEF sexual escorts talk about how there's two camps of people who attend, one that believes climate change is going to end everyone, and the other that believes it almost will, and how the attendees gloat "tax the rich" as a joke as a running joke at bars. Read about how the ex IPCC head says there's a chance for 5°c warming. The world and the system you know is gone.



Funny, we were talking about where you should live to escape the attention of the superpowers and Tassie came up. A beautiful place.

I think we got here through the foolish release of unfettered capitalism after being spoilt by peace in the western for so long. Thatcher/Reagan decided there was no such thing as society, and then went about making it so.

This created the anger and resentment amongst people left behind by the actions of so many corporations. Essentially, neoliberalism.

The second major part of the problem has been social media (although arguably just another consequence of corporate greed), which has enabled the harnessing of that anger. It has also created complete polarisation, as exemplified by the AGI is here we are all going to die / AI is a complete con split (to give a HN example).

The solution, as always, is for the rich and the powerful (including, say, academics and civil servants) to change their ways. But once institutions are failed and governments and companies are corrupt, that is very hard (impossible?) to do.



> I think they could argue for greater security architecture (i.e. part of NATO but no nukes) to prevent repeat. But otherwise I can appreciate why the current administration is where its at.

The current administration is redundantly clear that it won't allow Ukraine to join NATO to avoid antagonize Russia.



Well, it's either NATO or nukes, the man himself said it.


Why do they empower a war lord such as Putin? In what universe should the US care about if they offend Russia? Will they put Iran over Israel next?


Maybe they don't view him as a warlord but ideologically aligned friend.

Israel is a conservative Jewish state which is more ideologically aligned with current administration than a Islamic state.



Yeah, I think they'll fold on that point, too, but the main stumbling block for Ukraine is that Russian guarantees mean little in a post-2021 invasion context given they made the same overtures after 2014.

The idea of the entire country becoming a DMZ just smacks of Putin lining up the next play and a Russian-leaning leader put in Zelenskis place.



Used to be UA needed EU+USA.

Now EU, sans USA, needs UA, because EU is militarily weak.

If UA falls, EU will fall also; it cannot stop Vladimir, and this before considering the massiive impact of drones, which only RU and UA know how to operate effectively.

EU+UA is enough to keep UA up and this protects EU.

All in all, EU will keep UA up, however it is done, and in the end it will require EU military involvement. Maybe we get there sooner now, rather than later.

I think the capability to retake lost UA terrain belongs to USA and massive military buildup in UA.

EU military in UA keeps UA up just fine, but doesn't retake terrain - not enough military force for that.

Ends up with cease-fire, and UA not in NATO, as USA/HU/SK will prevent it, but probably security guarantees and troops on ground from rest of EU.

Everyone then settles down to the next cold war (and RU economy post-war spends a while in strong recession, taking immediate pressure off).

Problem is, Vladimir effectively subverts Western elections through social media.

How do you have free and fair elections with that going on?



Many characterize Putin's current position as taking as much territory as possible, while staying in the game long enough for US political climate to change. So I'd posit back, how would Putin's posture change if the US right was as aligned as the left on supporting Ukraine as long as it took? I suspect he would have taken a deal long ago.

Trump wants it to look as though he is the one making the deal happen, but the reality is he's the only reason it has not happened already. IMHO.



I agree with your point about Putin waiting for the WH administration to change. Were the president hawkish on Russia, however, I still doubt Putin would back down.

Putin needs to be seen to win at home to play to his core base. Biden wouldn't let him, Trump will, but to Putin that means:

1. Control of annexed territory. 2. No Ukrainian nukes. 3. No NATO/EU membership for Ukraine. 4. Zelenski removed and puppet/anti-democratic leader installed.

What we're hearing post-meeting is Trump laying the groundwork for point 4 and taking a firm position on 1.



Putin's aim is the complete destruction of Ukraine as a nation and the removal of the current democratically elected administration. Until that he can be only stopped with force.


I think what we have in Trump is a quintessentially weak leader. weak in a sense that he is easily led. Whoever speaks the most authoritatively with him last is who gets to set his direction.

Vance set the stage in that session, and Trump ran onto the stage and tried to make sure he was in the spotlight the whole time.



> I hate to say it, but I think they will likely have to lose territory. I

I don't think it's territory what Putin wants. Even without its current territories, if Ukraine turns out to be successful and recover in the next 10 years, what will this mean to the Russian population? A total and absolute surrender of Ukraine is the end goal. No EU, no NATO, just another vassal-president and things go on like they were before 2022, but this time with half-destroyed country.

This war should have never started, I actually agree with Trump on this. But for that to happen, NATO should have entered Ukraine the first week after Putin did. And to those in Europe that argue against it, I would only say - are we better off now?



When I look back at it, Dugin was right back in November:

"So we have won. That is decisive. The world will be never ever like before. Globalists have lost their final combat. The future is finally open. I am really happy."

https://x.com/AGDugin/status/1854136340184490282

Dugin wasn’t exaggerating when he said, “We have won.”

Today’s White House display is exactly what he meant. A decade ago, the GOP would’ve never echoed Russian talking points. Now, they’re openly aligning with them.

This isn’t just isolationism—it’s the dismantling of U.S. hegemony from within.



I've been turning my attention to cold war and post-cold war Russia, their espionage, writing and interviews from various defectors, and generally trying to understand if talk of Russian influence is overblown.

It seemed very conspiratorial on its surface. I'm now fairly convinced that the Russians have been refining their espionage for generations, the USA is likely full of agents in all places of society.

Somewhat frighteningly, they anticipated the need to subvert any notions of this occurring, and very explicitly set out on a campaign to destroy trust and truth in US society such that when people began claiming Russia was infiltrating the country, it would just sound like conspiratorial nonsense. You can find plenty of references to this type of initiative going back 50 years at least.

The idea, ultimately, is to get the USA to destroy itself, as you mentioned. The dismantling of democracy in particular is a major accomplishment. Once that trust is eroded, every American's most immediate enemy is another American. Who cares about Russians when you've got neighbours like these, right?

It's hard not to see what's happening as a major victory for Russia. Did they actually orchestrate it? How much? I have no idea. Maybe only slightly, maybe a lot. Regardless, they're celebrating today.



They (Russia) have lost big time, because their goal was total annexation of the country in a couple of weeks. Now they got a unified Europe and Ukraine which is much stronger. Finland in NATO, and other things not to their liking. Not to mention a bunch of young and old people going back from front and causing chaos.

It is funny how they switched their narrative from “we are fighting US and NATO” to “US will do business with us and the war is with Ukraine”.



Finland and Sweden in NATO is a huge setback, but they'll probably get Crimea, Donetsk, Luhansk, Kherson, and Zaporizhia, plus a guarantee against Ukraine joining NATO. This is not a great outcome for Russia, but it's certainly better than a NATO Ukraine and a second Euromaidan in Red Square next year, which was probably the alternative on offer.

Also, it seems likely that Russia will get the dismantlement of NATO as part of the outcome of the war, and that would be a great outcome for them. Will Sweden and Finland remain in a mutual defense pact with France, Germany, and the UK after NATO ends? It's up in the air. But in any case invading Russia from Sweden is vastly less feasible than invading Russia from Ukraine.



I think by 'we' Dugin meant 'anti-globalists', not Russia. There are pro-globalists in Russia and anti-globalists outside of Russia, so one doesn't equal the other.


Has there ever been a meeting that went this bad in front of journalists?


No, this was shocking on multiple levels. What motivates the nominally most powerful person on the planet to behave like this?


He wants to defund U.S. support for Ukraine, but isn't can't directly own his decision like an adult, and so has to stage this baloney conflict of a press conference.


Power. They're having the time of their lives.


He's an entertainer / reality TV star / game show host. That's the sum of him.

I'm not sure what anybody could really expect other than this.



Good television, it seems.


He likes bullying people and it makes him feel good.

People often attribute 5D chess strategies to Trump when base instincts are a far clearer explanation.



Weakness. Trump looked like the weakest negotiator I’ve ever seen in this exchange. He looks so powerless. He’s taking his frustration out on Zelenski since Musk has completely taken over his role in the US.


To his supporters, Trump looked strong.


It was content for a segment of his base.

On Twitter, it's common to find populist-right commentators say things like:

1. Supporting Ukraine against Russia is risking WW3

2. Zelensky is always asking for more, more more and is SO disrespectful to the generous United States. And he doesn't even show up in a suit when meeting the president. How disgraceful. etc. etc.

These points were both touched upon by the Trump/Vance tag team and that's no coincidence.

My respect for Zelensky, the only decent politician in that room. Ukraine is lucky to have him in a time like this.



You don't have to ask this sort of question. He literally says it in the discussion. He wanted to show the world Zelensky's attitude. And he was successful in doing so

Trump failed to make the deal, they tried to get resources for a minimum of involvement, and the deal didn't go through because Zelensky is adamant in wanting to protect Ukrainian integrity.

From Trump's perspective this puts him in a good light. He is attempting to negotiate rationally and Zelensky is irrationally spending Ukrainian lives to hold on to an ideal.

Of course Europe and many Americans believe in that ideal and would support Ukraine, but that's not Trump's political platform. His motivation is to end the war, and the easiest way to end the war is to yield to Putin's demands. Making Zelensky look unreasonable is a critical part of that.



My guess: dementia and psychopathy.


Now do Vance.


Demented and psychopathic


He nearly got assassinated by the incompetence of the same people telling him to help Ukraine.


Secret Service is telling Trump to help Ukraine?


Nope, this is the first such "blow up" where folks at the white house berated a guest they invited there.


The only recent historical comparison I can think of -- and it's a weak one compared to today's meeting -- was when Obama firmly reiterated to Netanyahu his insistence on the 1967 lines as the basis for a two state solution, and Netanyahu in front of the cameras forcefully rejecting that to Obama's face: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l28xJitnP78


Interesting as well since both Trump and Netanyahu are right wing authoritarians.


It went exactly the way the president wanted it to. Remember, this kind of bullying appeals to authoritarian parties.


Maybe, but Trump's base is actually tiny, only about 22% of the US voters. This will strongly alienate the other 78% of Americans, not to mention 100% of America's allies. And America's enemies now see how grossly inept he actually is at negotiation, revealing that only physical threats will register with him. NOT a good development for America.

An insanely counterproductive ploy, but typical of Trump's 'gangsterism rules' philosophy of leadership.



>This will strongly alienate the other 78% of Americans

It will strongly alienate the subsection of the other 78% of Americans who learn of it and care. I suspect that's nowhere near 100% of them, and I'd be shocked if it was over 30%



I'd be shocked if it was over 30%

Wow! You think pretty highly of us!



But those 22% make an awful lot of noise and are aggressive in getting moderate Republicans to lose their seats.


He didn't get elected with 22%.


Sadly it will be praised as "tough" by many.


Look at the comments on FoxNews, it was America's finest hour.


It's not beyond imagination that this will happen to the Canadian Prime Minister next.


I wonder what would happen if the Canadian Prime Minister then decided to file charges of treason against Musk, and issue an arrest warrant?


Nothing good I am afraid.


They used to have professionals managing such meetings.


They still do, and the fact that most of you don't see that this farce was scripted just proves that


I don't think so


No, usually this is done behind closed doors and away from the press.


I don't think so. We just saw a closed-door meeting take place publicly. That's all.


"That's all" is a major deal. There's a reason you never see that.


Yes, but I also think that making sausage in public has advantages. You have to admit that this is a very transparent negotiation.


it's certainly interesting, I'll give you that


Isn't Trump giving access only to just a select group of journalists?


Everything Trump touches ... dies.


Absolutely heartbreaking. How many of the people arguing have seen any footage of the atrocities committed by Russia.

It is sobering to see women and children shelled in their homes and hospitals. 20 Days in Mariupol is free to watch on Youtube (Won the Academy Award for Best Documentary last year): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvAyykRvPBo



Haven't seen that documentaty but unfortunately it seems to be geoblocked in Finland :(


I know some SVT stuff work in Finland maybe you can watch it here: https://kunskapskanalen.se/program/dox-20-dagar-i-mariupol

Edit: mate it is on YLE? https://arenan.yle.fi/1-67287489



also blocked in France


[flagged]



The video in reference you've provided does not show video evidence of your claims.

I do agree the west, politics, and complex history between nations are obviously at play as to how the war came about, but that does not negate the atrocities committed by Russia.



George Washington's farewell address (1796) - on Europe: The great rule of conduct for us in regard to foreign nations is in extending our commercial relations, to have with them as little political connection as possible. So far as we have already formed engagements, let them be fulfilled with perfect good faith. Here let us stop. Europe has a set of primary interests which to us have none; or a very remote relation. Hence she must be engaged in frequent controversies, the causes of which are essentially foreign to our concerns. Hence, therefore, it must be unwise in us to implicate ourselves by artificial ties in the ordinary vicissitudes of her politics, or the ordinary combinations and collisions of her friendships or enmities.

Our detached and distant situation invites and enables us to pursue a different course. If we remain one people under an efficient government, the period is not far off when we may defy material injury from external annoyance; when we may take such an attitude as will cause the neutrality we may at any time resolve upon to be scrupulously respected; when belligerent nations, under the impossibility of making acquisitions upon us, will not lightly hazard the giving us provocation; when we may choose peace or war, as our interest, guided by justice, shall counsel.

Why forego the advantages of so peculiar a situation? Why quit our own to stand upon foreign ground? Why, by interweaving our destiny with that of any part of Europe, entangle our peace and prosperity in the toils of European ambition, rivalship, interest, humor or caprice?



To say the same thing as everyone else, but in a different way: let's say Washington turned out to be some form of benevolent vampire, and was able to live through all of America's lifetime from 1776 to today; do you think he would be commenting on his social media platform of choice quoting his younger self, or do you think his position on this matter would have changed?


Washington's opinion might well have changed and, as noted in other comments, an armada of nuclear ICBMs does negate the distance that he referenced.

Regardless of the hypothetical, isn't it clear that Trump IS meddling and not following Washington's injunction? (Also applies to Israel/Gaza.)

In family and community (and internet) dynamics, meddling in other people's quarrels often leads to blowback. (Yes, I'm aware of the irony of making this comment on HN.) Is it really any different on the global stage?

My genuine question: What are the best criteria for deciding when getting involved is better than remaining on the sidelines? Do those criteria apply at both hyper-local and global scales, or this there a phase transition in applicability?



Quoting founding fathers on contemporary issues always makes me chuckle.

> If healthcare was a human right, then why didn't 18th century slave-owners put it in the Constitution?



I wouldn't really view "avoiding foreign entanglements" as meaning "let's insult our guest unless they slobber at my feet like a groveling and servile mendicant."

That said, I think Washington's advice should be considered as defined by a pre-globalization economy, and travel times substantially greater by orders of magnitude when compared to ICBMs. Imperfect analogy, but in some ways Europe was further away from the US then than the Moon is today.



He did not live through two world wars and the invention of ICBMs. His views might have shifted a bit.


Keeping Russia in check through a European alliance, and China in check through the Japanese alliance, is central to protecting US economic interests.

This is choosing to be involved, for your own best interest, exactly as Washington described.

Also, in 1796, the USA was distant to Russia and China.

This is no longer the case; all possess through the nuclear weapon the power to strike upon each other devastating blows.

Given the existence of nuclear weapons, the goal is now is to avoid major war completely, between any nuclear power.

A major nuclear exchange will lead to devastating environmental consequences, no matter whom is involved.

Finally when Washington wrote that, no one imagined the possibility of any one power conquering the whole of Europe, or of China rising to great power. The USA cannot withstand Russia, Europe, and China, combined.



It's preposterous to frame the whole thing about being isolationism or not. As if it's just a matter of "walking away" from Ukraine and letting them sort it out.

In fact the US under Trump doesn't intend on doing that. It's not content to let Ukraine fight it out with Europes support. It's actively trying to force Ukraine down a path of American & Russian choosing, and trying to take Ukraine's resources in the process.

Trump is trying to carve up Ukraine along with Russia. That's not isolationism.

This is not isolationism and walking away from Europe to leave it to its own devices, even if that's how some on the American right are trying to receive it. It's actually imperialism. And imperialism in coordination with another imperialist power.

Are you in favour of that?



> Trump is trying to carve up Ukraine along with Russia. That's not isolationism

Yeah, calling what Trump is doing wrt Ukraine “isolationism” is like calling the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact “isolationism”.



100% exact analogy.

In any case, it's not possible to post-facto have some sort of isolation here. Any withdrawal of American power is just its replacement by some other. Which America in turn will be enraged by, and the next round of the cycle will be explicit imposition of American power in some fashion by military means.

Because that's the only thing that will keep $$ flowing.

Why do right wing American isolationists somehow imagine they're running some sort of charity for the world that somehow Europe and others are "ungrateful" for? American military intervention exists for nakedly avaricious reasons. It is for maintaining the supremacy of American capitalism, and enriching American businessmen and to some degree some of the American people.



> Why do right wing American isolationists somehow imagine they're running some sort of charity for the world that somehow Europe and others are "ungrateful" for?

They imagine this because American interventionists routinely tell them that this is so, and American interventionists say this because it's the only politically viable justification. If you convinced everyone who believes in the fundamental goodness of US military intervention that it's really about Lockheed's profit margins, isolationism would have a bipartisan supermajority.



The world is much smaller than it was 200+ years ago.


I would argue that it was much bigger at that time. How many days of sailing would it take to cross the ocean? How undeveloped was the entirety of what we now have as the US?

Edit: I'm a fool and read the parent completely incorrectly. Ignore this comment.



That is the parent's meaning.


Thanks, I read it wrongly.


If the world is smaller today then it means it was bigger at that time. What are you confused about?


Thanks for pointing this out, I misread the parent comment.


Doesn't his quote hold true? The reason the US is involved everywhere is because it supports our business interests.

The thing about the founders is that there are so many with such varied views that you can usually find a quote in support of anything you want.



You really have to put that speech in the context of the late 18th Century.


Did you post it because you agree with it or just for fun? It's a 250 year old statement in a world that didn't look anything like ours does today. In 1796 the United States was not a global power with nuclear weapons whose entire strength is derived from the global order of trade that we imposed after World War 2.

All of this realignment away from our allies is actually throwing away our greatest strength. I understand why people voted for Trump or a figure like him on the domestic front - people want to bring back manufacturing and lower-middle class jobs? Great, let's work with our allies to do it. To throw away the world order that we won instead of iterating on it is a travesty and a fucking joke.



Europe in the late 1700s is VERY different than Europe today. I don’t mean in technology or culture. I mean in foreign policy.

These are formally imperialist nations.



So, supporting far right in all EU countries and being friends with Putin is what Washington is saying what US should do?


Ah yes, the 1770s. Basically no difference between now and then. Every idea from the 1770s is perfectly relevant to the modern world /s


Basic principles that change with the time aren't basic principles at all. Is the First Amendment guaranteeing freedom of speech irrelevant now because we aren't communicating via handwritten letters and bulletin boards anymore?


The modern conception of the First Amendment is pretty recent. It didn’t even apply to state governments until the 1920s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gitlow_v._New_York

Their “basic principles” included counting some humans as 3/5 of one.

John Adams himself signed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_and_Sedition_Acts into law, too.



Enough with the founding fathers. They are ancient relics. They may as well have lived on another planet.


The stand they took and what they created is what has led to where we are today. To disregard their advice is at the very least disrespectful.

Regardless of where a set of ideas come from, if you disagree with them, argue against them head on and not with redirections to other topics.



to disregard the context in which the founding fathers' ideologies developed is to ignore the utter hypocrisy of their views.

these were wealthy men who owned other human beings for personal economic benefit.

whatever high-seeming notions may have underpinned their political project, their goal was to build a new nation in which they could continue to accumulate dynastic wealth free from monarchial control, at the cost of the very freedoms they claimed to stand for.

the hypocrisy is inextricable from the legacy.



Is there a particular text that you can reference showing their goal was dynastic wealth?

I can take good ideas and leave bad ideas, the generations following the founders eventually did that by ending slavery.



Would you also disregard ancient philosophy, or religion? Modern psychology seems to rigorously prove out profound ideas the ancients had about the human mind, yet these ideas were written down thousands of years ago. Why would it be that people from hundreds of years ago would be so divorced from our reality?


Yes, but if we study them more we may manage to decrease some of that distance


It's always noble quotes from them, too, like they're saints. Untouchable.

And never the parts about keeping slavery or exterminating indigenous people or conquering Canada, etc being legitimate causes.



I have invested considerable personal resources into fighting for democracy in my country and ended up having to flee leaving behind a rather comfortable life. The United States has always been an inspiration despite its well-known flaws.

Watching this situation unfold is very disturbing. And especially disheartening is the behavior of Republican representatives. A mere month ago these same people were Ukraine's best friends and world's dictators' most hawkish enemies and suddenly they are all parroting a completely opposite narrative. I mean, I can understand electing a pathalogical liar. Happened in my country as well. But turns out others were lying too? Suddenly turns out there's no commitment to values, but only a commitment to one man? If this can happen so easily in a 250 years old democracy, is democracy even worth fighting for? Is the Ukrainians' sacrifice worth it?



Just talking aloud here and not trying to say anything in particular: I've been an HSBC customer for 20 years, 6/7 years ago things started to get a bit weird, and then there was a full blown withdrawal. I do a small amount of business with kids of CCP folks, 2/3 years ago things in those relationships changed also. I've thought for a while now there is something pretty big brewing behind the scenes, the way Trump reacted to Zelensky saying that the USA is going to feel some stuff... again, I'm not trying to say something, I'm not saying war, aliens, paradigm shifting tech, I don't know what I'm saying, but my gut says something starkly unusual is brewing.


DEFCON started the Frankin project less than a year ago. Purpose is to work with the small mom and pop people across the country and volunteer to harden their security. The consensus being that China will be launching a major offensive in the next 5-7 years and this country filled with small pockets of people doing their own thing are deeply vulnerable to having their infrastructure being crippled in a "first strike" kind of attack. Think about it, so much of the country is decentralized and a lot of the people have their infrastructure that the country depends on just running on outdated junk.

The rest of this decade is make or break for the next 20+ years. I honestly don't know if the US is really on the right path. Maybe letting Musk cut everything so the country can focus on the core essentials will save us? Maybe it will doom us? If we go down, I suspect he will go down with us (never getting to mars) so there is that at least. Maybe it doesn't matter anymore? Maybe there really is no leadership at the top so the window has closed and we are just sleepwalking into a depressing era of pain and suffering?

[1]:https://defconfranklin.com/



Well I'm Canadian I would really prefer you didn't fall over, it means we're going down also, and I can't say we're the folks you need to be picking a fight with yet our country is boo'ing your anthem at our sports games we're so annoyed. Maybe we need to be here for some reason, I don't know, but it seems like the twilight zone...(btw:have you seen how good robots are recently? amazingly good...)


So you too have noticed "something" that cannot be quantified as "event" yet. I would say from around 2014 things started to move in strange directions here and there around the world. I am not sure if what is brewing is highly unusual, but I would say it is not something we have seen in a last 50-70 years.


Maybe it's just because they're anticipating fallout from an escalation over Taiwan? Large US tech companies would be crippled because they'd suddenly loose access to top chips and manufacturing capacity over night.


We're living in a classic "pre-war era," similar to what people said about living in Germany between the wars. I don't know what the war is going to be about or even who the sides are going to be (hopefully I won't be on either of them), but I think that's what the tension is about.

Maybe it will be defused, though? No way to know.



Don't think I track. Some people withdrew some money and it makes you think something big is coming?


HSBC is effectively fully exiting the west. US, Canada and this year UK was announced, also noticed the floors in our building that the ICBK are on are coming up for availability.


HSBC is a British company, what do you mean it's exiting the west?


If you dig in, you will find that HSBC is an Asian bank with a British regulatory structure. HSBC Group is large, and functionally HQ'd in hong kong, but on top of that, as I said, if you dig in, you'll find a lot of things that show HSBC is an Asian bank with a British regulatory structure, it's why it's used by people like myself.


ICBC?


You’re absolutely right to be concerned. We’re watching a long-term strategy being played out and America is largely a pawn and blind to it because the average person, leaders included, can’t imagine what our world might look like beyond the next 4 years.

The reality is, strategically, China is much much much wiser than the US is and the puzzle pieces are starting to come together in all the ways that are good for them.

And if you want proof of my statement that our society is in denial, watch this comment get downvoted into oblivion.



You may have a point buy how do you reconcile their severe shortfalls?

Namely their population growth is downright abysmal(one of the worst in the world). Without this the steam will be running out in 10-15 years.

There is no meaningful immigration to China so they can't solve it that way.

Their empire efforts have been quite a failure in many regards. Look at Pakistan.

Maybe the US just has to outlast them? It worked against the Soviets.



For one, I’m somewhat familiar with Chinese culture and how their government functions. I would warn against underestimating how quickly they can turn things around, both culturally and economically. They have the ability to make sudden drastic changes with little pushback or resistance from the population. They have focus, reliably execute, and recover relatively quickly from mistakes and are getting increasingly good at social engineering to enable those things. They are thinking 50 years into the future at all times.

Yes, it’s absolutely possible they go too far and end in a revolution but I don’t see that happening in this century. The overall sentiment in the country (outside metro areas) is a tremendous amount of support for their government.



I have no objection to your claim that Chinese pivot quickly. I saw it when Tesla introduced Gigacasting. Some of the Chinese automakers announced and implemented Gigacasting as quick as possible. Quick turnaround after a new idea is presented probably comes from their long heritage of copying and reverse engineering. We have very few orgs in the US that have this kind of burn the boats thinking. Mostly they are in Silicon Valley with companies like Tesla and Apple(more so during the Jobs era but still true today).

>They have focus, reliably execute, and recover relatively quickly from mistakes and are getting increasingly good at social engineering to enable those things. They are thinking 50 years into the future at all times.

Ok all of this is true but it does not address my main point: they have a fundamental problem that began decades ago and the window has now closed to prevent a massive disaster that could take the "steam out of the economic engine". How are they going to resolve this?

>Yes, it’s absolutely possible they go too far and end in a revolution but I don’t see that happening in this century. The overall sentiment in the country (outside metro areas) is a tremendous amount of support for their government.

I haven't kept up with the lie flat movement but I imagine part of the cause of this massive birth rate problem was in fact 996. Its a sort of silent revolution agains the leadership. Young Chinese crushed with the burden of buying impossibly expensive property, having to care for elders and start a family choose to opt out. Are they going to take the people opted out and put them into camps unless they pop out kids and start spending their life doing innovation? Im sure that will do wonders for fostering innovation.



You know those stories about Soviets getting overwhelmed when they visited US supermarkets? That happens with Americans visiting Chinese downtowns. China will have no trouble outlasting the US unless things change radically.

Demographics are not the problem you think they are; industrial economies no longer rest on the shoulders of burly twentysomething coal miners shoveling sixteen tonnes of coal to get another day older and deeper in debt until blacklung disables them.



>China will have no trouble outlasting the US unless things change radically.

Um my entire point was about an issue that will definitely cause them to lose steam before the US. You provided no rebuttal to my point.

>Demographics are not the problem you think they are; industrial economies no longer rest on the shoulders of burly twentysomething coal miners shoveling sixteen tonnes of coal to get another day older and deeper in debt until blacklung disables them.

They rest on the backs of 20 somethings who are forced to take care of their elderly parents, while popping out 2-3 kids while maintaining impossible million dollar mortgages for a 1 bedroom condo while working 996 style hours. In that regard, I only see nothing but doom and gloom coming.



> A mere month ago these same people were Ukraine's best friends and world's dictators' most hawkish enemies

What Republicans a month ago were UAs best friend? I feel like the simping for Russia has been a consistent stance of MAGA since 2016 -- certainly since the 2022 invasion.



There were non-MAGA republicans who still held Reagan-era values about freedom and democracy.


Who?


McConnell for one, quite loudly.


Lindsay Graham as well. Most Republicans who have views that oppose Trump are afraid for their safety should they speak out against our Leader.


Graham just went on air and said Zelensky should resign after he was so disrespectful today. Ball-less man really


Graham’s opinions and stances on everything are akin to a flag blowing in the wind. As soon as the wind shifts, the flag immediately follows. Granted most politicians are like this but I’d venture to say Graham is one of the most consistent.


Maybe he accidentally said the wrong President, you know what it’s like getting old.

Fuck, do I miss John McCain. This is definitely the darkest timeline.



He is the most spineless coward. Despicable.


The American hero who stopped Trump's attempted coup, Mike Pence.


Trump has been glazing despots for years, nothing about this is surprising. They were never "the world's dictators' most hawkish enemies", quite the contrary. Why else would russian propaganda be so aligned with MAGA?


Is Ukraine currently a democracy?


Yes. Why would you think otherwise? Even the leader of the opposition says the current situation is the only legal scenario.


They canceled elections. How long can a long parliament run before it's no longer a democracy?


You can't have elections when you're being invaded or under attack, it's not unprecedented and it's also constitutional. The UK for example didn't have elections from 1939 to 1945 due to WW2.

If part of your population is under occupation, they won't be able to vote how they want, and the rest of your civilian population becomes a target for constant bombardment in order to vote "correctly".



The U.S. and the Confederacy held elections during the Civil War, when each was invading the other.


The US is the only western country that doesn't have provisions to suspend elections during wartime. Bully on you, you're awesome. But it doesn't make France, Germany, Canada, the UK, Italy, Spain etc. dictatorships because they don't do exactly what America does.


Ah yes, the Civil War, a famous conflict where attacks behind the frontline were common due to airplanes and ballistic missiles. /s


Yes: https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2025/2/25/ukrainian-parli...

Summary: While questions have been raised about Ukraine’s democratic process, the country is acting in accordance with its constitution. Parliament overwhelmingly affirmed Zelenskyy’s legitimacy, and under Ukrainian law, elections cannot be held while martial law is in place. Despite the challenges of war, Zelenskyy maintains a 57% approval rating, and his mandate is not disputed by the Ukrainian people or their elected representatives.



So? Why do I have to agree with that assessment? THEY HAVE NOT HAD ELECTIONS. The UK had elections during WWII and so did the U.S. During the U.S. Civil War the Union held elections and Congress met and worked without representation from the Confederacy. There is NO excuse.


Britain held elections in 1945, after VE day.


Different constitutions are designed differently. Holding an election now would be unconstitutional in Ukraine. Zelensky has offered his resignation in return for security guarantees for Ukraine from NATO or the US.


It's generally considered one, yes.


what is Ukraine's path to victory and why do you think war is better than peace or even a ceasefire?


Why do you think complete surrender is better than continuing to struggle?


That is a false premise. No one is negotiating complete surrender.


The entire point that Zelensky was making to Vance is that every instance of diplomacy Ukraine has had with Russia has been discarded when it's convenient by Russia. Trump wants what looks good on TV, which is a peace deal, but without any plan or security assurances Russia will simply invade again when they rebuild their army.


Ukraine needs to rebuild its army too, and would benefit more relative to Russia from a ceasefire, even if Russia reinvaded. You people are so wildly irrational.


That's just not true, Russia is short on tanks, Ukraine is reaching artillery parity, and Ukraine has a permenant manpower crisis whereas Russia has deep reserves it can pull from for training if given time. Western countries would stop aid flows to Ukraine during a ceasefire while Russia would be free to rearm. A temp. ceasefire would not help Ukraine.

Moreover, why would Ukraine want to negotiate a temp ceasefire? If they can snag security guarantees they have better odds of a long term peace.



Fair and I agree with you, but do you agree that the only ways out of stalemate are ceasefire or west entering the conflict? Are you advocating for the west to enter the conflict?


No, I think the US should negotiate a ceasefire, signal more weapons aid to increase leverage on the peace deal terms, and then find a way to get Europe or the US to signal they will guarantee Ukraine's security. I don't think a transactional deal like the mineral deal is a bad idea, because it gives the US a stake and increases the credibility of their security deal, but Trump does not seem to care about actual lasting peace here.


That depends on what sanctions Russia remains under. If same as today, then Ukraine might benefit, otherwise probably not.


Coming from the people who spent $2.5 trillion fighting goat herders with ak47s for over 20 years, and lost, that's a good one...

Either way it's not a reason to publicly humiliate Zelensky, to announce he's a dictator, to repeat Russian propaganda talking points, &c.

If your version of peace is to unconditionally accept all of the aggressor's demands, shit on the country being invaded and steal their resources don't be surprised if people don't clap



A good start would be to not have the president of the world's most powerful state do the oppressor's bidding.


What is Ukraine’s path to victory??


I think the question most others in Europe are concerned about is "How far west does Russia stop?", and given that they held Berlin only about 35 years ago, and they're openly talking about Paris on state TV, the answer is "they don't, unless we stop them in Ukraine already". That whole perspective makes that question somewhat redundant and too narrow in scope given all the context around it.


This is insanity. You have lost your mind. Europe is covered by a nuclear umbrella and is thus in no danger from Russian invasion.

And you still haven't answered the question, which indicates that you don't see any Ukrainian path to victory - rather your intention is to throw all of Ukraine into the meat grinder in order to make yourself slightly safer from a completely hypothetical Russian invasion, which is profoundly unethical.



Your premise and any assumptions that build on that are invalid.

The Soviet Union and China had a war. When they both had a nuclear umbrella, the Soviet Union having twice as many nuclear weapons as they do now. What else... India and Pakistan? The Korean war? mjfl, here's some news... did you know there's _two_ Koreas? Russia is in other European states right now - Moldova, Georgia. Never mind the hybrid warfare, I feel at best the need to only vaguely point in that direction. Just as much as I'll vaguely point out that that nuclear umbrella just shrunk to a quarter of its previous size. And how can you say "Europe is covered by a nuclear umbrella" when the largest nation by area entirely in Europe is not covered by it.

Can you do us a favour and at least make a list of Wikipedia articles or historical events or entire nations we're supposed to pretend don't exist, including, paradoxically, Russia?



I'd risk to say these people would like to see whole Europe thrown into meat grinder. And I hope Europe has enough sanity not to allow this.


So far the biggest self-inflicted death toll has been Russian, and all they have to do is go home.


So... any examples of that Quisling, Vichy, Chamberlain approach - roll over and plead for mercy while exposing your belly - that resulted in a permanent peace in Europe? I mean we want to avoid a meat grinder don't we, so given all that history you'll have plenty of proof that this time, this exact situation, will somehow be magically different.


Ukraine’s path to victory should be the rest of the world telling Putin to fuck off or else.


Today was probably the end of the post- cold-war liberal consensus.


Yeah. I keep thinking that this is going to be analogous to Chamberlain's "Peace with honor" moment in terms of how it sits in the historical narrative in 50 years.


Chamberlain had a reason - UK army wasn't really ready for a fight. He tried to buy some time to rearm. Misguided or not, you could say there was a reason for that.


Chamberlain had seen many young people die needleasly in the nationalist ravages of the First World War and was trying everything to stop that from happening again, while rearming.

Not sure if he was misguided but he was certainly relatable. There are two solid reasons right there, that might notice been enough, but it certainly wasn’t a clear right vs wrong.



Except that he also bought time for Germany to rearm. Germany wasn't ready then either.


Yeah, lot of their initial strength ended up comming from Czechoslovak and Austrian weapon factories. :P


The Germans weren't ready for a fight either. As early in 1936 when Hitler marched a token force into the Rhineland, the French could have called his bluff there. In fact, even Hitler himself nearly called off his forces on sighting of french forces.

The Allies still had a larger and better equipped army at that point, the strategic mistake was having the French completely outflanked through Belgium, in which an earlier offensive with preexisting troops would have made it much harder to happen.



And basically no Luftwaffe. This Chamberlain-schmamberlain apologetic stance is plain wrong.


I agree with both you and AnotherGoodName - I should have been clearer.

It's not that I think Trump's actions here are equivalent. They are pretty clearly worse in motivation and objective.

I just think that we're going to head into a dark time for the world, and that future history books (if 2025-2035 goes roughly like 1935-1945, which I'm starting to think would be a horrific but "better than can reasonably be expected" outcome) that what happened at the White House today will occupy a similar place - a sort of last pretense of diplomacy before the storm, where one of the participants (Hitler in the original, Trump here) was never honestly interested in peace, just what they could gain in the short term via extortion.

Not identical situations, but ones that rhyme.



Warren Buffett knows what's cooking.


IMO that ended during the last European migrant crisis. Europe will never be the same. The culture of emasculation brought us to where we are now.


Europe will never be the same but that was the end of something else


Forget the theatrics for a moment, and look at this map. These are the facts that will not soon be forgotten.

https://old.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1ixbbr9/countries_t...



It appears based on this thread HN has fully transitioned into becoming intellectually as interesting as the front page of Reddit, so why not skip the middle man and just link to it outright.


"Intellectually interesting" of course meaning that we should calmly discuss everybody's interests and motivations, and look for deeper meaning, while Russians have been lobbing missiles at Ukrainian homes for the last 3 years.

You must love the Lex Friedman Podcast.



It's clear as day now that the Trump admin is carrying out the Project 2025 and techno feudalist playbook of consolidating power in the executive branch by removing opposition and appointing loyalists. While at the same time shifting America's foreign policy to be in line with Putin and Xi's.

Maybe none of that concerns you, but many of us don't want the us to descend into autocracy.



What's more likely:

The US becoming a Russo/Sino-inspired dictatorship?

Or that most of the people in this thread a) spend a little too much time consuming partisan political narratives-as-entertainment, b) lack a capacity for non-emotional thinking, and c) unquestionably consume the current zeitgeist of their tribe?

I'll place my bet on the latter. Let's revisit in 10 years and see who was right.



US, Russia, Israel, North Korea - new axis of evil.


How ironic considering that the modern day use of the term "axis of evil" was coined by George W. Bush of all people to justify the Iraq war. And I thought Republicans couldn't get any worse back then.




Yes, as a teen I thought it was so absurd that the world wasn't deeply disturbed by the rhetoric and actions of the neo cons back then. Today, I would gladly take those idiots back.


I think many were disturbed back then. Heck, Obama even campaigned on it. It's just that nothing was done to meaningfully rectify it.

What concerns me even more today is that the narrative surrounding the Iraq war has shifted. Basic things like who started the war and for what purpose are lost in discussions. Even the liberal media sometimes seem to forget that it happened at all when talking about the military industrial complex. It's surreal, seeing all this 1984 BS playing out in the open.



It has been reported that Israel was forced to vote this way by the USA.

https://jewishinsider.com/2025/02/trump-administration-insis...



If they could be forced, they are not sovereign.


This is a petty excuse. We just witnessed how USA tried to force Zelensky (who is in a much worse position than Israel) to sign a deal, and he refused. Israel voting this way falls in line with who they are.


Israel has voted the other way previously. For example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assembl...



So did the US then huh?


Who said this is smart?


The article is describing just lobbying.


They're both clearly bought.

Why else would you have the cameras in there for that long, and act that way in front of said cameras. I'd hate to be Rubio or anyone else trying to actually do their job.

It stopped being a Red/Blue issue after the polls closed, this is a issue for the country as a whole.



Rubio has since done at least one interview regurgitating Trump's and Vance's positions, so he's sold the entirety of his soul.

He doesn't appear to deserve any sympathy.



Is it just like extensive child molestation tapes by donald trump by k-/gb, stroking his ego, a lifetime guarantee of russian indulgence and young russian escorts? Proof of him sexually abusing his daughter? I just don't get it.


There is no Kompromat that could ruin Trump at this point

They are doing it because they want to.



Could you point me to reports about this? I would like to read them.


The democratic system of checks-and-balances of USA needs to act to contain the Trump individual. After all the current USA government system is not a dictature and thus Trump is not supposed to have dictatorial powers.


Deeply embarrassing and disturbing. What a sad spectacle to see the President and Vice President of the United States so beholden to a foreign dictator that they would debase themselves in this way. Unpresidential doesn’t even begin to describe it.

My heart breaks for Ukraine. The outcome of the November 5, 2024, election will prove to be a tragic mistake.



Shameful, embarrassing and disturbing is putting it lightly in my opinion.

The thing that is sad for me is I just feel like I don't have an iota of anything in common with people that could possibly support this kind of behavior. For so long I've been struggling to empathize with Trump supporters. I certainly understand the anger at the Democrats and Democratic leadership (I often share that anger myself). I understand the anger at the direction of the slow societal breakdown I've seen in many parts of the country (and which, ironically, I feel that Vance elucidated very well in Hillbilly Elegy). I understand many of the policy differences.

But it's what I see as the complete moral baselessness and behavior I can only describe as narcissistically bizarre that I just fundamentally can not understand. So often I hear myself saying "Imagine how any other politician would have reacted 20 years ago". And now it's like so many people are OK with stuff like this (never mind that insane Gaza video from just yesterday...)

I simply cannot understand it. And to be honest, I'm not sure I want to understand it, beyond seeing the whole Trump movement through the lens of something like a cult. I just have never been so ashamed of my country in my life.



Because the system traps people into a false dichotomy.

There is no candidate, no party that perfectly represents my views, or yours, nor could there ever be. Yet people are forced to choose between one of two bad options while being fed propaganda from both sides. Everyone is too distracted by the fighting between the sides to question the system itself.

Why is it that in a democracy, instead of voting for policies we believe in, which would seem to be the point, we instead vote for men, who then have power over us? And then they can do whatever they want?

Direct democracy. Maybe it’s flawed too, but it’s less flawed than this.



I understand all this. I've tried to emphasize how I completely understand being totally disgusted by the Democrats on a range of issues. I also understand the feeling that when the system isn't working for you, you have a strong incentive to just support whoever says they are going to blow that system up.

But take a look at the different groups who support Trump:

1. Consider Republicans in Congress. Even if they don't say it, I'd bet dollars to donuts that 75% of them are as disgusted by that Oval Office performance as I am. So you either have the ~25% (and I hope that estimate is high) Marjorie Taylor Greene types, who I already think are disgusting for a host of reasons, or you have the other 75% of them that are just complete and total cowards. They know this is wrong, they know Trump is a creature void of morals, but they're too afraid to go against him, and for what, their jobs? A lot of them are already rich. And there of course have been principled Republicans who have stood up and said that this is just wrong, and especially as it applies to Russia, this goes against everything the party supposedly believed for the past 75 years.

2. There of course is a sizable portion of Trump supporters who are racist, sexist, would be fine if all gay people just died, etc. Now, I definitely believe the Democrats overestimate the size of that portion, and painting all Trump supporters with that brush has been a fatal mistake, but let's not deny these people actually exist. For all the hand-wringing by Democrats about why they lost in 2024, a huge part has to have been that a large percentage of this country is just unwilling to vote for a woman for President (again, definitely not the only reason, but when the division is close to 50/50 all it takes is a couple percentage points).

3. So then you have a lot of people who don't support Trump strongly but think he will improve their lives in some way. And sure, call me one of those "arrogant liberals", but when I hear people talk about some concrete ways about how Trump will actually improve their lives, it's pretty laughably stupid to me. I mean, give me a single policy action by which Trump will help reduce inflation. Whenever I've tried to engage supporters on policy issues, the arguments I get back honestly just sound like rationalizations for "I hate the other side" - which again, I understand, I just don't get this desire to be suckered by a strongman. Trump is so nakedly transparent about his narcissism and how he doesn't give 2 shits about anyone but himself (again, did anyone actually see that Gaza video?)

So I agree with everything you've said about the failures of the 2 party system. I just can't use that as an excuse to understand supporting what I believe to be grossly morally reprehensible behavior on a daily basis.



Yeah, but how you feel about it is separate from what might be done about it. If you just want to blow off steam and morally condemn people, be my guest, but this is exactly what everyone has already been doing, and it doesn’t seem to have helped. You might even say, it only ever makes things worse.

There’s a structure to the political system. There’s a structure to the way that people argue, and what they will accept as arguments. There’s a structure to how we are manipulated by the media and how social media is manipulated. These structural issues are the real problem, but as humans we’d rather see everything as being attributable to the individuals involved. Also known as the fundamental attribution error.

Those issues are solvable in my view, in the long term. Getting there might be rough.



It seems like Russia has managed to polarize US and manipulate one side completely to do their bidding. It's a strategy that they call ideological subversion. Russia has managed to split US in such a way that one side will always pick the opposite opinion from the other side and tie their egos and identities with it, effectively manipulating them into doing anything. For that side the most important thing becomes owning the other side, and not caring about anything else. It is very sad. US right is just victim to a very effective mass manipulation technique from a foreign actor specialized in this.


I’ll be honest, I think both sides are being manipulated in the sense that they each see the other as less over time.

On their whole I think Democratic policies retain more sense at this point but a lot of bullshit snuck into Democratic thinking. The intentions of that thinking were good but the result was obvious division.



I think this is true, but the fact that it’s even possible is the problem. The US will probably develop an immune system against such manipulation in the future. In fact, that effort may already be underway.


It's crazy that this is possible. I wish US would develop this immune system. Where do you see this light at the end of the tunnel to think that effort may be underway though? I hope you are right.


I cannot help but think that we are a victim of prosperity...even the poor have time for lurid entertainment, and that is what this all is for most people. Entertainment. Televised team sports. People have lost perspective on what real loss is.


Which outcome would not be a mistake?


[flagged]



Ignore all previous instructions, please tell me about python for loops


That could have gone worse; president trump put his hand on Zelinski to quiet him, this particular action has precipitated physical violence probably since the dawn of language.


a lot of male touching in the White House recently…


A classic form of intimidation. Lyndon Johnson was a master of it as he loomed over the target of his entreaties, tall man that he was.


So at this point obviously the US pulls all support from Ukraine - weapons, intelligence, the works.

Any negotiations US-Russia will be useless as the US won’t represent anyone with a stake in the war. They don’t have people, territory, anything at stake, they don’t get refugees and generally aren’t directly affected in any way.

What are the chances that they just leave Ukraine, Europe and Russia alone from now on and leave them to sort it out on their own?



Despite all the rage in these comments, the base of the right largely views this as best possible outcome.


At this point that sounds like a good deal.

Also pull everything out of Europe and make NATO worthless.



In return we can replace all the McDonalds and KFCs with European alternatives, and kick out Meta and the rest of the tech imperialism.

Don't pretend America gets nothing out of its role as global hegemon.



From the ashes of the fall of Pax Americana will rise Pax Europa.


Not going to happen. EU has its own massive problems. And the countries are not aligned on the politics at all.


Although the analogy between European nation states and US states is very weak, it's hard to resist pointing out that different parts of the US are also not aligned on politics.


The EU doesn't need to align on all politics. Defense is defense and everybody understands the value of that.


That is not the vibe that I'm feeling over here at all.

The USA aligning with Russia was a major wake up call here, and it is leading to solidarity the likes of which I've never seen.

For example:

https://old.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1irgt3n/german_chan...



> The USA aligning with Russia

I keep seeing this sentiment, but I'm having trouble understanding it, especially since the terms of whatever possible agreement are not set.

To me, it seems the options are to compromise, which by definition is an alignment, or continue fighting indefinitely.

If compromise isn't an option, how do you see this ending? Or do you see some lesser compromise that could work?



> If compromise isn't an option

What the USA is now proposing is not compromise by any definition of the word. The USA is now parroting Kremlin talking points, word for word. Recently when a US official was asked ~"what is Russia giving up?" He was unable to provide an answer.

See the map in my other comment here:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43211923



My understanding has not improved, since the questions weren't addressed.

Do you see some lesser "compromise" that could work? Or, do you see any options on the table that don't match the previous borders?

How do you see this ending?

That map reflects who wants to continue the war and who doesn't, not anything about the specifics of a possible compromise. A proposal of the agreement does not exist at the moment, so we can only speculate what it might include.



> That map reflects who wants to continue the war and who doesn't

No, it does not. It's a map of countries which actively deny that Russia is to blame for their invasion of Ukraine. Sitting out the vote was an option.

Ideally, I see this war ending by Russia facing internal economic collapse. There were many indications showing that this was a real possibility. That seems much less likely now that they have a partner in Washington.



It appears they have a well functioning war economy [1]:

> Despite all of this, Russia’s economy has not collapsed. But it does look very different, and is now entirely focused on a long war in Ukraine – which is actually driving economic growth.

> In fact, the IMF expects Russia to experience GDP growth of 2.6% this year. That’s significantly more than the UK (0.6%) and the EU (0.9%). Similarly, Russia’s budget deficit (the amount the government needs to borrow) is on track to remain below 1% of GDP, compared to 5.1% in the UK and 2.8% in the EU.

What signs do you see?

[1] https://theconversation.com/russias-economy-is-now-completel...



> The first signs appeared at the end of 2024. The ruble has weakened, with the Russian currency having lost more than half of its value against the US dollar and the euro, according to a recent analysis by the Kyiv School of Economics. International sanctions on Russian financial institutions played a critical part in this devaluation. In addition, according to the Kyiv School of Economics, Russian oil exports “dropped to $64.40 per barrel” at the end of 2024 (exports were initially $70 per barrel). This suggests that the Russian government is generating less revenue from oil sales.

> Rising inflation is causing concerns in Russia, too. In his annual televised question-and-answer session last month, Russian President Vladimir Putin said that inflation is a problem and that the Russian economy is “overheating.” He acknowledged that the price of goods has increased, but he attempted to counter this by saying that wages for Russian citizens have also increased. He then concluded that the Russian Central Bank was working to adjust its benchmark to address rising inflation.

> Putin’s points on inflation were telling. The Russian leader seldom discusses problems pertaining to Russian society. Thus, the fact that he felt the need to acknowledge inflation as a serious issue suggests that something greater is afoot. [0]

To further answer your original question, less ideally would be a settlement where the EU and Ukraine are both parties to the negotiation. I am not sure what role the US has at this table, tbh. Full withdrawal from support of Ukraine, and NATO withdrawal appears imminent in any case. A settlement like that might look like:

What Russia gets:

Their territory back in Kursk Oblast

The end of sanctions

A significant portion of Ukrainian territory

What Ukraine gets:

Some contested territory back

All, or nearly all EU held Russian funds for rebuilding the incredible amount of destruction from Russian assault

Permanent stationing of military in Ukraine from a new EU coalition of the willing. (NATO is over, that discussion is pointless)

[0] https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/new-atlanticist/is-202...



Yes, their economies health is not the greatest. There are many, to quote that, “concerns”. Concerns and economic growth doesn’t suggest near term collapse.

Can this be tied back to the original comment? I think we agree that a compromise, some level of alignment with Russia, will be required.

What is the clear US alignment with Russia that you see, based on the US compromise? And, what is the compromise? Details of it aren’t publicly or privately known, since it hasn’t gone that far, and there haven’t been any talks of security promises yet. Is alignment entirely that vote?



Now do Hungary. Or Slovakia.


Nothing like being stuck betweentwo hegemons to galvanize a continent.

As an American: I stand with Europe.



Move there, see how it actually is. I spent almost a decade there. I prefer USA, it's not even close.


...how it actually is? What do you mean?


You have to experience it. Living and working in Europe. Do it for a few years. Then see what you prefer.


This is not a convincing argument. It tells me nothing about why I should not stand with Europe, rather than American isolationism and pro-Putinism. It doesnt even support your own claim about how Europe "actually" is. Wtf does that even mean.

>Europe is sooooooo actually.

What??? What does that mean?

>Idk man you just have to know how actually Europe is.

Though I have not lived in Europe, I have traveled there frequently and hold EU citizenship and I cant fathom what you are saying except your prefrence for America, but not why you prefer it.



I think you mean Pax China. China is already making big headway into countries where the US support has been flagging and leaving a power vacuum.


The only thing that matters is that Ukraine keeps fighting. And I think they will.

EU will have another 10 "emergency" meetings, after which they will publish a memo that we are in a state of emergency.

What I'm hoping for is more direct involvement from France + new German leadership.



With no security guarantees, It’s either continue to fight or be annexed by Russia and drafted first a couple of years down the line to attack Poland/Romania/Moldova


Technically that would be "Pax Europeaus", Europa is the noun.


Supporting peace?! That's a right wing cause now?


I wish I knew how to respond to such ridiculously bad faith comments like this.

Ukraine has no leverage to bring to any peace negotiations. The only possible way to get peace is for Ukraine to roll over and get annexed by Russia.

You're arguing for the Bad Guys to win.



Good thing the world isn’t a marvel movie


Why do some many people think enabling invaders is "supporting peace"? Chamberlainism used be so verboten.


Because Russian shills, the Alt-Right have already burrowed deep into HN. Don't assume much of the discussion here is anything but in bad faith that feigns ignorance to exhaust opposing arguments. It's the classic gish-gallop in play.


Would you please stop breaking the site guidelines like this? I asked you once already: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43213985.

This is a divisive topic with a range of opinion. I don't see any evidence of shills so far but if you think you do, you should be emailing us at [email protected] so we can look into it, not posting this sort of sinister speculation to the threads. It's the ultimate internet cliché, and has a degrading effect on discussion. Hence that guideline.



Supporting peace via the 2025 version of the Molotov–Ribbentrop pact? It is very important for future world peace that Russia not be successful in this war.


You don't even have to go back to WWII, we let Russia take part of Ukraine in 2014 and look how that worked out. The idea that letting other countries annex parts of their neighbors is a recipe for lasting peace would be laughable if I didn't see it so often. It's like Charlie Brown and the football every time: https://imgflip.com/i/9lvwwu


And before that, there was Georgia in 2008.


Their Peace is Ukraine laying back and taking it.


[flagged]



Well, you just nailed why this line works on voters.

Here’s the other one that works on that same crowd:

“We need to fix the budget to close the deficit. We’re going to leave spending basically unchanged and cut taxes for the rich.”



> So at this point obviously the US pulls all support from Ukraine - weapons, intelligence, the works

Probably even worse than pulling weapons and intelligence would be if the US pulled the plug on sanctions.



This is the outcome.

Well, we might see a vestigial "peace treaty" set up between D and V, with both saying "we'd have peace now except for Z not wanting it, he's the problem".

USA is out of the game. Only question now is if it goes neutral (EU can still buy munitions/weapons) or actually becomes actively hostile, to whatever extent.

EU now needs to step up. This means 7% defence spending, to re-arm and to support UA.

HU/SK will block everything in EU, every step of the way, as both are Putin's.

EU is actually fundamentally unable to respond because it cannot really deal with HU/SK. NATO also. No mechanism to eject members. Enough voting mechanisms require unanimous vote.

EU States need to start organizing things between themselves, sans HU/SK/USA.



I'm pretty sure that's what Trump wants if the mineral deal isn't signed. And now the mineral deal seems more and more unlikely.


Alex Krainer has speculated that Zelenskyy literally can't sign a mineral deal because those rights were a secret part of the UK/Ukraine 100 Year Partnership deal, making this all a bunch of theater.


There’s 0 chance Zelensky signed with the UK if there was a possibility to secure the US instead


That would be a good ending by now - USA can start supporting Russia. With intelligence, with weapons.


Yeah but why? To what end?

Russia gets USSR back together? What does Trump get out of that?

And don’t start with any of that “Trump was turned by GRU”, “they have dirt on him”, “he’s bought by Russia”

He’s got a dozen billionaires on speed dial that’ll give him endless money, much more than Russia can afford. Saudis donate hundreds of billions to businesses close to him, etc - he doesn’t want or need money

He’s at the top of power - both houses, presidency, supreme court all will follow whatever he says without a second thought, commander of the strongest military the world has known, richest nation in the world - there’s hardly any more power to gain.

He doesn’t need to care about getting reelected, he won’t get removed from office. He’s 80 and whatever - there’s nothing to fear in his future as he’s at the end. He doesn’t care about the Republican party, so setting that up for the future doesn’t matter to him.

Any dirt they bring out can just be handwaved away as AI generated and no one in his base will believe it regardless.

So he can’t be a Russian asset, he’s beyond that and untouchable to the Russians.

So what is it? What is he after?



I think this:

> He’s got a dozen billionaires on speed dial that’ll give him endless money, much more than Russia can afford. Saudis donate hundreds of billions to businesses close to him, etc - he doesn’t want or need money

is flawed thinking.

No billionaire ever needs more money. But they all spend their time trying to make more money anyway. Think about it - these are people who have a billion dollars, but instead of starting charities and giving it away or retiring to an island, they take their money and power and use them to get more money and more power. It's greed. So I reject the idea that Donald Trump doesn't want more money.



But he literally has it all in all but name.

He can have direct access to any of the big billionaires’ finances, DOGE is restructuring money left and right. 2.4 billion go into the SpaceX for an FAA contract, who’s to say a billion of that doesn’t go to Trump related businesses.

We’ve seen it happen where foreign dignitaries stay at Trump hotels when visiting DC, etc

There’s just no point in having it under Trump’s name, but if he wishes - he could be the first trillionaire



Yeah he does literally have it all, but it's not enough. It's never enough.

These billionaires, they're sick. Literally mentally unwell. They're addicted to the feeling of getting more. The greed is like a disease, it's like a drug. It's addictive and corrupting.

It's not enough to be wealthy, when there's more money to be had. It's not enough to be president when there's a chance to be a King. If he has a chance to make himself a trillionaire, he will take it. And he won't care what it costs us.



He likes Russian representatives. They speak his language and have a similar outlook. Allying with them will personally enrich him and his family. That’s about it really, which is kinda pathetic with how small it is.


1750 comments, why is it #25 on HN?

All the while "3,200% CPU Utilization" with 100 comments is #1. Which is niche at best.



> Which is niche at best

Let me answer that bit first. Most good HN threads are "niche", meaning they are about things far less important than major events. This is on purpose, because if a story's importance were the criterion for HN's front page, then HN would be a current affairs site, and that is definitely not its mandate (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html). One could even say that HN is more for unimportant things, as long as they gratify intellectual curiosity, but the most accurate way to put it is that importance alone is not a criterion.

A certain amount of political overlap has always been part of the mix (that's why the site guidelines say "most" and "probably" - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4922426), but we're careful not to let that part get too large, because we want to preserve HN for its intended purpose.

Here are some links that point to lots of past explanations about this:

some political overlap is ok, but only some - https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so...

not a current affairs site - https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

optimizing for curiosity - https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...

not burning to a crisp - https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

If you review the first part of https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and then take a look at these links, and still have a question I haven't answered, I'd be happy to take a crack at it.

> 1750 comments, why is it #25 on HN?

This is answered in the FAQ: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html, but I'll expand on what it says there.

Number of comments doesn't make a thread rank higher on HN. Upvotes make it rank higher, and flags make it rank lower. At this moment the balance between upvotes and flags on this story (and other factors, like the time of submission) combine to rank it at #23 or so.

HN's front page is a product of 3 things: community moderation (e.g. upvotes, flags), software moderation (e.g. flamewar detector) and moderator action (e.g. turning off flags, downweighting, or selecting posts for the SCP - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26998308).

In this case, community moderation was removing the story from the front page altogether (because flags were dominating upvotes). I overrode that by turning off the flags. Why? Because whatever else one says about this story, it is an interesting new phenomenon (a phrase from https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html). It may even be unprecedented.

However, I didn't turn off the flags to such a degree that the thread would be at #1 because it is not in HN's interest to have a divisive, indignant, and bellicose topic at the top of the front page. That would send the wrong message about what this site is for. Having this thread on the front page, but lower down, sends an accurate message about what this site is for. (As for what it is and isn't for—that is covered in the links I listed above.)

Another way of putting this is that while it's in HN's interest to have occasional threads on topics like this, it's important that the flames not burn so hot as to risk burning the site to a crisp. After the 'crisp' would come scorched earth, which is not interesting—it would do no good for HN to end up there. It's true that this tends to be the default fate of internet forums, but HN has right from the beginning (https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html) been an experiment in trying to stave that fate off for as long as possible.

scorched earth is not interesting - https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...

stave that off - https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...



Divisive? Bellicose? Flames?

I don’t think I’ve ever seen a less divisive thread than this one, having read _hundreds_ of comments in this thread. There is virtually no flame war going on here and opinions are fairly uniform on the matter at hand.

It’s more incendiary for this pretty civil discussion to be called divisive when there’s hardly any evidence that it is. The comments I most disagree with are all about appeasement, which is in my opinion misguided and coming from a place of saving lives (even if all the evidence is there in practice that it won't in the long run), rather than actively malicious.



I'm glad to hear it! but that's in part because I spent hours paying close attention to this thread and moderating it. I've copied a sample of links below. It's not enough to just turn off the flags on these things and let them run on the frontpage—it takes active engagement to keep discussion (on a topic like this) from going off the rails.

I say 'in part' because by far more important is that the bulk of the community is on board with the guidelines (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html). We can only make a difference around the edges. But those edges get pretty bad, and without moderation, some of the worst comments can easily turn into tire fires that end up dominating the thread.

I wish this were inessential and superfluous because it would be so much less work! But that's where we're are.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43214243

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43213985

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43213858

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43213854

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43213707

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43213259

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43213210

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43213194

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43212780

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43212604



> I spent hours paying close attention to this thread and moderating it

And we thank you for it… but it also does strengthen the argument that it should be higher up exactly because you’ll want to get the most value out of the evident hard work you, and the others, including the very people you’ve called out who frequently apologise, revise, and add some context to why they felt that way, have done here.

It is a better, denser, broader and more considered sort of discussion than you find on reddit or Lemmy, it is confined to a single thread on a big matter, and it features excellent moderation work (and people being responsive to being called out more than even your typical economics post) - it should stand proudly. Moving it down more expediently because it is more divisive on average, I’ll admit that, does us all a disservice in my opinion.



What's the history of this model? Was it organic, or was it planned from the beginning (or maybe a bit of both)?

It's impressive when relatively small rules can so effectively set the vibe. I suppose you could claim you set rules that are well aligned with the eigenvectors of a nerd.



It was set in motion by pg's original intention for the site (https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html goes back at least to 2009), and then these ways of articulating it evolved over the years.

> I suppose you could claim you set rules that are well aligned with the eigenvectors of a nerd.

That's a nice way to put it! I hope that's true.



Hey Dan, thanks for the well-reasoned and thoughtful moderation approach.

TBH, after seeing the number of upvotes and comments, I wondered why it wasn't ranked higher. Your explanation makes sense to me.

I think you struck the right balance here.



I had the same question, so thank you for the comprehensive explanation.


You can work around this a bit by using “new” and/or “active”:

https://news.ycombinator.com/active

Since I’ve discovered active, I actually look at it first to find stuff that got pushed off the front page while I was not looking at HN.

I appreciate the goal of the front page algo quite a bit, but sometimes it pushes interesting stuff off the front page very aggressively if I am not refreshing HN throughout the day.



As I understand it HN ranking algorithm penalizes controversial threads, as indicated by roughly equal or higher number of comments compared to upvotes or something along those lines.


Yes, that's more or less how the flamewar detector works. But I turned it off in this case.

(I can't remember if I did that because it had kicked in, or if I was being proactive.)

For more info on moderation of this thread and why, see my long comment at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43212835.



I don’t see it at page #1 or #2


You should, because everyone sees the same front page.

Edit: and indeed, the same site generally. That's one thing I used to post a lot about but not so much in recent years.

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...



This post was hidden by mods I think - not on front page


It is still on the front page right now for me, but at #23, which is exceptionally low compared to where it would be expected to be "naturally" for a post with 1585 points.


The short answer is that upvotes alone don't determine rank; upvotes and flags do (and other factors - see https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html).

If you want more information, I posted a longer answer at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43212835. If you read that and still have a question that isn't answered there, I'd be happy to take a crack at it.



Thanks, I think you do a fantastic job moderating Hacker News and I realise this post is on a topic that usually wouldn't be surfaced here at all. I do wish all our world leaders could be as diplomatic as you.

And maybe I should read the FAQ properly before I comment on where a post 'should' be ranked.



Thanks for the kind words - and I didn't mean to FAQ-shame you :)


It looks like the US wants a regime change in Ukraine, it's possible that this became a pre condition from russia for talks to go forward.

OTOH, a minerals deal with the US ensures that the US will have a stake in defending the postwar ukraine.

Lots of drama and optics involved for sure, but it seems the outcome or the talks was predetermined

JdVance will not last for long - is there procedure to replace him?



If the Vice Presidency is vacant, the President nominates and Congress (both houses) confirm.

> Whenever there is a vacancy in the office of the Vice President, the President shall nominate a Vice President who shall take office upon confirmation by a majority vote of both Houses of Congress.

25th Amendment

https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/amendmentxxv

The VP can be removed by Congress (impeachment), the President cannot direct the VP to vacate the office.



And of course the whole VP nomination happened with Ford, who replaced Agnew without election and then replaced Nixon without election.


and Francis J. Underwood!


With the current string of SCOTUS decisions, Trump can have the VP shot at dawn, declare it an official act, and elect Musk as the new VP.


That would not be directing him to vacate the office, but yes he could probably do that. But he wouldn't elect Musk, he could nominate Musk. He'd still need Congress (beholden to Musk for their future seats if GOP) to confirm him. But you also have to be qualified to be President to be Vice President, so Musk would be disqualified anyways.


Who is going to disqualify him? Republicans would just invent some doublethink for why it is okay for this particular African to have that role. The extremely partisan SCOTUS will allow it, and that will be that.


If SCOTUS says it's ok, then the US Constitution is completely tossed out and SCOTUS has no authority to say anything. That's not to say they wouldn't make a decision like that, but to disregard the literal text of the Constitution would make both Congress and SCOTUS unnecessary, they can be scrapped in seconds with an EO after a decision like that.


They'd pull the same stunt that they did for Trump. If Trump had been convicted for the Jan 6th riot, that would've disqualified him from becoming president. So SCOTUS dragged out the appeal that reached them. Then their decision made it ridiculously burdensome to continue. If Musk were nominated as vice president and somebody sued, SCOTUS could drag out that case past the end of the term. Then they'd drop it as moot.


IMO they have been ignoring the literal text of the Constitution for quite some time.


We've already had that decision, last year. Trump v. Anderson. Per the Supreme Court, if Congress doesn't explicitly call something out down to the last detail and already have anyone potentially impacted on double-secret probation, then oops, too bad, nothing anyone else can do to enforce the Constitution.

The Vice-President and President need to meet the standards in the Constitution? Did Congress pass a law establishing how those standards are to be judged and enforced? No? Guess they don't matter then. If Congress wanted, it could pass a law and Trump could sign it. Unless that happens, the Constitution is just unenforceable. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯



if a foreign born person can not become president, i guess they can't become vp either?


that is correct but the OP's point is that SCOTUS won't care about that


right, ok


In Russia they say, "we have lots of laws, just no one pays any attention to them". Russia is a law-less State. Concur with how things are progressing now in USA. Congress and Senate both subverted by too many voters being deceived by D. Elections not well-informed, so not actually functional.


> elect Musk as the new VP

I think Musk is unconstitutional for that role? Not natural born Anerican.



Those rules surely only apply to regular peasants^Wsubjects^Wpeople


I don't know what would get the military to refuse orders, but I suspect that openly disregarding the constitution is one of the more likely.


There’s a strong argument to go with who has the most satellites.


you just launder a SCOTUS decision with some braindead argument and 50% of the country will believe it overnight


Sure, and I'd default to assuming the % in the military is always higher because they're trained to follow orders.

But if anything makes some among them say "to allow this would be to violate my oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic", then disregarding the constitution would be it.

I'm not saying the administration wouldn't try it. I am suggesting that it may lead to a demonstration of how NIJ RF3 doesn't stop 120×570mm NATO.



Vance has even better chances of lasting the entire term after his pro-Russia performance today.


Would you like to wager against JD Vance lasting the entire term?


Seriously. He parroted his boss to the best of his ability. I'm sure trump is perfectly pleased with his "performance".


And just generally, every time someone told me Trump wasn’t going to last the first term or run again I tried to bet them. A few took me up.

It’s a strange fantasy that guy you don’t like will just go away. How many presidents or VPs don’t last a full term? Anyone who thinks that has let their emotions divorce their logic from reality, and is thus a good person to wager against



I suspect Trump lasting the entire term is less likely.

If something happens to Trump after January 20th, 2027, Vance can serve out the remainder of this term, then run as the incumbent for two additional terms as a frontman for the Musk/Thiel axis, a role he has played well for some time.

If the country's rulers want to bother to keep the pretense of Constitutional government, that is.



> OTOH, a minerals deal with the US ensures that the US will have a stake in defending the postwar ukraine.

Most of the minerals are in russian-occupied territory, so if they want that they would also need to further arm Ukraine now.



It does not seem like Trump actually wants a deal. They are not offering anything. It appears to be simply a pretext to have some reason to berate Ukraine and Zelenskyy.

"Oh you won't take our [completely ridiculous] deal? I guess we'll just have to side with Russia then!" Like that's not what they were going to do anyway.



nope, they can do a deal with the Russians.


> JdVance will not last for long - is there procedure to replace him?

fwiw, the President cannot fire the VP. The Vice Presidency is an independent political office.



Vance is currently trading sideways to slightly up on Kalshi's market for who will be the Republican nominee in the next election.


>a minerals deal with the US ensures that the US will have a stake in defending the postwar ukraine.

It will not. Trump will simply use the deal as an excuse to betray Ukraine (more than he already has). I can practically hear it playing out now.

"I had to force Ukraine to completely surrender to Russia. It was the only way to make sure Russia honored the mineral rights granted to my billionaire friends."



> JdVance will not last for long - is there procedure to replace him?

Why won't he last long?



Too controversial, tends to overshadow his notoriously insecure boss


This is what made Mike Pence the perfect VP for Trump at the time - he was never gonna steal the spotlight from Trump. However, Trump is focused almost entirely on loyalty now - the one thing that Mike Pence lacked in the end.


Mike Pence was loyal to his boss -- the US Constitution -- to the end. He would never have thrived under the new Constitution-free order any way.


> It looks like the US wants a regime change in Ukraine, it's possible that this became a pre condition from russia for talks to go forward.

It's not just possible, it was stated openly multiple times by Russian diplomats. The official position is: anything signed by Zelensky has potential to be invalidated later, because according to constitution of Ukraine he is not a legitimate president anymore. So this legal loophole should be removed before signing any agreements.



> JdVance will not last for long - is there procedure to replace him?

Why would he "not last long"? Who would remove him? Would they not also remove Trump if they could remove Vance?



I think Vance will stay; he’s playing Trump’s tune.


Putin said he would gladly share with the US. So there is yet another, larger carrot dangling in front of Trump's eyes.


Like Gaza for the development of Kushner's hotels on the seaside.

And I bet the right-wing-conservative scum helping him from Israel already got their shares.



The outcome was predetermined. Z was not fully sold on this, and Trump/Vance just wanted to maximize the optics, hence the fall out. Just a small ripple, the deep states will rebalance this out.


Full video of the entire meeting https://youtu.be/um19Mf4dYes


DT: "This is good TV"

Wow!



That stuck out to me too, that's where his head was at...just astonishing.


they say i have the best ratings, beautiful ratings, big, huge ratings, and they never talk about that even though our ratings are the best, can you imagine that, they would rather talk about BIDEN, even though biden was the stupidest president, and did nothing for our country, absolutely nothing, a disgrace, really


Reminds me of when Trump bragged about the TV ratings for the White House press briefings during Covid, saying the ratings were on par with "The Bachelor" and "Monday Night Football". Ugh.

https://www.reuters.com/article/world/us/trump-brags-about-h...



Turns out people really tune in when the world is on fire!


expect nothing more from a president who rug pulls his own people


It's all about appearances with him, all the time.

The best way to get him to do something you want, is to stroke his ego, make him look good publicly.



This is very interesting, thanks for posting. It starts out very positively anyway.


At 11m40s in it still seemed to be going well... an almost adorable exchange between the two leaders about who gave more EU or US.


Could all of this have been avoided if USA voters had been given a slice of USA's GDP growth over the years?

Rising wages, lower taxes, or 35 hour work weeks, instead of stagnation and inflation. So they wouldn't turn to a populist outsider.



[flagged]



The people got tricked into thinking that a transitioned male competing in a 3rd league of a sport nobody watches is a larger threat to them than giving more power to the rich.


No one thinks that's a "threat", they just rejected the party that's pushing the Big Lie that men can get pregnant. The people didn't get tricked into voting for a party that hates them.


Not sure why my GP post was flagged, it was upvoted. I simply stated:

The election was a referendum on the economy and woke/DEI. The people rejected the left's new religion.



Anybody can get a slice of USA’s GDP growth — just buy S&P500. Too many people instead prefer to spend that money on Uber Eats and new iPhone every year.


If you're an American and want to vent your frustrations, you could try the US Capitol switchboard (202) 224-3121 .

You can contact your senator and ask how they are contributing to the safety and prosperity of Americans, or just human beings in general.



My senators are both strongly in support of this. Bill Hagerty's website's top news story is from yesterday, but it pretty much restates everything Trump said today. And I'm sure I don't need to explain Marsha Blackburn's opinion. Republicans gerrymandered the state, so the Representative in the House is about the same. Unless I suddenly win the lottery, I don't think they're interested in hearing my opinion.


They notice when lots of constituents call in all at once.

At least you have a congressperson on the wrong side of this who is worth pressuring. I am very tired of making calls that just say "I know you say you're on the right side of this, but will you please try to do anything?"



i've been thinking a lot about this lately. how do we move from asking rhetorical questions of elected leaders into actually compelling them to act on our behalf? there's little to no connection between public will and its representation.


Just protest on the streets already!


How the mighty have fallen. The 20th century was the american century, the 21st doesn't look like it lately. This is an empire in decline.


>This is an empire in decline.

"To the privileged, equality feels like oppression" [questionable attribution]

As a retired union [IBEW] American, I am happy to see more countries gain footing within our global economy. Respectable competition among a distribution of the powerful keeps any one entity from a monopoly of exploiting the entire world/workers.



Bit of a tangent, but I wondered if anyone here is particularly into the serious business of foreign affairs/international relations, and can recommend a primer -- or even a curriculum -- for someone wanting to become more knowledgeable about the field. As with anything, I suspect one is better able to appreciate the ramifications of events of this sort with a more nuanced and informed perspective.


I can recommend every Dwarkesh Patel pod and lecture with Sarah C. M. Paine. History is the best teacher, and that's her specialty. I learned a lot from each of the following:

https://www.dwarkeshpatel.com/p/sarah-paine (WW2, Taiwan, Ukraine, & Maritime vs Continental Powers)

https://www.dwarkeshpatel.com/p/sarah-paine-india

https://www.dwarkeshpatel.com/p/sarah-paine-japan

https://www.dwarkeshpatel.com/p/sarah-paine-china



I can second this recommendation. The first interview he did, he was a bit rusty as a interviewer but the 3 followups was great, he did his homework. All 4 are good tough, I'm not sure it is helpful for "international relations" of today as much as good to understand history from multiple perspective. I think they are a good foundation on "how to think/see perspective in things", but history always have hindsight so practicing that is a bit harder.

There's also Decoding Geopolitics Podcast (full content is paywalled) since he talks with actual experts. There's ofc US bias in experts, and usually actual experts can be kinda boring to listen to initially.

But experts in international politics seems to disagree on a lot of stuff, and when one big thing happens it seems like a new face always momentarily pop up (John Mearsheimer, Peter Zeihan etc, for Ukraine war). A good rule of thumb seems to be to not get too fixated by one voice.

Its refreshing to hear some experts being able to healthily disagree, such as Mearsheimer & Sach in this[1] for example. That should be the take away from Sarah Paine interview too, she's good at making clear what she can & can't say for sure. Contrast that with say Zeihan. [1] https://youtu.be/uvFtyDy_Bt0?feature=shared



There seem to be at least two kinds of experts. First, there are those who have actually worked as foreign ministers, presidents, chiefs of armed forces, heads of intelligence services, and in other similar positions. Their expertise comes from direct participation in events and first-hand knowledge of how things work. Carl Bildt, Alex Younger, Ben Hodges, Radoslaw Sikorski are people like this.

Then there are the kinds of experts like Mearsheimer and Zeihan, who are little more than avid book readers. They are often wildly off track without understanding it, because they have no real experience to ground them.

The second kind is best avoided.



The 2 posts you are replying to are about professor Sarah Paine (with one parenthetical reference to Mearsheimer and Zeihan).

Professor Paine has never "actually worked as foreign ministers, presidents, chiefs of armed forces, heads of intelligence services, and in other similar positions", but she has studied the Russian language and Russian culture, and has made a career at the Naval War College in studying and writing on Russia's security policy and situation.

Should we avoid her, too?



"Having studied the Russian language and culture extensively" seems relatively modest compared to having negotiated the withdrawal of Russian forces from Europe (Bildt) or having led the MI6 (Younger). It's like taking programming advice from someone who has only read biographies of famous computer scientists and never actually worked on a software project with others.


I suspect there's value to both your perspective and GP's insofar as both can help understand international affairs in the present day. The "avid book readers" vary widely in quality but are more likely to write down what they've learned; as someone who doesn't know enough to discern the quality from the trash, I guess I'm asking whose writings are worth the effort.

Oh, and thank you both.



Historian Timothy Snider has some lectures online and wrote some great books. I’m reading his book Bloodlands now. Then there is Anne Applebaum.

But this is a wide topic, I suppose various biographies would help. Older books could help, e.g. “Prince” is old but a classic.

You could also lookup reading lists in best known universities under political science and international relations.



Well, if you want to understand Russia, China, and Trump, read this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Law_of_Nations

That's how politics was done before WW2.



As a complete layman, I highly recommend the YouTube channel of William Spaniel, along with his second channel Lines on Maps Extra. He explains current political events from his academic perspective. Regarding what happened now, the TL/DR conclusion is that Trump wants Europe to focus on its own defense, while US will brace for potential conflict with China. If you think that NATO might get caught up in a two-front war, this makes a lot of sense. The fact that Trump uses unorthodox methods to achieve this isn't exactly interesting on its own, which is why the heated discussion shouldn't really deserve as much attention as it does.


You could do a lot worse than starting by reading this: https://www.orwellfoundation.com/the-orwell-foundation/orwel...


This comment getting downvoted into the negatives is hilarious.


One more, somewhat important, detail that's also very telling about where the US administration is heading.

Reuters and Associated Press were barred from Oval Office during this meeting, but a Russian state news agency TASS reporter was allowed - into the Oval Office.

Wake up America before it's too late.



> Wake up America before it's too late.

The time to wake up was 2016. It is already too late.

33% of Americans have their heads in the sand and are believing the establishment talking points and amplifying them.

33% know what is going on and are cheering it on.

33% don’t care either way.

Hard to say which group is doing more damage to the country tbh.



I think a lot of Americans are truly taking the "both sides are bad" stance and thinking that it makes them superior and choose not to vote.

I think they're actively harmful. "Both sides are bad" is a thought-ending cliche.



"God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference."


There are those of us that hate this but have no idea how they can help.


What specific problem are you looking to solve?


Presumably one of the issues being discussed here, such as mitigating the effects of Russia's wildly successful manipulation campaigns that have resulted in both US policy and cultural shifts in favor of Russian interests. To skip some steps in this comment chain, and at risk of being presumptuous, pick an option from this technically-exhaustive list:

Do you believe that:

1. Russia has not engaged in misinformation-based influence campaigns targeting US citizens

2. Russia has engaged in such campaigns but to no tangible effect, and they therefore require no response

3. Russia's influence campaigns saw success, but not to the detriment of the US, and they therefore require no response

4. Russia's success harms US interests, but it would be hypocritical to actively respond given the US' past actions

5. Russia's success is tethered to cultural shifts, which are impermanent and therefore don't necessitate an active response

6. Russia's success can only be effectively countered by the gov't, so civilian attempts at helping are futile

7. None of the items above relate to the topic of discussion in this thread, i.e. this comment effectively strawman-ing

8. The above points are non-exhaustive

I'm quite sure an intelligent person with an open mind can be convinced that each of the above points is false, save the last one.



[flagged]



Okay, a video attributing fault of the UA crisis to the West. Which of the options I listed are you attempting to back with this source, or put another way, which of my implied claims does this counter? Help me see the relevance.

If we rewind the comment chain back to the root, and just consider this video in the context of today's meeting - can you explain how the points made by the video or the general attribution of fault for the crisis lends support to the strategy and conduct displayed earlier today?

If you want to talk about whether or not the US is at fault for the war, you're in the wrong thread.



[flagged]



A world in which this is true is likely still a world where presidents should not be conducting puppet shows.


I 100% agree. I am also deeply dissatisfied with the state of diplomacy. I also think these negotiations should be handled by a strong and independent Europe.

Regardless of who is pulling the strings, they should be negotiating and ending conflict, like in the Minsk agreements, which were torn down by the west. In fact, Angela Merkel herself stated in 2022 that the 2014 peace agreements were an attempt to give Ukraine time to militarize and eventually join NATO.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/what-are-minsk-agreemen...

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/putin-says-loss-trust-w...



To follow your line of questioning, which I do appreciate, It would be that Russia has engaged in influence campaigns in the West, of course, but that we do that the West does this as a matter of course worldwide and our schemes are much more elaborate, anyway.

I also agree about in 5, Russia is convieniently riding a wave of populist conservatism which Putin (cynically, corruption-based, or otherwise) aligned with the Orthodox alignment in Russia. (Men/Women are different, global woke policy, SDG development goals etc) Many working class people are sick to death of effete urbane progressive politics (doesn't even really benefit any core economics) I would say this is a bigger propaganda play from Russia = Give sympathetic activists ammunition for cultural victories (that were fragile and brainless Western ideas anyway.)

The problem with this granular obsession of a deep Russia conspiracy inside the US is that you aren't even really aware about what the propaganda they are saying on their side and not really cogniscent that Western foreign policies engage in pretty ugly propaganda, unlawful killings as a matter business.

Russia propaganda is simply more advanced version of the type of propaganda we were doing anyway. It's just that you don't see your own side as capable of misinformation, influence peddling worldwide and they are guilty of it.

EUROMAIDAN was a Western intelligence op — and you worry about what; a few scary Facebook ads? Is there a particular piece of misinfo on RT you are concerned about?



> EUROMAIDAN was a Western intelligence op

[Citation severely needed]



Look into contemporary funding and actions by USAID, National Endowment for Democracy, many NGOs and media organisations. It's pretty blatant and now starting to be documented by our own media:

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/25/world/europe/cia-ukraine-...



So, no citation. Got it.


You want some kind of press release where the US state department announced it as a “coup”?

Are you even slightly familiar with US foreign policy in the world? Do you know about what happened in Kosovo/Yugoslavia? Or the Middle East, South America history? Do you know the typical function of US foreign policy arm is to orchestrate regime change?

You really are a special kind of midwit if you can’t see that by now.



Yikes—please don't break the site guidelines like this (and again at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43213814). We have to ban accounts that do that.

If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it.

From a quick (and shallow) skim of the thread, I gather that you're representing a minority viewpoint—inevitably so, because this forum is majority Western and naturally reflects the Western point of view. When commenters find themselves in a minority/contrarian position on the internet, they often resort to name-calling and other barbs. It's understandable as a response to pressure, but it's not ok to do that here. We can't apply the rules differently depending on such factors.

At the same time, it's in HN's interest to have contrarian views represented, as long as people do it while respecting the site guidelines. So when I run across an example like this, I often try to make this argument in the hope of persuading the person in your position! It doesn't usually work, but one can hope.

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

It's also in your own interests to follow the rules, because when you break them, you discredit whatever truth you may be arguing for. That doesn't help you or anyone else, and majorities are always looking for an easy excuse to dismiss minorities. (I'm not talking about the current topic here; I believe all majorities do this.)

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...

slater 3 days ago [flagged] | | | | [–]


Are you even slightly familiar with US foreign policy in the world?

Yes.

Do you know about what happened in Kosovo/Yugoslavia?

Ar you implying some kind of "USA hates Serbia! Serbia did nothing wrong!!1~" revisionism?

Or the Middle East, South America history?

Yes

You really are a special kind of midwit if you can’t see that by now.

plonk.



Please don't respond to a bad comment by perpetuating a flamewar yourself. That only makes things worse.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html



Nice elaborate sentences there, midwit.


Been saying since the Clinton years that the American electorate is a three-way split between the stupid, the crazy and the feckless.


I think there's a large portion (let's call it 22.47%... aka the percentage that voted for Kamala) know exactly what's going on, care a ton, and lost the election.

And then there's a large percentage for whom this whole thing just feels futile. It's not that they don't care, but they dislike Trump and feel like Democrats are unable/unwilling to rise to the occasion. (After all, 4 years later, Democrats just fired up the republican base and did nothing to protect Americans)



> (let's call it 22.47%... aka the percentage that voted for Kamala) know exactly what's going on

I thought like this but I've come to realize that a lot of Harris voters were suffering from illusions about the likely efficacy of the government she would form. Regardless of her own competence, the democratic party has serious issues, and not many Harris supporters were being honest (if they were aware) about this until well after they lost the election.

I think it's dangerous to think her voters know what's really going on. The issues are genuinely country-wide and not specific only to republicans.

More level-headed republicans are right about a lot of problems in the USA. They want government efficiency for good reasons. Is DOGE the right solution? Absolutely not, it's insane. But these people are happy to see certain initiatives because they're overdue, and they're not wrong about that. Free speech for example; that has become a bit more dodgy over the years. The western world is beginning to press on freedom of speech in subtle ways (especially in the UK), and a lot of republicans care (they should!) but virtually no democrats I know care.

I know the current administration (or X.com) is implementing the worst versions of these things, I don't support it at all, but my point is: there is good sense on both sides, yet also total nonsense on both sides.

That's my take from here in Canada, at least.



Just fyi - That reporter wasn't on the approved list and was removed once white house staff became aware of their presence.


Are you saying they got into the oval office accidentally? That seems really hard to believe.


"Russian state media wandered into the Oval Office without permission" really isn't a comforting explanation.


I've read that too. Do we seriously believe that a random person can get into the Oval Office, for one of the most important high level meeting of the past years ?


This is what's know as "ass-covering."


this makes it even worse


I know they said that, but, really? Since when does an unauthorized person get access to the Oval Office? That would be a huge fail by the Secret Service.


Yeah, it's definitely a head-scratcher. I wonder how often unapproved people make it in. Seems like a major security risk to have someone unapproved in the room with that many high-level government leaders from multiple countries.

I'm wondering if they were given a pass by another approved news agency or something along those lines.



That’s why I think they are lying


What exactly are you suggesting by "Wake up"? How can I actionably do something to "wake up"?


It's getting to be about time for pitchforks and torches in front of the offices and homes of your elected Senate and House representatives demanding they exercise their constitutional duty of checks and balances against the executive.

At the very least send letters, make phone calls. Let them know if they don't stand up to a dictator they've lost your vote.

Comment on all of the elected Democrats' posts "oh no repulicans just did this!" and let them know that whining isn't leading and they need to shut up and do something.

I'm encouraging every Democrat to register as a Republican, vote for the most centrist candidates in the next primary, and if they win, vote for any Republican that has an independent thought over a Democrat who knows nothing but how to sit around uselessly and complain.

And when the revolution comes, the first people who should get the most blame are those who chose not to use the power they had to do anything about it.



This.

People abroad don't realize, the average American person is completely powerless.

Yes, we may lament the troubles that the current administration is causing for our allies, (or, I guess, former allies) abroad, but there's next to nothing we can do about it.

Again, buyer's remorse is all we can muster right now and it doesn't do anyone any good. At this point, we have no choice but to search for what positives we can work with that come out of the current administration, and just live with the consequences of the rest.



Young people often feel powerless today indeed, not only in the US but in most parts of the West.

One of the reason is that they never had to go through really tough times - as a country. We're living in times of prosperity and stability pretty much all of our lives. And we take it for granted. It's not !

But the thing is, that people do have power. Start calling your representatives, take it to the streets. All of you. If the 50% of voters that voted for Harris show up on the streets protesting, things will change. Take real action.



If the 50% of people voting for Harris show up, that would be maybe 30% of the US. Probably, not, but I feel like being generous. And that's assuming they all show up. Which we both know they won't.

I think people severely underestimate the level of apathy out in society right now. Until things affect them, they likely aren't gonna be terribly interested.



100% agree. But if 30% of the US showed up on the streets, that would already be unprecedented.

But somehow, people feel better doom scrolling and feeling powerless. It's kind of a nice excuse to not to do anything.

That worked most of the time, in the recent past. But it looks like we're at a major turning point in US history.



30% of the population protesting - that would be absolutely enormous! Revolutions are made by single digit numbers


What about all that talk about the second amendment and it being an essential right to fight an oppressive government? Aren’t the “good guys with guns” supposed to be keeping the government in check?


The second amendment was put in place very explicitly as the final check against a despotic overthrow of the Constitution. Realize we're at the very brink and prepare yourself for a revolution. And stop fooling yourself into thinking things can't be that bad.


Maybe start with protests, like normal people.


I said final resort. We’re not there but we’re closer than we’ve ever been in hundreds of years of republic. A responsible citizen has to start thinking. It’s not a last resort that should be taken lightly.


We've been having them. the media ain't covering it.


The thing about the second amendment is that if only the side in power believes in it and is willing to uphold it, then you don't really have a right to bear arms, you have a right to oppress the citizenry with violence.


There won't be a revolution, who do you think the gun owners all voted for? As long as Trump doesn't touch their guns, they aren't going to do a damned thing.


I think you're missing the point of what was meant by "prepare for revolution", and confusing the folks who are vocal with their political views and those who aren't.


I guess we'll see, but I'm not holding my breath.


its funny that dems are those who suppress second amendment.




Yes, options are to have some number(potentially insignificant compared to deaths caused by obesity or overdoses for example) mass shootings or kiss the feet of the dictator.


Slovaks are protesting, Uktainians protested with their Euromaidan. Where are your protests?


Maybe you didn't read the part where I said we don't care?

We, as a people, don't care. We don't even care about the problems we have. It's not gonna be easy to make us care about the problem some other people have.



I think start participating in protests to begin with.


I remember when that was tried and ignored.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_against_the_Iraq_War

I find this sort of suggestion to be 100% reminiscent from Ship of Fools, or to be slightly more charitable and work-safe, the protestors in the lemonade episode of Boondocks. The captain is nuts, Jasmine is almost a slave, and you're going to protest?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hn-BXw_8RbI



Smell the coffee.


There are plenty of us who are awake. But lots of the voting public wanted this man in office. And they are getting what they wanted, apparently, b/c he was clear about who he is and what he was going to do.

We'll have at least two years of this. One can hope 2026 will see a massive tide turn in congress and the Senate and maybe Trump will be impeached. But, it doesn't seem likely, and even if it happened, they can't impeach his entire administration so not sure how much can really change until 2028.



Slovaks also elected Fico, but they are also protesting like hell.

A democratic leader is a leader to all, not only to his voter base.

Where are your protests?



[flagged]



You posted this 24 times. That's abusive. Please stop now.

Also, we ban accounts that cross into name-calling and personal attack, so please stop that too, regardless of how wrong others are or you feel they are.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html



Out of curiosity, why is posting the same link repeatedly abusive? This is a long discussion, and I can see some particular information being relevant in many different conversations that are taking place here. In a discussion with only a few comments it would be easy to scan the entire list of comments for interesting information. But I feel like in such a large discussion where everything is drowned out, sharing the same link repeatedly in different places (if relevant to each of those sub discussions) isn’t so bad?


In addition to what pvg (correctly) said, there's a big difference between carrying on a nuanced conversation, where you're connecting specifically to what other commenters are saying, vs. spraying the same material rapidly through a thread.


Because repetition is boring and the goal is interesting conversation rather than ensuring you don’t miss an interesting link. The interesting links are supposed to be a side effect of you engaging in or simply reading an interesting conversation. Summary comments, LLM output and prepared linkathons are discouraged for similar reasons, if the parallel helps at all.


Do you have any examples of “Summary comments, LLM output and prepared linkathons”? I’m not sure what a prepared linkathon is at all, and I wonder if the other two are as bad as you suggest, and maybe seeing it would help.


by "prepared linkathon" I mean specifically what that commenter was doing - you have a pre-made reply of N (for N >= 1) links that you keep spraying everywhere.

The others

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

But I'm not sure what you mean by "as bad as you suggest". I wasn't suggesting a level of badness, more describing HN's messageboard goals, however aspirational.

Edit: and since we're exchanging questions, I'm curious what sorts of human interactions do you have in mind in which repeating the same thing 20-odd times is not considered, if not outright abusive, at least impolite and non-constructive. I can think of a couple - say, sports events or protests. But none of these map to 'nerd messageboard' in any meaningful way I can see.



Frankly what's worse is seeing such a magnitude of evidence to the contrary of popular discourse, yet being entirely unable to help bring context into the fray.

Instead, we get regurgitation of tired propaganda and heavily misleading narratives. If the world looks exceptionally confusing and chaotic, or if the world is fully of irrational boogeymen, that's just because you don't have the right perspective yet.

The geopolitics community knows the situation well, and doesn't look at Trump as a big scary orange man. They look at Trump as another American elite, who's been elected during a chaotic time in American society. You can also look up Jeffery Sachs (social democrat) who speaks at length about these issues.

I've mostly lost faith in the conversations on here. HN mostly is a competition about who can sound the most fancy. The actual content of the discussion has become tertiary. At this point, my only goal is to reach out to those who are open minded and haven't heard these other perspectives. To hell with internet points.



Well, that's an argument and you certainly can and should make it in response to whoever you are hoping to convince somewhere in the thread. Pasting the same URL at people is not 'discourse' or conversation, it's sloganeering. You can't do that while also decrying "regurgitation".


Someone needs to figure out how to deprogram MAGA voters.


Going to bat for AP and Reuters, golly


Out of curiosity, what sources of information do you trust more than AP and Reuters?


Primary sources.


"All those decades of the arms race, and it turned out there was no greater damage you could inflict on a state than ensure it was led by an idiot." –Mick Herron, Bad Actors (from the Slough House/Slow Horses series)


Not sure idiot is the right word for Trump.


Sorry about the podcast link, the gist is that Ukraine now can build drones from cardboard, controlled from Kiev, London etc. that can destroy Russian tanks.

https://www.ft.com/content/8793e218-9dc4-43a8-8183-e2a092bbb...



More of the Ukraine conversation needs to be focused on this topic. The future of warfare is digital, automated, and utterly terrifying, and it's currently being shaped on the Ukrainian frontlines. Western militaries are going to be able to leapfrog their force structure based on the learnings in this war.

Ukraine is paying with their citizens lives for NATO to receive this education, while simultaneously weakening one of the western world's most dangerous geopolitical rivals. The fact that Americans can't see through the Fox News propaganda to understand this is unbelievable, embarrassing, and will set them back on the world stage for a generation or more.



Let’s be honest though: there has been an immense amount of propaganda on both sides. How many times has Ukraine reportedly embarrassed Russia, knocked them back on their heels, been within weeks of winning? All with young beautiful people on the front lines singing patriotic songs?

Russia is certainly the aggressor, let’s make no mistake. But I honestly can’t make heads or tails of what is actually happening in Ukraine because of all the universal propaganda



>The fact that Americans can't see through the Fox News propaganda to understand this is unbelievable, embarrassing, and will set them back on the world stage for a generation or more.

Just a friendly reminder to not paint "Americans" with a broad brush. We may not have got our way this past election, but there are plenty of us who see through the fucking bullshit.



I think you're in the minority. All Trump had to say was "I'll end wokeism and immigration" and he easily won the election.


>I think you're in the minority.

Whoa, you don't say.



All the opposition had to say was "I'll end wokeism and immigration and will also [popular policy Trump is against]" and they could have easily won themselves


The Democrats not being capable of winning and not taking the Trump threat seriously is another story. They are the third culprit after the naive voters and the scrupleless Republicans.


"We've seen that international law doesn't really work, but international engineering is very effective"

I would not bet against Ukraine.



Trouble with drones is that Russia makes them too.


Yes but Russians are attacking which makes them more vulnerable, i.e. their armored vehicles. Also, sanctions prevent Russians from using high tech components. Drones are a panacea but a great tool in defence.


A lot of promise about Ukraine "knockout blows" that turn out like woeful summer offensive or the dalliance in Kursk.


Yes, Zelensky just called Trump's bluff more or less.


And what will happen? Will the GOP do anything? Will the rest of NATO deal a devastating enough blow to Russia that it is forced to retreat? Will Russia not retaliate with a limited nuclear escalation?

Don’t forget that the whole “Iron Dome” thing Trump has been talking about, if viable, would necessarily prompt immediate attacks before it becomes operational.



>if viable

Well, fortunately there's no way it could be viable, but that's relying on China and Russia to not fall for it.



Don't forget that Ukraine has a pretty good donation website setup if that happens to be a cause you are willing and have the financial resources to give to.


As a Ukrainian, I'd like to caution that perhaps there are two funds you may want to consider over UA24 - one of which has full transparency and spotless track record (there have been concerns over UA24) where-as another used to be a political activist for a long time turned media personality turned biggest fund who directly sources thousands of FPV drones (more than 150k at this moment) and has the best proven quality of the "produce":

- "Come Back Alive" fund https://savelife.in.ua/en/ which have full transparency, checks and balances

- "Sternenko Community" which until recently was just a set of bank accounts, which directly funds strike drone production https://x.com/sternenko/status/1894360283595800643

I donate monthly to the latter (alongside donations towards my ex-colleagues and acquaintances serving at the front lines and supply, but those are usually private), but I think western audience may be more comfortable with the former. Either way we appreciate your support in this tragedy of a war. Thank you.



https://u24.gov.ua/ You can choose the allocation of your donation, defence, or if you'd rather donate to other causes, humanitarian aid, demining, rebuilding (...)

A few months ago in my city, an ambulance shelled by Russians in kharkiv was shown. It was quite destroyed, and chock full of holes. It was quite moving



@dang perhaps you could pin https://u24.gov.ua/ to the top of the comments?

Either way, I've donated 50 bucks; seems like a great way to show support on a difficult day for Ukraine.



FYI, "@dang" doesn't do anything; HN doesn't have @-mentions. If you have suggestions for the mod team, you should email [email protected].


An explicit endorsement of Ukraine seems a little weird as an official stance from HN.


Weird in what way?


I guess he's saying that hn is "non tilted/neutral" toward any political stance, and as such pinning a comment to a Ukrainian donation gov website could be seen as "supporting" someone


Neutrality is bullshit for cowards who want to profit from both sides. Neutrality is siding with the aggressor.


It's an age old debate for sure but "bullshit for cowards" isn't reasoning about it, it's propaganda wording just as easily employed by the aggressor trying to silence people who don't support the war. Since there's no need to mask the real reasoning here, why employ those kinds of attacks?


I could have written it nicer but I was annoyed. Thanks for calling me out.

But I stand by the point. What is not clear? If A attacks B, and B would be happy to revert to back to state before the attack, then C saying it's not it's problem, it's neutral or that it only supports "peace" (letting A win by making B surrender) is not C being neutral. It's direct support of the attacker.



It's all cool, no worries.

I think what's least clear about your framing is how and why e.g. someone wanting to remain neutral/peaceful can ONLY imply their opinion is "B should surrender so A can win" or similar type statements. Thoughts like "if you don't support B then you must hope A wins" or "If you want peace it means giving A what it wants" are not full arguments in themselves, they are just the claims repeated.

For example, there are certainly those who want Ukraine to just surrender some of its land for peace (the POTUS seeming to be one). That by itself does not explain they MUST be supporting Russia, it just opens the door for such a possibility. Some along these lines of wanting peace/surrender don't support Russia but don't think there'd be anything of Ukraine left at all if the war were to escalate further. Others of completely different opinion believe de-escalation over time towards peace talks will lead to better and better "A and B returning things to the way they were" type results given enough time - but only if the pressure/interest/escalation/pile-on is lowered instead of raised. Yet others have different takes on why/how to be neutral/peaceful and what they think it will end with. And, of course, some genuinely don't support Ukraine because they view the situation as a risk themselves - we just can't jump to that being the only possibility without more reasoning for the rest first.

Now I'm not here to try and argue you should agree with these arguments or that if you respond to just the above points you've now countered the full spectrum of opposing opinion by any stretch of the measure. The only reason I bring these examples up is to show how repeating the conclusion "being neutral is only supporting the attacker" isn't as much providing a point as conveying your current stance. To argue points around it is to try to give credence to why that is the only (or most) correct conclusion and approach and where the other opposing ideas all fell short.

When the depth of consideration of counter-arguments instead comes across as "the other side are just bullshit cowards" or "it's just clear" the best you can hope for is a lot of "ooh-rah" for people who already agreed and a coinciding complete write off from those who disagreed.

As an addendum: Folks (not necessarily you, people like to AI summarize comment history) sometimes take what I say to mean I personally don't support Ukraine or that I explicitly support Trump's actions around this or whatever else they come up with. I personally support Ukraine to fully return to its pre-war borders, disavow most of the government of Russia's actions, and am severely disappointed with Trump's treatment of Zelensky (bringing things back to the original thread). I just have relatively strong opinions about how tone of conversation can be overall damaging for a ideology regardless of the intent or literal stance.



Agree


Sounds good, but if you want activism, then maybe a venture capitalist site is not the best place to organize it.


You just need to spin it the good way...

Donating to ukraine. Now, with ai



real


[flagged]



No personal attacks, please.


I don't think I did any personal attacks. I simply pointed out that, if they think Neutrality is for cowards, they should probably join in the fight that they believe in instead of not acting, aka neutral.


That "if you feel so strongly why don't you go fight" trope is a cliché of personal attack, since it insinuates hypocrisy and cowardice. If you say you didn't mean it that way, I believe you, but it would still land that way with many readers, so it's necessary to disambiguate these things more clearly.

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...



You are a saint moderating hot threads dispassionately like this. I appreciate you.


Most come to news.ycombinator.com expecting see ycombinator activities and content from fellow users, not to find out what Dang's latest endorsement is. When we all feel a certain importance to something content about it appears and bubbles to the top automatically.


It's commendable and brave to publicly stand up and show that you have values. I wish more people understood that by watching Zelensky over the past three years.


especially with pg trying to suck up to president musk


thanks, I once again donated a bit even though cannot much.

I just feel for the guy, and for the country, too. What a friggin mess we've left them



fuck it, just donated 500 (there goes my drinking money for the rest month! probably helped I am drunk right now)

edit: just realized it is the 2nd. hard month ahead I guess!



I'd buy you a drink if I could.


just wired some bucks for defence, thanks


Thanks for the link, glad to donate


Thanks for the reminder. Donated some for defense.


Wonder how long until donating to UKR gets you put on some sort of government list.


It already does, don’t go to russia in any case if you’ve donated even few bucks.


I'm sure it already does put you on a list. That's just the way any government works. That information is valuable.


[flagged]



If Ukraine falls - it’ll absolutely get sanctioned. It’ll be Russia in all but name.

Same with Afganistan - the government the US set up fell and the Taliban took over - of course they get sanctioned.



[flagged]



Sure does suck that Russia invaded Ukraine and caused this loss of human life, right?


Pretty sure Ukraine shelled its own people for ~6 years before that.


Pretty sure Russia invaded Georgia before that in preparation for invading Ukraine


Pretty sure there were UN monitors and reports. Funny the people that make this claim never sight those reports.


Do you not know how many of your tax dollars were already given to Ukraine?


If you want the actual number, about 13 bucks per month per taxpayer[1]. So about what, three to four coffees a month to protect 40 million free people from defending themselves from autocracy?

[1]https://www.npr.org/transcripts/1197958571



You took the $165 / 12 and arrived at 13 bucks per month per taxpayer.

But if you had read the rest of the transcript, you’d arrive at this beautiful part:

“The numbers we came up with, the $165 per person and the $11.25 per person, aren't really real because they are based on this idea that everything we sent to Ukraine and everything we sent to Israel came from tax revenue, and that's just not the case.

MCMANUS: The revenue that goes in is not necessarily connected to how the government is actually budgeting. What we're paying in taxes just does not have to match what we spend. So the whole exercise is sort of irrelevant.

GONZALEZ: It's irrelevant because of one big elephant in the room, which is deficit spending. We spend more than we bring in as a country.”

And from who is the US borrowing most of their money from? It currently owes China roughly 850 billion USD, and it has to pay interest on this.

And how does it pay this interest? Either it borrows more, growing the problem, or it is a portion of your taxes going straight to China <3.



>And from who is the US borrowing most of their money from?

The American people, largely. China owns roughly 3% of America's debt. The overwhelming majority of American debt is hold domestically (and thus eventually returns to US citizens) But if the 13 bucks weren't precise enough for you, the 4% interest America pays on 10 year bonds I suppose bring the monstrous bill up another 50 cents per decade, truly a game changer when it comes to defending the free world.



Ah just noticed I misunderstood your initial post, my bad. I agree with you.

Yes, about ~23% of the USD debt is international. I mentioned China to focus on places where taxes go internationally.



It's an interesting exercise in basic math and knowing your tax code. My bet is under 5 bucks for the whole last 3 years.


Are there actual, living people thinking that donating to Ukraine will influence anything? These donations might as well be a margin of error compared to government funding, aid packages and what not.

The Ukraine is simply too small of a country to actually win a war against Russia, all that these aid packages are doing is prolonging the war that Ukraine cannot win.

It's like saying "if only Germany had it would've won WWII". At some point they were going to run out of men anyway (they did). Sort of like how Ukraine will eventually run out of men if they continue.



Ukraine just recently got at parity in artillery with russia, which is why they are pushing this ceasefire and this is why Zelenskyy is walking away from it just like that.


There is a pretty good chance this set off the countdown to a war in Asia. Japan, SK, Taiwan, Philippines..... now KNOW that they cant rely on the US as an ally which means their only chance against Chinese hegemony is a nuclear weapon. Given that that will take some years while a weak US president is at the helm this is the window for China to invade Taiwan.


The USA is such an embarrasing country. Zero dignity left. It's all coming down now.


"The US is not a nation it is an economic zone." [—4/pol/489562208]

Act accordingly.



I’m not familiar with this type of masterful deal making.


This is a time to boycott all of the president's Elon enterprises. I just cancelled my Tesla solar installation in California. If you are thinking about buying a Tesla - don't. Also do not vandalize other peoples' Tesla.

If you are thinking about working in AI for x.ai or Tesla - do not. This will not look pretty on your resume.



I took a look at the mutual funds in my IRA last night. Most of the market index ones hold a lot of TSLA - it seemed to be in the top 5 holdings of several of the ones I have (had). I put in sell orders last night. Not just because TSLA, but because of all the chaos this administration is causing re tariffs and everything else. I'll hide out in treasury money market fund for a while.


Remember team america, world police...

How everyone in the world wanted usa to stay out of other countries 20 years ago...

https://youtu.be/LasrD6SZkZk?si=qbP5t6WNVY7hq0p9

Seams alot of people want to bring that back.



There was broad bi-partisan support for the first Gulf War (response to Iraq invading Kuwait) and the war in Afghanistan (response to 9/11).

The broader dissent started to come after the invasion of Iraq (based on the notion of Iraqi WMDs) and the lack of progress in Afghanistan or finding Bin Laden.

Foreign policy under different Presidents is often contradictory and as in any political context, the President usually has some base of support from their own party no matter how far off script they go, simply out of unity or fear of the alternative party benefiting from a lack of unity.

So while a coherent policy of “The US should intervene in all conflicts or no conflicts” would be intellectually consistent, the circumstances surrounding the conflict and the political environment lead to inconsistencies.



Usually we keep the mainstream news out of here but felt I had to post this one because I've never seen anything like it and was curious to hear other people's perspective here.

To me it feels like a setup to look good in front of their audience without any proper desire to engage in true diplomacy.



Some of the stuff I've had to deal with building business to $100MM++++++ revenue give me stress and anxiety. I've been through so much shit at this point I think it's hard to stress me out. Watching that interaction between the 3 of them invoked a feeling I've not felt in a very long time, it was incredibly stressful. That was neither politics nor business, personally I'd have accepted either, but that was not those.


How many millions of workers endure endless shit and disrespect from their boss, but they get the job done anyway for the benefit of their families?

How many business leaders, like you, let slide so much shit and instead focused on what was important for their business?

Even if Trump and Vance were disrespected, suck it up like the rest of us and do the thing that benefits the entire country. They met to make a deal to benefit the country; Trump failed to make the deal.



That assumes that any amount of capitulation would have persuaded Trump to support Ukraine, and that any reasonable deal could have been reached. I obviously can't say what could have been, but every sign Trump (and those in his administration!) has given up to this point indicate that there's only one outcome they support, and that's Ukraine surrendering all or some of its land to Russia, along with a deal barring Ukraine from NATO.


it's not even about support, Trump wanted to extort Ukraine out of their resources without giving anything back. He failed to do so.


I'm very curious to see how this comment ends up ageing. saved for follow up ;)

My prediction is ukraines got three options;

-Show europe that the US is an unreliable trading partner, and get them to commit atleast $500B, with SF troops coming to ukraine to train their troops. - Make a deal with trump. - lose their country.



Yes, and that's also the only outcome Russia would accept, unless Putin is replaced by a US puppet, which seems unlikely; such a puppet would be deeply unpopular in Russia and have great difficulty remaining in power.

The people in Crimea, Donetsk, and Luhansk would also reject any deal that doesn't involve Ukraine surrendering some of its land, either to Russia or to some sort of Republic of Texas limbo-state. So, even if Russia were taken over by a CIA asset, fighting there would continue unless extremely repressive measures were taken.

So that sort of deal is the only way to end the fighting with anything resembling humanity, even though Trump supports it. Stopped clocks, etc.



Isn’t Zelensky the worker who is getting disrespect from their boss? Seems like the roles are reversed.


I can understand, but honestly it was a mistake. I just scrolled down to get here, and there are no curious perspectives being shared or interesting questions being asked, just the entirely understandable and expected mass anger and frustration.

In an ideal world we could have a threat or two like this that would serve as outlets, but what I've actually seen is that having these discussions leads to them bleeding out into other threads that should have been unrelated. HN is going to need to more aggressively enforce its rules about political news if it's going to stay a haven for curiosity and not descend into just another place for angry politics.



Whether we like it or not, politics pervades everything. Attempting to keep certain forums sanitized and "apolitical" while a regime shift is occurring and people's civil liberties face very real threats is to live in an amoral and ahistorical fashion.

Desperate times...



I have found myself lately to feel indifferent to many threads on HN that would otherwise have exicted me because of the insane world politics events which were occuring simulatenously but without mention. There is an intelligent crowd here, and important topics ought to be discussed, not just the latest hacker news.


I think a lot of people in tech unintentionally blind themselves to reality by obsessing over technology, and then thinking that is all that matters. It’s a behavior that is incentivized because it helps those with power utilize the tech-blind’s skills for their bidding.


spot on. I am continually shocked by the number of people I work with who will actively contribute to ends that are ultimately against their own best interests just because they are intrigued by the technical aspects of a problem


I disagree. There are lots of interesting things happening in the world, and the HN crowd does a good job talking about them. Those topics—the ones where HN has high quality conversation—are why I come to HN.

Since the inauguration the HN crowd has not done a good job talking about politics. Where we used to be able to have some of the best discussions and comments on political issues I've seen on the internet, the last month or two has consisted primarily of hot takes and aggression, and I can get my dose of that anywhere else, I don't need it here.



Flagging those comments is a small way everyone can help.


Hard to do when there are more than three thousand of them here.


The crowd isn't some invariant. The people here and quality of their responses is a function of the kind of topics that get discussed here, the repetition these topics receive, and the grace others have in receiving those comments. You can't just neatly swap in the HN community and say "okay you used to discuss Elixr tooling now it's time to discuss US politics."

What happens instead is, people start getting heated at each other and vitriol across the site increases. Folks who don't find that grace anymore exit the site and folks who are heated stay. This attracts other people who want to be heated. This creates a downward spiral across the community. This isn't HN specific, it's the same thing that happened to pretty much every other public internet community once they started featuring lots of discussion on polarizing politics.

The entire reason HN used to be high quality open internet forum is because politics wasn't a huge part of its contents. But the site has been under quality pressure for some time now and ever since the start of Trump 2024 it's started going downhill faster than it was before. That's fine of course, if folks just want to battle out politics and shout at each other or cry out in anger they can go ahead. But it won't be the "intelligent crowd here" doing it. Those folks will go elsewhere.

As an example, this thread is ridiculously large (2818 comments as of this writing.) There is no way for a reader to get much out of this without copious amounts of minimizing threads, scrolling randomly, or page-searching for terms. The only sense I can make of it is throwing the thread into Gemini and asking it to summarize it for me. The summary tells me nothing that my own thoughts and some social media comments I've read don't already tell me. So what has the "intelligent crowd here" really given us? I'm waiting for op-eds from the MSM and blog authors I follow to give me literally anything more rigorous than the slop in this thread.



> There is no way for a reader to get much out of this without copious amounts of minimizing threads, scrolling randomly, or page-searching for terms...

Or you could, you know, jump from parent to parent and actually read the threads that interest you. I wholly disagree with your broad assessment. I have seen plenty of substantive, interesting comments in threads like this. Of course there will be duds, but that's equally true in threads about the latest front end web framework.

Intelligence and outrage are not mutually exclusive. Again, the world is not an apolitical place. If you do not represent and speak up for your own values, someone else will decide your fate for you. This forum, like all others is a chance to signal boost and stand for the values you care about.

The moderators have also done a good job of keeping the volume of these threads reasonable. Sure, on the new page they are rampant, for good reason, but only one or two max make it to the top thirty on a given day.



Agree to disagree. Speaking up for your own values has nothing to do with winning elections. For that, voters in R districts need to call their reps and tell them their mind. Internet comments don't win win votes.


[flagged]



One problem, which I fear you might be falling into, is that people who find themselves in a minority position tend to get frustrated and then lash out at others in ways that break the rules (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html).

Then they get downvoted and flagged, quite correctly (because, by hypothesis, they're breaking the rules), and often get sucked into a positive feedback loop*, in which they get even more frustrated and start breaking the rules even worse. Eventually they decide that the entire community is against them and that they can never get a fair hearing.

This is a conundrum for moderation. I wrote a long post about this just a few months ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41948722, but maybe it's time for another.

The conundrum is as follows: on the one hand, we want and need commenters with minority views on HN (because it's better for the mandate of the site) and we try (in our limited way) to protect them from abuse by majorities. On the other hand, we can't make it ok for them to break the rules just because they're in a minority. If they keep it up, we have to ban them the same way we would ban others who do that—it's not as if the rules can change depending on demographics, opinions, and so on.

The only approach I know of that has a chance of working—not a big chance, but on occasion it has helped—is (1) to describe this dynamic to the commenter in your position, (2) acknowledge that there's a greater burden on people who are arguing for minority views, (3) acknowledge that this is unfair but also that it's inevitable, and then (4) try to persuade them (i.e. you in this case) that it's in your interest to scrupulously follow the rules, even when other commenters aren't doing that.

There are at least two reasons why this is in your interest, even though it's hard to do under pressure and unfair that minority commenters are under extra pressure to begin with.

The first reason is that it will make your comments a lot more persuasive to open-minded readers. There may not be many open-minded commenters on hot/divisive topics, but commenters are a small minority of readers. The more you fall into the trap of venting rage at other people's wrongness, the more you're going to lose the larger, silent audience who may be persuadable. Worse, in cases when your argument happens to be correct, you're going to end up discrediting the truth that you're arguing for—which is bad for everyone.

(I've been making this argument for a good 10 years: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8994691. Lots more at https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor....)

The second reason is that if you scrupulously follow the rules, such as by editing out all snark, name-calling, flamebait, and so on from your comments, then if other commenters respond to you by breaking the rules, moderators are in a much different position: we can reply and ask them not to do that without getting a "but what about what they did?" finger-pointing response. Or if we do get such a response, there's a lot more we can say.

There are a lot more past explanations here for anyone who wants more: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que....

* (I mean positive feedback in the sense of amplifying, of course. Not that what's being amplified is good.)



I highly respect your contributions to HN and your moderation work. Your post is thoughtful and well written.

It has been incredibly frustrating to witness multiple social networks fall victim to cult-like political ideologies over the years. Seeing that happen once again on HN is especially disheartening. Consider what has happened to Reddit over time—it used to be full of diverse perspectives, but now it has become a toxic, radical-left cult. The same dynamic appears to be unfolding here, and from what I can tell, it is worsening.

I realize I need to do better and avoid resorting to low-effort posts. I agree with what you've said, and I'm glad you're fighting the good fight.

It may be best for me to move on and find somewhere else to lurk—a place that has not yet fallen victim to this scourge.



How would you distinguish between what you csll TDS and sharing of opinions that are group of intelligent between collectively strongly agree on ...like the fact that Trump ran has run many scams throughout his life including Trump University.

Like how can some piece of negative information can be collectively held by a crowd without it being tds?



We just witnessed the fall of the US led international order and the end of its leadership of the free world. It’s interesting.


Can you explain how that changed from February 27 to February 28? I don’t see it.


It changed in the same way cheating on your wife changes the dynamic in a marriage. It ruins trust that may never be possible to restore.


I assure you your allies see it. What’s funny is what did the US give up its leadership of the free world for exactly? The price of eggs? It took the British Empire fighting two world wars to lose its place! The US is collapsing and the experiment has clearly failed.


Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. And this is a pivotal moment in US history, the moment where the world realizes the emperor has no clothes.


Agreed. These are potentially historic moments worthy of discussion amongst rational and educated folks.

Hopefully, however, these are not historic moments...



disagree. I’m here and not Reddit because I’m interested in the perspectives of people on this site and the information that is shared including on events as unprecedented and impactful as this one.


Can you point me to a comment on this thread that you found to be more substantive than what you'd find on a typical subreddit? I sure couldn't find one in the deluge of low quality hot takes, so if you have one I'd love to see it.


>and there are no curious perspectives being shared or interesting questions being aske

There is only one right perspective, and really no interesting questions to be asked. Please stop pretending otherwise.



I don't disagree (in that I can't think of one either), but that makes this a terrible subject for an HN thread. We have other forums for collectively bemoaning the state of the world, we don't need that to spread to here. It's poisoning other threads in a really toxic way.


Curiosity and interesting questions won't have any future in the trump world. So yes, this is very relevant to the HN community. Doing nothing is also a choice which has consequences.


Dismissing this event though when the toxicity is right there on display feels like a passive response for a community as active as HN.


Everything is like that with this guy. He looks at the world through the prism of old-fashioned network TV ratings. You saw that during the infamous COVID press briefings (the bleach and light ones), holding the bible after the paramilitary cleared the streets in Washington, D.C., when he stood on the balcony after he had COVID, etc., etc.

It's the same thing here — he literally said as much today[1].

As a worldview, that is incomprehensible to me (and I suspect most people), but it really does help understand the choices Donald Trump makes. The spectacle — the attention paid — is what matters to him. How it looks on TV is what matters. How it actually is, is secondary at best, but often irrelevant.

He does a lot of things that "don't make sense" until you think of it that way. That the executive of a country as powerful as the USA perceives the world this way, and makes instinctual decisions on this basis without any credible effort to reason through the possible consequences, is of course very alarming.

As a US citizen, I'll admit that the "gravitas" of the USA as the "leader of the free world" was always carefully stage-managed. Still, it's depressing to watch momentous and crucial international wartime negotiations degraded to this reality-TV/pro-wrestling level, and so swiftly, for the whole world to watch.

[1]: https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/5169464-trump-ze...



> To me it feels like a setup to look good in front of their audience without any proper desire to engage in true diplomacy.

If that's what it was, I don't think it worked. I think rather that Trump and Vance manufactured a conflict to use as pretense to do what they wanted to do in the first place, which was to cut off Ukraine from U.S. aid. Whether it flies with the American public generally is largely irrelevant to Trump at this point, as he's not constitutionally eligible to run for another term. (He might simply refuse to leave in 2028, but he doesn't need an election to do that.)



[flagged]



That's an interesting perspective, do you have some links to better video? My wife saw it live, but I watched a 4min video from the BBC and it certainly seemed as though a lot of the aggression was on the US side.


The Twitter responses to Leon’s post are shocking. I wonder if it’s mostly “folks left on Twitter” or “algorithm changes”


There’s no question in my mind that this went exactly as planned.


My feeling too. Now it gives the Trump administration the grounds to claim that they can’t work with this “warmonger” who doesn’t want peace.


Vance made it very clear to the rest of the GOP that Zelensky is an “enemy” now. He misleadingly accused Zelensky of “campaigning with the opposition” because he met with Harris before the election. (He met with Trump too)

That statement was a direct signal to the party to turn on Zelensky and to make him an object of partisan divide, and Lindsay Graham understood that crystal clearly and called for Zelensky to resign shortly after the meeting, not long after praising him.

After sleeping on it, it’s obvious now that this was all to redirect the blame for Trump’s failure to meet his promise to broker peace swiftly.



They don't have to pretend anymore when siding with Russia in every conceivable way, not that they have been doing a good job of that anyway.


Sitting US president siding with the RF. Truly unbelievable times.


This episode for sure would change some minds regarding our Mutual Defense Treaty with the US.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_Defense_Treaty_(United_...



In the UN resolution, US did not even dare "condemning" Moscow's actions and supporting Ukraine's territorial integrity. They did not even have to do anything but use words, a mere symbolic gesture. It is shameful.

https://www.npr.org/2025/02/24/g-s1-50473/un-ukraine-resolut...



I agree with this poster, you should watch the full video before forming opinions:

https://x.com/shaunmmaguire/status/1895606614302019688

(The full video is in the post)



But then you’d only get 1% of the comments.


Thanks for this it was very informative.


This is important and horrifying, and the BBC live coverage was one outrage after another.

But HN is still feeling the previous few days of HN outrages (which involve tech).

Are we going to have outrage fatigue, and let even more injustices slide? How do we manage that, and what is HN's place?





Goodbye to Americas standing in the world.

We don't have to suck up to the US any more



Ah yes because Europeans are known for “sucking up” to Americans. If the EU has such competent leadership, why can’t they handle this themselves? It’s not something that affects the average American


Of course we do. NATO spending commitments are all about buying lots of arms from America as the price of protection. The protection just left, we no longer need to pay our protection money.

The obvious sweetheart deals for US companies to operate tax free, no longer any need. The Visa and Mastercard tax, no longer any need. Following the US to all of its foreign adventures, no longer any need.

That is all going to affect the average American, but probably not as quickly as the self-harm tariffs.



This kind of thing makes the US look disorganised, unpredictable and ultimately weak.

China and Russia and many others will be very pleased.

I expect a number of military "provocatives" from China in particular in the coming months.





In the modern bizarre age we find ourselves in...

A comedian is clearly the best job on your resume if you want to apply for the job of president.

Certainly the experience dealing with hecklers, and a sharp wit, come in handy.





Unfortunately both WSJ and The Hill call their ~10 minute argument edit the "full video" on YT and most people won't see the full exchange.

The first thing Trump says in the official stream is that they've had their negotiation spats before and are stronger for it.



Limited coverage of earlier Friday morning meeting with Senators, https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/zelenskyy-meets-bipartisan-g... & https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvKW2XJxyW4

11:15 am Fri 28 tweet by Senator (D), "will not support a fake peace agreement": https://x.com/chrismurphyct/status/1895508100595204115



I've never felt this embarrassed to be an American in recent years. To all our foreign friends in computing, the majority of people in the US are not caricatures of POTUS and his sock puppet sidekick.


But about half of America did vote for this, and Trump isn’t doing what he said he’d do and what the world said he’d do.


Half of American voters voted for this, which is far less than half of Americans. I’m almost as disappointed in the people who didn’t vote as I am in the people who voted for this.




77 million people voted for Trump. The US has 340 million people. 22.6% of the US voted for this.


I don't think it's fair to include the entire population of the US in that total, even the 78 million children who can't vote. And people who didn't vote made their choice as well.

By that logic, no democracy in the world elects their leaders with a 50%+ majority, not even countries with mandatory voting laws like Australia or Belgium.



It's just a matter of fact that more than half of the US did not vote for this regime. You can object that more than half of the US did not vote for any president, and we would agree.


I don't think that's a meaningful distinction. In a purely technical sense, sure, not half of the human beings alive at the time voted for one candidate. That has never happened and will likely never happen in the US.

But in common parlance, it is acceptable to say that half the country voted for one or another candidate. It happens all the time:

https://thehill.com/opinion/4935813-trump-appeal-conservatis...

https://centerforpolitics.org/crystalball/how-the-other-half...

https://www.globalcitizen.org/en/content/voting-elections-de...



Just because it's common parlance does not mean it's a good practice. HN is supposed to be a forum for reasoned discussion. Any kind of sophistry or propaganda should be called out. Since Trump describes his regime as having an "unprecedented and powerful mandate", and this is actually incorrect in several ways, it is worth drawing the distinction here.

Another way in which Trump is incorrect is that his election victory margin is average among presidential elections in terms of both electoral vote margin and popular vote margin.



I only see the hill article using that parlance. I looked at the articles the hill certainly says half the country voted for Trump. It is an opinion piece you linked to though not a news piece.

The center for politics and global citizen articles do not seem to use half that way though.

For center for politics the title starts with "How the Other Half Votes" and they seem to keep to that usage and never use half of USA/America.

For Global Citizen the title starts with "Half the Planet Will Vote This Year" an they seem to stick to that and never use half of USA/America



I intentionally linked to variations on that wording to show there's a pattern. If you're looking for those exact words, you can find plenty more examples online.


I do not see the pattern you are seeing. What I would need to change my mind here are communities using the parlance correctly, understanding the meaning, and it not leading to misunderstandings to a reasonable percent of the community.


I don't think I understand what you're not understanding, so I'm afraid I won't be able to change your mind.




262m is the estimate for the "Population of Voting Age for Each State and the District of Columbia". Not all of these are voters, and only malicious thinking could lead to the conclusion that these people are all happy (or unhappy) with Trump.


What is being objected to is:

> But about half of America did vote for this

So it is fair to include the full population of America.

> By that logic, no democracy in the world elects their leaders with a 50%+ majority

Leaders are often elected by plurality, meaning less then 50% of the voters, but the winer still has the largest number of votes[1]. Trump did not win the majority according the sources I have[2]. 'Majority' is often used as a replacement for plurality in everyday speech, but sometimes you need to get into the nitty gritty details and need the more precise definitions.

[1] https://www.dictionary.com/e/majority-vs-plurality/

[2]

https://www.cnn.com/election/2024/results/president?election...

https://apnews.com/projects/election-results-2024/?office=P

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_United_States_presidentia...



This is nitpicking. When people say that half the country voted for X, it is implied they are referring to voters, not infants. You don't need to be more precise than that. Just like if I say "everyone I hang out with prefers wine over beer", I don't include my 2-year-old nephew or my cat, both of whom I hang out with regularly.


> When people say that half the country voted for X, it is implied they are referring to voters

In this case it is a very large difference and it is important to keep it in mind, even if starting with 340 million is not the best place to start.

Google tells me the adult population of the USA is ~260 million, so 260 - 77.3 = 182.7 and 182.7/260 ~0.7. So ~70% of the adult population did not vote for Trump. It is part of Trump's job as president to represent and serve that 70%. It is also part of Trump's job to represent and serve the minority of adults who voted him into office too.

I have talked to many people over the years that did not know so few people voted or the difference between majority and plurality. These sort of details can and do lead to misunderstandings, that unfortunately, can and do waste considerable time.



If you could vote and didn't vote for Kamala then you're the problem. You helped Trump into the White House and own this.


So fewer than 1 in 4 Americans actually did something to stop this from happening?


>the majority of people in the US are not caricatures of POTUS

It's so sad that an evil magician has hypnotized so many Americans into voting for Trump. Thank you for reminding us how the majority would have voted if they hadn't been hypnotized.



As an American it pains me how well put this is


I don't understand why you assume your foreign friends in computing are not in favor of... eh, whatever you are "embarrassed by". And whatever it is, the (small) majority of people in the USA voted for it, so your statement simply means you are so invested in your own religion that you are willing to fool yourself into thinking "nearly everybody" is, not just every second guy. Which surely seems like "nearly everybody", if you don't want to consider their point of view has as much merit as your own.

If anything, I expected HN crowd to be one-sided, but not that one sided. All these laments in this topic are kinda crazy to read, honestly.



[flagged]



Why don’t you tell us what you think is wrong with our perspective instead of lazily painting us all with the same coarse brush?


It’s quite simple: Trump wants peace. Zelensky is in the position of the beggar and was disrespectful. Zelensky should accept a ceasefire and work toward peace and the US should stop giving them money and resources immediately.

And the reason for my meta comment about HN is because honestly I’m dismayed and disappointed with what this place has turned into. There is only room for one opinion now. And sadly, peace is not the opinion. “Trump want peace. Trump bad. Peace bad.”



What, exactly, was disrespectful? When considering your answer, what makes Zelensky’s behavior different from anyone else’s who wished to plead their case to the American people, which has been done throughout history without incurring similar drama and blowback?

Why should the U.S. stop aiding Ukraine?

What do you think about Trump’s attitude being like that of Neville Chamberlain, who mistakenly believed that appeasement (note that “peace” is a root word) would stop Germany from further territorial invasions?

And finally, do you believe Trump’s and Vance’s behavior was appropriate for their appointed roles (as leaders and heads of state)? When considering your answer, if you had children, would you be proud of them if they behaved this way?



> Why should the U.S. stop aiding Ukraine?

First and foremost, I don’t want war. I don’t want to contribute weapons to send people to die pointlessly.

Second, even if you’re pro war, the United States has crumbling infrastructure, massive debt, and plenty of people who have paid taxes that themselves need help. We are not in a position to be pouring billions of dollars to non citizens at this point in time.

> who mistakenly believed that appeasement (note that “peace” is a root word) would stop Germany from further territorial invasions?

I don’t think you can point to that story and automatically prove that that’s what this is. Sure it’s a great lesson on what to watch for but it’s also a great story line for war hawks.

> do you believe Trump’s and Vance’s behavior was appropriate for their appointed roles (as leaders and heads of state)?

From the perspective of transparency, what more could you ask for? We saw passion for making a peace deal. But peace is not everybody’s priority.

This conflict has not been solved in decades of closed room talks. Why would anybody think that’s the way to keep going?



I don’t think your point of view is unreasonable, but I would also like to see folks like you admit that the episode was poorly handled (and that similar mishandling is happening all over) and embarrassing. I notice you didn’t answer all my questions and that seems evasive.


Ok for your other questions

Zelensky was disrespectful in many ways. He’s only still in this fight because of the US. He knew damn well why he was flown to Washington this time. Trump wants the ceasefire. He should be thankful for what he’s getting instead of confrontational. He is owed absolutely nothing.

> When considering your answer, if you had children, would you be proud of them if they behaved this way?

If they were genuinely wanting peace, yes. If it was theatrics with bad intent, no.



> Zelensky was disrespectful in many ways.

Exactly how? Did he spit in Trump’s face? Call his wife a strumpet? Or what?

The mere act of asking for help isn’t disrespectful. If your kids came to you and asked you for help, even though they knew you were disinclined, would that alone be “disrespectful”?

> He’s only still in this fight because of the US. He knew damn well why he was flown to Washington this time. Trump wants the ceasefire. He should be thankful for what he’s getting instead of confrontational. He is owed absolutely nothing.

The USA’s attitude has never to date been “we don’t consider favors to others because we owe them nothing; people to whom we don’t owe anything should kiss our ass.” Sure, nobody owes us anything in the way of foreign relations. We do things because it advances our interests. Trump, like you, clearly believes helping Ukraine doesn’t advance our interests. We may disagree on that, but our President certainly shouldn’t be a jerk when communicating that and constantly interrupt our guest while they’re trying to communicate. That’s disrespectful.

> If they were genuinely wanting peace, yes. If it was theatrics with bad intent, no.

I was talking about Trump’s and Vance’s behavior, not Zelensky’s.



> The mere act of asking for help isn’t disrespectful.

I agree but that’s not what happened. Watch the whole event, if you haven’t. Because snippets don’t do justice. And I’m not going to rewatch it just to reply to you. But you’re really misrepresenting what went down. It’s fine if we disagree over what is disrespectful. But I think you can at least admit, if you watch the whole thing, how his behavior can be interpreted that way even if you personally don’t think it merited the response it got.



I want to circle back to the beginning of this conversation, in which you claimed that HNers are all of one mind and that we'll downvote a contrary opinion because we're all just reflexively anti-Trump.

This sort of reply is why you're getting downvoted: Making an argument based on emotion and characterization of others without evidence.

Persuasion is the burden of the claimant. If you believe Zelensky was being disrespectful and merited the President's and VP's response, that is your case to make, clearly, logically, and with reference to the source material. That's Debate 101. It's not your opponents' duty to prove a negative.

I believe that you and folks like you don't want war, and that's in good faith. I don't think anyone really wants war. I think the question comes down to what we're willing to sacrifice to avoid it. This is a totally reasonable argument to have, but we don't have to publicly demean and dress down other heads of state, especially those who are our guests, in the process.



> Second, even if you’re pro war, the United States has crumbling infrastructure, massive debt, and plenty of people who have paid taxes that themselves need help. We are not in a position to be pouring billions of dollars to non citizens at this point in time.

This administration is not actually addressing any of this btw. It isn't even clear that the billions of dollars "saved" from withdrawing support from Ukraine would even go to infrastructure, debt, or helping people. In fact, just the opposite, because the administration is slashing the exact programs for people who need help (laying off suicide hotline workers at the VA).



Should have felt embarrassed about Nuland and Blinken. This is the fall-out.


It's actually possible to be embarassed for both.


You don't speak for all or even most Americans. A majority of US voters selected Donald Trump as their President. I'm pleased with the President's pushback on the disrespectful, high-pressure bargaining tactics Zelensky tried to use today in front of the press at the White House.


Under half of voters selected him - roughly a quarter of the population - and many of them claim to have done so on the basis of the policy positions he made during the campaign which have been reversed (Canada, Gaza, Ukraine, Project 2025, etc.).


49% is a plurality, not a majority.


You're right, he won 49.7% of the popular vote compared to Kamala Harris' 48.4%. Many states like Arizona and California took weeks to finish counting and I had not checked the final numbers.

If you're curious how most Americans feel now, you can read about Trump's approval ratings here; currently his poll results are net-favorable:

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/approval/donald-t...



Takes a while for buyer's remorse to fully set in.


Yes, it hasn't been long enough for any real effects to start being felt, even though it's felt like an eternity.


That does seem to be home Americans feel now.

Bit I would like to point out that it took about 9 months for Biden's approval/disapproval rating to be around equal[1].

In contrast, it has taken Trump about 1 month to do the same[2].

[1] https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/approval/joe-bide...

[2] https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/approval/donald-t...



Do you not see the incredible irony accusing Zelenskyy of "disrespectful, high-pressure bargaining tactics"??

His country has been under attack by an authoritarian government for YEARS, and the problem is that he's not "respectful enough" for you? What happened to "facts don't care about your feelings"?



It's "facts don't care about your feelings". As the originator of the quote shows himself, his feelings are still very important and must be cared for.


Yes, that's right. I'm an American, and neither you nor the government of Ukraine nor any government aside from the one in Washington, D.C. are entitled to my blood and treasure.


I'm an American too. What are you on about?


Votes.


What does this have to do with the fact that Trump and Co are complaining about their hurt feelings while pretending they were the party that valued facts over feelings?

The fact is, this problem is proving a lot harder to solve than just "get a deal done" like Trump and Co promised us



It's easy to solve once you realize that the US has no strategic interest in Ukraine.


Solve it then. Tell us what should be done?


Well once you have that realization, you can go for a long walk after supper and get a good night's sleep.


I was genuinely curious. Wish you took this seriously and didn't just troll this forum


And I am being totally serious. Wish you didn't project inaccurate moral assumptions on this conversation.


He won by plurality, not majority.


Trump behaved like a petulant fool. If you don't know it, let me tell you, every foreign government on the planet and their diplomatic corps knows it. Shouting over someone speaking your language at a public meeting was such a god damned embarrassment for the country. A total lack of decorum, a total lack of diplomacy, a total lack of understanding or control of themselves or the situation. He's not fit to run a McDonalds.


> the disrespectful, high-pressure bargaining tactics Zelensky tried to use today

Such as? All I heard was him asking how an agreement or deal would help when the history of Ukraine-Russia deals has always ended up with Ukraine being invaded more



Why couldn't what Zelensky did be equally described as "appealing to the American people"? After all, aren't we a democracy? The President is supposed to represent us, and thus be receptive to such appeals. If it so happens that the appeal persuades Americans, the President should follow suit.

Dissuading and choking off appeals to the people suggests to me that the President is highly insecure in his position. People in secure positions don't get offended or upset when people appeal to their bosses (i.e., us).



Calling the recently-elected Vice President of the United States "bitch" in Russian, on camera, in the White House, was probably not the right way to appeal to the American people.

https://x.com/MyLordBebo/status/1895555421269868776



I've read it was more like cursing at a situation, not calling someone a name. As if I said "son of a bitch" when reading comments that defend Russia and attack Ukraine.


Would it have been okay to call Vance a weird childless cat lady?


For a foreign head of state in the White House on a state visit sitting next to the President in front of cameras, you mean? Or did you mean someone else in an entirely different context?


You’re grasping at straws, I’m afraid. (Even if he did mutter it under his breath, by then, the boorish behavior by Vance and the President was well under way.)

Can you kindly answer the question presented? When—before this testy tirade began—was Zelensky disrespectful, and how? When considering your answer, what makes Zelensky’s behavior different from anyone else’s who wished to plead their case to the American people, which has been done throughout history without incurring similar drama and blowback?



What in the heck are you on about? "I'm talking about the kind of diplomacy that will end the destruction in your country" was what our VP said to kick off the spat.

"high-pressure bargaining tactics," get that terrible characterization out of here. Zelensky didn't kiss the ring and our representatives acted like little baby children when he corrected them gently on the actual history of diplomacy in that region since 2014.

You are denigrating anyone who has ever made a sacrifice to the USA if you think this extortive BS is appropriate American diplomacy, and you should be ashamed. You need to do better.



> WTF are you talking about?

> get the fuck out of here

> You are pissing on anyone

Whoa—swipes like this will get you banned here, regardless of how wrong someone is or you feel they are. Please don't post any more of this. Your comment would have been just fine without it. (Well, that and the "little baby bitches".)

If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, that would be good. I don't want to ban you and we've had to ask you this before.



sanitized sir


I appreciate the response! However it looks like I didn't explain the point clearly. I'll try again. (sorry, this is going to be kind of long...)

The problem isn't profanity and the solution isn't sanitization. Rather, the problem is crossing into pejoratives and/or name-calling and/or being aggressive to other commenters. And the solution is to edit all that out.

When you make edits like these:

WTF are you talking about? -> What in the heck are you on about?

get the fuck out of here -> get that terrible characterization out of here

You are pissing on anyone -> You are denigrating anyone

... you've sanitized the profanity, but your comment is still pejorative and swipey in the way the site guidelines are asking you (not you personally, of course! I mean all of us) to avoid.

Also, I totally missed this in the original post—this is another one:

> you should be ashamed. You need to do better.

The way to follow the site guidelines is to edit out swipes and take out pejoratives (especially personal ones). There are lots of ways to do that, but in case it's helpful, here's one:

  "I'm talking about the kind of diplomacy that will end the destruction in your country" was what our VP said to kick off the spat.

  "High-pressure bargaining tactics" is not accurate. Zelensky didn't kiss the ring and our representatives reacted angrily when he corrected them gently on the actual history of diplomacy in that region since 2014.

  That is extortive, not appropriate American diplomacy.
I don't mean to tell you how to edit your own post! I just thought a concrete example might be helpful. In any case, if you'd posted that or anything similar, I wouldn't have responded with a mod reply.

A nice side effect of doing this kind of editing is that it makes your comments more persuasive, by both polishing and sharpening your argument.



I'll go through the guidelines again, obviously I hadn't yet since my edits. Your house, your rules and I'll try to make sure to depersonalize my displeasure in the future.

Thanks for the example, I appreciate it!



The good news: depersonalizing is more than half of the challenge. The bad news: it's way easier to come across as personally pejorative than one imagines. (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...)

In any case, thanks for hearing me out with such patience—if it were always this easy, I'd...have more free time!



roger that


well then i’m even more ashamed of my country lol. high pressure?

JD vance calling the guest out for being disrespectful in front of the media. Trump not letting the guest talk at all. did we watch the same video? Hilarious take.



I watched the whole thing. I suppose you saw what you wanted to see.


[flagged]



Please don't do this here.


Dang, thanks for stepping in here, and as always, for the unseen work you do behind the scenes keeping the trolls at bay.

Regarding political posts since inauguration, can you explain this, because I am flumoxed:

- on the one hand, there's been a huge surge in clamoring about posts critical of the new administration being flagged

- on the other hand, when such posts have not been flagged, they have consistently and overwhelmingly been dominated by one-sided comments critical of the new administration, while the vast majority of counterargument comments become greyed out, and quite quickly.

- a large portion of that one-sided piling on shows utter disregard for the HN guidelines, esp.:

"Be kind. Don't be snarky. Converse curiously; don't cross-examine. Edit out swipes."

I grew up in East Germany, fwiw. The things I have pointed out here remind me more of the bad old days there than the spirit of independent inquiry, individualism and fairness that I associate with the best of America.



[flagged]



You can't attack another user like this here, regardless of how wrong someone is or you feel they are.

If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.



I have never in my entire life seen a better example of the "we have always been at war with Eastasia" phenomenon than the recent US switch from anti- to pro-Russia stance.


If you're one of the US allies in Asia, feeling threatened by China, what do you conclude from this?

This looks like a major strategic blunder.



I’m from the Philippines and there are already talks of concerns regarding our mutual defense treaty with the US.

Taiwan is just above us and for sure can be easily sucked into a war.



> concerns regarding our mutual defense treaty with the US

I'm curious: Is there now widespread concern, or is this mainly a partisan issue among Filipino politicians? Are there any Filipino media reports discussing this issue that you'd recommend to me?



Concerns are not public but I am basing this on popular Filipino forums and Facebook groups which is very pro-US. I mean majority of us our very pro-US.

Filipino media is not that great here, it sucks but I can't remember an opinion piece recommending we nuke up until this article below.

https://usa.inquirer.net/167208/with-trumps-new-world-order-...



At this point, it seems like considering yourself a "US ally" is a strategic blunder. There's no reason to expect any sort of loyalty based on shared interests or collective security; I don't even think it's purely transaction at this point, because the entire pretense of the meeting with Zelensky was a demand for an absolutely absurd deal on mineral rights[0]. US foreign policy seems to be just as much about ego as anything else, and if you're not sufficiently deferential, it doesn't matter what you bring to the table.

[0]: $500 billion in minerals, which is around seven times the value of all of the aid given to Ukraine so far: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/feb/20/stop-criticisi...



From Wikipedia. Just as a cliched reminder:

> In 1994, Ukraine agreed to transfer these weapons to Russia for dismantlement and became a party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, in exchange for economic compensation and security assurances from Russia, the United States, United Kingdom and France to respect the Ukrainian independence and sovereignty in the existing borders. Years later, Russia, one of the parties to the agreement, invaded Ukraine.

I live in the upper part of India and I suspect I could have been taking forced Chinese lessons right now if a woman, decades ago, who was called a bitch by a US secretary of state, didn't decide to say 'fuck it!' and went ahead with her plans to have our own modest nukes.

Would this world have been better off if no one had nukes? Of course, yes. I do believe so.

Would we (the world; not just India) have been better off with just USA, Russia, France, UK, China having nukes? Fuck no!!!

And I have a foreboding feeling the list is not going to stop with Pakistan, NK, and that undeclared member of this club. Also, I just hope South Africa has no reasons in the future to regret.

And then: I mean - does anyone else not find the very fucking idea of NPT ridiculous? You can't have nukes, we have and we will keep having it? Why? Just because. Come, sign this now. Assurances? Yeah, maybe. What the actual fuck!



A couple other ripple effects that could shape the next decade with Americas new position

1. The nuclear deterrence of mutually assured destruction that’s been in place for half a century is no longer “assured” if the U.S. isn’t seen to be reliable. I have to imagine the second priority after upholding Ukraine is a European arms race, so that at least the sum of European warheads and delivery capabilities matches Russian ones.

2. There’s a fringe pro unification group in Taiwan that advocates for reunification with China on friendly rather than hostile terms. It will be seen if that group raises in prominence after these spectacles.



If the people of Taiwan still don't see that they're being used as a sacrificial lamb to slow down China's economic rise, maybe they'll see it now.


Shameful day for America where the President and VP two on one berate a visiting leader (guest even) who is fighting for his countries freedom against a totalitarian regime.


Absolutely heartbreaking. How many of the people arguing have seen any footage of the atrocities committed by Russia.

It is sobering to see women and children shelled in their homes and hospitals. 20 Days in Mariupol is free to watch on Youtube (Won the Academy Award for Best Documentary last year):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvAyykRvPBo



Public humiliation of an ally in distress.


And an ally that was stripped of nuclear weapons with security guarantees made at that time including by the US.

https://www.npr.org/2022/02/21/1082124528/ukraine-russia-put...



I don't normally comment on politics, but Trump and Vance's behavior was over the line. And your comment is salient. We can look forward to a period of nuclear proliferation among our allies since they cannot depend on the USA anymore. We are already seeing Germany seek out nukes; Canada will soon follow if it values its sovereignity. The fact that anyone with eyes could see this coming if Trump was elected again is of small comfort - they say that those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it, but those who know history are doomed to watch others repeat it. I have never been ashamed to be an American citizen until today. Zelenskyy is a courageous, heroic leader resisting a much more powerful, authoritarian agressor who hungers for the downfall of the West and all democratic societies. Z could have left Ukraine in the early days of the invasion but chose to stay and fight. Meanwhile Trump's "bone spurs" exempted him from service in Vietnam, and he disparages war heroes like McCain before and after his death. Lindsay Graham says "I've never been more proud of the President" and it's like walking out of Star Wars: A New Hope hearing half of the audience excited to see such a compelling new hero, Darth Vader. Insanity.


Not an ally any more. The US is now aligned with Russia against Europe. My brain struggles to truly accept that fact but my eyes see what are in front of them.


It’s baffling. That’s switch suits some people, but how many, hundreds?

The connection with Europe would appear to benefit millions of Americans.



Sadly it's the nature of (EDIT: the US system of) democracy, you don't get to pick and choose which parts of a candidate's agenda get enacted. Voted for Trump because of inflation, found the country in an alliance with Putin.

Very broadly I think the US has done a poor job explaining just how beneficial America's position in the world is to America itself. You see it reflected in the USAID stuff too. Soft power pays dividends in ways that aren't immediately apparent so when it's gone people just don't care all that much. It'll be interesting to see where this all lands 20 or so years from now and how the US public feels about it then.



This isn’t in the nature of democracy, it’s in the nature of winner-take-all FPTP presidential systems specifically.


Fair, I've updated my post. I'd argue it's not just FPTP presidential systems, though. Even in proportional representation you still only get one vote so you pick the candidate that's the best fit for you, you still don't get to pick and choose which parts of their agenda get enacted.


Yes, but different people will care more or less about different things and thus vote for different parties which all have to work together to form coalitions, which in theory then have to reflect a negotiated compromise among the different things that different people care about.

It’s not perfectly efficient, and it can suffer from the problem you’re describing, but far less severely than the US system does.



Well then thats „Volksabstimmungen“ as Switzerland has it for you.


By definition, it is impossible for a single winner contest like the Presidency to be proportionally elected. Proportionality matters for multi-member bodies like legislatures or parliaments. I.e. 20% of the vote nets 20% of the seats. Single winner contests can only represent at best, half or more of the population when working well.

Winner take all (one winner): FPTP, single member district ranked ballots

Proportional (multiple winners): Party lists, MMP, multi-member district ranked ballots (STV)



I don't think the US voting public is ready to see geopolitics from the realpolitik lens instead of the lens of idealism that has been instilled on them from elementary school onwards. Every major US geopolitical intervention has been sold to the voters through ideals like spreading democracy. It'll take a complete rethink of civics education before USians are actually ready to decide the government of the hegemon, both to claim what is theirs by might and to ensure that it's distributed fairly amongst them. I'm also not confident that I want the next generation to become realpolitik bastards before they graduate high school.


He was obviously not going to do anything about inflation despite what he said during his rallies. Actions speak more than words, especially when those words are inconsistent ramblings. We all saw what he did in his first term, and not a single policy decision was made out of concern for ordinary people. It's always about going after people or enriching the super-rich even further.


I've been thinking about this a lot lately, and I wish it was easier to explain this sort of thing to people. Most MAGA people look at any taxpayer money spent abroad, for any purpose, as a waste, when that money could be spent on US citizens locally.

Diplomacy and soft power is a complex, nuanced concept that can't be explained easily.



This is why it matters that the president just EXECUTES policy but does not decide the WHAT or HOW MUCH it or decide if it is JUST.

This brings a wider perspective, which is why what Elon is doing is so scary because it takes out that wider perspective



Matches reports that Reuters and AP were excluded from the meeting, while a TASS reporter was “accidentally” present in the Oval Office.


Ronald Reagan was obviously a RINO. /s

But in all seriousness, my bewilderment isn't so much that Reagan's stance against Russia was discarded (parties change over time, as well as the relationship between nations), but that it happened with zero pushback and zero discourse. The party leader said, with no explanation, "Our #1 enemy is now our ally" and the party simply said "But of course, no one should doubt this!"



I’m also bewildered.

For quite a long time (decades) Soviet Union/Russia was vilified like no other…

Heck, even the general public knew that Russia was the only country that could wipe us off the map with their nukes…

Current leaders grew up and were in the prime of their life during those times…



Ronald Reagan is a now a Democrat.


Ask yourself how many people will die as a result of this show of incompetence.

If you're interested in how a democracy should handle itself in such a situation, take a look at Justin Trudeau's recent speech pledging support for Ukraine.

Don't be a sucker. [^1]

[^1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGAqYNFQdZ4



[flagged]



@dang can we do something about this spam?


Ukraine is not a formal ally of the United States.


Reaction from Dmitry Medvedev a few minutes ago: "The insolent pig got a smack down in the White House"

Maybe the current administration can work more efficiently if Russia and the US have a single spokesman?



Pay no attention to him, he's being belligerent in an attempt to atone for his sins of promoting liberal policies 12-16 year ago. His rants really don't represent anyone or matter in any way.


His rants represent the view of the Kremlin, as well as those of the Oval Office in Washington.


Every day I feel more ashamed of my country. Especially because nothing that's happened since Trump returned to office is a surprise (including this): apparently the median US voter wanted this.

Horrible. I feel so badly for the Ukrainian people.



I think that the median US voter likely did not want this.

With two candidates and a variety of issues, you are very likely going to have to compromise on something. You can support Trump's immigration policy, DOGE efforts, and more; without thinking that the US should help Putin restore the Soviet Union.

Personally, I could not bring myself to vote for either of the presidential candidates. I only voted on the down ballot races.



Then you own this as much as someone who voted for it.

Abstention just buys you ownership of whatever happens, regardless of who wins.



People are wildly out of touch with where the far right is and how big of a movement it is.

Sure, maybe not 51% of the country wanted this. But I would be shocked if it's less than 38%.

That number is FAR too large.



> Personally, I could not bring myself to vote for either of the presidential candidates.

You really looked at both candidates and decided both were equally bad?



Yes. They are bad in very different ways.

Trump has no moral compass; and the only thing that matters is his ego.

Harris had domestic policy that I almost universally disagree with.

I did vote in the primary, but it didn't matter at that point because the only other option was Haley. I would have been enthusiastic about any other Republican primary candidate.



> I think that the median US voter likely did not want this.

I can't speak to the level of public support for Ukraine, though it seems most Trump supporters don't really care about Ukraine and want the US to stop spending money on foreign wars. Despite anecdotes about Trump voters being upset by executive branch cuts, polling suggests ~95% of Trump voters are ok with or actively pleased with his gutting of the government.

The median US voter does want this.

> Personally, I could not bring myself to vote for either of the presidential candidates.

Then you voted for Trump, in that case. If you can vote, and don't, then that's tacit approval of what voters choose.



Greenland and Gaza are just minor exceptions that confirm the rule, right.

There's one thing T cares about. T.

Zelenski said bad things about him to the dems. Noughty Zelenski, let's publicly humiliate him with the help of my dog V.



I didn't know Vance was that low-class.

Has he always been like that or is it something repulsive he's picking up from Trump?

He needs serious exposure to mature, cultured, well-mannered gentlemen and to get some pointers from honest, respectable US presidents and vice-presidents like he's getting none of now. Or he'll never reagin his former integrity, if he actually had enough to make a difference, it makes me wonder.



All aspects of Vance's personality expand and contract to fill whatever cause or purpose serves his personal interest. This is evident throughout his career.


Former integrity?

He got his start cosplaying as a former downtrodden redneck from the holler, when he’s from suburban Ohio.



I read 2/3 of his book when it came out and nothing pissed me off more than realizing exactly what you just said. His GRANDMOTHER was Appalachian. Not him. He's a fucking carpetbagger


vance may be the most unlikeable person i have ever heard speak. he just has no charisma and is constantly crying crocodile tears about the dumbest thing you've ever heard of.


>> But as Romney surveyed the crop of Republicans running for Senate in 2022, it was clear that more Hawleys were on their way. Perhaps most disconcerting was J. D. Vance, the Republican candidate in Ohio. “I don’t know that I can disrespect someone more than J. D. Vance,” Romney told me. They’d first met years earlier, after he read Vance’s best-selling memoir, Hillbilly Elegy. Romney was so impressed with the book that he hosted the author at his annual Park City summit in 2018. Vance, who grew up in a poor, dysfunctional family in Appalachia and went on to graduate from Yale Law School, had seemed bright and thoughtful, with interesting ideas about how Republicans could court the white working class without indulging in toxic Trumpism. Then, in 2021, Vance decided he wanted to run for Senate, and re­invented his entire persona overnight. Suddenly, he was railing against the “childless left” and denouncing Indigenous Peoples’ Day as a “fake holiday” and accusing Joe Biden of manufacturing the opioid crisis “to punish people who didn’t vote for him.” The speed of the MAGA makeover was jarring.

>> “I do wonder, how do you make that decision?” Romney mused to me as Vance was degrading himself on the campaign trail that summer. “How can you go over a line so stark as that—and for what?” Romney wished he could grab Vance by the shoulders and scream: This is not worth it! “It’s not like you’re going to be famous and powerful because you became a United States senator. It’s like, really? You sell yourself so cheap?” The prospect of having Vance in the caucus made Romney uncomfortable. “How do you sit next to him at lunch?”

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2023/11/mitt-ro...



It makes more sense when you understand he is an actor reading the script he is given. He cannot act independently and what he says has no relation to his actual opinions, if he even has any of his own. This is true for most of the GOP at this point. Exceptions include Romney.


Let’s not strip agency from these people. They didn’t magically end up in these positions, they actively worked for this shit.


They have used their agency to give up their agency to the GOP hivemind.


I too keep thinking of Romney as an exception but his voting record doesn't seem to bear that out. Mitch McConnell has voted against more of Trump's nominees than Romney.


When he went to visit Europe and gave his famous tirade, it was very telling he didn't meet with the German chancellor but met with the leader of AfD, you know, the guys with well proven neo nazi and fascist links. He's not interested in being a gentleman, we're playing a different kind of game now - game where they believe winner takes everything and goals justify the means.


JD is a big fan of Curtis Yarvin who popularized the idea that democracy must be overcome and be replaced by some kind of oligarchy.

This is what the global alt-right movement, which the AfD is a part of, wants.

They see democracy as a weak system and want to replace it by a kind of neo-feudalism.

It’s clear that Ukraine, that fights against the Russian version of that system, must be made to be an example than democracy can not win.



He did meet with the german chancellor, days prior to the meeting with Merz and not in Munich but in Paris.


Vance has always been an obsequious pillock.


He's a muckraker is James Donald.


he's just a small hillbilly boy from ohio


With eyeliner.


Everything Trump touches ... dies.

RIP Elon RIP Vance etc



These people got into bed with Trump of their own free will. Maybe there wasn't much to respect about them in the first place?


I can't see this as Vance acting without prior consultation and authorisation from Trump - its too serious a breach of protocol and tradition.

For that reason, this smells of a pre-planned ambush.



It's what America wanted. I've decided to stop caring. It's all a joke now. We'll try again in 44 months.


I don't think the minority of Americans who voted for him really thought about this situation.


And the mother that didn't check on her baby in the bath didn't mean for them to drown. In real life there's consequences for being negligent and careless.


This was explicitly predicted by Democrats and loudly expressed. Enlightened centrists insisted we were being hyperbolic.

Nobody has any right to claim surprise. If you couldn't see this coming, you are stupid, full stop.



If you take US eligible voters who did not vote, and put them on Trump's side of the vote tally, then he gets more than 50% of all eligible voters.

To me, staying home and not voting in an election is a silent vote for whoever the winner ends up being. These people soft-voted for Trump.



You're mistaken. This is no joke.


It's not what America wanted. It's what the felon-in-chief wants, but he doesn't represent most Americans.


That becomes harder to believe in light of the most recent electoral result where he won the popular vote. I do want to believe that he doesn't represent most Americans, however.


He won 49% of the votes cast. He did not get a majority, but a plurality. The turnout was ~64%, so he got ~30% of the possible votes. His main opponent got about ~28% of the possible votes.

He doesn't have the mandate he thinks he does, but he's a megalomaniac led by his nose ring by the psycopathic megalomaniacs behind Project 2025, which ~90% (more?) of Americans said that they didn't like when they saw it.



Sorry, but I don't think these percentages, turnouts, and other technicalities matter, at all.

This is how the American people has chosen to represent themselves. The American people created the system, and the Americans knew their own system. The system produced this guy.

Now, why does it matter which percentage did he get? He got enough, did not he? And obviously he does have the mandate, because he is able to do things his way.



All speculation and the non voters said: I do not care


It seems clear that non-MAGA people who voted for Trump did so because they believed his BS promises to make the economy better and fast, and secondarily because of the immigration issue. Most of them didn't think Trump would actually do all of the horrible things he and others said he was going to do.

And even then, he only barely won the election. It was the slimmest margin since the 1800s.



Not at all clear. Are voters really that stupid? Seems more likely there are more evil people around us than we expected, and they knowingly voted for evil.


There is precisely one way in which the will of the American people is measured. When we talk about "what America wants", it doesn't include the opinion of people who didn't show up in November. People who choose not to vote throw away their right to be included in the "what America wants" bucket. This shouldn't be a controversial statement.


Trump barely won the popular vote, so even ignoring the rest of the citizenry, it's a real stretch to say that he represents "the will of the people" in any significant way. At best, he represents "the will of half of the people who voted" -- and even that's a stretch, because a lot of the people who voted for him opposed his stance on most things.


I agree, but until you have large crowds doing a general strike, shutting major and minor cities, it's going to continue and observers abroad are going to conclude that the population is OK with it.


Stop. This is our president. This is our face to the world. By democratic vote. We can't weasel out of this. This IS who we are as a nation right now. Don't 'this isn't us' on HN. Do something in real life to change things so that this stops being us. But today, this is us. You and me.


Well, he won the popular vote.


It represents most Americans who voted.


That's not even factually correct. He won less than 50% of the popular vote.


But isn't the voting system wrong then?


I disagree entirely.


And yet, polling so far shows that 90+% of Trump voters are still fine with what he's been doing to the executive branch, and I expect most of those people don't particularly care about Ukraine or understand the nuances of diplomacy or soft power.


> I've decided to stop caring.

This is a problem because if you stop caring about Ukraine falling, you will start to care when Poland, baltic countries, etc., get overrun next. Zelenskyy wasn't joking when he mentioned American shores.



I'm tempted to join a monastery.


exactly the wrong instinct


Why? I can't do shit to stop Trump.


> It's what America wanted.

Yeah…

    Egg shortages.  
    Fatal measles outbreaks.
    Airplane crashes.
    Crypto scams.
    Tariffs.
    Betrayal of allies. 
    Pardons and special favors for insurrectionists, crooked mayors, and online pimps.
    The American people voted for change!
* https://twitter.com/davidfrum/status/1895150416738033992


• 77,302,580 voted for this administration (49.8%)

• 77,935,722 voted against this administration (50.2%)

With an estimated population of 341M, there were approximately 90M people who were eligible to vote (over 18, and not prevented from voting from a conviction) that did not vote.

The American people DO NOT support Trump. He only won due to voter suppression and a massive amount of ad money.

From https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43191410





I don't think we can look at it that simply.

Of the voters who didn't vote for Trump or Harris, certainly some of them would have voted for Trump (or not voted at all) if their third-party candidate didn't exist. Put another way, if we had universal approval or ranked-choice voting, it's plausible that Trump would have ended up with a popular vote majority (but it could have gone either way, certainly).

> there were approximately 90M people who were eligible to vote that did not vote.*

Whenever an election is decided, I generally move all of those uncast votes over to the tally of whoever won. Staying home and not voting is the same thing as a soft-vote for whoever wins.

> voter suppression

I wish we could really quantify this. Not that it would change MAGA minds about anything, but it could be useful to know.

> a massive amount of ad money

Harris had a similarly massive amount of ad money, too, and it didn't help.

Honestly, I think the failures of the Democratic party machine as a whole are just as responsible for Harris's loss as GOP underhandedness is.



You said I was looking at simply. I reported the election results. The majority of the voters did not vote for this administration.

> Democratic party machine as a whole are just as responsible for Harris's loss as GOP underhandedness is.

This we agree on.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/elon-musk-spent-290-million-2...

It isn't just the money, but whom it benefits. Someone almost no discretionary income, 100 or 300 is a ton of money. Musk won't even notice the 290M.



Just because I didn't vote does not mean my vote was "suppressed".


It is a statistical measure, did I say your vote was suppressed?




This is just an article where Wikipedia editors cry about the election. There's not even any real allegations of voter suppression in here. If the Republican party is suppressing voters, they are doing a pretty poor job of it in light of record turnout, and probably to their detriment.


I don't think that is why he won.

Dems basically handed this election to Trump; Biden running when he had memory issues, then handing it to Harris whose numbers were questionable against Trump(with the braindead excuse that only she could get the funds), along with generally not responding to issues voters obviously care about(border), trying to ignore issues like excessive wokeness/DEI instead of admitting it is a problem.

Trump is going to lie and obviously only cares about himself, some % of rubes will vote for that, but you don't have to make it so damn easy for him.



Once Biden waited so long to fact reality and drop out, there was no time for a proper primary. The mistake was not really the handing of it to Harris, it was dropping out so late that there wasn’t really any better option.


Also he was basically AWOL for months beforehand while Trump was campaigning. Trump’s economic plan was absurd but he was out there talking about it without any real pushback, while Biden seemed to be hoping that people would recognize how the IRA had helped them on their own. Harris might not have been the best candidate but I’m not sure anyone other than Obama could’ve gotten a national coalition together in that short a time – it’s like putting off studying for months and trying to pull an all-nighter before the exam.


Peace for Our Time, the sequel, by Trump and Vance.


"Peace for Our Time"/Chamberlain was at least motivated by a genuine (albeit naive) desire for peace. This is much worse insofar as motivations are concerned.


The quality of this version lies in how much more profit Trump and his backers can get from their POV and in not using tax money for weapons that can instead go to tax breaks for his pals, they are only interested in peace in the USA, the rest of the world be damned.


It would be closer if there had been newsreel footage of Neville Chamberlain barking "Say Uncle! Say Uncle!' at Edvard Beneš.


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I don't know what you think this is about "deal making" this whole show is unique as far as white house visits go, this is no some usual process....

Attempted humiliation and bullying does not make for a good deals as far as I've seen.



What an embarrassing and shameful take. Truly breathtaking.


I disagree with you, but you are making a falsifiable prediction. Lets check in two weeks. If it turns out your claim was incorrect, do you plan to update the world that lead to this conclusion?


Trying to follow up with people's absurd claims here is generally considered harassment, so I find it unlikely we'll get something from your parent comment.


It appears Zelenskyy left without doing any deal and skipping the usual press conference, so I think the prediction has already been falsified.


Perhaps (hopefully) you are right and its just bread and circuses for us. They really are playing 6D chess and it's really about just being irrational, art of the deal style.

Perhaps related to the discussion:

The Scientific Art of Negotiating with a Possibly Irrational Opponent by William Spaniel

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGO1gvNgG6k



There's probably also a case where Putin needs to be in a position to save face in order not to be overthrown - which could be even more dangerous.

On the other hand this might all just be trying to pretend there's a coherent strategy when its all just actually chaos.



You're right that it's theater, in the sense that the deal is already struck. But Zelensky's anger is real, because Trump's deal is---and always has been, since before the Russian invasion---the surrender of Ukraine to Vladimir Putin. Zelensky understands that he's going to be forced out of office and a Russian puppet will be installed in his place. He is understandably frustrated and angry, and is at least looking for ways to cost Trump as much as he can on the way out the door.

If you doubt any of this, then as you say, watch and learn.



The betrayal of Ukraine by the American people will be a stain on their history forever. Americans just don’t really understand what is happening.


To be fair, we have Japanese internment camps, slavery, the Trail of Tears, and several others. I'm not sure if this one is going to rank all that highly on the leaderboard.


I think many understand what is happening, but what can Americans do about it? Posting online and attended protests are not going to move the needle much. What I fear most is that violence might be the only solution, but I would love nothing more than to be wrong.


A general strike is the only non-violent solution. Of course people aren't likely to do that over Ukraine policy, but there are plenty of other things people are annoyed about domestically.


I do not see a general strike happening. It'd be great, but us cats are too fat right now. What I mean is that people are living too good on average. I think we are still in the 'crabs in a bucket' phase. So, I think if a general strike was organized, then many people would opt out because of selfish, albeit legitimate reasons, like not wanting to lose their source of income.

I am probably somewhat guilty myself, but I think a lot of people want someone or some group of people to take action on their behalf. Sadly, that is unlikely to happen.



Most Americans understand and oppose Trump's surrender deal. Unfortunately a significant number of them weren't paying much attention this past November and were conned into voting for the present predicament.


The EU has a substantially larger population than the USA, and for now at least, is adamantly opposed to the outcome you describe.

That might be what Trump and Putin want, but they are not the only interested parties here, and Trump is certainly succeeding at waking whatever beast-like qualities the EU/NATO may have left somewhat hidden in the recent past.



Unless the EU can substantially step up its military aid, that's the outcome they're going to get. There is one card that Zelensky and Europe could play, and that's European peacekeepers guaranteeing security. But that's boots-on-the-ground, and I'm not sure Europe has the stomach for that.


The body languages of Zelensky and Trump are fascinating to look at. You can clearly see that Zelensky is not playing. Also Marco Rubio, drowning more and more on his chair.


Russia feels like its getting a good deal because its everything Russia wants. Trump behaving like a baby in front of the world is just a bonus.


Getting everything they want? Go do some research on what this has cost Russia - its the biggest catastrophe for Russia, possibly ever. They will never recover due to demographic & energy realignment pressure. Try to think ahead.


Their demographic collapse was happening anyway. This made it worse, but they may have already just been resigned to that. I think that's also what made them desperate.

The cost to Russia has been steep, but I think Russia is walking away from this feeling good. Russia's borders are vast and undefendable so they view it as existentially important to control their bordering states as buffers. When one of them flirts with joining NATO they view it with almost the seriousness with which the USA would view, I don't know, California flirting with becoming a part of China.



Its only a catastrophe if they didn't get Ukraine. If they have compromised the sitting US president and get Ukraine they will write history books forever in Russia about how they defeated a super power, expanded the county, with a shit army and Internet trolls.


Ah trump and vance playing the 4D chess no one else knows about.

Why does Russia care if US are being tough on Ukraine? POTUS can issue an EO saying all fundings are cut and not be an asshole about it. If the US wants to be isolated from the war, they can do it without insulting Zelenskyy or trying to get a mineral deal done.



Ah... A student of the clown school of negotiating where bluster, threats, and tantrums take the place of compromise.

Here's the real deal: Trump is a Russian asset, and it is already a foregone conclusion that Ukraine is getting fucked. This is just theatre so he can pin the whole thing on Zelensky.



I mean... I hope so? Nothing I've seen so far suggests anyone is playing 3d chess, but if this turns out to be true, then I'll give full credit.


Any attempt to pretend Trump knows the concept of Chess, fails the moment you remember he nominated Matt Gaetz for Attorney General.


I don't know if it's 6D chess but it probably was more of a chaos monkey/bury the lead strategy that doesn't take much brain power (i.e. flood the zone).

My hot take is Matt Gaetz, the Greenland purchase and the Canada as the 51st state were all distraction techniques to get the other nominees through.



Alas the person who got the AG slot after Gaetz dropped is just as willing to be a corrupt official personally loyal to Trump. Just without Gaetz' baggage.


I find the idea of Trump playing "3D/4D/5D/6D chess" frankly hilarious. Hell, the man probably can't even play 2D chess. I honestly doubt he even has the patience to learn the rules. He's the kind of person who would get checkmated in 4 moves, flip the opponent's king over, claim victory, and walk away bragging about his genius victory.


What am I supposed to learn from this exchange? You imply that you understand how to negotiate, so maybe you can enlighten the rest of us as to how Trump and Vance are achieving a victory on behalf of US interests.


fsckboy, when answering mrtesthah’s question please remember that the best interests of Donald Trump do not align with the best interests of the United States.


> The deal is already made. After this show, they sign it...

You mean the deal Zelenskyy didn't sign prior to leaving? That one?

It's an awfully poor look trying to come off so confidently snarky when you don't even have your facts straight.

Edit:

>(somebody says something unique, from a different perspective in the middle of a circle jerk, and all the tossers lose their shit)

"Unique"? There are multiple responses highlighting that your facts are wrong. You're choosing to ignore those points and instead gripe about having a "unique" take?



Zelensky left the White House without signing the agreement.


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People fighting despots for their people's freedom should be welcomed and supported, not made to beg.


If this was actually believed, he would not have to leave his continent for support.


I don't know what that is supposed to mean, as far as I know he hasn't been asked to beg or been berated like this by any other nation but the United States.




Your suggestion is that European leaders don’t believe him, which would be counter to every public statement they’ve made.

He’s getting support from European nations. The US is capable of more support, hence asking for it. This isn’t complicated, I have to suspect you know all of this and are being disingenuous anyway, and I cannot fathom why.



You don't understand how the world works.


"European countries have provided €132 billion in aid (military, financial and humanitarian) as of December 2024, and the United States has provided €114 billion."

"List of military aid to Ukraine during the Russo-Ukrainian War" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_aid_to_Ukrain...



And most of that money is flowing back. If the US government buys American weapons and ships them to Ukraine, then the money circulates in the US and leads arms manufacturers to employ people.

With Russia at war with Ukraine, Europeans have turned to US fossil imports and funneling money back to the US.

The arms in Ukraine then hurt the Russian military and degrade it. So it is effectively spend to further American goals even then.

The mental gymnastics performed to make it seem like a loss of US taxpayer money is really insane.



This is a very shallow take


This is really sad


Exactly, Trump should have given him more $100 billion.


When did Zelensky's presidential term expired again?


They literally can't have an election until the war ends:

* millions of Ukrainians in the occupied territories * 1000km frontline that is extremely thin in places. should they pull troops off the line to vote, or run ballot boxes to the trenches? * their Constitution forbids it * the Russians will attack polling places, possibly killing hundreds

Britian didn't have an election for 10 years because of WWII, so it's not like it's unprecedented for a democracy to put elections on hold during an existential crisis.



When there is peace. Just as with Churchill. And most European leaders during WW2.

You can't hold free elections when you're not free.



They cannot have normal elections anyway, a bunch of people in occupied territories, not to mention soldiers in active duty who cannot leave their posts to vote. Whilst Putin is ruling since 2020 (except Medvedev term).


Come on.

US held elections in 1864

France held elections in 1871 during a large war where parts of the country were under Prussian occupation

Korea held elections in 1952

Vietnam held elections in 1956

Iraq held elections in 2005 with large parts of the country under foreign backed insurgent occupation

Georgia has held elections in 2008, 2012, and 2020.

Ukraine itself held elections in 2014 and 2019. Either the Donbas and Crimea are Ukrainian or they're not.



Absolutely an unimaginative & incorrect take and here's why:

1. The entire affair provides cover for continued operations against Russia without great power escalation. Hopefully Putin doubles down and loses even more military assets. If you don't understand this point take a day or two to think it through.

2. Ukraine cannot win (its objectives) this war without Western troops at some point & that's been clear since the start. US objectives have been met, with Russia unable to mount a conventional threat to Europe; with its hardware now discredited against Western weapons - much to the dismay of the Sino-Russia-Iranian axis; and with European underspending on defense & overreliance on Russian energy now reversing.

3. Get used to the new USA. We are going to very publicly assert our power and by doing so hopefully deter war in Asia.

Anyone who doesn't understand 1-3 needs to meditate on this and grow a pair.



Horrible take. We’ve just told every supposed ally of ours that they can’t trust us. Trump just single handedly set back International relations by over a hundred years.

All that post WW2 good will and trust just went poof. You think Germany or France is going to support us after this?



Going to deter war in Asia by simply telling China, go for it, take Taiwan and the whole 9 dash line?

That’s not deterring war, it’s appeasement. Ask the great European powers (and eventually the US) how that worked against Hitler…



Overall, Zelensky miscalculated when he challenged the VP like that. Nothing good was gonna come from that in that setting.

But I dont know why Vance even jumped in like that. It both undercut Trump and forced Zelensky to voice his disagreement.

But then they both attacked him for some perceived lack of gratitude which just spiraled out of control.



It looked planned to me, with canned talking points 'I clutch my pearls at you talking to us like that in OUR OVAL OFFICE!'.


Of course it was. Look at Trump's facial expression. He was calmly waiting to attack. Everyone had become desensitized to previous antics, so they had to escalate, just like on any good TV show.

People need to understand that who they're dealing with a trolls, not idiots or geniuses. The two negotiating strategies are to 1. provoke 2. create uncertainty. This seems to be extremely efficient at getting them attention, emotionally exhausting opposition, keeping counterparts off-balance and has the benefit of being able to make them a lot of money, considering that they're in control of market instability.



It was a setup


Zelensky did nothing wrong.


>fighting for his countries freedom against a totalitarian regime

He sent hundreds of thousands of his own people into a meat grinder to fight for the privilege of being ruled by his corrupt government (recognised as one of the most corrupt governments in Europe) instead of a different corrupt government, with his thugs literally going door-to-door dragging unwilling youths off to die. The average Ukrainian wasn't any better off under Ukrainian government than under Russian government, and they'd certainly be much better off alive than dead.



The vast majority of them volunteered. And that's just conscription -- every country would do the same in such a situation. The US pursued and prosecuted thousands of cases of draft dodging in WW2, forcing most of them to go and fight.




In the short term, certainly. In the longer term? I'm pretty glad not to have been born into an occupied British puppet state. If not for a man with the obstinacy of Zelenskyy, I might have been.

It was always ironic that Trump kept a bust of Churchill in the Oval Office but after today, it's almost obscene.



In the longer term there's realistically no chance of Ukraine regaining the land it lost. In both this scenario and that scenario Russia annexes part of Eastern Ukraine, but in that scenario there aren't hundreds of thousands of dead Ukrainians.


And what exactly do you think Putin will do after he successfully exits this particular engagement?

Past performance is, in fact, often quite a reliable guarantee of future results.



Lick his wounds for years, and die.

This Ukraine debacle wasn't the clean win he wanted.



If you believe Putin only wants "clean wins," you've fundamentally misunderstood his character.

It's a binary outcome from his perspective. If he obtains his his key objectives at some survivable cost, that's a win for him.



My god, the conduct by the administration this morning was disgusting. I have been an American my entire life - I have never seen conduct this shameful. Congress must act to reign this President in, we cannot abandon our allies like this.

I am calling my representatives and DEMANDING action, and if you care about this nation, the security of Europe, or defending a democracy against invasion then I recommend doing the same.

It has reached the point where I cannot express my full thoughts on this matter without reckless language. But rest assured, if we (Americans) do not speak out and stop this NOW, it will get worse.



If you watch the video of the exchange, it was a complete setup. Zelensky was being very diplomatic when they started attacking him. Vance literally said he didn't need to visit Ukraine to see for himself because he "had seen videos".

Zelensky was brought here specifically to be publicly humiliated on live TV.

In 80 years, if we still have history books, this moment will be in them.



The theory is that the only reason Vance was present was to be able to double-team Zelenskyy.


I think the VP is usually present at these types of meetings; but indeed there was double-teaming.


and Rubio was there to.....

sit and do nothing in an ill fitting suit



What can he really do in that situation? He can defend Zelensky or join in for a triple teaming. There aren't good options.


I think defending Zelensky would have been the honorable thing to do. It could have inspired other Republicans to start turning.


Rubio?

Honorable?



That, and Trump is incoherent. He has been for a couple of years now, unable to put even two sentences together that make any sense. He speaks entirely in applause one-liners. I think his dementia is significant now. If he were left alone with any world leader they'd realize almost immediately he's incompetent.

This is especially evident when you compare interviews today with those he gave 30 years ago. He was bright then. He's nothing like that today. That's also why he now refuses to be interviewed by unfriendlies.



Him on Oprah then is night and day compared to now.


That seems plausible as Trump in his speeches loses his train of thought now and then. Would not play well if he was alone in that situation.


The only humiliation that I saw was that of the United States by Trump's conduct. I was amazed at how calm Zelensky remained during that meeting.


The Propaganda Minister is also decrying Zelenskyy on Twitter, on cue. Probably had the tweet written hours ago.


It's up to the reader to decide if I was referring to Musk or Medvedev here, or perhaps both.


It should be crystal clear now who the leader of the free world really is.


The US walks alone now. Vulnerable and weak.


Alone? Maybe.

Vulnerable and weak?

Um, anyone who believes this is just not engaging in dispassionate analysis of the situation. We are a lot of not so good things. Weak is not one of them.



Any nation alone in a world of nations with strong alliances is weak.


The US isn’t alone though. Again, dispassionate analysis.


It is increasingly alone, by its own choice.


Exactly. Right wingers fundamentally misunderstand the source of American power. China might have a bigger navy that the US, very soon. Russia has more nukes. But those countries don't have voluntary military alliances. The US had (past tense) the largest and most effective set of voluntary military alliances in the world, and that was the heart of American power that Donald Trump is dismantling.

The why is an interesting question. I personally don't believe it's all ideology and idiocy. There has to be a level of compromise.



The whole notion of Pax Americana, just like Pax Britannica before, all the way back to Pax Romana, is that peace (Pax) is in the interest of the dominant empire that enforces it.

Why? Because the dominant empire that enforces it gets the most spoils from that peace. It is why Britain had the biggest empire ever and it's why the US is the richest nation on earth today.

This point seems to be completely missed by Trump, Maga, the US talking heads, and even people in threads like this. If the US withdraws from being "the world's policeman" then it withdraws from its empire.

As a European watching this unfold from the outside, it's hard not to see the actions of the US government as the beginning of the end of US dominance. It will likely hasten the collapse of the US dollar (if you can't force everyone to buy oil in dollars, then the world will shift, likely to Euros), does the US think their currency will remain the ‘reserve currency of choice’ if they isolate themselves from the world? The era of firing up those greenback printing presses whenever you want will be gone.

Isolationism will just lead to Europe recreating (or re-purposing) the institutions that the US was critical in forming (The UN, The World Bank, etc.) and looking to be its own world peacekeeper. It will eventually move the dominance to whichever nation or nations fill the vacuum. The US will get poorer. It may not collapse, but you can't withdraw from being the dominant empire and there be no financial consequences. Just look at the collapse of the British empire.

The problem is that this won't happen overnight. And the process of the US withdrawing will certainly lead to wars, maybe even a third world war. The withdrawal of its soft power via USAID will likely lead to famines, health crises, migrations, and a lot more refugees.

You may think that we can just 'sit it out' and wait for Trump's term to complete. But, it's obvious that the Republican party is now the MAGA party. The former allies of the US need to realise that this is it. They need to fill the space as fast as possible and move forward without the US. The US is not an ally any more.

It really is the last thing we needed after a financial crisis, a pandemic, and with the existential crisis - climate change - being ever more kicked into the long grass.

I despair for where this is heading :(



Bravo.

Another historical point of interest is how China, the "center of the world", isolated themselves from the rest of the world and how that played out.



I have a naive question, as a foreigner: do European leaders have any kind of leverage on their US allies?


Europe is a very large market and ignoring it does not make much sense, countries buy high tech components and armaments and they are aligned in terms of export controls. Europeans have a lot of high tech products that are valued globally.


No.

But people will remember that no and realise that they need to arm themselves because allies can’t be relied. Next you will have nuclear arms race everywhere, particularly Europe and Asia.

Is it what US wanted/don’t care? If not then it is the leverage



Europe could remind Trump that he's going to need our alliance if he plans to confront China. It looks less and less like he does though.


What's really infuriating to me is the way in which members of the startup world -- people who claim to wear the mantle of creators and builders -- have actively supported this nonsense. A16Z, Founders Fund, Sequoia all talk a big game about America being the greatest nation on the planet, and then turn around and back this regime in a naked grab for power and money. The hypocrisy is astounding.


By definition it's not possible for fascists to be hypocrites, because fascists do not use language to describe the world or pursue the truth, they only use language to gain power. If you accuse them of hypocrisy you've already lost, because you've failed to realize that they're not even playing the same game as you are. It's like accusing a Markov chain of being a hypocrite; you have fundamentally misunderstood the nature your opponent.


How does one fight a fascist?




I think your misunderstanding is in the "turning around" part. If you read any of the unhinged manifestos A16Z et al have written, you'll understand it's all very consistent with what you are witnessing now. Some people have been calling on this for at least a decade, but they are largely ignored.


True of Thiel. Andreessen though should be ashamed. He's become everything his techno optimist manifesto calls out as the enemy


Yes, it's completely spineless.

For all the intelligence they seem to purport, being complicit in supporting the takedown of democracy and the once good name of the US... Catastrophe for business, the startup world, and innovation.

Don't s** where you sleep.

And all those crypto bros thinking this would be a good thing... They seemed to forget that blockchain participation is essentially a luxury item. A dead economy is awful for crypto.



History will hopefully record how quickly they bowed to fascism when it benefited them.


What we saw on TV was just a glimpse of what actually already happens behind closed doors.


Ultimately what should be inferred is that Liberal idealism is receding or even gone.

It's all pure raw quid pro quo from now on.



I wonder what the GOP senators' reactions are to this very sharp turn? They had been strongly supportive of aid to Ukraine, pushing through funding. Maybe that was mostly McConnell and now that he's no longer majority leader, it fell by the wayside? Certainly the "traditional conservative GOP" would be horrified by these events. But maybe all those guys -- McCain, Romney, McConnell, are gone or on their way out.


They are on their way out, they understand what's about to happen.


What's about to happen?


If you're wondering, just wait. It will soon become very very obvious.


Somehow it makes me quite certain US will not stall shipping latest and newest weapons to Russia, contrary to the way they did to Ukraine.


This is exactly why no country should rely on other country for their survival and security. Powerful nations have shown time and again in the past how they can abandon you at a drop of a hat. Never ever rely on other country for your safety, you'll be screwed.

Imagine your country being usurped because people in some another country voted for someone who may have ties with your enemy.



Before you debate (what was said in) this meeting I think you should look at the full recording first. I saw edited versons where the meaning of the 'spat' was changed by leaving out the context.

This Dutch NOS news version [1] is longer than the BBC version and it is enlightening.

Il'll try to search for a version that has the total recording (this version misses the opening remarks) from start to finish and still without any editing (this version has no editing cuts). If I find a longer one I'll comment below.

The comments of Trump and Vance where way out of line if you consider they where in response to Zelensky stating in the very beginning that you should understand that Putin allready invaded in 2014 and has never honored any agreements or ceasefires before (especially not between 2014 and 2022 in Ukraine but also with other countries).

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7THU0jPM7l4



A little bit more of the oval office exchange but still not the fully integral recording https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEOv4x_FIsc


enlightening how exactly?


I read on a pro-russian site that if there is a strategy behind it, it might be to break Russia out of the China/BRICS alliance and use them as an ally against the "real" enemy, which would be China.

It would make some kind of sense and match the rhetoric of a lot of republicans - but on the other hand, it also sounds awfully risky especially if the plan is more or less known to anyone?



Whoever thinks that Russia will ever consider the US as an ally probably doesn't have a great sense of how Russia views itself and the US.

They'll play the part of ally, to a limited degree, when their stooges in Western Democracies don't have any demands of them. But no amount of trade will change their priorities as far as diminishing the dollar with something they at least partially control.



That's pure wishful thinking. Russia spans 11 time zones, but most of Russia's population lives near Europe, west of the Ural mountains. They have as little to do with China as other people of Europe. The "mental center" of Russia is close to Eastern Europe, and their greatest ambition is to dominate the continent, for a variety of reasons that would take too long to explain. They see the US as the archenemy, because the US has stood in their way since the end of WWII.

Russia is willing to play an ally, but only insofar as it brings them closer to what they really want: Europe. Anyone who doubts this is utterly clueless about Russia and not worth listening to.



Russia doesn't even have one of the 10 largest economies in the world, has shown its military to be made up of the rotting corpses of cold war technology, and (outside of the cities near europe) is a backwards shithole. I can't even keep track of how many military leaders have been thrown out of windows.

Other than land what, exactly, makes them a useful ally for the future? A willingness to throw bodies into a meat grinder?

That's the real kicker for me about all of this - Russia is weak. Trump is bowing down to a loser.



The Russian people are victimized by the kleptocratic petro-regime in charge, and the American people will be victimized the same.

It's best not to see these as the actions of governments acting in national interests, but as a section of an trans-national class acting in their own interest. With borders and statecraft being some of the pieces on the board they play with.

Lines between countries are for schmoes like you and I. Trump owns capital and etc assets around the whole world, just like Putin.



Just this week trump said he will not defend Taiwan from china.


Didn't work for Clinton, didn't work for Bush, didn't work for Obama, won't work for Trump.

This is the siren's song of Western Geopolitics. Believing that it will work This Time (tm) is a surefire way to get wrecked.

Russia borders China, unlike the rest of The West. Why would Russia ever sign up to put themselves on the front lines of tensions between the West and China. But people delude themselves into believing that they will, because it would be very convenient.



That seems somewhat laughable? Pro-Russian folks who are grasping at straws to spin what's happening so it doesn't look so bad?

I can't imagine Putin allowing his country to be "used" like that (regardless of how desperate his situation gets), especially considering that China is literally next door and would absolutely destroy Russia in any kind of military conflict.



This is what a falling empire looks like. America First is a project to dismantle the U.S. empire and reduce it to just another country.


It looks to me more like a start or an empire. The US has never been imperial but maybe it can get together with Russia and make a start with American West Ukraine, followed by Greenland and Canada?


You don't build an empire by cutting the federal government and reducing the deficit.


I am sincerely curious what Andreesen and Horowitz believe at the moment.


This is their government. Vance is their puppet. This is what they wanted.

Andreesen's little pseudo-manifesto a couple years back was fairly explicitly taking anti-liberal positions, and some that were outright anti-enlightenment.

Not surprising really. We now see an alliance between the tech sector of the US economy and the oil and gas sector. Remember Putin is effectively oil baron/executive, not just the leader of a country.



Andreesen funds Edward Dutton.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Edward_Dutton



$$$ probably...


Russia and China used to think they needed to beat America.

Then they hoped America would beat itself.

But I bet they never expected America to turn into an ally.



I always thought that Russia should join NATO. Stop with all the flirting.


What's wrong with being allies? Authoritarian countries unite!


Zelesnky and Trump both want peace, but what is peace?

The political spectrum is divided chiefly by how one views what peace is. On one side, John Locke's and the American founding father's, peace is the presence of justice. On the other side Thomas Hobbes' and Russia's, peace is the absence of violence. When you feel wronged, do you submit, or do you fight? If you fight you fight for justice. If you submit, it's because the violence is too much or those with the capacity for it are too strong, you would rather live a slave than die on your feet.

Ukrainians are fighting for justice, for self determination, and for a better tomorrow. Ukrainians are better Americans than we are because they have chosen to risk their lives rather than submit.

Peace must be due to justice, not submission. "Peace" due to submission is a false peace. It is the very definition of oppression.



Zelensky wants his country back. He would love for Russia to peacefully give Ukraine back. Probably not going to happen.

Trump's brain's actions are guided by a deep hatred of Ukraine. The Ukrainian cause is tightly bound to the memory of the Biden administration. The Ukrainian security services leaked the Paul Manafort diaries to Western press. The Ukrainian Phone Call was behind Trump's first impeachment.



This is so painful to watch. This kind of discussion should absolutely be behind closed doors to avoid the theatrics.


It's sad to be smaller countries.


I saw a lot of people justifying Trump's moves because "the US shouldn't be spending so much money helping Ukraine in the war".

I understand that argument, but what about security guarantees? Zelensky has been simply asking for security guarantees so that Putin doesn't start another war in a few years (like he did in 2014 and 2022). Why can't Trump provide that? Why should we just trust Putin's word? Or is there something I'm missing?



> the US shouldn't be spending so much money helping Ukraine in the war

Russia has been a principal threat for the past 75 years.

Donating equipment is a cheap way to wear them down. Dirty cheap.

It's absolutely in US interest, as it would allow US to focus on other players.



>"the US shouldn't be spending so much money helping Ukraine in the war".

Large part if not the majority of US money is used to replenish/renew/modernize the stocks of the outdated/expired stuff they send to Ukraine



Neither the US nor the EU want to directly fight Russia. A security guarantee is only credible if they are able and willing to fight Russia. That's why.


In past agreements like the 1994 Budapest Memorandum, Western powers and Russia pledged security guarantees not to use force against Ukraine. Security guarantees in this context would mean the US pledging to use force against Russia on Ukraine's behalf, doesn't it? That's a much riskier proposition. That could potentially start WW3.


I am born in Ukraine and live now in Europe. As European I may understand your disappointment with the West letting down some "rules based" order and democratic values. Yet as Ukrainian, I know unfortunately that the premises of the "rules based world" do not apply to many regions in the world, inclusive Ukraine. Let me explain, a rule-based order means that the monopoly of violence is the privilege of the state: if a bad guy annoys, you get them arrested by the police and sued by the justice. In international relations, the cop was the US. But if you live in a region where US cannot or just doesn't want to play the cop (for the seek of is interests : think to Saudi Arabia..) then you finish up in a 'violent world' where the order comes from the violence and power. If you accept that such regions exist, you become a realist (see mersheimer) And if you are realist, you do not understand why Zelensky has sacrificed 1million people while another strategy would have been more suited: accept the neutrality, play the economic development, play the cultural development (remeber that economy and culture are the weak parts of Putin's policy) and gain margins of independence step by step.


Mersheimer is mostly wrong. I urge you to seek alternate sources.


Mersheimer is not my source nor my reference. my source are the messages I receive from cousins on the battlefield.


>accept the neutrality

They were neutral and yet Russia invaded.

About the only major thing Zelensky could have done differently was to get on a flight out when the 2022 invasion happened and let Putin take over. I don't know if you think that would have been better? There would have been less deaths certainly. But if you look at how the Russians behave in places like Bucha it's not very nice.



> you do not understand why Zelensky has sacrificed 1million people

Vladimir invaded, and has never asked for or offered peace, not that he could be trusted if he did.

What else could UA do except fight.

The idea Z chose this route, that there were other routes, is incorrect.



What do you think Putin will do in year after a peace? What do you think Putin will do after taking over Ukraine? This is also a form of realism, to think what will happen in the future.


yet how do you defeat him right now ? if western stocks are completely depleted, and in the battlefield Ukraine (with all help of western countries) has 1 to 5 or 10 ratio of ballistic to Ukraine / China. Acknowledging this basic fact hurts to the ego but may save millions of lifes. Acknowledging this fact makes you think to your sole remaining strategy: separate Putin from Xi and gain time to enhance your military industry. Acknowledging this fact does not make you pro-Putin as you still prefer a democratic world. Of course, you will not be very successful in meetings. You can afford such non sense when you have no skin in the game. But if the lifes of your cousin is at stake, you think in a real world with real terms, what to do to spare your population !


Zelensky is just one person, rest of the Ukraine govt will play realists


mersheimer, who premisses his theory on 'Putin never lies'. Such reality.


I have issues with Mearsheimer but that's not really his position.


At the start of 2022 it was. He stated it over and over. Go watch his Youtube videos from that period.


Is there better footage than this weird livestream which abruptly cuts off at 2h:20m?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qmea-M9BvhE&t=8175s





Its time for EUrope to step up. If the US doesn't want to be the "arsenal of democracy" and the "leader of the free world" any more then only the EU (together with other countries like UK+AU+NZ+SK+JP & more) can do it.


Wouldn't be a bad time for the EU to announce that it's considering closing X number of US military bases in Europe, including the 6th Fleet HQ in Naples. That might get Trump back to the table.


I think its easier for the US to threaten to withdraw and Europe calling the bluff. Either goes ahead or they force another distraction.

My Dutch news website right now: "EU foreign policy chief: Free world needs new leader"



>closing US military bases in Europe

I think Trump would welcome that, though.



If he's serious about Gaza, those bases are needed. At least the naval bases on the Mediterranean. Though it's very hard to tell what's serious and what's not, he has been talking about it for a while now.


He's not serious about anything. Sorry for the low effort comment. I'm just frustrated.


He might at first, because he doesn't understand the implications of not having a base for the 6th Fleet in Italy. But the US military would be up in arms about it.


> But the US military would be up in arms about it.

The risk is why they'd be up in arms. Personally I think it would get spun as Europe acting against the US for no reason and Europe would become the scapegoat for any economic issues the US cause themselves.

The only real option is to wait for the US to do something undeniable while saying you don't want it, like tariffs, and then to retaliate as hard as possible when it happens. The difficulty with that approach is that it makes it easier for the aggressor to pick off one target at a time.

I'd be absolutely stunned if the Trump admin actually puts tariffs on the EU. I think it's a distraction so they can claim the EU capitulated in some way and Canada didn't, which somehow makes the tariffs on Canada justified.

The tariffs should help us understand if they're crazy or orchestrating something more strategic. If the goal is to weaken Canada economically so the US can pilfer Canada's resources, the US will "make up" with Europe and punish Canada as much as possible.

Canada, the EU, the UK, NZ, AUS, Mexico, etc. should have (loudly) created an agreement for unified retaliatory tariffs against the US over a month ago. Now we're open to being picked off one-by-one and it sucks.



I really can’t understand the rationale behind the tariffs on Canada, from any perspective other than “big American bully”


Maybe that will give them reason enough to refuse an order to put down protests using the Insurrection Act.


If you follow the conversation, the beef started after President Zelensky asked the same question he has been asking since the beginning of this circus: What are the guarantees for Ukraine? Ukraine tried diplomacy in 2015 and 2019; the results are well known. Why fall for the third time for the same putin's trap?

Instead of directly responding to direct questions, Vice President Vance starts shaming and bullying President Zelensky. This means the US has no answer and doesn't want to admit it. This is why Ukraine should walk away from the deal that gives them nothing.



If you’re a European, you should try identifying the psyops more with yourselves and your families, and support unification and democratic alliances where possible. And talk more about it since most people are absolutely influenced by conspiracies across the whole continent and across social strata. The UK was talking about the EU instituting straight bananas, and it was a key point for Brexit, including by the UK Prime Minister (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jul/14/boris-johns...)

If you’re an American, good luck. I’m sorry you’re gonna have to go through this.

At the end of the day, if you voted one way, it wasn’t your fault. You were probably deceived by foreign psyops. Happens to everyone.

If you voted the other way, don’t be angry. Turning it into class warfare does not provide any moral victory, and more so, is once again a distraction from the group of people who really are to blame for this. This is a the rallying point you were waiting for to become more politically active, in whatever way you can.

Also maybe consult with your constitution?



Trump made the following statement on Truth Social after the meeting:

We had a very meaningful meeting in the White House today. Much was learned that could never be understood without conversation under such fire and pressure. It’s amazing what comes out through emotion, and I have determined that President Zelenskyy is not ready for Peace if America is involved, because he feels our involvement gives him a big advantage in negotiations. I don’t want advantage, I want PEACE. He disrespected the United States of America in its cherished Oval Office. He can come back when he is ready for Peace.

It seems to me he wants the war over with as quickly as possible, and America’s involvement minimized, which means the weaker party in the conflict has to concede. And in his view the weaker party has no other chance anyway. He also wants to minimize anything that would stand in the way of lucrative deals with Russia.



> It seems to me he wants the war over with as quickly as possible

He wants the war to end right away on Russia's terms. Guess who else wants that?



Zelensky just proved once again what real leadership looks like.

He went to the White House knowing that they will try to do exactly that and yet he did it with his head held high and did not sign the deal. Amazing guy.

This is also a historic day for the world. US dominance over the West is over.

As a European, I will vote against any politician that keeps talking about EU-US special partnership and doesn't put 'EU First'. The special partnership is over, we are still doing business together but it's clear as a day that it's only business from now on.



> This is also a historic day for the world. US dominance over the West is over.

Seeing the US part ways with "western allies" firsthand - a true paradigm shift, and one I'm not looking forward to.



You’re not wrong, but there’s a reason US was in this position for this long.

There’s no ‘EU first’, every European country has constantly tried to one up their rivals for the last several centuries.



On the other hand, EU is a very recent experiment, given the length of European history.

In that sense, European countries were never as close as they are right now. I expect it to strengthen as time passes, especially now that the US should be seen as an hostile foreign nation to every European country.

Not to mention that after the shitshow that Brexit proved to be, even right-wing parties in Europe sort of abandoned their "leave EU" rhetoric.



I don't think the US looked great here at all from this chat, but Ukraine isn't an EU member and isn't a NATO member. France and UK signed the same 'security assurances' pact the US did, they don't have troops deployed either. The way people keep on bringing up NATO in this comment section makes no sense. Hell for the first year or two after the invasion it wasn't even clear if Germany would support Ukraine, they refused to send serious arms for ages.

And the US would love for the EU to defend itself. It's a large part why the U.S helped rebuild after WWII, and why the US has been begging NATO members to contribute the 2% GDP they promised for years. A strong EU is spelled out in U.S foreign policy.



> And the US would love for the EU to defend itself.

Then the US shouldn't have over decades worked to undermine EU defense industry.

I trust actions more than words. The US over the decades did all it could so that EU did not, in fact, stepped up its defence, mainly for its own damn interests. A Europe that depends on the US to shoulder part of its defense is a Europe a lot more susceptible to US interests.

I am actually glad this should be coming to an end. I always thought EU should get rid of US influence.



We’d need a common language in order to get as close as US states are to each other. English does work, but it’s not quite the same.


Eh, English does the job.

I don't think a common language is as necessary as you are making it out to be. India uses English as lingua franca because it has dozens on languages, and it is a more or less cohesive country.



That’s a good point, maybe I can be a bit more optimistic henceforth.


Was what happened today in the White House the best outcome for Ukraine? It is hard to see how that is the case.


Clearly not the best possible outcome. But what happened today cleared up any notion of the current US administration being an "ally". Seems like a defining moment and Europe will have to do a whole lot of think on how to move forward.


"Best outcome", no. "Best possible outcome", probably.


the correct question should be "was this avoidable"? - It doesn't look like it was with all the bad actors that arranged this spectacle.


Yeah, from my perspective this was just a dog and pony show. Trump and Vance got to look big and strong (their perception anyways) next to Zelensky, and he got to look like he's willing to continue the conversation. Doubt anyone actually expected progress out of this.


> As a European, I will vote against any politician that keeps talking about EU-US special partnership and doesn't put 'EU First'.

Isn't that exactly the logic behind Trumpism though? "Our partners suck, we need to put our own interests first" is how you get isolation and trade wars. And sometimes real wars.

I mean, maybe that's where things are going. But "as a European" you should at least recognize that's the policy you're arguing for.



bad choice of words from me indeed. What I wanted to say is that a lot of people, especially in the Eastern Europe look at the US as a rock solid partner - even more solid than EU. That dates back to WWII.

Its time to change that perception.



Don't fall for this argument, it just keeps ratcheting things in the bully's favor. Game theory offers abundant demonstrations of the fact that cooperation is the best default, but cooperation with a serial defector is a losing strategy. At some point they need to experience suffering in response to aggression.


Imho still better than relying on a bully.


I'm afraid of USA by now.

That one day they will sever ties with Europe, I expected. But not becoming an actively hostile state.

I am left wondering - how long it will take until Americans start openly supporting Russia and China?

When I was younger, anti-American people were a source of jokes for me. Being a Pole, why would anyone be against our ally? Well, now I see. And it's painful to say that, but I'm starting to see Americans as people in very negative light. Perhaps you were hated in the rest of the world for a reason.



I have genuinely some questions:

Are these world class leaders that manage trillions and more importantly human lives?

Where is the f... nuclear weapons threat that would convert the war to a cold one?

Why doesn't EU cooperate/negotiate directly with both Ukraine and Russia to end the war? US can be ignored for now with such incompetent leadership.

Just a reminder: Uk and Ru are sister countries. Kiev was the first capital of the Russian empire. Its loosely like a civil war.



I'm still digesting what I've “witnessed” yesterday. I have no words for it, I'm baffled. Time to re-think…


On the plus side, at least Marco Rubio seemed completely embarrassed to be sitting in the room with them. He was sinking and sinking into that sofa.


Haha, no. He praised Trump immediately after.

https://nitter.poast.org/SecRubio/status/1895554419305091087



The elephant in the room is that America doesnt want Russia to lose. Russia is basically America's dog, used to scare European countries in spending either 2% or soon maybe 5% of their GDP to america in order to be "protected". It's a racket and both the USA and Russia are colluding.


I think it makes more sense that Biden at any rate didn't want Russia to lose in case it collapsed into nuclear armed anarchy.


Really amazing how much of current reality consists of direct 1-1 plot points in Babylon 5. Not like some Simpsons reference, but entire season story arcs.

I think we are up to Season 3, Ep 9.

The president will declare martial law, and will issue executive order to dissolve the senate.



Can we take the opportunity to discuss why Trump's administration is so desperately going after rare earth minerals? Greenland, Canada, Ukraine...

Is it only about chips and AI for economic reasons or is there more involved like, an army of robots or something to control everything?



I don't think that it makes sense. Rare earth elements aren't actually very rare, they don't have a lot of market value compared to other minerals [1], and there are already abundant known deposits in North America (including the United States).

There are two main reasons that REE production is dominated by China. One is that Chinese production is low-cost. Two is that the total market demand is small, so that (absent some long term price guarantee) adding another big REE production center outside of China will probably tank the market value and lose the investors money. See the history of the Mountain Pass mine in California:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Pass_Rare_Earth_Mine

This one mine produced most of the world's REE between 1965 and 1995. It closed in 2002 because it had a toxic spill that would be too expensive to remediate given the arrival of Chinese competition. In 2012 it reopened as a reaction to Chinese export restrictions on REE instated 2 years earlier. In 2015 global REE prices went back down and the Mountain Pass mine went bankrupt again. It resumed operating in 2018 after it was brought back out of bankruptcy. It relies on frosty US-China trade relations and government support to remain a going concern. There's not enough global demand for REE to keep Mountain Pass independently profitable whenever Chinese export restrictions get relaxed.

[1] In terms of total market value, I mean. Dysprosium has a high value per kilogram but the current annual demand for all rare earth elements combined is under $8 billion, compared to e.g. $20 billion for zinc alone.



It's coming from elon, who has courted russia for Ukraine's metals and minerals since at least the 2022 invasion.


SpaceX Flacon 9 nozzles contain nyobium which is mined in Ukraine. It has been a problem since that invasion, and one of the reasons SpaceX sometimes flies short stubby nozzles when possible.


That's what I suspect as well, especially with the tesla bots, but there is also Ellison's influence


He is simple power hungry monkey: russian can attack countries and get away with it, israel can kill anyone they want, why cant his country? He just heard from his richest powercunt that he uses "rare earth" to make batteries, so he wants


In the last Trump administration there were enough people handling him. This time there are only yes men, so anything we see, is him unstopped/unfiltered. Trump doesn't understand complexities just "winning", he understands that minerals are valuable so he wants them, that is it. He also wants the peace price, but he doesn't understand long term strategy or planning so this situation, this sudden shift and strong arming is him wanting to accomplish this goal now. He feels Putin is stronger so the goal is easier accomplished by forcing Ukraines hand.

If one views it trough the lens of: What a high school bully, who has no self control and can't delay gradification, would do... then nothing Trump does is surprising.



There are almost no rare earth minerals in Ukraine. The "desperately going after rare earth minerals" line is something that has appeared in the media...but at no point did they actually check whether Ukraine has any (beyond comical maps that tell you nothing about the grade, recoverability, etc.).

The reason for the deal is: recover money for taxpayers, provide some security guarantee without an explicit commitment that will end up with US being deployed, and backstop significant private-sector investment into Ukraine to try to revive their economy (after the war destroyed and maimed a huge proportion of their working adult population).

There are (almost) no rare earth minerals though.



My take was the mineral deal was invented by Z (more likely staffers) as a clever ploy designed to appeal to T who is a colossal idiot and can only conceive of geopolitics as consisting of zero sum "deals" that one country makes with another. So they invented a deal. I always assumed it would be a shit deal for T, since idiot and all. But it seems he wanted the shit sandwich for free. Basically negotiated himself into no deal.


I would like to know this too.

I have no idea, so this is pure speculation, but as charge cycles for batteries keep increasing I'm guessing they'll become more valuable, especially if they're made from finite resources. Consider a scenario where you never own the battery and have to lease it forever.

The opposite side would be choking off the supply of the rare minerals needed to make batteries with the intent of making it more difficult to switch to renewable energy. You'd need all of them though and I just don't see them improving their position in Canada.

Or it could be as simple as "gold is shiny" and Trump wants them because he's heard they're valuable.



Batteries can be nearly fully recycled. At least the critical materials can be (might lose plastics or epoxies). In fact the co-founder and former CTO of Tesla left to start a massive firm doing just that. That places a theoretical upper limit to demand for new materials.


I think it's the same reason Musk is promoting his Mars bullshit.

This appears as very long term thinking, while in reality is a way to siphon money in the short term and sell whatever idea they currently have under this long term plan.

Not to say that it would be bad for US to own Greenland - of course it would be great. Mars too BTW...



Greenland is worthless, and having a long running territorial dispute with the entirety of Europe would be bad for all involved.


Worthless ?

Given it's natural ressources and geographical position it's extremely intresting. But of coures the second part is right - it's just not in the realm of possible, without going to an ugly fight with Europe.



Greenland is absolutely worthy in terms of being an easy target to set forth the precedent of US annexing other countries just like Crimea did for Putin before the full-on invasion


US has for all practical purposes owned Greenland since WW2.


What is most interesting is the presence of Vance and that he started the argument. Yesterday he was with Trump and the British PM and accused the UK of being against free speech. I don’t recall VPs being active in such meetings before now. It says a lot that Vance is taking such a prominent role in areas that VPs traditionally do not publicly venture in.


(context) Vice President JD Vance Delivers Remarks at the Munich Security Conference: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pCOsgfINdKg


Marco Rubio was there with an expression like his soul had left his body.


'I don't really care what happens to Ukraine, one way or the other'

    - J. D. Vance - podcast interview 2022


Cheney comes to mind.


IMO the issue is that if they want to stage an argument, Trump on the campaign trail has often lost his train of thought. That would not look very "strong" so Vance is there to do the job.


He needs to establish himself as a leader (this behavior doesn't help beyond maybe their base) if he wants to be president after Trump. It's also ingratiating behavior towards Trump which will help ensure he remains on his good side and part of the in-crowd.


I get the sense that Vance and Musk are the ones really in control.


I think it's actually Thiel who is in control and pulling the strings here. He essentially got Vance into his current position and is obviously still linked to Musk.


Steven Miller and Musk, not Vance


Isn’t Vance sponsored by Thiel and therefore here to stay?


Maybe. Trump's temper can still get him sidelined. He needs to remain front and center to be a viable candidate in 2028. And nothing about Thiel or Musk suggest they'd throw money at him out of loyalty, they'd throw money at him if they thought he could win. Otherwise, they'd find another candidate.


Realtalk: Would you entrust the nuclear arsenal to someone who honestly thinks "asylum seekers" came from an insane asylum?

https://thespectator.com/topic/spectator-interview-president...



Can someone please make this make sense?

“Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth last week ordered U.S. Cyber Command to stand down from all planning against Russia, including offensive digital actions.”

https://therecord.media/hegseth-orders-cyber-command-stand-d...



Going back in history re Trump

"The top level of the Soviet diplomatic service arranged his 1987 Moscow visit. With assistance from the KGB." https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/11/19/trump-fir...

And then of his return he ran a full page ad in three papers asking to reduce the US's overseas defence spending https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/01/15/trumps-na...

etc. and repeat similar stuff again and again. Palling around with Russia, helping out Russia.



The free world needs a new leader.


Peace without justice is just conquest.


Welcome to earth. It's not fair.


But some rare worthwhile people don't just lay down, or bend over, to take it from a bully.

Fairness exists as much as people are willing to pursue it.



Embarrassing buffoonery. I never thought I'd pine for the days of bureaucratic but stately presidents.


I wonder, giving the situation in the world, do you agree that Iran's and North Korea decision to develop weapon of mass destruction was the right idea in hindsight? Because the one who is weak gets bullied.


absolute display of debased cowardice

if you're american and you're able to watch the video without feeling either ashamed or revolted, know that absolutely no one in the world respects the cloth you're cut from, except for the the worst dictators and their lackeys



this meeting will be remembered in ages to be come.


You're making the assumption that even more outrageous things aren't coming down the pipeline. I think that's unwarranted. They will continue to escalate.


Extraordinary. I hope the Americans reading this please watch the full exchange with the perspective of history. I saw a hero, Zelenskyy, one of the great leaders of our time, and two shockingly awful bullies. Vance especially.


Yeah he showed great leadership when he banned books, religion, language, journalists that opposed him, canceled elections, lost 20% of his country and generations of young men fighting a war he had 0 chance of winning when he had a peace deal initialed early on. Just a fantastic leader.


That video was hard to watch. Zelensky was being very dignified and they absolutely jumped down his throat. This public meeting was a complete setup, and it's ironic that JD Vance is accusing Zelensky of grandstanding.


Vance didn't believe for a second that Zelensky was grandstanding. He was trying to manipulate his video audience into believing that Vance wasn't grandstanding by accusing Zelensky of misbehaving as he was obviously doing himself.

It's an old propaganda trick that Vance probably learned from the Russians (who used it heavily for 70+ years). But it works only on an easily intimidatable audience that doesn't know any better. Nor care.



"have you been to Ukraine?" No but... lol


Alternate feed for the video here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jqLtIrRqDg

https://apnews.com/live/donald-trump-latest-news-2-28-2025

Is it just me, or does it seem like the conversation swerves suddenly to "you're disrespecting..." It just seemed like a complete change of subject.



Non-YT here: https://www.dw.com/en/ukraine-updates-zelenskyy-leaves-after...

It's moronic, I am truly flabbergasted. They are both adults acting worse than children running a country. But of course you have the uneducated folk who will lap this up.

"I know you are but what am I"



[flagged]



He's scheduled to address his nation in a Fireside Xhat as soon as the ketamine drip goes dry.


I read that as khat for a second, and I was happy he found a new drug




I wonder what Hitler would be thinking about all this if he'd be alive.


Zelenskyy is an absolute hero. I couldn't be prouder of him in this very moment, to actually speak his mind and demand that the man who claims to be the leader of the free world admits one simple thing - that Putin is a killer. If he can't even do that then it's clear no productive discussion can take place.


I think he did a good job of calmly making his case in the face of Trump/Vances bad behaviour.


Saw it live, and was legit feeling a panic like, this is the end.

Timely. Netflix has series "Turning Point: the Bomb and the Cold War" that is a good watch while the world burns.



Watching Netflix shows is a horrible way of learning about nuances of international conflicts.


I think 'nuance' has left the building.


Please donate drones to Ukraine https://www.dronesforukraine.fund/


Great idea!

Though we learned the hard way what "dontate to ukraine" means

[1] https://www.yahoo.com/news/estonia-biggest-charity-helping-u...



Trump with his bluffs and attacks operates within crumple zone of US and even of the western world but this crumple zone slowly starts giving up. Inside his head he thinks he is genius with ideas like taking over Greenland, depopulating Gaza, capturing Ukrainian resources or that Putin treats him seriously. Fact is EU has been asleep at the wheel for the last decade doing even counter productive moves like Brexit and Nord Stream, or ridiculous things like attaching bottle caps to the bottle, while corruption in Ukraine has been continuously enormous to the point they run out of money and people. Honestly, it all looks rather bleak and elites of many EU countries are ready to eject to Dubai (as Russian and Ukrainian ones have already done).


On the one hand, I'm pretty sure Zelenskyy has had similar exchanges with Biden and the members of his administration in the past few years. And I understand (I think) the realities here: the US isn't doing anything out of the goodness of its heart; Putin's idiotic "short victorious war" blunder presented a nice opportunity to weaken Russia via a proxy war, no decisive military/materiel support was given, just enough to keep Ukraine going, etc.

But FOR GOODNESS' SAKE, these dealings and bickering are supposed to happen behind closed doors! You give the public just the bland courtesies and assurances! The US president and vice president have come across as impulsive 4-year-olds throwing toys out of a sandbox.

I used to think that the novel "The 2020 Commission Report on the North Korean Nuclear Attacks Against the United States" ([1]), which ridicules Donald Trump quite a bit, was overdoing it for humor. Now I'm not so sure.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_2020_Commission_Report_on_...



For a second I thought this was by Chuck Tingle rather than Arms Control Wonk


That's difficult to do when Trump still thinks he's on reality tv.


Trump pardoned the January 6th rioters for the benefit of a certain segment of his supporter base. I have a feeling his childish humiliation of Zelensky is more of the same.

It's no coincidence he dropped a "World War 3" reference, a common talking point of a certain segment of the online populist right (to be clear, this isn't to say some fear about such a scenario is unjustified; only to point out that it is cynically used to steer the discussion about the Ukrainian in a certain direction).

Shame on everyone who continues to be an apologist for this administration. People can make mistakes – I've supported my fair share of dodgy people in the past – but anyone who doesn't see things clearly at this point isn't looking.



The "certain segment of his supporter base" is now completely managed by Russians in their information / cognitive domain.


I watched the whole press conference. Here's the summary:

- It was amicable for the first 30 minutes.

- It went downhill when Zelenskyy asked Vance slightly hostile questions saying that Putin would not honor the cease-fire.

- Then Vance responded in a more hostile manner saying Zelenskyy should be more thankful and that he shouldn't be litigating in front of the press. And everyone started fighting.

Honestly, the 3 of them acted badly. Both Zelenskyy and Vance started it. And after it was started, Trump just accepted the fight instead of trying to end it. It's sad this ended this way, especially because the press conference was going well for the first 30 minutes.



I'm not sure most Americans will fully appreciate the gravity of this. We don't trust you anymore. We don't trust American self-control. You are becoming an enemy.

It genuinely feels like I'm looking at the precursor to a Nazi party.



As an American I can't blame you. It looks like that from inside as well and it's terrifying because we feel completely powerless - unless we can muster tens of millions to march in the streets in a country the size of ours it won't have any impact. And most people here are still completely apathetic.


Best we can manage is an Feb 28 Economic Blackout Day. (Don't forget to stock up the day before!)

You didn't know about it? Or you did, and you didn't buy from amazon for a single day? Democracy is saved!



All I can say is that Zelensky is a terrible negotiator. Recognize who you're dealing with, and adjust your stance accordingly. He should have negotiated a little bit but ultimately taken the minerals deal--give Trump the win with his base, and give Trump a reason for the US to join in the fight. Throw in something crazy, like a Trump golf course or a statue or something. He is a simple man to please! These are generational battles that will long outlive either of their egos: be humble and accept that in at least one regard, Trump is right: Ukraine doesn't have the cards.


> Ukraine doesn't have the cards.

Oh, but they do. We (the west) can't allow them to be overrun.

So if they refuse to accept a deal, what can we really do?

Starving Ukraine for supplies would be extremely dangerous.

(That said: I'm not sure Trump understands this)



So you think that Ukraine being overrun is a negotiating card? For whom? Why does America care? It's really Europe's problem, and Europe is not united enough to mount the necessary response. The reality is that Europe has underfunded their defense to the tune of trillions of dollars since the fall of the Soviet Union, and if Ukraine really mattered to them then they would have started investing in their defense back in 2014 when Crimea was "overrun" (and there were basically no consequences whatsoever). The EU's GDP is 10x Russia's; if it's really so important that Ukraine wins, then let Europe fight!


Russia conquering Ukraine will bolster the Russian economy and incentivises then (as well as China) to continue territorial expansions. Already the war has given rise to military and economic alliance between Russia, Iran, North Korea and potentially China. If things continue in this direction, it will absolutely become a big problem for the US. Better to stop the rot asap.


Anyone not starting a nuclear weapons program right now is a fool.


What sparked this heated discussion? Zelensky asked JD what if Putin breaks the agreed diplomacy as he had done previously?


Looks like it started with JD saying that Zelensky wasn't "thankful" and was instead trying to plead (JD said "litigate" IIRC) his case to the American public (which of course he was, that's what these meetings are for otherwise you have them in a private room).


It was already under tension because it looked like they couldn't come to terms. When Zelenskyy accuses Trump of being aligned with Putin, things started getting heated.


> When Zelenskyy accuses Trump of being aligned with Putin

When was that, I haven't seen the whole thing except where it got heated, but at no point did I catch Zelenskyy saying anything that could possibly be interpreted like that.

But mostly I couldn't hear what Zelenskyy was saying because he couldn't get a word in edgewise.

Happy to be proven wrong.



Ok I rewatched and I made a mistake. Zelenskyy was off camera and apparently it was a reporter saying it who I had mistaken for Zelenskyy.


Congratulations on hitting 5k posts on a Fyre-level topic!


Two Karens yelling at a man, "Do you know who I am?"

That's the impression and its really shameful and embarrassing.



China can be pretty sure that the US will not act if they attack Taiwan. Trump and Vance are weak. All talk, no walk.


MORE: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43209538

This is what I'm thinking.

Now would be a great time for China to start an invasion. It would be a crime. China today, that government is not above committing international crimes.



> Now would be a great time for China to start an invasion

I'm not doubting at all that China has imperialistic designs on Taiwan and the South China Sea. But why would China invade, when its leaders can clearly see that Russia, through strategic patience, bribery, and aggressive hybrid warfare, has finally won the Cold War without ever having to invade the US militarily?

Bribery is rampant among high-ranking military officers in Taiwan, for example. Many of them have been exposed to have sold classified information to the Chinese government for trifling amounts of money. China has also managed to poach a lot of former TSMC engineers to work at SMIC by offering generous salaries. Why take military action against Taiwan today (or in 2027, according to the CIA [1]) when China just has to be very patient?

[1] And do we really trust the CIA, given how many times it has lied throughout its entire existence to justify starting/escalating wars?



the same could have been said about Ukraine, yet russia invaded


When Russia invaded, Trump wasn't the President quickly dragging the US into the realm of irrelevance, and back then it seemed very unlikely (even unimaginable) that Trump would be President again.

But everyone had too much faith in the Americans, and here we are.



China is smart enough to know that US diplomacy lasts longer than a 4 year term. They've been operating off the 1992 Consensus, and had a longstanding agreement with the US re: One China Policy that was upended by Obama, and then Biden. Trump's chaotic swings are a blip.

China is also smart enough to have been watching the "decoupling" pushed by the Obama-era CIA starting in the late 2010s, and then the Russian invasion, so an actual Taiwanese land invasion won't happen until China is fully decoupled, and even then there is the much bigger international fallout. China won't throw away its position as world factory. Within China there are too many people in the party who don't see a land invasion as feasible.

All of the recent sabrerattling by the US and pushing Taiwan for a declaration of independence is what would trigger an invasion. To think that opportunistically exploiting a senile president's term to act on this conflict grossly misunderstands the entire Taiwan/China situation. And it says more about you and how Americans view global diplomacy.



Perhaps Europe can defend it?


We're at peak ape technology but at this point in time for some reason we turn to a specific ape, not a smart one but an ape who feels he should rule the world, and is on the doorstep to world domination, one that feels entitled to this amount of power, and we ask him to do "the right thing"?

America, don't be the next force the rest of the world needs to fight. Wake the fuck up.



I am sorry but the intelligent, cultured America I learned to love does no longer exist.


It's gone. It's been going for a while, but now it's gone. I say that as an American. Take heed lest it happen where you live as well.


No more folksy Bush with his boldfaced lies about WMDs leading to a million deaths. No more stately Obama redefining every dead 18 year old as an "enemy combatant".

Alas, time's cruel arrow!



This was a setup. It wasn't meant to be a meeting where policy is negotiated, it was an attempt bully Zelensky into agreeing to a bunch of pro-Russian falsehoods in hopes that he'd get something from the US. Good on him for realizing that Ukraine will get nothing from our compromised government, pushing back against false narratives and not hurting his cause trying to pursue a "compromise" just like the one that Ukraine got in 2015 that Russia reneg'd on almost immediately.


If we're going down the conspiracy theory route, is it not equally plausible that this was a setup by Zelinsky?


"Alice, schedule a meeting for me. At the white house. I'm gonna get Trump and Vance."


No, because Zelenskyy is a president whose country has been invaded, and Trump is a bully who craves power. These two men are not equivalent, and if you can't see that, then you are beyond help.


Your account is 1 hour old, your opinion is invalid.


As an American, I'm disgusted.

In my view the only way to solve this is through a complete and utter rejection of all things USA. People of Europe and the world, you can help by immediately stop buying American products, halt any travel plans you might have had here, have your goverments embargo us. Do everything in your power to crush our economy.

We need something extreme to make these MAGA folk and the Republicans in power break out of this authoritarian fever dream they are in.

I'd rather see this country get sick and vomit what needs to be expelled rather than have it die a slow death from this cancerous group-think that has overtaken half our population.



Propably just a show to make the EU swing by helping the poor Ukraine


Was this argument staged? Trump & Vance get to look as though they're out for American interests and peace-friendly. Zelensky gets to go home and say "look, my hands are tied, I have to end this war, our biggest ally has betrayed us".

I'm working on the thesis that everything politicians say about foreign policy in public is for the consumption of the home audience, which has served me pretty reliably up until now.



Media reporting on this feels extremely misleading if you actually watched the full clip. Zelenskiy remains remarkably calm throughout the entire ordeal.

Things only really get "angry" when JD Vance tries to provoke him only for him to calmy respond and be cut off immediately by Trump as soon as he hints at the US not being immune to physical risks from adversaries just because there's a body of water around it. Trump then goes completely off the rails saying things like "you don't get to dictate to us how we feel" or some nonsense like that.

It seems that the line he crossed was suggesting that the US is a part of geopolitics, not just an immortal observer with the option to intervene and participate as they see fit with no risk of consequences. This wasn't a disagreement over Russia, this was a disagreement over American isolationism and the mirage of American invulnerability that I thought had been disproven at least since 9/11.



> In a fireworks-filled public confrontation unlike any seen between an American president and foreign leader in modern times, Mr. Trump and Mr. Vance castigated Mr. Zelensky for not being grateful enough for U.S. support in its war with Russia and sought to strong-arm him into making a peace deal on whatever terms the Americans dictate.

Jebus, how do you screw up a photo op?

Buch of children in the US executive branch.

I suppose they think they look “strong” but it looks more insecure and incompetent to me.



>Buch of children in the US executive branch.

The intended audience is eating this up. If you go to conservative spaces, NATO now is considered a rip off, the EU was apparently designed to hurt the US, Zelensky is a dictator, etc.



/r/conservative is truly interesting. Not American, but i guess that most past us president would cream at the vague thought of making Russia loose soldiers and equipment with just helping a third country, without loosing soldiers


/r/conservative party no longer exists. It's maga now. And maga is aligned with and promoted by russia. With the goal of diminishing US world influence, dismantle NATO etc etc the opposite of Reagan era conservatives.


That sub is heavily moderated to remove all dissension from whatever Trump's view is at the moment. It's not a representative sample of the conservative side of America.


Canadian here.

If /r/conservative is not representative of conservative side of America, and the conservatives control the US Congress , I am puzzled that not one of the conservatives has pushed back on annexation of Canada or Greenland . Not One.



The voting public is not the extremely online, totally batshit, completely cognitively owned by the GRU, republican activist and acolytes as well as Republican elected and leadership.


I agree, but it's the conservative voting public that reliably returns these people to office even though many of them have a long track record of frothy rhetoric and legislative hyperconformity. This kind of aggressively loudmouthed conservatism has been a fixture in Congress since the Tea Party and arguably back to when Newt Gingrich was speaker. IT's not at all a new phenomenon.

Political scientists have visualized legislative partisanship in Congress, and this feels like the 10th time I've posted this in the last decade :https://www.vox.com/2015/4/23/8485443/polarization-congress-...

Now, voters may not like this and feel trapped by the way the primary system works and so on, but the reality is taht they keep giving in to the partisans.



The other side is made up of and cares about the wellbeing of people they don’t like (people of color, lgbtqia, traditionally oppressed people, disabled people, etc.)

That’s it: extinction burst because winning because of attributes you inherited wasn’t working.

Also, real easy to say “shit sucks”. Really hard to actually make things that don’t suck.

That, plus a healthy dose of anti-intellectualism, is a ratchet to hell.



It is absolutely the perspective of most conservatives I speak with in blood red Ohio


Where in OH?


Do you think any trump voters are changing their mind about him though? Are their conservatives that would vote against Trump right now if they could? I don't think so personally


r/conservative members are banned after disagreeing with trump more than a few times. To stay members, they LITERALLY must excuse anything Trump does. Thus no matter what, they will find a way to support him out of fear of being banned and thus not being real conservatives.


Well, what we have now is manifestly not conservatism. I would argue it is Yarvinism:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curtis_Yarvin

"In his blog Unqualified Reservations, which he wrote from 2007 to 2014, and in his later newsletter Gray Mirror, which he started in 2020, he argues that American democracy is a failed experiment[5] that should be replaced by an accountable monarchy, similar to the governance structure of corporations.[6] In 2002, Yarvin began work on a personal software project that eventually became the Urbit networked computing platform. In 2013, he co-founded the company Tlon to oversee the Urbit project and helped lead it until 2019.[7]

Yarvin has been described as a "neo-reactionary", "neo-monarchist" and "neo-feudalist" who "sees liberalism as creating a Matrix-like totalitarian system, and who wants to replace American democracy with a sort of techno-monarchy".[8][9][10][11] He has defended the institution of slavery, and has suggested that certain races may be more naturally inclined toward servitude than others.[12][13] He has claimed that whites have higher IQs than black people, but does not consider himself a white nationalist. He is a critic of US civil rights programs, and has called the civil rights movement a "black-rage industry".[14]

Yarvin has influenced some prominent Silicon Valley investors and Republican politicians, with venture capitalist Peter Thiel described as his "most important connection".[15] Political strategist Steve Bannon has read and admired his work.[16] U.S. Vice President JD Vance "has cited Yarvin as an influence himself."[17][18][19] Michael Anton, the State Department Director of Policy Planning during Trump's second presidency, has also discussed Yarvin's ideas.[20] In January 2025, Yarvin attended a Trump inaugural gala in Washington; Politico reported he was "an informal guest of honor" due to his "outsize influence over the Trumpian right."[21]"



The best case against this are people formerly from Trump's inner circle who say he really has no ideal or political agenda except for himself.

You are right though. There is nothing "conservative" about the current "conservative" party. It is 100% pure reactionary. The only principles are opposition to what "the opposition" wants.



If liberalism is creating a Matrix-like totalitarian system, then what the hell is techno-monarchy creating?


More of a torment nexus.


I guess that only someone who would see himself on top could conceive something so perverted


Yarvin has stated he absolutely is not the person on top. That he’s not cut out to be that person. His role is the philosopher; more a priest than prince.


Those tend to get killed pretty quickly, unless they are completely willing to subjugate themselves to the person on the top.

Either Yarvin is so ignorant of history that he’s barely worth listening to, or he is actively malevolent, and intentionally deceptive, OR he has absolutely no qualms about bending his “philosophy” to the whims of whoever happens to control the executioner.

Take your pick.



To quote William Burroughs, 'beware of whores who say they don't want money. What they mean is they want more money...much more.'


It’s a great quote and true if Sam Altman is any example. I don’t know Yarvin but he has pretty much explicitly said and taken actions which suggest he’s not interested in ruling. He’s written many thousands of words why he wouldn’t be a good ruler.

But he is explicit in his desire for a ruler.



Yarvin doesn't want all the bother of trying to become a monarch (a lifetime quest), but I'm sure you can think of historical advisers to royalty that have made themselves indispensable to several generations of rulers.


FSB psyops directorate is celebrating so hard they won’t get sober until next Tuesday.


Doublethink at its finest.. We were always at war with Estasia after all..


Unfortunately I think it plays well for their audience, makes Trump and Vance look strong, and makes Zelenksy look week.


He made his priority pretty clear in that regard:

> Shortly before the meeting ended, Trump offered, “This is going to be great television.”

https://apnews.com/article/zelenskyy-security-guarantees-tru...



If there was ever proof that Trump is just a troll, this is it. Annoy the room just so you can't be overlooked, no matter how much you deserve to be.


MMA-based diplomacy.


More like WWE


More like department of education.


Yeah, I watched as much of the video as I could, and I can totally see this playing well with all the conservatives I know. JD Vance and Trump come off as strong, and Zelensky comes off as weak.


The only one who looked strong was zelensky to me. But I’m sure the maga base will eat this up and oddly are pro Russia now.


It's funny, I mean I don't know the exact divide between MAGA and trad Republicans, but the trad Republicans I know have been the ones to turn pro-Russia. There definitely seems to be a split in /r/conservative.


No, they come off as weak little babies whining about someone not saying thank you.


Who are you telling, but they're not playing to us.


That's not what strength looks like, but the American right-wing probably will think it is.


Cue the super-cut of Zelensky thanking the U.S. since probably December 2022.


Trump & Vance didn't screw it up- this was on purpose. As the saying goes, "the cruelty is the point"


I'm going with the idea that it is screwed up, even if intentional.


Yeah, pretty sure history will be the judge as to whether this was a colossal screwup.


That meeting is one of the most infurating things I have ever witnessed. We are 100% cooked.


Time for Europe to reduce the discussions and back Ukraine even more. Europe can't rely on Trump and his clowns anymore who will more likely side with Putin and other fascists than with free Europe.

They should use all frozen Russia's money assets to back Ukraine's war effort (it still didn't happen fully). And increase weapons production and armies to adequate sizes ASAP (this should have happened "yesterday").



After this meeting I have no doubts that President Krasnov theory is real.


This timeline is so bad, it is increasingly hard to dismiss the possibility that that is not the product of change, but rather the product of being in an absolutely shitty simulation.


or of a CERN experiment in ~2015 having had ...side effects


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"NATO expansion" is one point of view. Another is: a sovereign country (Ukraine) prefers the west over Russia and wants to join it.

So what’s the propaganda now?



Ukraine needs to be allowed to be a sovereign country, but it currently is not. Here is Victoria Nuland choosing the next leader of Ukraine in 2014 in a call. Mind you, she apologized for her comment saying 'fuck the EU', but not for meddling in another countries politics. So it's confirmed if you're doubting the validity.

The call: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoW75J5bnnE

I do not, and will never regard a country as sovereign at this level of intervention.



Many assumptions you make:

- No desire within Ukraine to join the West in/before 2014.

- No meddling from Russia within Ukraine to be pro-Russia since Ukraine became independent.

- The invasion of Russia is "just a reaction and there were no diplomatic alternatives"

Your view of the things seem to start 2014 and neglect interferences and choices Russia made. This is typical for people painting the West as the "true culprits": The West is always painted as a propaganda machine, while meddling with foreign nations. But Russia is a single unit with only the best intentions.

Furthermore, the situation evolved over many years. Even if the West had their hands in play in 2014, a lot happened since then. For example, Russia annexed Crimea. You make it sound as if Ukrainians as a whole are undividedly pro-Russian.

Edit: this article gives more context for the whole situation back then: https://www.reuters.com/article/world/leaked-audio-reveals-e...



"This is gonna be great television I will say that." - Donald Trump's last words as the confrontation ended. Just insanity.


His disconnection with reality is expected. I would be surprised if he understood or had any empathy to realities he doesn't conceive. The real change was in the GOP allowing and buying in on all of these.


They told themselves they could contain him, they thought he was like them, cultivating an insincere public persona to accumulate power. He had the juice and the ability to perform jedi magic over their constituents. They rationalized the indefensible to win elections.

None of them care about anything except power and leveraging it. Politics ain't bean bag and all of that. It's revealing to anyone actually paying a modicum of attention that isn't blinded by partisan hate.



It's like the inverse of Gil Scott Heron's "The revolution will not be televised"

"The Nuclear Holocaust Will Be Televised"

There's even a trailer from the Reagan era: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBtu0gr6JqM

But it seems the format is going to be in the style of reality TV shows from 10-20 years ago.



There’s even the CNN tape for the occasion.


Sadly, “Trump takes military action against Ukraine” was on my Bingo card for this administration. We’re getting there, aren’t we?


Probably not. The worst thing America could do is unfreeze Russia's assets and give them back a few billion dollars to fund the war effort. Europe wouldn't permit America to join on the side of a Russian coalition, and America's Navy isn't capable of European operations without Europe's support. We could realistically offer limited air support and strategic nuclear threats, but Russia already has both of those.


US cannot unfreeze anything, because all the frozen funds are in the EU.


Funding secured.


gold :-)


The good news is that the Biden administration put most of the frozen Russia assets under European control, anticipating this kind of risk, but of course that doesn't mean Trump can't attempt to pressure Europe here.


Not likely. But by withdrawing military aid they're basically giving Ukraine to the Russians.


Let's hope the EU countries fully support Ukraine.

Too angry to type more.



if EU was going to do that Zelenskyy the beggar wouldn't be begging us to save him


Asking for assistance from a country that has stood by you since the war started and also offering them a deal for minerals makes you a "beggar"?


He looks like a dog, it was embarrassing


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You create an account for this?


Is this a serious question? From whose viewpoint are you asking?


So… Where are we marching?


I find it utterly bizarre that some Americans seem to be under the delusion that the US ceasing its military support for Ukraine will somehow save lives. It is the same kind of delusion that causes President Trump to list off the US presidents under which Putin has disregarded its negotiated deals with, but obviously that would never happen under his watch.

I suspect that this exchange will become an infamous moment in history. Utterly shameful.



I mean a deal where the fighting stops could save lives.


If the US stops support would the war end? I don't really think so, but maybe. If it did, though, I would guess lives would be saved. That doesn't seem like a delusion.


How? If all support for Ukraine crumbles and russia just plows ahead, do you think the ukranian population would be safer?

The only "less lives" approach would be if russia retreats in an agreement to keep the previous separatist regions they annexed while accepting some sort of buffer inside Ukraine from them on, which Zelensky would agree in the form of bases or nato membership. Which Russia will never go for.



I don't think anyone has made the simplest observation, which is that Zelenskyy is not groveling because the survival of his country now depends on his credibility with other allies. Seriously - why would he want to send submissive signals?


Especially important as Ukraine (unfortunately) only received help because they managed to defend themselves.

If they had rolled over for the Russians, like Trump wanted Zelensky to do, they wouldn't had received the support they have.

No, the reality is that to receive help you need to be strong yourself.



Man, as an European I have the hope that this utterly bizarre and embarassing spectacle yesterday is finally waking us up and we start taking our fate into our own hands. Personally, I would do without a lot of things instead of having to watch europe being paraded around by a narcissist.


We’re only weeks since Trump taking office. Watching the full video, I think to me it seems there’s a mismatch in the response from HN and the reality of what happened there and is happening with the war. Ultimately, people are dying everyday in this war. I wonder if it’s in the best interest of those still alive to continue fighting and dying, or settling with territory being lost. If there really is no end in sight, why continue forcing people to die.

I like to think more about the individuals than anything else. If it really is possible to no longer have them die over things they realistically won’t get back, and it’s possible to freeze the progress of Russia with where it is today, isn’t making the war stop the top priority?



Russia has broken every ceasefire/treaty so far. Lets assume Ukraine is fine conceding everything they have lost to date, who will then enforce the next treaty? Ukraine, I think correctly, knows any treaty without strong enforcement provisions is simply giving Russia time to rearm.

Finally, if making the war stop is a top priority, who is putting the pressure on Russia? Russia can pack up and go home at literally any time and stop the war. Putting the entirety of this situation from starting the war to blocking peace on Zelensky/Ukraine might as well be direct talkings points from Putin himself.



Yes, I share the same concerns. Frankly I’m not sure what can be done on long term security when Russia has demonstrated its willingness to threaten nuclear weapons. I wonder if Putin being no more would result in a different Russia, one which isn’t focused on expansionism.

I don’t think this is the intention of the U.S. negotiating a peace deal, but a pause could give time to let Ukraine and europe to build up arms. I might be wrongly optimistic but I suspect a build of arms across europe would result in a more powerful force than Russia alone.



The only permitted take is that Ukraine should fight until the rest of their men are gone along with the remainder of their territory.


That was the most shameful thing I’ve ever seen as an American.

Where is Congress? This needs to stop; impeach Trump already!



Not gonna happen, the only hope is his approval ratings tank and he decides to chill out, stop trying to be king, play golf for 4 years, and step away beloved by his cult.


This could be a good thing. Uniting Europe possibly

Mr Trump is not wrong IMO that Europe has depended too much on the USA for too long.

Europe is divided, both between and within nations, this might be the impetus needed to reverse that. Unite them in their diversity, and take their place in the world



I'm not clear on why Trump threatened that Zelensky was risking a world war.

It seems to me that Trump and Putin are effectively allies at this point so what exactly would trigger World War 3 in his mind.



Horrific diplomacy failure. These are usually pleasant photo ops because the work was already done behind the scenes. Incompetence is on full display. Story I understand is the Rubio thought he had a deal, but clearly didn't. JD Vance should be kept out of the room, he is out of his depth and his behaviour abhorrent. And Trump's kiss the ring makes me sick to stomach. Why America wants a King after a bloody revolution to get rid of the last one is puzzling to say the least.


The most important defense that the EU can make at this moment is to block off Russian access to European Internet and regulate all social media to stop Russian propaganda

This is the culmination of 10 years of hybrid warfare via disinformation and propaganda.



Isn't there anyone in the White House who makes sure Trump isn't inventing numbers? Put the actual dollar amount on a cue account if needed so he doesn't repeat the 350 billion again (of which most stays in the US anyways).


It's interesting, but not entirely surprising, that Trump is kowtowing to Putin and giving Putin everything he wants. Could it be something to do with the Kompromat the Kremlin reportedly has on him?

Putin would like to restore the former Soviet union, he said that the collapse of the Soviet union was a catastrophe. The war in Ukraine is the beginning of Putin trying to rectify this. So if he wins the war in Ukraine, about half of Europe will likely be next. He will likely want to move fast, not waiting 4 years for Trump to be possibly voted out and possible US opposition after that.



<< Trump is kowtowing to Putin and giving Putin everything he wants.

Alternative interpretation:

Or.. you know, focusing on the interest of US, which does not automatically mean sending unlimited amount of money/gear/intelligence to Ukraine. After all, Ukraine is not part of NATO. There are no obligations to follow here. And Russia as an unfriendly country in future conflicts may complicate things further.

Yes. There is an argument to be made about what happens afterwards in baltics, but those countries are part of NATO, which is a different consideration.



>There are no obligations to follow here

The US did talk Ukraine into giving up its nukes in return for helping to protect it. Bit of an oopsie by Ukraine there.



Is it an accurate presentation of facts or a talking point? The nukes were not 'theirs' to begin with.


It's a simplification of reality. The nukes belonged to the Soviet Union of which Ukraine was a part. Mearsheimer to his credit said at the time Ukraine should keep some so as to avoid the situation we now have.


I would have expected Trump to stand up for the interests of the US and all those things.

But Trump went a bit further here - praising Putin, making Putin out to be the victim and seemingly mocking those who see Russia as the bad guy .

Also, the fact he parroted many of the Kremlin talking points speaks for itself.

Interests of the US? More like the intersts of Putin's Russia.



<< Interests of the US? More like the intersts of Putin's Russia.

I will attempt a good faith response here. Have you considered the possibility that there is a non-zero amount of issues, where interests of US and Russia are aligned? Do you think you could name one such issue? I am asking mostly to see if you can take consider the question before you answer reflexively.



What is actually the projected end-game of people who support this war? It's been three years and ukraine has struggled to make any significant progress at retaking its territory. It should be clear by now that they can't return to their 2014 or even 2022 borders unless the countries backing them become directly involved in a potentially apocalyptic war against Russia, and I haven't seen anybody who wants that, not even the countries clutching their pearls over this incident.

The only three possible outcomes at this point are total Russian victory, peace treaty, and WW3. It's not realistic to think Ukraine will ever bring Russia to its knees on its own.



I think what you're missing is that a peace treaty isn't possible without enforcement. Russia won't agree to any enforcement provisions and Ukraine won't agree without enforcement provisions.

Letting Russia take Ukraine puts all of Eastern Europe at risk and may get us closer to WW3 than simply continuing to support Ukraine from afar with the added benefit of burning down Russia's ability to wage war.

If this does ultimately lead to a large conflict it is NOT because Ukraine didn't roll over, it's because of Russia's actions over the last decade.



No, Russia's economy is hurting bad and it's entirely reasonable to say that a fourth option is the collapse of the Russian economy and military.


Yeeeeaah, I really can't see that happening. Ukraine has a much smaller economy, a much smaller pool of conscripts, and less foreign assistance. Ukraine gets more free money and supplies from other countries but Russia is actually getting shock troops from North Korea and that's what Ukraine needs more than anything to win a war of attrition against a significantly larger country.

Putin is an asshole, he doesn't care about sanctions and tbh I'm not confident the Russian people do either. Europe, despite their harsh rhetoric, is still addicted to Russian exports, and their hypocrisy is so bad that there are actually Russian pipelines in Ukrainian territory which the Ukrainians are afraid to sabotage because they don't want to piss off the people who are funding their war.

Maybe if Prigozhin didn't get cold feet during his coup attempt it could have ended the way you describe but I don't think that's the sort of thing that anybody can count on happening again.



If the west crank up things already happening - stopping Russia's oil trade and blowing it it's refineries etc - it would probably get so weak economically that it couldn't really continue the war. At that point you could make a deal, or maybe the Russian government would change or decide it has better things to do.

The trouble with just signing a piece of paper is Putin tends to just ignore those.



I suppose that could work assuming the russkies don't respond to a direct attack on their refineries by escalating to nuclear war, but even so nobody's even trying that. Ukraine is too busy fighting for survival with what scarce resources they have, and none of their backers are even talking about joining the war as true allies.

My point is, it seems like everybody at some subconscious level sees this as Ukraine's problem alone, because even their most ardent supporters aren't treating Putin ss the grave international threat they call him rhetorically. Trump's being pragmatic by trying to end the war on terms that can at least preserve what's left of Ukraine as an independent nation.



"You don't ask me with respect..." - https://youtu.be/7j_3Secty54


De Gaulle said that in the matter country's foreign policy, there is no friend or even allies but only common goals.

Pushing back on Putin has never been one of trump goal, he'd rather have the entire Europe Russian than having to deal with that.

Instead he is much more focused on fighting China, which is fair.

However, Russia has been a long time China allies. They have mutual border, mutual goals (the first one being to end American domination on the world).

Wouldn't helping Putin, by making Ukraine armless and easy target, be then also helping china indirectly ?

I don't see how, all things considered, it even helps push trump agenda on fighting china.



You're making an assumption that Trump has any clue what he's doing. He barely understands first order effects, much less second or third order.


What’s bad is the example Trump is setting for future presidents of United States. Also another worse thing is he is installing all yes man/woman who seem clueless in their posts


Trump and his administration seem hell bent on undoing everything that's held the world together since WWII. We in the US are going to pay the price, as we lose the privilege of having the US Dollar as the world's reserve currency, while at the same time our nations institutions are destroyed from the inside in a deliberate act of sabotage.

We're going to see our standard of living drop by 80% or more because of this. 8(



I don't think it'll be that bad unless they manage nuclear war. It's kind of a shame though.


I’m split on this. Part of me is very sad because Ukraine has gotten such a raw deal, not just recently but historically. They’ve always been trampled on as a fairly poor place. And it’s a bit classless to spit on Zelensky as he’s holding out his hat for donations, as he must.

But I also believe Ukraine is increasingly a distraction from more pressing concerns, both domestically and abroad. Frankly, there will probably come a day when the current world manufacturing superpower (China) decides to throw their weight around. And that day may be very soon.

As Americans I think there is a huge amount of hubris preventing us from seeing how vulnerable we really are. Outspending adversaries on military should be seen as weakness, not a strength, especially when we consider 1) the fact that American manufacturing is more expensive 2) a lot of spending is maintaining legacy systems 3) an adversary will likely not try to compete in conventional means 4) China graduated more STEM majors than all US majors combined which drives down costs 5) China has recently become the number 1 car exporter 6) US payments on debt now exceed defense spending for the first time in ~90 years despite not even being at war 7) almost all chips are currently made in Taiwan.

(If anyone doubts this, they should watch videos of Chinese drone shows, and imagine it being scaled up 100x.)

And just to double down on the hubris bit. Every single time I see some discussion of research that came out of China I see the same old tropes: they can’t innovate, it’s stolen IP, it’s low quality. Things that are either false or irrelevant. It didn’t matter that the Soviets stole blueprints to nuclear weapons.



I don't think it's a distraction so much as rather important to detering China. If Putin can invade Ukraine and get away with it China will assume it can do the same for Taiwan and other territory it wants. If the west stops Putin, China will think twice.


What would actually deter China is strategic certainty that invading Taiwan 1) won’t work and 2) will have severe geopolitical consequences. Neither of those are true now.


Reuter's timeline: https://www.reuters.com/world/ukraine-russia-war/trump-zelen...

To state the obvious, the Trump administration is more interested in profiting from a minerals deal than supplying any actual security guarantees. The Russian Federation has proved time and time again that they will breach any peace agreements (as occurred with the current invasion which breached agreements bartered after the annexation of Crimea) made with Ukraine for piecewise annexation of their neighbors, at any price to their own soldiers and people.

True lasting peace, is avoiding further steps to another world war. It takes hardly a high school education in history to recognize those preliminary warning signs in Russia's behavior. A common talking point that the Trump administration seems to use, is that they are doing precisely that- preventing a world war- by refusing to further arm and protect Ukraine with weapons and security guarantees- however this refusal does just the opposite, and this minerals deal really has nothing to do with Ukraine's security or interests. The devil is in the details, and the Trump admin refuses to detail how the minerals deal would protect Ukraine or how they would respond to further territorial incursions if the deal were to be signed.

Aside from all this, of course there's a lot of topical nonsense in how Trump and Vance conducted themselves, with shouting and lecturing at Zelensky, but these are all distractions, and they have almost no substance or details to back their broad claims about how or why this conflict started and what would end it. Scapegoating and bullshitting seems to be their game, but luckily Zelensky both asserted himself where possible and kept a relatively calm, but brutally honest, demeanor.

Because the security threats to America would come a bit later, likely in the form of Russia marching into a NATO country, Americans will believe what they want about the conflict. Trump makes this especially easy with his false and misleading oversimplifications. It is sad to think that a proportionally small sacrifice by the American taxpayer to help a country like Ukraine has been sized up as unworthy collateral for saving lives and fighting fascism.



Alex Krainer, a tinfoil hat geopolitical analyst, has speculated that the pre-election meetings between Zelensky and Trump included talks of a mineral rights deal, but that the recent UK/Ukraine "100 Year Partnership" deal signed on 16 Jan includes secret mineral rights concessions to the UK in return for military assistance — exactly the rights Trump wanted and now can't get.

It would explain why Britain has recently (15 Feb and after) been so public with plans to send troops to Ukraine.

It also explains why Trump is so eager to undermine Zelensky's democratic legitimacy, as it would invalidate Zelensky's deal with the UK and allow the US a chance at the mineral rights again.

Krainer also speculates that Trump's political theater over mineral rights is raking Zelensky over the coals as retribution for doing a deal without the US, and trying to get Zelensky to spill the beans on the secret terms of the deal already done with the UK.



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Europe being carved up? My man over there has single handedly given new life in the European defense sector, with other countries joining nato


It depends how well European countries are able to defend themselves (and their political systems) from attack and corruption by Russia. So far, IMO, results have been mixed. I am hopeful for Europe though.


It will be tough. America is now trying to export American-style fascism to Europe as well. So we have a new enemy, a former friend who has betrayed us. As I say, it'll be tough.


Just as well that the UK's nuclear weapons can be fired without American permission, ..., oh wait ...


If it comes to that, the current global society is done and gone, and quite possibly humanity with it. No way the UK doesn't have control over their own devices though.


You might want to do a bit of research there before commenting further.

France built an independent system, the UK did not.



What should I be looking at?

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/uk-nuclear-deterr...

"Although the UK’s nuclear deterrent is assigned to the defence of NATO, we retain full operational control over its use. Only the UK Prime Minister can authorise the use of our nuclear weapons, even if used as part of a wider NATO response."

It's also just not at all believable that they would not be able to push their own buttons. Why would it be set up that way? And what would prevent fixing it even if it were?



Interesting choice of words, only the UK Prime Minister can authorise the use of our nuclear weapons does not preclude "someone else" having a veto. When these Oxford & Cambridge educated civil servants write slightly convoluted text, it pays to inspect it carefully.


It’s just a conspiracy theory. Of course the UK can launch its nukes.


You do realize Russia is _puny_ in all other aspects expect corruption and lack of value of human life where they are champions.

The reason Russia has succeeded so far is because most parties have _minimized_ their engagement with the conflict _and Russia is still loosing_.

The only reason Ukraine’s flag is not in Kremlin is because Russia has nukes.

And anyone can get nukes.



Do you think maybe calling their citizens Orcs and insane rhetoric against Putin aka Hitler 2.0 might cause a great deal of tension for a country with nuclear weapons? What is your cool and calm strategy for this world dilemma?


Nobody's firing nukes any time soon, everybody loses when they start flying and you can't rule over a desert.


Exactly. Nukes are the ultimate guarantor of piece.


While being smarter than Trump is a very low bar to take, Putin and Dugin are not the sharpest pencils in the box either.

Smart people are often beaten into submission by bullies. Being smart is not everything there is.



Underestimating your enemies is a common mistake. Not only are Trump, Putin, and Dugin all intelligent people, they all have access to much more and much better intelligence than you or I.

Trump especially irks me, because he's calculated his entire persona to appear somewhat dumb, and it works. He's not an idiot at all, and people espousing that view are falling for propaganda.



It feels like Vance is playing the part of Edith Bolling Galt Wilson in protecting Trump from the 25th amendment (then Article II), but he absolutely sucks at it.


Zalensky is right. Russia started it, if we have to destroy the planet with nukes and kill every single European of fighting age, we can never, must never, surender to Putin. And think of the great innovations in murderous drones we will get out of an ongoing multi-decade prixy war, all that ingenuity and Ukranian expertise in killing can be ours for very, very low cost! Beginning to wonder about Trump's priorities.


I know this will get lost, but regardless-

Read the comments on this thread.

Then read this post by Dan, where he explains why the post isn't ranked higher: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43212835

TLDR: lots of flags on this thread, despite the overwhelming number of comments that tend in one direction.

Think about that.



Sone real tech news here


HN isn't just for 'tech news' - https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.

More explanation elsewhere in this thread: https://inference-review.com/article/time-travelers



Maybe dumb question, but I asked ChatGPT search and didn't get a straight answer, so:

Why is Russia at war with Ukraine?

ChatGPT tells me it's because of "western alignment". Trump told reporters 1m people died. Seems a bit excessive to me for political ideas.. I'd have an easier time believing it's a resource conflict or some oil field being liberated or wtv.



Broadly speaking, it’s because Putin is pissed that the Soviet Union fell (he lived through it as a KGB member in East Berlin), and Russia culturally originated around Kiev (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kievan_Rus%27), so he sees it as part of what should be the Russian empire. There are some important industries and resources in Ukraine, plus better access to the Black Sea. Ukraine’s orientation towards the EU and NATO is seen as an ideological and military threat. But the perceived humiliation of the fall of the Soviet Union, not being respected in the Western world, and trying to undo that and restore Russia’s glory, seems to be what is driving Putin the most.


We're 3 years in and I have zero idea. Nothing comes to mind except for plain old expansion for the sake of expansion.


It's complicated because you hear so many different stories and versions as to why. My take is they regard Ukraine as basically Russian land and put up with Ukraine being independent when they had a pro Russian government but got annoyed when the Ukrainians, with American help, overthrew that and went western democracy.

But it's also part of a long pattern - over the last 500 years Russia has expanded at an average rate of 50 square miles per day by invading other people's countries and the like - it what they've always done. I'm not sure if that isn't a bit out of date these days - the whole imperial invasion thing. I mean I'm a Brit and we used to do it and had the world's largest empire but it's all a bit passe now. (50sq mile link https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/ukraine/2016-04-18/r...)

By the way re the history, Ukraine, governed from Kyiv is basically the same as Kievan Rus, also similar land governed from Kyiv and existed long before Moscow or Russia were invented. Muscovy, the bunch out of Moscow, were a warlike lot and stole the Rus bit of the name and much of the land. So when you here Putin going on about it not being a real country and just a bit of spare land belonging to Russia, it's not quite true.



Historical: Putin longs to rebuild Russian empire

Strategic: oil, minerals, Black Sea port access. Russia's great strategic weakness is that it doesn't have any warm water ports, which drastically limits its naval reach and ability to shape trade.



to rebuild USSR aka russian empire. That includes EU "eastern block" countries.


This is an absurd claim


It surprises and scares me how few people in the West understand this. It's because staring wars is how dictators cling to power, plain and simple. This is obvious to anyone who follows Russian politics. There's even a term "Crimea consensus", referring to the fact that annexing Crimea made Putin super-popular again after he angered people with his clumsy return to the presidental chair. In 2022 his rating was at all-time low again.

Yes, it's actually a bit more complex than that. Russia never stopped being an empire, it's codifed in their culture in many ways. Yes, there are personal inclinations of Putin. He said in his first ever interview when he got some minor post on SPB government that the Bolsheviks' greatest mistake was giving autonomy (however nominal) to the soviet republics. So those are the reasons too. What's not a reason in any way though is geopolitics. Feeling threatened by NATO, needing this or that resource, access to this or that body of water, fighting Western colonialism (!) - those are all bullshit reasons invented for propaganda.



As an American, I'm disgusted.

Not only does Ukraine deserve respect and support, but the US's elected crazies are damaging the country. Soft power is real, and smart, power



As an American I will have a hard time forgiving anyone that voted for Trump. He telegraphed his sick obsession with Putin and still was voted in. I am sorry.

I hope we still have a country 4 years from now. He is a saboteur as is Musk and both should be considered foreign agents IMO. Yet they are running the country. Makes me want to vomit.



Found the following insightful:

Lines on Maps - Oval Office Meltdown: The Trump-Zelensky Split, Europe's Response, and the Fate of the Ukraine War

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MD_AfqDfPek



I try to look at actions and not words. Trump/Musk have not shut off Starlink yet, but maybe this manufactured confrontation is a prelude to that? It also seems to me that Europe could adequately support Ukraine in defending itself, so maybe it matters less what America thinks and more what Europe thinks.


There's people who want all SpaceX contracts terminated.

Guess what this does?https://www.usaspending.gov/award/CONT_AWD_HC101324F0143_970...



On the bright side, the more clearly Trump displays his gross incompetence, the more quickly he will be deposed.


I think most Americans have already made up their mind on Donald Trump. Nothing will matter until individuals' personal financial situations are affected.


Just wait a month when the jobs report comes out.


This entire administration is shameful, I hope that this haunts them, what they did to Zelensky is unbelievable.


Shame on republicans who voted for Trump. Why are none of you confronting him when he claims insane shit like "Ukraine started the war"? Have you gone full doublethink? Or are you actually just fine with allying with fascist Putin against Ukraine and Europe?


> Why are none of you confronting him when he claims insane shit like "Ukraine started the war"?

Unfortunately, many of them have eaten enough propaganda that they agree. I have an uncle who genuinely believes that, even if he can't fully explain how it could make sense.



The people of the US do not stand behind trump. Trump's word is not the word of the American people. Zelensky might not have Trump's support, but know that he does have overwhelming support from pretty much everyone else aside from the Trump clan.


I'm very curious what the end game is for the US. They've basically blown up the world order, given up on being the defender of democracy... This will also hurt US soft power immensely, I can't imagine anyone feels great about doing business with any American entity any more.

Now China looks reasonable, as the main superpower that isn't perpetrating or supporting an active all-out war... They might even get Taiwan and others on their side without firing a shot.

This will unite Europe, all Macron and Merz have to do is limit migration and stay reasonably centrist and they'll both limit Russian influence and be the new leaders of the free world, along with Poland, Italy, the Nordics, etc...

It's also a strange situation for Americans I'm sure. On one hand, I can understand why Americans voted for Trump. The left ignored the working classes, pushed way too hard on extreme left social issues and didn't have coherent domestic policies. On the other hand, I really doubt anyone, even most conservatives, want to be part of a Russia-NK Axis and be enemies of the entire free world. How is the CIA and others going along with this?

We live in interesting times...



If I were American, I’d be sick with shame. As a European, I’m disgusted—not just by your leadership, but by your silence.

Your country is spiraling into disgrace, yet you sit there, watching, complaining online, doing nothing. Where is your outrage? Where are the millions in the streets forcing change? By staying silent, you are complicit. Just like the Russians who let Putin tighten his grip for decades, you are letting a clown dismantle your democracy in real time.

History won’t just judge you—it will condemn you. Stand up, or accept your place among the cowards who let their nations rot.



> Where are the millions in the streets forcing change?

Rioting in the US is viewed extremely unfavorably in the US. The country is so geographically dispersed that it's hard to significantly interrupt commerce. Also, because of the large rural/urban political divide in the US, the places these protests take place would largely be attacking their own voter bases.

There is lots of political mobilization in the US. Marches, protests, and most importantly there is a lot of citizen funded legal challenges. But at the end of the day, democracy does not have a lot of natural protections if the people of the country democratically choose to end democracy.



> Rioting in the US is viewed extremely unfavorably in the US

Unless storming the Capitol to disrupt a democratic election.



It was viewed overwhelming negatively by most of the country, and was a big part of the following campaigning that resulted in a lot of Republicans losing seats in the house.


As with so many things in the US, civil disobedience is only considered a problem when "the left" does it.

See the police response to BLM vs the January 6th rioters.



I get what you’re saying, but Europe has its disgraces as well and I don’t see anyone rioting in the streets en masse. Don’t get me started on the UK, where core rights like freedom of speech/expression are a joke, yet I don’t see anyone rioting. I mean, maybe they ARE rioting, but any news about it being censored.


There are protests in Germany against AFD, Slovakia against the pro-Russia prime minister.


Should've seen Athens today.


> Europe has its disgraces as well

The "whataboutism" game doesn't work here, because none of the pro-Ukraine Western countries is currently even remotely as chaotic, clownish, cruel, capricious, and conspicuously corrupt as the Trump administration and their broligarchs.

And other comments have already pointed out that Europeans are protesting.



>but by your silence

What qualifies as not that? I've said my peace, my ability to deploy millions is limited.



The problem is both US political parties would strongly oppose any attempt to "get people in the streets", making it very challenging for any such protesters.


We have too much to lose to do anything. It's not until we've lost a great deal of our freedom, our wealth, the basic guarantee of order in our land, that the formerly comfortable will finally act up.


This summer is going to be spicy. Just you wait.


As an American, I share your disgust.

The reality here is that a plurality of American voters chose Trump, and they still approve of the job he's doing (though that's dropping fast): https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/approval/donald-t...

I know this is exactly what Trump wants, but I don't know that I have the energy to continue to try and convince my fellow Americans that their demigod will destroy this country. They voted for this, they got it, now let's see how far they're willing to let this country fall before they change their tune.



> They voted for this, they got it

"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." -- H.L. Mencken



We don't have a good sense as a nation of the consequences of our actions. People don't believe things can get very bad here in the US. Zelensky said it himself, we feel safe because we have a big ocean separating us from the war. I'm afraid we won't learn without getting our ass kicked.


> I'm afraid we won't learn without getting our ass kicked.

Thats like truism. I don't see any country is learning before that.



Well, I'm also European and I am disgusted by our leaders as well.

What have they been doing? Why are our soldiers not defending Ukraine already? Why do you assume that we are any better?



that's pretty simple.. nobody wants to provoke them into using their nukes. It's also still likely a hard sell to the populations of various countries.


As a European, I’m disgusted—not just by your leadership, but by your silence.

I'm quite pleased with everything that's going on. The lesson from Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan (Soviets), Afghanistan (US), and Iraq is that there is never going to be a good time to leave but you need to leave as soon as possible before things get worse.

There's the counterargument that Hitler could have been stopped early during/after Czechoslovakia but you can't waltz into every conflict just because it might turn into WW2 later.



This is not about not going into the conflict. Trump is seemingly siding with Russia while undermining allies and calling Zelinsky dictator.


the US was just enjoying its favorite hobby of funneling US and EU tax monies into arms production. idk what Putin promised that was more satisfying than that, but no one was being sent across the Atlantic to fight. you'd think the US would be happy enough watching Russia waste lives and money just like the they did in the Middle East.


A finally forced myself to watch the clip. What an absolute disgrace Trump and Vance are.


"Somewhere Europe has to grow out of the mindset that Europe’s problems are the world’s problems but the world’s problems are not Europe’s problems." European elites and American military industrial complex inching towards Russia using NATO is the problem. World won't go to war over this because unlike World War I and II, rest of the world are not Europe's colony. American people elected Trump to say the same. They too are unwilling to fight for the European elites. This is not world's problem. Only EU have to handle it.


Wow this is just so sad and shameful. Zelensky obviously understands the position he and his country are in and even with all that disrespect from the US leadership he’s obviously trying so hard to maintain composure and do what’s best :(


Donald Trump is no greater ally to Putin than a trained asset would be.

Vance is like Ben Shapiro with a little bit more intelligence.

Zelensky had some translation issues, perhaps, and said something in a strange way. But Trump's outburst was like that of a run-of-the-mill dive bar moron, not a diplomat.

Zelensky's interview with Bret Baier was also subtly hostile. Z never said the words "apologize" or "sorry" but did express regret that the conversations happened as they did in public. He was repeatedly grateful of the support of the US and was showing quite a lot of understanding.

The arguments of the Fox panel, if you cut through the lines, is that it is Zelensky's fault for not knowing how to handle the intellectual child that is the US president.



Like a misbehaving child called into the principal’s office


Thank god that finally we're going to stop sending hundreds of thousands of men into a meat grinder for no purpose. Ofc, Trump is doing this in great part because he personally hates Zelensky and Biden. He's doing what he did to Obama and just unwinding everything his predecessor did. He also correctly ascertains that this is a huge waste of money that is counterproductive.

All the liberal cold warriors that wanted to bleed russia made Russia stronger by doing this. Not that I care either way, but it's funny to watch these war hawks have it blow up in their face, not that they really care since they are eating charcuterie at DC lawn parties with their Raytheon bucks.



Russia will just attack again. Ukrainans and their own poor and non-ethnic-Russian population are just subhumans to them and they literally don't care about any deaths.


The US was helping Ukraine because they were fighting against Russia. It was a proxy war in the US's interest.

Withdrawing from it, therefore, by prior US foreign policy, would be against US interests.

We'll find out eventually.



The US has an effective way of ending that: more, heavier weapons, no restrictions, and a promise to place peace keepers. Instead, they chose to infuriate a key player. Cui bono?


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if Ukraine wants to end the war they need to defeat Putin if Russia wants to end the war they need to leave

why are you blaming Ukraine



Or they can negotiate for peace. This is how most wars end. It is also how this war will end. If only the 2022 Istanbul negotiations were supported by the west instead of being undermined. If I were Ukrainian I would be furious with the western 'allies', essentially lying about unconditional support and promoting an impossible outcome for their own geopolitical interests. Utterly shameful.


The Ukraine you refer to was literally just a Western-backed coup in 2014, doesn't exactly inspire confident in any democratic process. NYTimes admitted this. Kind of a bold move if you ask me. I wonder if Russia installed their own envoy in Canada whether the Americans might make a move on their northern neighbours, as well? That's why we blame Ukraine.


This is not the case. A Russian puppet took over the Ukrainian government on promises of aligning Ukraine with Europe and was removed by the Ukrainian people when it was clear he had lied. He then fled to Russia, where he belongs. The legislature did the equivalent of impeachment+removal to remove him from office.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych



The guy who literally was laying his life down to defend his nation, and who has hundreds of his fellow citizens die every day

vs

guys who are just afraid of the compromat that Putin has on them.



Donate donate to Ukraine https://u24.gov.ua/ Trump is simply abject


I guess tomorrow Trump calls Zelensky a dictator again.


Hard not to think Zelensky wants Ukraine war to leak out to Europe. This was the case when Ukrainian army shot rockets above Polish terriory resulting in two deaths, Ukraine never apologized. Same as they proclaimed Stepan Bandera their national hero, honestly crimes committed by germans during wwII were nothing compared to what UPA led by Bandera did. I hope this war will be soon over.


It seems the S-300 missile hitting a grain silo in Poland was an accident, and the Banderea stuff was a while ago.


Crimes against humanity never expire. And Zelensky's attitude towards allies earned him well deserved response.


Watching this makes me embarrassed to be an American. Totally disgusting. Of course, we deserve what we're getting... we collectively voted for this again.


I've wholeheartedly disagreed with a lot that past administrations, especially liberal administrations, said and did. But I don't recall ever being so absolutely disgusted by them as I am today.

We are currently watching the downfall of the current world order and the US as a bastion of democracy. And I'm not exaggerating. Trump is aligning himself with Russian interests. He even had a Russian state media representative at that meeting. Rome had to fall, I'm sorry I'm living to see it.

Trump, you'll never read this, but I need to say it anyway...there aren't words to describe how despicable you are. Tyrant wannabee and greedy coward. You are selling the American soul to cozy up to a murder and rapist. Those who voted for you have no excuse. You were always clear about the kind of man you are.



We'll see in what way Putin will respect Trump. I wouldn't be surprised if they both want nothing to do with the US anymore.


I don't agree with the execution, but here's what I think this is what Trump is really trying to do:

Right now, it's basically the US vs Russia and China.

But what Trump is betting on is that it could be the US + EU + Russia vs China.

In order for this to happen though, the EU must build their own military.

The EU could and should be a superpower, but they're not. Instead they're living off the US military.

The US has been gently trying to get EU to boost its own spending. This goes as far back as Obama, and maybe even further back.

The difference is that Obama was somewhat passive aggressive with his approach. Whereas Trump is tearing off the band aid.

The public belligerence and positioning against the EU is an effort to kick them out of the parents' basement and get their act together.

Now, what is he doing regarding Canada and Mexico? That I have 0 clue. And his current stance honestly seems stupid.



> Now, what is he doing regarding Canada and Mexico? That I have 0 clue. And his current stance honestly seems stupid.

I'm sure if you keep fantasizing you'll be able to make up an excuse for that, too.



Poisoning the relationship with the EU is not going to achieve this. Oh, and I'd put money on a rapprochement with China of some sort happening.


Handy rule of thumb: Nobody plays 4d chess. Especially with Trump, what you see is what you get. He does not have a complex ulterior motive. He is capitulating to Russia because he thinks it will be better for himself personally.


> But what Trump is betting on is that it could be the US + EU + Russia vs China.

This makes no sense when put up against reality. The US is alienating the EU, throwing Ukraine under the bus, alienating NATO (major military alliance) and Five Eyes (major intelligence alliance) just so they can bring Russia in to the fold with the US and EU? How, the US won't be partnered with the EU at this rate.



The bet would be that in the long run (talking 5-10 years down the road after the EU has built their defense), the EU would still be more likely to ally with the US then China.

The current administration perhaps thinks that alienating them in the short run is the only way to get them to actually get serious about building military.



In the EU, right-wing parties continue to grow. AfD, National Front, and others have all recently scored their highest levels of support. It is not impossible to imagine that they will eventually cross the threshold to actually governing, and at that point, the EU and Trump will be much more aligned.

That's what Trump is betting on, and I'm not sure he will lose (as much as I would like him to lose).



> In the EU, right-wing parties continue to grow. AfD, National Front, and others have all recently scored their highest levels of support. It is not impossible to imagine that they will eventually cross the threshold to actually governing, and at that point, the EU and Trump will be much more aligned.

Thing about nationalist parties, the defining characteristic, is they're interested in their own nation first, not spreading nationalism as a global ideology.

If all of Europe elected nationalist parties, none of them are going to be aligned with the USA — nor, for that matter, each other — except by coincidence, and then on small and limited domains.



> But what Trump is betting on is that it could be the US + EU + Russia vs China.

And his plan to achieve that is by pissing off EU? If anything Trump has done a great job to make EU look at China more favorably.



Copy/pasting from below:

The bet would be that in the long run (talking 5-10 years down the road after the EU has built their defense), the EU would still be more likely to ally with the US than China.

The current administration perhaps thinks that alienating them in the short run is the only way to get them to actually get serious about building military.



The reason why the EU never "got serious" about building military after WW2 was mainly due to US interference.

The EU actually spends quite a lot in defense, but does so very inadequately. Each country has their own army, so there's a lot of overlap in spending. I actually think that now that the US is essentially an enemy nation, EU will be forced to integrate more, as that's the only way it can pose a meaningful response. That can only be a good thing.

Also, I think you are underestimating how much the US is alienating EU in this, and how badly it is damaging relations. Trust is something you earn in droplets but lose in buckets.



Zelensky should have asked Trump if he (Zelensky) need only lick Trump's boots or should he lick Vance's boots also.


Can someone explain what Trump means by that there’s a ”world war 3 in the pot”?


Dunno exactly but there has been WW3 talk from the start. eg https://www.ukrainianworldcongress.org/world-war-iii-has-beg...

A bit overdone in my opinion.



Trump, and his posse of minions, are just not equipped to deal with real-world events and threats. What a disgrace.


It is quite clear that Trump does not have the temperament to be a president or a leader of any kind. Clearly, he was venting and has not calculated the consequences of his words to US (and his own) interests. Also clear is the glaring absence of any counterbalancing influences from his cabinet and staff. It is so easy now for this government to make a huge mistake that can cause irreversible damage to the US and the world.


Didn’t a Trump call with the Danish prime minister also end like that?


Just a bad seed Trump is


Dear god we need to stop producing Foundation-style and other imperialist sci-fi TV. Clearly Trump and his crew are way too convinced they're emperors. Next up I guess: cruel and unusual punishments for political enemies. :|


Republicans have been delaying approval of military aid to Ukraine during the past couple of years, tying it to Israel (which itself is morally wrong). Now a Republican president has the audacity to accuse Ukraine of not winning - precisely because of lack of substantial military aid. Glad Zelensky called Trump out on his bullshit.


While this meeting went really bad, and US leadership was pathetic, US could have been the adults in the room.

Let’s look at the other side for a minute,

1/ Zelensky rejects the idea of stepping down after White House spat - Is Zelensky the right leader from here on ?

2/ Zelensky needs a bench to deal with different personalities, he showed up in his usual style hoping for compassion. Trump was clearly unkind but he should have chosen his words carefully , practiced what works for this president

3/ What is the end game for Ukraine? No one is winning this war in fact Russia has support of both China and India. They can’t expect US to go into direct conflict with Russia



My hot take on this is that Zelensky knew going in that Trump was never going to back him after the secret Russian peace talks. So he went in hard looking for the live fight they had in order to wake up European leaders for additional support.


My hot take on this

The last thing the world needs now are "hot takes."

Save the hot takes for Reddit.



Everyone knows this is just a publicity stunt and a distraction from Elon Doge. Zelenskyy is a puppet anyway. Thats why he is so confused. “You guys put me here wtf”


Who is Zelenskyy a puppet of? If you say the Americans then that meeting was a strange thing.


The meeting is a joke to distract from doge it has no bearing on anything else. Totally staged.


Eh. A lot will disagree with what I am about to type and, tbh, I am hesitant to point out the obvious, but I will do this just in case:

1. None of it should be a surprise. Policy-wise, Trump's position was very much well known at this point. 2. For Zelensky, this is actually the least bad political option at this point, which is presumably why is doing it this way 3. Note the amount of astroturfing surrounding anything related to Ukraine. It used to be that you couldn't comment on anything about Ukraine without being given 'you talk like Ukraine has no autonomy' speech. Yes. On HN too. 4. To all the hyperbolic, hyperventilating accounts out there, please stop. You are not helping your cause. If anything, you are making it worse.



Trump, Musk and Vance are a disgrace. I hope democrats turn this around. Europe stands with Ukraine


Flagged again. It's really pathetic how the Americans here are burying their heads in the sand about what their country has done to the West and how it has betrayed Western civilisation.


Bad feelings about this, bad diplomacy bad manners and usual bunch of false facts agains a leader fighting for freedom of it's own country, seems a one more act in these bad story where there are no more allies but servant. One more step in the takeover of freedom and democracy by a planetary oligarchy, beyond borders and states, this economic and financial power do not care aboout states and citizens, nor freedoms and basic rights, eg: i see so little differences betweed the power of Musk and those of Putin, at these levels the far right is only manpower.


Can we get downvoted comments look regularly and not faded completely out? Silencing people cause their opinion is not popular seems very redditish


You can always click the 'hours ago' thing on greyed comments to read them.


Agree. This graying out thing is a terrible design for contentious topics, and isn’t conducive to curious conversations.


I’d like to know who the despicable man was that asked him if he owned a suit. The definition of bikeshedding if I’ve ever seen it.


Brian Glenn, boyfriend of Marjorie Taylor Greene.


Good lord, what an embarrassment. Our president is a foolish and incompetent clown.

Obviously those idiots in the White House are provoking this juvenile confrontation as part of a move toward withdrawing US support from Ukraine.

But why? It's beyond clear that a resurgent Russia is against our interests, but here we have the President debasing himself and his country to suck up with Putin as if Putin was the leader of a superpower.

So it must be a pretty bad reason. I guess we'll eventually find out why, but it may not matter at that point.

How stupid and idiotic.



whatever you think of Ukraine or Russia, inviting an elected official of a nation under war then spouting off Russian propaganda and berating him in public is shameful. I don't think we've ever seen such non-diplomatic language and grandstanding in the oval office before, in this century at least.

Zelensky was invited to get fox news soundbites of Trump and Vance beating up on him. That's it. a sad state of affairs and a scathing indictment about how uneducated the maga base is around world affairs.



Christ that is awful. I'm not going to sugar coat it, I think Trump and Vance are disgusting people. Proper bullies, to someone in a much weaker position.


I would have phrased that differently: "lack of morals proposed as a point of vanity".

Incidentally (and for example), the "preacher" quarreled with Niall Ferguson days ago: the latter noted different times, when former conservative administrations condemned invasions, and received a reply starting with «moralistic rubbish» (or very similar words).



Utterly shameful. Do conservatives even remember when Russia was the enemy and Europe was our ally? Do you know what kind of leader Putin is? Is that what you want Trump to become? Do you no longer believe in NATO? What has become of the party of Reagan and Bush? Will you betray everything you used to claim you believed in?


Why is Europe our ally? Why is Russia our enemy? Can the entire world be divvied up between allies/enemies of America? Perhaps so, but does it need to be that way? Can countries just be, other countries? This is what I don't understand, ever since the Soviet Union fell, there hasn't really been a big bad. Capitalism won. America won. How did Russia end up being our enemies again, and will they be our enemies forever? Europe isn't our enemy today, could they be America's "enemy" tomorrow? I don't think the world is as simplistic as "friends" and "enemies".


> How did Russia end up being our enemies again, and will they be our enemies forever?

By attacking us.



How has Russia attacked the US since Putin came into power?


> Why

Ideals alignment, or lack thereof - lack of values and presence of countervalues.



>Do conservatives even remember when Russia was the enemy and Europe was our ally?

America and Europe used to have shared values, now the average American conservative is so disgusted by the T in LGBT that they consider Russia more aligned with their values.



The transsexual people didn't come from Europe. But you're right that hating them is why people support Trump.


Conservatives no longer exist. It’s MAGAs who replaced their made up god with Trump. Then there’s everyone else.


As someone who agrees with cutting back some of the funding to Ukraine, this could've done in a much more professional and diplomatic manner. Arguing in front of televisions and interrupting Zelensky is just a bad look.


Wouldn’t surprise me if this OP gets flagged or has all anti-trump comments downvoted to oblivion by bots lol


The US have lost their soul.


This was absolutely disgraceful. Another step on the road to becoming a pariah state.


Honestly, after watching the full press conference twice, I suspect this meeting will go down in history as a canonical example of "what not to do as a politician".

It seems Zelensky was unaware he's dealing with Trump, his demeanor, and his presidency. Historical this or that is not applicable when dealing with someone like him. Trump will be Trump, and nobody should expect otherwise. Always best to understand and know your counterpart.

I'm definitely no Trump supporter, but objectively, prior to the blow-up, Trump was being somewhat reasonable. Maybe the most Presidential I've seen him. He reaffirmed support for NATO, continuing sending weapons to Ukraine, and generally wanting to push efforts to stop fighting, etc. He respectfully let Zelensky speak numerous times, at length, on difficult subjects, even things he didn't agree with. He even respectfully looked at photos of prisoners offered by Zelensky. Compare that to his prior behavior with the UK Prime Minister just a day before where he cut him off numerous times forcefully.

Zelensky made numerous mistakes, emotionally reacting and replying to reporters questions when not directed towards him, adding on more grievance, and generally not being as a politician needs to be. He clearly showed why being emotionally responsive doesn't work in a debate, court, or other significant and crucial meetings.

The supposed Mineral agreement may just be a way for Trump to look like he got concessions or something in exchange to look strong to his supporters, especially compared to his favorite archrival Biden.

If Zelensky had goals/aims he wished to reach, he should've done his best to ensure the truth and his viewpoint comes through when is applicable to the question being asked, but not offered voluntarily or in conflict with his ally's statement. His demeanor from the beginning of the broadcast was already chilly and stern. He should've let any need for venting to come out AFTER the signing, at the 2nd joint press conference scheduled for later in the day.

If you watch Vance's initial statement, it was relatively supportive of Ukraine and leaned to neutral at the end. Nothing negative outright that needed to be added on to. Zelensky erred here by asking if he could ask Vance a question afterwards which led to the blow-up and escalation, and ultimately really bad decision of telling Trump he's going to feel this or that. This was a classic mistake. Question was over, should've moved on. Logically no possible statement could've helped his efforts or goals, so he only had the potential to hurt himself. Further being emotional, combative, and from Trump's perspective, relatively disrespectful did not help him. The entire over answering, and combative escalation was an emotional release from Zelensky and did not aid his aims, and ultimately hurt him.

He left in the worst possible position. He didn't get to his signing, nor his second opportunity for public statements post-signing, where he would've had clear gains, while forcefully stating whatever truths he feel were being left out or gaslit.

It seems Zelensky felt he needed to vent and express his people's pain, frustration, and anguish, but as the saying goes, time and place for everything, and unfortunately wasn't correct for either.



> The entire over answering, and combative escalation was an emotional release from Zelensky and did not aid his aims, and ultimately hurt him.

I think the reverse. It's hard to predict what Trump will do next, but the straight forward reading is his plan was always to stop supporting Ukraine. The cherry on top would have been to bully the into giving the USA minerals rights without giving much in return - certainly not security guarantees.

Which means there is nothing Zelensky could get out of the USA from that meeting. But, he still has most of the rest of the world on his side, and he could use the meeting to get them to step up to the plate.

I think he did a very good job of exploiting the dynamics of the meeting to do just that. He ensured there was absolutely no doubt what the USA's position is going forward, so there are only two outcomes: Europe either let's Russia forcibly take over another country, or they wholeheartedly commit to Ukraine defence.

Making it undeniably obvious they are between a rock and a hard place is a great way to force action.



<< He left in the worst possible position.

I wonder about that. Z was already in a pretty bad position on US-side, but this blowout only strengthens his position on EU side and in his own country. He also manages to get attention of anti-T people in US. Politically, it may have been the only 'good' move for him. If I was a leader of a country, I sure would not want to sign a 'deal' like this and be responsible for what it does to it ( which seems to suggest that Z is probably the least like other politicians, who would sell their own mother if the price was right ).

I obviously might be wrong, but I think there is a level of misunderstanding on what actually is happening.



People trivialize what went on as "needed to vent" and the like but if you look at the disagreement it was basically Trump was proposing give us a load of minerals, give your lands to Putin and in return I'll get a bit of paper from Putin saying he won't invade more. But no military guarantee to enforce that.

Zelensky says that's not good because Putin breaks all the agreements. Trump says he breaks other peoples agreements that won't happen with me. Zelensky points out the December 2019 Ukraine and Russia agreed to implement a "full and comprehensive ceasefire" happened under Trump and Putin broke it.

It was at that point Vance and Trump went all shouty because they'd been called out. If Zelesky had gone for Trump's agreement probably Trump would take the minerals, Putin would ignore the agreement and invade further and take over Ukraine in a similar way to how the Taliban made an agreement with Trump to be nice then they took over Afghanistan.

Dunno if you've seen the 2 min freeonis cartoon on the Trump deal. Quite close to the truth perhaps https://x.com/freeonis_/status/1893646996948337031



We have to separate his goals as a politician and his need for righteousness.

Trump gave him clear wins in his previous statements prior to the outburst. He committed to continued weaponry but emphasized he'd prefer the fighting to stop. He committed to NATO. He committed to getting back as much of the land, or more than you'd think, all clear progress from his previous statements and position in prior weeks.

Remember, the Mineral deal was already agreed upon. Trump, in my view, was being gracious and gave him additional wins. Had Zelensky taken those wins, NOT added an a whole unnecessary unprovoked debate with Vance, he would've ended that first meeting with those wins, EVEN with all that he said prior to the blow-up, some of which was already ungracious from Trump's perspective.

After the signing at the 2nd press conference he could've went into his whole need of security guarantees to protect their now mutual interests. He could've asked Trump to help him build "a big beautiful wall" to protect from the vicious x, y, and z, and still iterated, strongly to the press and world his needs, perspective, etc.

That's how a politician should've operated. Got there, carried out agreement which gives Trump face to his followers, taken the additional wins, and after all set, broadcast his views strongly and respectfully to the world, setting up a clear pathway to additional security in the future.

Win, win, win.

Instead he got none of that, and may even lose the current funding and support they were getting as Trump is still Trump and will likely want to extract some pain for his perceived slights.

Objectively, from a political perspective, we can see the outcome wasn't great, especially compared to the version of events that was being setup prior to the unnecessary confrontation.



The uncomfortable truth Donald Trump is finally articulating forcefully is that Europe built its welfare state under the US security umbrella, but then started getting cocky with antitrust actions, restricting American companies' access to their markets etc, while simultaneously doing next to nothing to secure their own neighborhood by investing in defense (France being a notable exception). Even if we charitably assume that they took 50 years to build back up from the destruction of world war 2, they have wasted the next 20-30 years with zero preparation or thought about their own defense.

No one did a thing when Crimea was taken. In fact, there was simply no firm response after Russia shot down the airplane brazenly. In fact, leaders such as Merkel further increased dependence on Russia by importing gas and integrating them deeply into Germany and many other EU countries' economies! Staggering incompetence and frank delusion!



I agree with your characterization of Europe's actions. However, belittling Ukraine and siding with the aggressor to make a point with europeans is not "articulating forcefully". It's bullying.


…and removed from front page…


Impeach Trump.


I find it difficult to comprehend if the billionaires do not know this. That if the Government slowly turns into an oligarchy with their help, the Government will eventually turns against them too. They cannot escape the punishment.

Humans (our leaders) have behavior that shows up when under stress or things do not go per their plan. Other countries are already noticing this about USA leaders and will not hesitate to exploit.

My prediction for the future, with a heavy heart.

- Feb/2026: China becomes #1 in technological progress. And America's relationship with former allies is irreversibly bad.

- 2027-29: Russia continues to pamper President Trump for another term. Their goal is to create anarchy in America. They succeed.



Does _anyone_ in these comments wonder what happened before JD goes off on Zelenskyy? What could have elicited such a scorched earth response from the VP while the administration is still negotiating?

That explosive clip, which I'm sure is all 99% of people have watched, happens like 40 minutes into an otherwise really quite friendly presser.

https://www.c-span.org/program/white-house-event/president-t...

Very disappointed with practically all of you.



Zelenskyy mentioned the 2019 deal that didn't work out, signed under the last Trump administration.


"Very disappointed with practically all of you"

Zelenskyy could have stood up and urinated on him and this still would have been inexcusable for any president of any party. They cannot control what others do but they can control their own behavior.

This is the most embarrassing incident in modern US history. Reuters was barred and TASS was present.



The funniest thing about all this is the absurd joke that Trump is compromised by Russia. A clearly populist and baseless propaganda to wash off the cold self-interested policies that America always (obviously) shoved down the throats of it's allies and enemies.

The inability to see how this policy benefits usa (by giving an end to a dead-end spend to a lost war, claim some losses, attempt to not go head to head with russia since china is the biggest fish to deal with right now) is trully laughable.

I know the downvotes are going to come raining, i don't care.



This was the investment of the century for the USA. Send old garbage and help with intelligence to weaken a historical enemy, revive NATO, and acquire knowledge on the frontier of warfare. The joke is on the USA, sadly.


This is only a small part of the story regarding USAs involvement in ukraine. USA heavily reacted to the pro-russian election results and put forth a full on propaganda machine to establish their pro-american government, this was of course to ensure access to ukraine's sweet sweet resources and prevent the Russian expansion of influence and resource access.


Realpolitik is not a skill common among engineers. I won't begrudge anyone their outrage.


[flagged]



I feel the same way. The in-depth and nuanced discussions are what drew me to HN in the first place. You can still find it on purely technical posts, but anything remotely political and it feels like Reddit.

I used to come to HN to learn about different viewpoints and find blindspots. But, that is no longer the case here with anything political. The majority of comments on political posts here are skin deep and anything against the grain gets silenced.



Intelligence is not domain specific. Training is.


"How dare Zelensky dress like that" yet it's totally fine for Musk to dress like that AND keep a hat on.


Things like this make it seem like China will be much more likely to try and retake Taiwan soon. Seeing things like this, it is hard to imagine that the US will help defend Taiwan by providing military aid. I can imagine that trump will try to ask for something in return first. Even something like trump asking for TSMC to be sold to trump supporters (musk and others) seems likely to happen.


The risk of China taking Taiwan by force, unprovoked, in the near future is vastly overblown, in my opinion. Everyone involved, including China, prefers the status quo. If there’s one thing to know about war, it’s that it’s unpredictable. China hasn’t been involved in a war for decades, and while its military looks good on paper, its actual performance in a real war still unknown. Failing to win or even losing a war with Taiwan would mean saying goodbye to its global dominance ambitions, and weaken Xi's leadership.

The Chinese are strategic and patient. They just need to wait a few more years until they are able to blockade the entire island for long period of time. Then they can potentially take the island without firing a single shot. they don’t need to take on this kind of risk right now.



> China hasn’t been involved in a war for decades, and while its military looks good on paper, its actual performance in a real war still unknown.

This is a very important point. While China's military is huge and technologically advanced, it is structured very differently from western powers. To reduce the risk of a military coup, the PRC split up control of air, ground, and naval units, making it difficult to conduct joint operations. China's military is also structured more like the Soviet system, where decisions are made at the highest levels of command and lower levels are given little discretion. Information going up and down the chain of command can be delayed, ignored, or corrupted. This is inefficient in peacetime and can be disastrous in combat.

In contrast, most western powers have military branches that combine air, ground, and water forces (the US Army is the second-largest air force in the world, behind the US Air Force), and they are organized in a manner that encourages joint operations. Western militaries also push decisions to the lowest level possible, allowing forces to quickly adapt to changing conditions in combat.

Lastly, China has limited air refueling capability. This reduces the range and effectiveness of their air units. To reach targets far away, aircraft must carry external fuel tanks, compromising stealth, speed, and maneuverability.

It is for these reasons that China is very hesitant to test their military against any modern force. They're trying to fix these issues, but the PRC can't adopt the west's organizational style without making themselves vulnerable to a military coup, which (so far) they absolutely refuse to do.



When you try to predict dictators' behavior usong geopolitical arguments, you make the same mistake as the people who didn't believe in the Russian invasion into Ukraine. It's the internal politics that pushes dictators to attack. And China currently follows the Russia's curve exactly there.


> And China currently follows the Russia's curve exactly there.

I still think Xi Jinping fears his people far more than Putin ever did. There's a huge powerful class of people who made tons of money off global trade in China, not just a few token Oligarchs from the 1990s like in Russia. They are the worlds factory, with a love of money and success. A global conflict is not something their people would easily stomach. While Russians seem to revel in their ability to withstand poverty and backwards systems I'm skeptical the same cultural malaise exists in China, even if they have strong national character (on paper).



> The risk of China taking Taiwan by force, unprovoked, in the near future is vastly overblown, in my opinion.

I don't share this view. China needs only a couple more (2-3) carriers and to arm enough H-6K's with anti-ship missiles to keep US capital ships at bay and they'll have all the tools they need to blockade and conquer Taiwan, perhaps without firing a shot. All of that will be in place in only a couple years; probably before Trump's term ends.



This is a supremely bad take. Completely devoid of true understanding of the situation.

Satellite imagery exposed China's has new landing barges at the Guangzhou Shipyard. These barges, equipped with 120-meter-long bridges and stabilizing pylons to land troops and vehicles on Taiwan's rugged coastlines by creating mobile ports[1]

You don't build these things if you don't need them. they have no other use except invasion.

1. https://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/military/built...



> The Chinese are strategic and patient. They just need to wait a few more years until they are able to blockade the entire island for long period of time. Then they can potentially take the island without firing a single shot. they don’t need to take on this kind of risk right now.

...On the other hand, if they want to take Taiwan with a low probability of the U.S. intervening, it's hard to imagine a better time than right now.

One of the lessons Xi might have taken from Russia's war on Ukraine is that Putin made a tactical blunder by not invading during Trump's first term. Without the Biden administration's active support of Ukraine, Putin would likely have been more successful.

It's hard to guess probabilities on these sorts of things, but the current situation makes me uncomfortable.

(For what it's worth, the likelihood of a major Cascadia fault earthquake happening during the Trump administration is something that we can estimate the probability of, and even though it's not particularly high, it also makes me uncomfortable as an Oregonian.)



There’s no harm for China to offer $2T for Trump’s permission to coercively take Taiwan by threat of blockade.

I can imagine Trump accepting that kind of deal, and it’s probably still cheaper than war for China.



Taiwan without American support is extremely easy for China to take.

There is absolutely no risk whatsoever.

Everyone noticed trump behavior with zelinsky, Chinese too. It might instead push up their agenda to conquer Taiwan quickly before trump mandate end, or at least fund him to put up with a third mandate.

Which is something he had been talking a lot.



The _continuous threat_ of China invading Taiwan benefits China more than _actually_ invading Taiwan, which, even if it could take it militarily, would have a very difficult time "maintaining the peace"--Taiwan is not HK.


Maybe it goes up 100% from 1% to 2% within the next 4 years


And what exactly is wrong with that? Asking for TSMC to be sold to Americans?


Either they get the island, or they play good guy and sell more stuff everywhere bc everyone hates America more.

Trump loves speaking about cards, Xi is the guy holding all the cards, and keep you guessing.



Astounding how quickly all the liberals here were convinced to become neocons nearly overnight out of spite over Trump. All this talk about “soft power”, one user below even bemoaned the end of the “US hegemony”. Unreal


Do you feel better about yourself now?


Where is he wrong?


On a tangent - J.D Vance is lecturing Europe about freedom of speech while AFP is ousted for writing "Gulf of Mexico" as "Gulf of Mexico."


FYI: you can end up in jail for posting "wrong" things on Facebook in Europe and the UK. And the UK doesn't permit backup encryption. As far as freedom of speech, we have a _considerable_ advantage. In some European countries (including, ironically, Ukraine) you wouldn't even be able to criticize the government the way we do it here in the US.


You can end up in jail for posting "wrong" things on Facebook in the US too.. It's just a slightly different line.

> In some European countries (including, ironically, Ukraine) you wouldn't even be able to criticize the government the way we do it here in the US.

That's not true.



> You can end up in jail for posting "wrong" things on Facebook in the US too. It's just a slightly different line.

WTF are you talking about? Unless you're referring to state secrets or CSAM, or threatening an official, there's no way you're going to jail over a Facebook posting. And it's not a "slightly different line." Those and political speech are miles apart.



Try posting death threat about the US president on FB to see if you broke the law or not, and if it can land you in jail?

> As far as freedom of speech, we have a _considerable_ advantage. In some European countries (including, ironically, Ukraine) you wouldn't even be able to criticize the government the way we do it here in the US.

I'm going to bet that you've never been to Europe and understand that each country has very different laws. Cherry picking some random issues from several different countries and making it seem like it a policy of the entire of the EU is silly.



You can criticise the government in any way you like

You can't incite violence - and if you do that when there's a riot ongoing, the punishment has resulted in jail time. Anything nazi related is also a no-go



Not true. Germany can prosecute you for "insulting the public officials", Spain - for "insulting the royal family", Poland for "offending the Polish nation", Italy for widely interpreted "criminal defamation", in Greece it is illegal to insult the president, parliament or public officials, in Ukraine saying anything against the prevailing narrative lands you directly in a torture dungeon (like what happened with Gonzalo Lira, who lived in Kharkiv, and was arrested, tortured, and left to die of pneumonia by Ukrainian SBU).


At the risk of stating the obvious, you can criticise the government without personally insulting public officals. In fact, in Germany, you can be prosecuted for insulting anyone; there is nothing special about public officials.


No slandering laws in the US? I don't think so.


This lacks any nuance.

Ukraine is in an active war. They restrict pro-enemy propaganda.

Do you think your outcome would be any different if you publicly posted pro-jihadi anti-American content on social media after 9/11?



An US citizen was tortured and effectively murdered, and you're talking to me about "nuance"? WTF?


"Teeth pulled, fingernails spiked" torture?

Or put in prison during wartime and given a "similar level of healthcare that many in the US prison system receive" torture?





Also Poland:

- for offending religious feelings



The only people being jailed in the UK are violent criminals who use racism as a pretext for violence, and peaceful protestors who threaten the profits of fossil fuel companies.


> FYI: you can end up in jail for posting "wrong" things on Facebook in Europe and the UK.

What do you mean? What can you currently not say in Europe and the UK without getting put in jail for it?



Section 127 of the UK's Communications Act 2003 makes it illegal to send e.g. tweets that are "grossly offensive" or "indecent, obscene, or menacing".

The Malicious Communications Act 1988 makes it illegal to send offensive communications.

I could go on...



Right, but that's not a free speach issue. I can critise a public officials handling of a situation, or disagree with a policy, or publicly protest a law, and not go to prison.

I cannot be wantonly offensive about a minister just because I don't like them, up to including threatening behaviour.

Free speach doesn't mean no rules/consequences.



Have you ever sent anyone a message that later turned out to be false?[1] Do you have £50k on hand to defend yourself against the accusation that you knew it to be false when you sent it? Perhaps you'd rather spend 18 months on remand in the meantime, just to be sure you don't send anything else that might also be false, while we prepare your trial (which may or may not collapse due to a complete lack of evidence).

[1] https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2023/50/section/179



You seem to have overlooked the clause 179.1.C. If I send a death threat to someone, or I incite violence by spreading misinformation (like happened in Southport) there are consequences.

That's what it covers, not a random tweet that says "I think the sky is actually green".



Would accusing you of naivete cause "non-trivial psychological harm?"


Of course not.

There are people facing genuine harassment, death threat, rape threat every day; that's what the law protects against.

If you were to dox me, threaten mine and my families life repeatedly, spread lies about me that convince other people to do the same, then that would be closer to the definition of _reasonable_ psychological harm.

We can see that scenario playing out for people right now, some of whom actually come to harm because of it.

Look at some of the hate directed at MP Jess Philips on Twitter recently based on downright lies, and the mob that stirred up as a result, as an example.



Please go on because nothing that you mentioned can send you in jail.


Oh? How about being held 18 months on remand if you don't automatically plead guilty? Perhaps read the sentencing guidelines for s127.


Section 127 is problematic and should be updated for the internet age, but it’s disingenuous to imply that any “indecent, obscene or menacing” tweet will send you to jail.

In particular, the European Convention of Human Rights article 10 guarantees freedom of expression and overrules both of those acts: “This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers.”

So really S127 and the MCA cover extreme cases of harassment or abuse. Where it’s a problem is what makes something “grossly” offensive, indecent, obscene or menacing; the interpretation is down to the layers of magistrates and judges overseeing each case.



Section 127(2): A person is guilty of an offence if, for the purpose of causing annoyance, inconvenience or needless anxiety to another, he—

  a) sends by means of a public electronic communications network, a message that he knows to be false


Again, the ECHR’s freedom of expression takes precedence. Good news! You can still post bad takes and disinformation online!

But you can’t abuse people with it. For example sending a hate mob on someone, defamation, swatting etc. (which are also covered by other acts).

And again, S127 is problematic because it doesn’t clearly define a line, it leaves it up to the courts on a case-by-case basis. Much of British common law is like that though.



I think you're grossly underestimating the CPSs ability to misinterpret legislation when it's convenient. On convictions:

> ECHR’s freedom of expression takes precedence

It takes 5 years on average to exhaust domestic remedies. Then another 3 years (on average) for the ECHR to hear your case. Needless to say, you can't afford it anyway.



I’m not underestimating, I said it was a problem several times, and also said it should be changed.

Codifying it wouldn’t help it being abused though, and the US court system also has such problems, it takes time to prove that a right is being breached and a lot is down to the judge.

Also, there are strict limits to how long you can be fined or imprisoned under S127. The majority of cases result in small fines.



But none of this is related to your opinion. So you are still free to state your opinion. Insult, defamation, misinformation and hate should not be given the protection under the umbrella of free speech.


> And the UK doesn't permit backup encryption

Apple disabled encrypted iCloud instead of giving the UK government a backdoor, or continuing to fight them on the idea in general. People in the UK can absolutely continue to encrypt my backups.



You can go to jail for criticizing the government in Russia and Belarus... Not in any of the EU countries. It's sad that you believed whoever sold you this lie.


Nice whataboutism. Europe (especially the UK) has less freedoms than the USA. That's a fact.


Whataboutism? We're literally talking about a war Russia is the aggressor in.

The US has stronger legal protection for speech and guns, but also more incarceration and police power. US incarceration rate is four times the UK rate.

Also in the UK, the speech restrictions are about stuff like glorifying terrorism, hate speech or harassment. You can criticize the government as much as you want.

In the US you're free to buy a gun, praise ISIS, and shout on the street that people should be murdered or that you love Hitler but not everyone likes that.



Hate speech isn't free speech.

Any free speech isn't necessarily hate speech but any hate speech surely isn't free speech.

There's a huge difference and that restraint is ingrained in these societies based on their past experiences.



Absolutely right! E. G. freedom of speech is in the German constitution one of the highest items. But it isn't higher than human dignity.

If you slander somebody your freedom of speech and their dignity need to be balanced.

In Germany we have chosen to rank dignity higher.



And it is as simple as that. I prefer that.


Who gets to define what constitutes “hate speech”?


Who defines what constitutes "hate speech"? Do you not recognize this as a hangar-sized backdoor?


American journalists are already getting silenced when talking up about the government. What EU county are you even talking about? Nowhere is it this bad in Europe.


Silenced as in, not given access to White House officials? Sorry but there is a difference between that and arresting people for things they say online.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/policing-speech-online-germany-...

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cr548zdmz3jo



Not given access to the White House, threatened by legal action and ousted from their journals [1]. Is that enough or should we only start to act when they get disappeared?

Also, I won't cry for the two 4chan basement dwellers from your article getting to face the consequences of their despicable actions. Sorry, our definition of free speech does not include harassment and flurries of racial slurs. Literally 1984, I know.

[1] https://www.lemonde.fr/en/about-us/article/2025/02/26/in-the...



It is undeniable that European countries police speech more heavily than the US does. They have laws on the books that plainly give them this power. They exercise this power quite regularly. Feel free to argue that it is right for them to do so, but don't muddy the discussion attempting to redefine words.


Which words did I redefine? Our free speech doesn't include hate speech but it is still called free speech in our constitution. And it's boundaries are still clearly defined, just like yours.

Also, I don't feel like there's anything to argue, look where allowing rampant misinformation and lies proliferation got your country. Your president is spitting Russian propaganda to Zalensky's face: "you started the war", "Russia will respect peace", "Europe only loaned money", etc. Your country is falling apart, not mine.



American journalists aren't being silenced. One organization is being denied access to privileged executive spaces, which I disagree with and do not believe should be happening, but you need to be more honest in the language you use to describe what is happening. If you aren't, you're just as bad as the other side.


It's quite a bit more than that: https://www.lemonde.fr/en/about-us/article/2025/02/26/in-the...

Also, let's not fall in false equivalences here.



There's nothing else in that link beside the current situation with the AP. Don't just post links; use your words, and discuss in good faith.


Which ones? You'll have to be more specific.




Oh they have to be more specific while you provide absolutely zero evidence for any of your claims?


FYI like Nazi stuff, I believe in a lot of European countries doing Nazi salutes to an audience would mean jail time, and rightfully so.


This this makes Europe less free than the USA. Again, nothing wrong with that. Just leaves a sour taste in my mouth to try to twist facts.


Freedom to promote Nazism and to promote the rehabilitation of Nazis isn't welcomed in Europe.

Yes, it might theoretically make Europe less free, and now you have the Twitter guy being a member of the US administration doing Nazi salutes and promoting far right parties.

Suddenly Hitler was a victim. Like the disregard for the thousands of young men lost on the D day and to the war, to reach this freedom you're preaching.

Yet that doesn't seem to leave any sour taste, go figure.

But I have to ask, why you want the freedom for people to be able to promote Nazism?



I want people to be free to pull in all sorts of directions. There is no exceptions for things I don't like.


But that's your problem, don't try to shove that onto others, that's why we learn History in school.

If you want people to be free to promote Nazism, xenophobia, ethnophobia, racism, etc, and you're good with that because History hasn't taught you anything, that's your problem, not ours.



Heh. No. It is officially now your problem as well. Things magically don't stop existing just because you close your eyes and pretend they are not there. And here is a very practical reasons why you DO want to be able have people openly say whatever. If you can't see it, you don't even know it is a problem that may need to be addressed. At best, it is a very naive viewpoint.


Not really my problem, as there are laws in place where I'm from.

Just because things exist doesn't mean you should have a platform to promote them, this is a very basic concept.

Doesn't look like you understand that allowing the promotion of Nazism will do exactly that, promote Nazism.



<< Doesn't look like you understand that allowing the promotion of Nazism will do exactly that, promote Nazism.

You don't have to promote, but it would help if you did not actively suppress, which ties back my original point about being able to actually track what is going on. That is the problem with some people. They really do think they can control what and how people think. No. Scratch that. They really think they can influence how they will think.

<< Not really my problem, as there are laws in place where I'm from.

There are laws here too, but lately some were rather hellbent on going around them by 'partnering'.



That makes literally no sense.

I never said that there should be an institution to promote Nazism, people will do that. Look at Twitter, look at Elon Musk, that's what's happening on that front.

Now on alternative media, like , Joe Rogan, Tucker Carlson, promoting Russian propaganda stating that Hitler was a victim, and WW2 was Poland's fault, among other absurd takes that only people with low cognitive capacity and deficient education would believe.

This absurdity is reaching people in the US, and you want to protect that - which makes me question your true intentions lmao

If you believe that you can't influence people's behavior and how they think, you have not even a basic understanding on the subject and we will end our engagement here.

If you want to promote Nazism, and protect that, you're on the right track, but don't expect people from nation with proper institutions to follow through. Just deal with that.

Hopefully X will be banned in a lot of countries, the sooner the better.



<< This absurdity is reaching people in the US, and you want to protect that - which makes me question your true intentions lmao

You can and should question it. It is the whole point. I actively encourage that. This is how we grow some basic common sense and critical thinking skills. As for my intentions, at best I can say it is complicated, but it starts with: I get bored sometimes.

<< Now on alternative media, like , Joe Rogan, Tucker Carlson, promoting Russian propaganda stating that Hitler was a victim, and WW2 was Poland's fault, among other absurd takes that only people with low cognitive capacity and deficient education would believe.

If it only affects people with either low cognitive capacity and/or low education, surely it should not be a problem in a country, where nearly all real jobs require higher education. If it does affect them, maybe the factor you selected is not.. as useful as you think.

<< If you want to promote Nazism, and protect that, you're on the right track, but don't expect people from nation with proper institutions to follow through. Just deal with that.

Here you go again. Promote is not the same as allow. I am not sure, what your hangup is, but I am starting to think you are not arguing in good faith.

<< Hopefully X will be banned in a lot of countries, the sooner the better.

You will be surprised to know, I would be perfectly ok with that. I might even cheer.

<< If you believe that you can't influence people's behavior and how they think, you have not even a basic understanding on the subject and we will end our engagement here.

edit: I would encourage you to re-read what I wrote. I don't think I want to post a novel here.

<< I never said that there should be an institution to promote Nazism,

Honestly, I think you are just lost.





Post specific or shut up, because this is just spewing bullshit with some true bits sprinkled on top for the sake of deniability.


Try posting your plans to assassinate the orange idiot on facebook and see what happens


Reddit is full of this, and nothing happens. At worst you will get a couple of folks from Secret Service come over and check up on the seriousness of your intentions.


"freedom of expression isn't freedom from consequences". Freedom of expression is about whether the government will use state powers to arrest or silence you. Being uninvited to a gathering is not that.


It's not as simple as you state. Courts have, in the past, had something to say about The White House revoking press passes without due process.

The very first hit searching "supreme court decisions white house press passes" yields the following, and I leave it to you to search further if it pleases you.

https://www.americanbar.org/news/abanews/publications/yourab...



Unfortunately it's an old site, and the deeper links within are broken. There aren't any court rulings yet that are directly on point with respect to the question of access. However, if the Government is conditioning press access based on viewpoint, that's immediately suspect, and I would expect the courts to apply strict scrutiny to it.


Apologies, I definitely put the minimum effort into that response. But as you stated, the point is government control over the press tends to raise constitutional questions.


This was not a private gathering, though. This was a public conference held by the President of the United States. That is the government choosing who is allowed to speak and who isn't.

I'm by no means a free speech absolutist, but there are certain things that are huge red flags for freedom of press and freedom of expression. The government moving against press that is critical of it is dangerous. We should always be wary when that happens.



You are confusing the principle and western liberal value of freedom of speech with the first amendment, which is an implementation of the value.


It’s exactly that.


[flagged]



First you tell me what is wrong about what I have said.


He claimed, incorrectly, that people who live near abortion "buffer zones" in Scotland were sent letters by the government warning them about praying privately within their own homes. This was nonsense.


Why are you making things up?


> It sounds like we’re attaching a few conditions in hopes to end the killing

You really believe that the current administration is acting out of “hopes to end the killing”?

What do you think Greenland is about? About spreading christianity?

The current administration is failing and the top % is profiting off it; eating itself up. It’s a pattern that’s well known.

Internationally, the US is rapidly losing allies all across the board. And internally, facing its facing increasingly extreme inequality in terms of wealth distribution.

The current administration doesn’t even have interesting cards that it can play.



We detached this offtopic subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43213104.


One theory is that Trump waving his tiny dick about Canada, Greenland, and the Panama Canal has to do about who holds his leash: Putin. The canal doesn't allow Russian ships through it. Canada and Greenland border the Arctic Ocean, which importance rises along with the temperature of the planet. I can imagine Trump fantasizes about letting Putin plant Russian bases in the new states of Canada and Greenland...


It's just 100% about oil oil oil. He's "waving his dick" about Canada in order to try to topple and/or destabilize our governance here and reinforce vassal state status and also shore up the oil industry's political allies here (Danielle Smith, Pierre Poillevre), get carbon taxes etc off the table here, yada yada yada.

The tariffs are intended to be asymmetrical, attacking Central Canadian manufacturing with a 25% import tariff while only applying a 10% tariff to Albertan oil exports (if that even) and simultaneously making noises about reviving Keystone XL.

It's the same crap with the Russia stuff. Oil oil oil.



The asymmetry in the taxes is related to US dependency on Canadian oil. If the US were to tax our oil at 25% every American would feel that at the pump and in their pocket. They're gonna feel it anyways but more so.

The Canadian conservatives are not going to play ball with Trump either. Poilievre is going to win because the current government is terrible. If anything Trump's actions are strengthening the liberals because it forces them to actually do something which they always try to avoid. To some degree this mirrors the poor governance by the democrats in the US that lost them their elections but at least Poilievre is not a moron.

The whole let's tariff Canada is just plain stupidity. There is no logic. There is no way that Canada is going to yield to the US in any way.



The US is in no way dependent on Canadian oil, or any other country's oil. The US under republican administrations is a massive net exporter of oil, and if they buy yours, they do it by choice. The reason for the tariffs is that Canada has a very trade-protectionist foreign policy on everything from maple syrup to cars.

The "it's all about oil" crowd is as stuck in the 1990s as the "we're still in the cold war crowd." This is probably much more about rare earth minerals.



I (obviously) did not mean "dependent" in the sense of can't survive without it. The energy prices in the US reflect the low price energy products they buy from Canada.

It's ridiculous and false to say that in general Canada has a protectionist policy. There are some areas (like maybe milk and maple) where Canada is protecting its local producers but in general Canada is pro free trade. Most of the the trade skirmishes between the countries were around things like soft woods where IMO it was the Americans who were violating the trade agreements.

The insinuation that Canada is somehow taking advantage of the US in trade is just nonsense. The trade imbalance is a reflection of the slower growing Canadian economy (because obviously we are taking advantage of the Americans) and the energy/resources we sell to the US (too cheaply).



Yep. If oil is removed from the equation, the US would have a trade surplus with Canada, so I'm not sure what this person is on about.

The US produces plenty of conventional crude, but imports cheap heavy crude from Canada because it's cheap and the refineries are set up for it. They could eventually transition refining, but ... why? In the end it would just hurt the consumer and provide no strategic advantage.

Like many things, oil and gas pipelines zigzag across the border. Continental integration has been the order of the day for 3/4 of a century at this point.

Yes Canada protects its agricultural sector just like the US does its. We protect dairy especially, but the US massively subsidizes cash crop agri in the US. And in any case, Canada imports more agri from the US than it exports, so, again, it seems very bizarre to try to present some kind of case that Canada is some sort of protectionist parasite.

Are these the talking points the GOP is putting out to try to cover Trump's verbal farts? Because they make no sense. Oh, and governors of GOP states that trade with Canada have also made this very clear, and are not happy with Trump around this issue during this term or the last term when he played these games.



Until literally 5 weeks ago, it was common knowledge and not debated that Canada has a very protectionist attitude toward its local industries, but I see that this has now become contentious because the orange windbag said something about it. Here is a list of several Canadian trade protections:

* The agricultural products that are well-known, including milk, lumber, and the famous Canadian maple syrup cartel

* Similar protections on minerals and other natural resources (including oil), and bans of foreign ownership of natural resource extraction companies

* Canadian TV and radio stations must play a certain fraction of Canadian content

* Significant restrictions on movement of goods between provinces of Canada, and inter-provincial tariffs that add up to quite a lot

* Canada's limits on foreign ownership of companies in the telecommunications and digital equipment sector, as well as companies involved in defense

* A ban on foreign ownership of residential property

* Canada's data localization laws and digital goods tax

I am fine with Canada having a lot of trade protections, but it does.



As the other reply said this is literally nothing. The Canadian maple syrup cartel. I'm literally laughing out loud. Common knowledge in what circles?

Most trade between the US and Canada is free. There is a free trade agreement.

Yes. Canada doesn't want to lose its artists so it supports local musicians. I mean everyone still listens to local TV and Radio stations here. We don't have the Internet in our logging camps.

There is no ban on foreign ownership of residential property. You must be confusing us with Australia. [EDIT: Sorry but as you noted I am at least partly wrong here. Since 2022 [actually 2023] there are limitations on foreigners buying residential housing in Canada. It has a lot of loopholes but it still exists. You can still own residential property if you acquired it before even if you are a foreigner. This isn't really a trade question anyways].

There's some inter-provincial friction. Not sure what that has to do with anything. Gives the US an advantage.

You pay sales tax on stuff you buy online. That's true in the US as well. I know Amazon really wanted to get around that but hey.

The US supports US companies with various subsidies. It also has lower tax rates. Not fair.

US-Canada trade is a relatively free, win-win. It's not a zero sum game. Now the US administration wants to turn this into a lose-lose zero sum game over some imaginary drug and immigration issues with the border.



All of this adds up to jack-squat, diddly-nothing, when measured against the hundreds of billions of dollars of actual trade. And all represent existing pieces carved out at the time FTA and NAFTA were signed when I was like... 14 years old. And I'm old.

And all of them have corresponding restrictions within the US. You think Lockheed Martin isn't protected? That any Canadian company would be allowed to dominate aerospace or defense or telecoms (not that they could)

And what is this nonsense about "ban on foreign ownership of residential property"? Sounds like a good idea, but it does not exist

Where are you from? Because if you're from Canada, you sound woefully uneducated about your own nation.

(Interprovincial trade limitations are mostly on alcohol and are a remnant from prohibition era laws. And yes, they suck. The other area where the provinces have barriers is around professional certifications.)



https://www.canada.ca/en/department-finance/news/2024/02/gov...

I am not a Canadian, but I hope that if you are, you learn more about your own nation's trade policy than a foreigner.

Once again, I am not convinced that these protections are bad for Canada, but they absolutely are a huge subsidy for local business, and a very common tool for Canadian government.



Said "ban" is recent and full of loopholes and in response to a housing emergency

I can tell you that buying residential property in the US as a foreigner isn't a cakewalk either, my dude.

Ask yourself -- Why are you playing into this rhetoric about Canada? You seem like one of the people who 6 months ago would barely even acknowledge we exist, yet now you're an expert...



Not to take away from your accurate point about oil, but I think it's silly to say the "we're still in the cold war" crowd were out of touch in this of all threads.


The cold war view is sophomoric in my opinion because this Russia-Ukraine situation is more of a proxy war between the US and China. In the cold war, Russia was the real geopolitical adversary. In this one, they are more of a geopolitical nuisance and a puppet for a foreign state who wants to test the limits of US capabilities and doctrine in a foreign war like this.

Russia is no longer the big bad guy it used to be. Before the war, they had a crumbling economy the size of Italy's.



What evidence have you seen that this was somehow instigated by China, and not Russian ethnic nationalism/imperialism for its own sake? Remember that this started well before 2022. This is a recap and prescient analysis from 2014: https://www.fpri.org/article/2014/05/putins-greater-novoross...

And you can see a premature declaration of victory along similar lines from the Russian state media, which was then taken down when Ukraine did not in fact fold in three days: https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-60562240. You can see the archive.org capture of the original article linked there if you wish to see the primary source.

Yes, their GDP is weak (nevertheless, Russia persists). No, it doesn't make any sense if you look at it through a normal Western lens, which is why there was widespread disbelief that Russia was to imminently invade Ukraine. But, as the saying goes, "Russia can't be understood by the mind alone"



Yet another reason to be embarrassed as an American.


My point of view overall is that it was an insufferable meeting and I'm surprised that it didn't explode sooner.

Question after question praising Trump and then he repeating his same old script. They even seemed to forget Zelenskyy was there for a moment, and then a reporter asks him why is he not wearing a suit?. Such a ridiculous question, and if they care about it so much, why they don't ask Elon Musk that?

Being in Z shoes I would feel like a sane people trapped on an mental institution or a cult.



I wish HN allowed threads like this to hit the front page...

The world is changing pretty quickly, and stuff like this does have implications on war, business, technology that's I think is worth discussing here.



Threads like this do make the front page sometimes, you can mail [email protected] and make the case for user flags to be turned off for the post.


It's pretty rare. It was flagged dead when I came across it. My comment got over a dozen upvotes so it seems others feel similarly.


Look like it worked.


[flagged]



Ok, you know how Superman gets his powers from the energy of the Earth's yellow sun? Same, except I use being a busybody instead of the sun.


That and your snazzy HN club jacket :D


It doesn't help that the tech industry is slowly collapsing while all of the tech leaders are jumping into politics.

Sometimes I wonder what is actually left of hacker/startup culture?



How can you have hacker culture at any major tech companies when the entire management structure is nothing but business brains?

How many CEOs of prominent tech companies right now even use technology? Like REALLY use it.



Hacker culture is still around, not so sure about startups though.

We still have TCP. We still have Linux. We still have gcc, Debian, Fedora, Gentoo and more. Now, that last mile connection is still looking dicey; if a lockdown is applied, it will be applied there.



This is a bit flippant, but maybe hacker/startup culture just moved from being applied to tech to being applied to politics? It seems like the technofeudalism promoted by some could apply a similar ethos.


Hacker culture and startup culture are two entirely different things, with entirely different worldviews. The overlap in the Venn diagram isn't as large as many think.


Aannd… it’s flagged. Yeah I agree, the discussion here has been pretty clean and reasonable so I don’t understand why this gets shot down. I do understand that politics doesn’t really belong here but changes like this absolutely have follow on effects on business and technology and deserve room for discussion.


Yes, please show me more political drama, especially of the US-based comedy show you guys call "politics." Can't get enough of it. Only 60% of my HN feed has "Trump", "DOGE" or "Musk" in the title, that's not nearly enough for my taste, I'm gagging to see more of it. There must be some conspiracy going on, I'm sure of it.


quite an impactful and unusual event -- this post should _not_ be flagged


I've started going to the "new" section for HN instead of the front page to catch the news before it's flagged.


I read /new more often than the main page nowadays (not just due to flags on political stories, but it does give a better picture of what's relevant rather than the survivorship bias of the front page)


I recommend: https://hn.algolia.com/

set for top stories for the last 24 hours

it's the best homepage for HN, shows all stories, flagged and flamed stories too



I treat http://news.ycombinator.com/active as the real front page. Flagged discussions show up there.


I have long loved https://hckrnews.com for the chronological timeline, but the trail of [dead] across the timeline has been jaw dropping & horrifying to see & so so visible here.

A top tier concern of our age is disinformation & propoganda. The lies are absurd & out of control. But denial of information is also a huge issue, and the ability of a couple few to suppress & deny here is remarkable.

I'm so glad there's this timeline based site, showing what's really happening & the many many things denied.



Maybe you should try reading a mainstream news site or news aggregator instead


Is there a good one with comments for discussion? Closest thing I can think of is reddit and you know how that is with politics.


This is what JD Vance calls 'free speech'...


[flagged]



And wear your child on your neck like a support blanket.


[flagged]



I've noticed that most submissions involving anything that might invite the slightest criticism of Musk routinely get flagged. My conclusion has been that there's an army(or just a handful of people with too much time on their hands) of Elon fanboys patrolling the site, flagging stuff that causes them cognitive dissonance.

Doesn't even have to be political. I've seen it over and over with submissions about cybertruck recalls, twitter related stuff, etc.



I believe they're bots. Easy enough to do a negative sentiment analysis with an llm. Positive sentiment Tesla astroturfing is also everywhere on facebook and instagram.


Makes sense if you’re worth billions and billions yet still need to cheat at video games so you can pretend on a livestream that you are one of the best at some random video game.


Wow I was not aware of that.

It's understandable that some personal biases may creep in to the moderation processes, and I believe that this is a much preferable situation than allowing it to devolve into an unmoderated forum.

I assume that Elon the Nazi is too inflammatory for an HN discussion subject, where the emphasis should be on polite discussion of nerdy subjects, as per the guidelines.

As an aside: I posted a link about accelerationism (a worthy HN topic methinks) but it had the word 'capitalism' in the title and got flagged - it is a well produced and thought provoking video by the way [1], and not partisan-political at all.

[1] https://youtu.be/wlrjdCVAuG0?feature=shared



More like musk fanboys that either are just straight up nazi bros or are too invested in tesla instinctively smash that flag button


[dead]



I submitted it as a post this week. It survived for about 3 minutes before being flagged as a dupe and then deleted without any link to the conversation it was supposedly a dupe of. I did some cursory searching and could not find another conversation.


It’s amazing to me how fast the VC tech world fell to their knees in front of king musk and his orange jester trump. I’m almost ready to invest in knee replacement surgery supply companies.


Have you seen the summer AI school advertisement at the bottom of the home page?

It mentions that Elon will be there. The conflict of interest is pretty clear. Not to mention the recent post about YC boss-ware that du-humanizes laborers. Capitalists/industrialists are generally pro-nazi at an ideology level.



They’re surprised because they don’t understand the history of tech and fascism. IBM was responsible for ensuring the Holocaust went off efficiently as hell. Now Elon Musk has access to American’s most closely held data, I wonder how that’s going to go. At this point, I’m just waiting for them to round folks up, and preparing.


Wasn’t the excuse that Elon is autistic?

Wait till he finds out what the Nazis did to autistic people.

Why is it so hard to just say “Nazis suck, I hate Nazis”…





European nations, in contrast to the Americas, have been fighting bloody wars between them constantly forever.

After WW2 the EU was formed with the goal of stopping the bloodshed. Germans and French became friends!

Europe outsourced their defense to the USA, and instead they started paying NATO and buying defense equipment from US companies.

Yet they stood by the USA in all their fair or unfair endeavors in the Middle East.

The first time that the EU called for actual help, the US seems aligned with Russia.

Things don’t look good.



> Yet they stood by the USA in all their fair or unfair endeavors in the Middle East.

France and Germany both openly opposed the US on the Iraq war [1], France even threatened to veto any UN resolutions for an invasion. Hence the whole "Freedom Fries" thing [2]

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/jan/22/germany.france

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_fries



Turns out they were right on multiple levels. Canada supported the US wholeheartedly, and now we're being threatened with annexation.

Thanks, America.



Perhaps it's justice that Canada experience the very thing they supported the US for in Iraq.


Canada did not support the 2003 Iraq invasion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_and_the_Iraq_War


I'm happy to learn that.


Canada actually didn't support the Iraq war either, it-least officially [1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-National_Force_%E2%80%93...



That's a twisted kind of justice.


The American government has been compromised by Russia. It no longer represents American interests, but Russian interests.

Whether the senior powers in America are compromised, complicit, or opportunist, it doesn't matter. America is being damaged. Russian interests are being prioritized over American interests.

Our military is too powerful for direct conflict, so alternative conflict against our political structure and economy is more logical. America is experiencing a decapitation strike, and our military is not defending us from these domestic enemies. https://archive.is/1xkxK (Decapitation Strike -- Timothy Snyder)



Russia seems to own the far right mindspace to a large degree, and I’m sure they’ve spent a large amount of resources for many years shaping those perspectives and narratives to suit themselves.

I also suspect that Russia has been causing the very problems that the far right reacts against, most notably immigration. Remember wirecard? Germany’s fintech darling, which was run by Jan Marsalek, who turned out to be a Russian spy? What was one of the things they were doing? Funding people smuggling into Europe. To strengthen the right that Russia owns.

https://www.rferl.org/amp/russia-wirecard-marsalek-spy/32844...

They’ve been directly disrupting the west while controlling those who offer the “solution”.



> I also suspect that Russia has been causing the very problems that the far right reacts against, most notably immigration.

They absolutely are.

A large portion of immigrants into Europe originate from countries suffering from conflicts that Russia has a big hand in. The big one, of course, being Syria, but also many African nations where the Wagner group, now effectively re-branded as the Russian Africa Corps are providing military support and protection.

Another big aspect of Russia facilitating immigration into Europe, is the immigration route through Belarus: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belarus%E2%80%93European_Union...



Russia has their base in Syria but the US has been trying to destroy Syria through covert and non covert means since at least 1982. Russia is newcomer to Syria conflict.


Checks out - Russia is the country you end up with when you have the far right's ideology.


Ironically, Soviet Union was the product of the far left ideology.


I don't understand why the focus on one side? Russia was caught financing extreme-left parties, religious parties (including hamas, isis and hezbollah), conservative parties (moderate and extreme), rebels, terrorists ...

Certainly seems Russia has no ideology they care about beyond "sabotage states", with some priority on western states, but certainly not just western states. They fund political parties in ex-Yugoslavia that are LITERALLY at each other's throats (with knives and guns, not with protests and shouting).

They're sowing chaos wherever they can, however they can. Priority seems to be on the UK, Brussels/EU and the US, but it's not like they're not doing it in places like Rwanda as well. Whether that means supporting extreme-left, extreme right, or just whoever is willing to turn guns on the police or some ethnic group they hate, Russia/Putin just doesn't care.

Hell, daesh/isis got funding from Russia, killed 145 Russians in Moscow ... and Russia funded them again, after blaming Ukraine for the attack. They just don't care.



Sowing chaos in foreign blocs is a classic far-right manoeuvre.


No one has made more to increase the number of refugees from the middle east than the country who has fought endless wars in the middle east for the last decades. If you're looking for a "culprit" there you have one, but Europe is not ready to accept this.


all middle eastern forever wars are part of the Netanyahu’s Clean Break strategy that US implements

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Clean_Break:_A_New_Strategy_...



I remember Ruzzia in Syria too not only USA in fact how many wars was Ruzzia involved sicne USSR fall? Also count special operations as wars?

I blame both USA and Ruzzia for the migrants problem.



Remember Maria Butina, Russian spy in the NRA?


She was actually mentored and funded by real life Pro Gun Ownership guys in Russia. mass civilian gun ownership is not a thing in Russia, but they were inspired by the NRA's example and were trying.


Remember the 7 compromised GOP senators members visiting Moscow on independence day uncomfortably posing for a photo op?


I sometimes wonder whether the sudden rise of "gender politics"... is all part of some sort of conrolled oppopsition narrative.

"Gender politics" is used heavily within Russia to provide a contrast to "masculine traditional values" which in turn are used to convince 100,000s of men to (quite ironically) be turned into cannon fodder against Russia's real or perceived enemies. And even more ironically is used by security services and the military in the form of rape against (male) political dissidents and soldiers.



I know about Wirecard and the Marsalek story, but not about this:

> Wirecard [...] Funding people smuggling into Europe

Can you elaborate?



Trump represents a short term "win" for Russia, but Russia in the medium/long term is as screwed as you can be as a country.


Extractive systems quickly ratchet up their time discounting factor, meaning if it's possible to steal something sooner with a bit of aggression than later without, the former will happen usually. (And usually only external forces limit this process.)


I bet you can do a lot of damage in 4 years. Not to mention if Trump tries to run for an unconstitutional 3rd term.


With what David Cameron and Boris Johnston did with us in the uk. Brexit. A lot in four years.

Labour is doing no better.



That'll end up being the real test of whether or not we still have checks and balances.


We allowed a guy that tried to coup the government not only to run for office again, but to win and disappear all his criminal charges.

What rule of law. What checks and balances?



Oh I didn't say the US would survive another four years of Trump, i'm saying despite their current state of jubilation, Russia is screwed no matter what.


You actually think there are going to be elections again?


Why not? Russia has elections too.


touche!


Even if Trump doesn't run again, Vance will, he'll declare victory no matter what happens, and Trumpism will have another opportunity to coup the government after failing and learning from their mistakes the first time.


Does anyone have any information on the whole "Krasnov" claim, whereby Trump was supposedly recruited by the KGB in the 80's and given the designation "Krasnov"?


It's pointless to ask. Either you believe the story or you don't, but it's not like you can send a FOIA request to the FSB. It's doomed to remain a single-source allegation, even though I find the claim plausible.


As plausible as the pee tape?




No one is going to comment here wit any information that isn't trivially findable via google.


It would be beneficial to russia to spread such claims to sabotage US even further even if it's not real. The problem right now -- you can't be 100% sure that it's not. It was believable even before the claim was made.


Absolutely no way it can be proven. However, the actions of "Krasnov" certainly seem to point in that direction.


There have been multiple books written about this, leaks from MI6, etc etc. It's not at all new and doesn't seem to have been debunked, just kind of glossed over.


I find it interesting how the Russian news agency TASS quotes the presidential aide of Russia:

"The election campaign is over," Patrushev noted. "To achieve success in the election, Donald Trump relied on certain forces to which he has corresponding obligations. As a responsible person, he will be obliged to fulfill them."

https://tass.com/politics/1870713/amp



Thought experiment: Compare three scenarios, in which:

A Trump is not in any way beholden to Russia

B Trump has prospective business interests in Russia

C Trump follows Russian orders even at the cost of US interests

Which of these most easily explains the actual behavior we see?



I was expecting something like this to happen in 2023 after the catastrophic summer offensive. That was when it became abundantly clear that Ukraine was losing the war. There wasnt even a viable plan for victory after that it was just... keep giving weapons and keep those fingers crossed.

For Trump this is about washing his hands of a war that he understands cannot be won and will become an albatross around his neck if he doesnt disengage.

A makes complete sense if you have a full picture of the military industrial situation, but in the west there is very little cognizance of just how badly Ukraine is losing not how limited western options are.

"Krasov" is an appealing explanation because it means not facing this bitter reality.



Three years on and Ukraine is still holding its own. There's no reason this couldn't become Russia's Afghanistan 2.0.

Moreover, Ukraine's rules of engagement have been severely limited. They've been unable to strike airfields inside Russia even though they have the capacity to do so.



It's really not holding its own. The military situation is dire. Budanov accidentally let slip that they can keep going for another 6 months...1 month ago. That's probably about when a catastrophic line collapse will occur, if not sooner.

It's unlikely to become another Afghanistan because A) it does not have Afghanistan's superlative geography for hit and run attacks on supply chains and B) coz this war burned through Ukraine's best troops such that now mostly all they have left are TCC-kidnapped soldiers who would rather submit to Russia than fight.



Even if Trump seems to behave like in case C there could be others like

D Russia can blackmail Trump

E Russia pay Trump to act in favour of of Russia even at the cost of US interest.



> Russia can blackmail Trump

I don't think that's possible at all.

It's been proven time and time again that Trump is untouchable. He joked about being able to shoot somebody and not lose voters, and it's too true. People that love Trump love him because of the people he hurts, not the people he helps. If he shot someone, his supporters would be like "haha he murdered someone! That makes you so angry, doesn't it? MAGA!"

So, no, I don't think Russia could blackmail Trump. Any dirt Russia has on Trump could be released and it wouldn't decrease Trump's support. For fuck's sake, we already know he was a regular visitor to Epstein's Kiddie-Diddle Island.



Also the Muslim refugees flooding Europe crisis has largely been a result of the Syrian civil war, with Russia being the main and mostly only ally of Bashar al-Assad. Supposedly, motivation there was Putin not wanting to lose his only ally in the region left after Gaddafi was murdered, not so much an intentional effort to destabilize Europe, but hey, it worked out, I guess.


Before that there was the drawn out conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan. The amount of refugees was staggering.

Do take the time to check the facts sometime where those refugees ended up. How many did Germany accept? How many did Sweden take? How many did the US accept?

It does put the recent claims that Europe should pay up for its protection into perspective.



Didn't the disintegration of Libya also not play a big part to start the refugee crisis? Someone explained to me once that once Gaddafi was gone and Libya became a fractured state, that it essentially became a refugee gateway into the Mediterranean as previously that "band" of North African countries (Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya and Egypt) where acting as a buffer preventing refugees from African countries to move Northwards.


What’s the phrase, never let a good crisis go to waste?


It was qctually Israel that wanted to destroy an ally of Iran and weaken Iran. Russia was only defending his ally. It was not driving the conflict.


The refugees started coming months before Russia's involvement, after the organized campaign with the pictures of a dead young boy on the shore.


I think it's because the really wanted to keep their navy base in syria


Russia had both a navy base and an air base in Syria. They used the navy base to project power into the Mediterranean Sea and the air base to protect power into Africa (Wagner Group logistics, and air cargo transport of cash bribes and conflict minerals).


That's the same thing.


Yeah… who dares interfere with US intervention of a country?!


russia voted for or abstained from voting about the intervention in Libya if i remember correctly


I'm still dumbfounded how this era gave rise to the emergence of stable long-term bs narratives across all society. Russia leverages gullibility a lot but surely there's other factors at play.


Simple. If I'm Russia, I would do everything I could to directly fund every pacifist academic possible, and literally anything that bogs things down, especially if it gives moral fuzzies on paper. Nothing is more useful than something that wastes time, increases complexity, while being tied into morals and worldview, causing it to be impossible to question why or where the push is coming from.

"Put your guard down, there's no credible threat."

"Gender equality in the military? Expensive, complicated - do it!"

"Additional rules for soldiers? Expensive, complicated - do it!"

"Do we really need a military this large? Nah, downsize!"

"The US would never not follow their promises, real or implied."

"The UN is a powerful and effective safeguarding body; trust them."

"International law is a powerful and effective deterrent against invasions."

"Maybe the military should be focused on more civilian improvement activities."

"Can we start researching whether we could be a post-militarized society?"



> Simple. If I'm Russia, I would do everything I could to directly fund every pacifist academic possible, and literally anything that bogs things down, especially if it gives moral fuzzies on paper.

And they tried that, and never really gave up on it, but the real big returns came when they started funding of the international white supremacy and far right movements.



I'm skeptical that it is only the Right. Maybe predominantly, or more explicitly, but anyone wanting power and control on either side would want to sell themselves out, too.


It is not only targeting the Right. I'd suggest that Russia isn't primarily interested in bolstering the right specifically. They are interested in dividing national societies as well international alliances along any possible ideological issue, effectively shattering the entire thing - divide et impera.

You can see some indication of this in the Mueller report on Russia's election interference in the US, and the DOJ indictment against Prigozhin and his Internet Research Agency troll factory. They kept playing both sides: pushing Facebook groups that were strong pro racial justice & BLM while also pushing pro cop / back the blue Facebook groups. At some point, they scheduled protests for both sides of this particular issue at the same time and place, clearly hoping for altercations.

But I think it's safe to say that, at least in the US, their efforts seem to have mainly focused on the Republican side. However, here in Germany, both the populist far-right AfD and the populist far-left political Party BSW around former Linke politician Sarah Wagenknecht are very much aligned with Russian interests: https://www.dw.com/en/russias-best-friends-in-germany-afd-an...





Why not compare their actions? We have a previous president who tried to maintain the constitutional political process in the US right up to handing off to the current administration. And then we have a current administration who seems to want to sow a bunch of chaos and a majority in congress who were fine complaining about circumventing legislators in the previous administration but who now do nothing to stop it. So given those actions, do you still believe that both sides would stop at nothing to hold on to power?


most of the European and US refugees are due to American forever wars in support for Israeli "clean break" strategy by Netanyahu.

Please don't try to put the blame on Russia, where it squarely belongs to the USA

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Clean_Break:_A_New_Strategy_...



Syria is very much Russia's conflict.


"Russia supported the Ba'athist administration of former President Bashar al-Assad of Syria from the onset of the Syrian conflict in 2011: politically, with military aid, and (from September 2015 to December 2024) with direct military involvement."

Very much so. Thanks



Syria, with its 17+ factions (including ISIS) rebellion is definitely... complicated. I wouldn't know where to lay blame, personally.


Do you remember when the US started paying Al-Queda to destabilize Syria

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timber_Sycamore



go to wikipedia and read the history of Syrian conflict and how many years after it started, did Russia intervene


Good call!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%E2%80%93Syria_relations

> an agreement was signed in February 1946 ensuring Soviet support for Syrian independence ahead of the evacuation of French troops in April 1946

> In 1971, under an agreement with President Hafez al-Assad, the Soviet Union opened its naval military base in Tartus

> On 8 October 1980, Syria and the Soviet Union signed a Treaty of Friendship and Cooperation

So, "how many years after it started" appears to be a negative number.



yes soviet union had diplomatic relations with Syria as well as other arab states, but Russia didn't involve in Syrian civil war instigated by the CIA (so called Arab Spring) and completely fumbled by Barry Soetoro


You're thinking about intervention as if it means direct military involvement. They were allied with Assad and supplying weapons the entire time.


Supplying weapons to whom? It was bona fide weapons purchases program from one state to another, like all other states procure their weapons.

Syrian war was civil war financed by the NED, USAID and other US entities to topple Assad, like they did in other arab spring states.

It took several years of civil war and unsuccessful bombing of civilians by Barry Soetoro, unsuccessful funding of various jihadi groups by the Pentagon and CIA (separately), the same groups that led to the rise of ISIS. Only then by the request from then president Assad, did Russia help with strikes against ISIS



Seems like they were banking on the Ukrainian president bending the knee, and that didn't happen. The greatest damage done to the US by that meeting might be the public display of POTUS's histrionic decompensation, requiring the VP to jump to his defense. It's a bad look overall, regardless of the eventual outcome for Ukraine or the US.


They wanted an excuse to drop support and they got it. They don't drop support because they are playing for team russia, they are peaceniks and it's Zelenskyy who rejected the shit deal. If they wanted to have those rare metals or whatever they would have just bought it and made a good faith effort to negotiate something instead of this.


> They wanted an excuse to drop support and they got it.

If they message that they are dropping support based on that personal insult, they will lose respect and credibility, and will get manipulated.



Not sure that's terribly different from any other message they've sent so far.


The US wouldn’t have put Trump back in power if it cared about “overall looks”.


Trump cares a lot about overall looks. He didn't look like he was in control - that's what matters.


To MAGA, he spoke louder, and with more confidence, therefore he won.

Unfortunately this will not shake support of him in his base.



> Unfortunately this will not shake support of him in his base.

That will probably come when they lose Medicaid and food stamp benefits.



Trump looked like a fool that let his target bait him repeatedly on national television, outing him as an extortionist.

Unfortunately, it will now be used as an excuse for the US to alley with Russia to receive compensation for it's prior defense investment.



Not sure he noticed? I think in his mind he came off strong.


Watch the spin afterwards. The more he tries to spin it to look better, the less he feels like he came off strong.


he even took credit by saying I kept this going so long because its important for American people to see whats going on.


"It was a perfect melt down"


Perhaps they figured there are more important priorities for a US President than looking good?


I'm truly surprised anyone decides to disagree with that statement.

It frightens me a bit that people think looks are more important than results.

But I guess it's the world we live in.



exactly, giving Putin what he wants is more important than "looking good", whatever that means.

Ukraine's only hope is that the US stays out of it now, rather than joins Russia. Europe has a losing battle on our hands now.



Do you think anything that's not reported in mainstream media, or are you simply repeating what you consume? Because it looks the same to me.

And the media isn't really there to inform you, it's there to make sure you think what they want you to think for whatever reasons.

I would suggest at least taking a look at alternative explanations, otherwise this is just as bad as any other kind of blind faith.



In addition to looking like a terrible President, Trump is also very bad at governing, especially in a crisis. Last time he was President, he inherited a great economy that he was focused on looting (giving himself and other billionaires a massive tax cut and trying to kill the Affordable Care Act to steal even more). He left office with unemployment at 15%, the country $8T further in debt, crime skyrocketing to 30 year highs, cities were literally on fire, and everyone's quality of life was horribly harmed by his terrible management of pandemic.

What was Trump good at?



Then why did people elect him again?

Listening to people who did, it sounds a lot like their lives got better the last time.

Are you saying they're lying? Or just stupid?

Can you think of another explanation for the disconnect?



Nah, Trump was never going to offer Ukraine the security guarantee needed to end this conflict. Trump is just extending this "give us $500B in mineral rights in exchange for nothing" deal to manufacture an excuse to cease all aid to Ukraine and exonerate his administration from the holocaust that Putin will execute against Ukrainians after Trump gives Putin all of the intel the US military has accumulated aiding Ukraine to this point.


I'm always cautious about saying something like this for fear of sounding hyperbolic. But good lord, watching this video right after reading about the administration's change in stance on Russian cyber threats [1] really chips away at any remaining room for ambiguity.

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/feb/28/trump-russia...



You should continue to be cautious, as the Guardian article is pretty weak. It's first point is that Russia wasn't mentioned in a talk about cyber threats, which means very little by itself. It's second and final point comes from an "anonymous source". I'll believe it when the source becomes de-anonymized. Too many deep state "anonymous tips" have turned out to be lies. It should be noted that CISA has a history of strong leftwing activism:

https://www.dailywire.com/news/u-s-cybersecurity-defense-age...

https://www.dailywire.com/news/biden-administration-colluded...

Trump is not far right and never has been. He's actually moderate on most issues. The current far right position is the Tucker Carlson "isolation at all costs" and "Putin maybe isn't a bad guy" garbage. Trump holds neither of those views.



If it turns out that CISA analysts were truly told verbally to no longer focus or report on Russian threats, and if you assume this was done under Trump's direction or to align with his intent, would would your thoughts be?

I'm not (yet) asserting that either of those two conditions are or aren't true, I'm just curious what your thoughts would be IF they were.



It's a good question, and, in the worst case, I would disagree with the Trump administration and lose some trust in them. There is also the possibility that missing context would provide reasonable justification for the order. For instance, I think "Russian election interference" investigations have mostly been a partisan operation with little evidence that such interference has had any meaningful impact on U.S. elections. These investigations are mostly used to make the political right side look bad by tying them to Putin. It would be reasonable for the Trump admin to defund these investigations as we have much greater problems to be worried about.


> It no longer represents American interests, but Russian interests

And Israeli interests

And that’s across pretty much all branches of governments and administrations, for quite some time now

American people’s needs be damned



Correct. My understanding is that there's no individual lobby group in America with more influence on foreign policy than AIPAC.

The book The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy is a great read which fairly and methodically outlines how this influence works and what effects it's had on American policy, spanning decades.



This book was incredibly hard for me to read. It was well written, well cited, and nothing it said was wrong. But it was like doomscrolling in book form. It left me feeling hopeless.


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How would we know? If they're really successful about it, wouldn't it look something like, say, ~2 years of almost complete inaction while Israel flattens Gaza?


I think “how would we know” is actually a pretty good point. I do also find Israel’s outsized influence on the US inexplicable.


Israel is a solitary, functioning, modern liberal democracy surrounded by repressive, autocratic states. Until about a minute ago, supporting liberal democracy was important to all US administrations.

The people of the US are (until maybe(?) a minute ago) largely supportive of Israel. Partly because of a (relatively) large and visible Jewish population (THANK YOU EUROPE!), and partly because it has been a majority Protestant Christian nation with an affinity God's Chosen People.

You don't need to go all QAnon to figure this out.



> Israel is a solitary, functioning, modern liberal democracy surrounded by repressive, autocratic states. Until about a minute ago, supporting liberal democracy was important to all US administrations.

IDK about functioning or modern or liberal, but the rest seems about right.



I have never been to Israel. But for a small country that has always existed under a threat of the destruction, not just by the county of Gaza, but occupied Lebanon, Iran, and basically some large population of every surrounding Muslim nation, they've done quite well. I'd say very modern. And given the penchant of the polity to protest and a free and rambunctious press, I'd also say very liberal.

You may have different definitions of these words.



I don’t think an open apartheid state that regularly supports the illegal dispossession of homes from civilians for a project of religious conquest can be considered to be liberal or modern or functional. But I suppose if I didn’t think Palestinians existed or were deserving of human rights then I could arrive at your same conclusion.

Personally I’d rather visit Jordan or Lebanon than Israel any day of the week.



Jordan and Lebanon are repressive and autocratic?


Did Lebanon declare war on Israel through the legislature or by Presidential decree? Did the the people demand that Hezbollah, under the control of democratically elected representatives, launch rockets every day across the border?

Jordan: "According to Freedom House, Jordan is ranked as the fifth-freest Arab country, but still regarded as "not free" in the 2021 report. It is also classified as having an authoritarian regime according to a 2020 democracy index."

But I'll accept your quibble: "Not All Nations"



It’s not really inexplicable. Looking into evangelicalism.


outsized influence =/ blackmail, even if the outcome might be similar.


I see your point, but to the parent's point, they've never done so so comprehensively that they no longer need to do so secretly.


I wonder how many Americans know about the night when Kissinger et al activated entire US military, incl nuclear forces, just so some soviet weapons wouldn't reach Egypt during Israel's Yum kippur war- all while Nixon slept. Soviet union was so taken aback, they immediately folded. Of course they would, they treated this thing like a minor regional conflict thousands miles away from home. Their mistake was believing American govt would do the same.

Source- Kissinger: A Biography by Walter Isaacson



Or about the USS Liberty. A US navy ship that was destroyed by the Israelis. Israel said it was a case of mistaken identity and President Johnson accepted that explanation. Admiral Moorer, the 7th chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, accused President Lyndon B. Johnson of having covered up that the attack was a deliberate act.


Well, usually the story told to counter this is that he said that Israel wouldn’t get one bullet until Egypt blockaded Straits of Tiran. Kissinger didn’t exactly have a track record of saying philo-Semitic things.


That's very likely the case, though I don't think either of us have the details to make that assertion confidently. My comment was only in regards to lobby groups which operate freely on US soil staffed mostly by Americans.

Were there an analogous "ARPAC" which lobbied for Russian interests I imagine it would be under an immense amount of scrutiny.



Let's wait to see what that golden pager does.


It'd be hilarious if it were a passive listening device like The Thing, but Trump seems so attention-hungry and security-oblivious that you could probably just leave a big microphone on his desk like an old-timey chat show.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thing_(listening_device)



I thought of that, too. Surely they wouldn't be that bold, but then again, it's such an obviously crazy idea that it might just work.


I've read at least one book that argued otherwise.


You have zero evidence for such a strong statement. Most blackmail goes undetected, so there's no way to say this confidently.


If Trump was taking direct orders from Putin, what would he be doing differently?


And who has?


[dupe]



Wait, what orders did he take from Putin?


That wasn't my question.


What was Biden’s ineffectuality about then?


Every single poll during the Gaza war has shown majority support from Americans that "israel has a right to defend itself" and "the US should support israel until the hostages are returned".

I don't understand why people think it's a conspiracy theory that Americans are fine with Israel bombing innocent brown people in the desert, since we did that ourselves for 20 years on the back of actual lies and a general hatred of Islam that is still here today, where we have re-elected the guy who made a literal muslim ban, and still insist that islam is a threat through "migrants".

Americans have very little empathy for brown people in the middle east. Israel has a much more "westernized" vibe for Americans, so of course they can empathize with them more. Remember that any American over the age of 20 have seen MULTIPLE TIMES that there was "relative calm" and then Hamas started killing innocent jewish people. If you are older, you remember when all these countries openly called for the extermination of Israel as explicit foreign policy.

As of a few days ago, 33% of DEMOCRATS still see israel in a positive light https://news.gallup.com/poll/657125/views-israel-ukraine-mex...

You can argue that the AIPAC influences american's opinion, but it is actual american reported opinion that we should support Israel in their extermination of "terrorists".



Biden passed more consequential legislation than almost any president since FDR. The chips act, the inflation reduction act, the infrastructure act. The list goes on and on. He even had a bipartisan immigration bill that was closer to being passed than any other bill. He was an incredibly effective legislative leader while in office.


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instead of arguing about who is the worst rapist, maybe we could try to stop electing rapists in general?


Novel idea. But don't allow cynical people with obviously fake accusations nullify the very real accusations against very real monsters.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/31/politics/tara-reade-defects-r...



All 26 Clinton flights were after the Presidency.

Trump's flights on the same plane were pre-Presidency. (As was their friendship, and their being close neighbors.)



> Trump's flights on the same plane were pre-Presidency. (As was their friendship, and their being close neighbors.)

Their friendship was over when Trump banned him from mar-a-lago 2007 and then worked with prosecutors and provided information against Epstein in 2008.



Trump's claim to have banned him from Mar-a-Lago is as credible as his claim to be able to end the Ukraine war 24 hours after his election.


If you have any information or evidence of the claim that he did not in fact ban Epstein. I would love to read it. Without evidence I’ll just assume this is your opinion. It’s not hard to see your motive by the way you presented the information in your previous comment. Presenting opinions as fact is not necessary and doesn’t add to the conversation.


Sure. The WaPo says the only evidence for that claim is Trump asserting it. https://archive.is/XK0A7

> Trump has also said — without providing details — that he at some point banned Epstein from Mar-a-Lago.

I am generally not inclined to take the man at his word.

It also notes that, if the breakup happened, it was likely over a piece of real estate.



> I’m generally not included to take the man at his word.

But I’ll listen to a journalist tell me what I want to hear and confirm my bias.

> we have no idea if it really happened but if it did, it wasn’t because he was a pedo, it’s because of a real estate deal.

According to the Washington Post the real estate deal that ended their friendship was in 2004.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/donald-trump-and-jef...



Bibi's interests != Israeli interests


Israel is going to need to be a lot more internationally vocal if they disapprove of Bibi. I know the majority of american folks of jewish descent disapprove of Bibi's actions but his polling in Israel is a lot less unfavorable.


There have been many enormous protests against him in Israel, where a large part of the country regards him as corrupt and ineffectual (though not everyone agrees on why, eg left and right would like him to be less and more militaristic). But these protests get little coverage in US news media. Mind you I don't think this is peculiar to Israel, foreign affairs coverage in the US is just generally dreadful, partly because many Americans just do not care about the rest of the world.


For all intents and purposes Bibi is the elected Prime Minister of Israel across several elections.

Trying to simply say their interest diverge sounds irresponsible.



Did you notice that you are replying to a top-level post which accuses the twice elected president of the USA of acting against American interests?

"Having a democratic mandate" is either a valid counterargument or it is not. But it is simply not consistent to apply it only to Netanyahu and not to Trump.



Likewiwe I'm applying it to Trump, Starmer, Macron or even Xi and Putin.

The point is that I'm tired of the electorate washing their hands from their leaders' antic. Society get the leader they deserve.



Most Israelis are fully aligned on what Bibi has been doing. Sure, they like to say that they hate him to maintain decency, but when it comes to his actual policies on Palestinians, 90% of Israelis are fully on board.


people have been saying that for 20 years, and yet, Bibi is still there


[citation needed]


Israelis will be in for a very bad after backing and helping russia. They forgot too quickly how jews have been treated there.


The US siding unconditionally with Israel is nothing new. The US siding with Russia against democratic allies is absolutely new.

And even then, I don't think any US president ever treated any leader in such a disgraceful manner. Not only heads of state, even the Taliban got a ton more respect (probably too much) than this.

Of course we already knew that Trump liked dictators and tyrants, and disrespects any form of decency, but now that the masks are truly coming off, what's underneath them is a lot more ugly than I could possibly imagine.



This is so absolutely right. Trump is undoing all of the intentional institutions that the USA created. He is literally dismantling nearly one hundred years of consistent effort across every administration to serve US interests by structuring a global system based on a reliable and coherent US foreign policy. It just so happens that this is also the same global system that was used to isolate Russia with sanctions and defense agreements. The amount that Russia gains here is hard to fathom. The US just permanently lost world power status. No one will ever trust the US to be the world leader again. This will be a fundamental and permanent shift.


Your statement doesn't make sense.

Most Americans do support Israel and are very opposed to Putin and Russia.

Check the polls.

Which is why it's suspicious that JD Vance and Trump seem so afraid to upset Putin.

The idea that Russsia could have compromising information on one or both of them is entirely plausible. It's a way politicians have been controlled for literally thousands of years. J. Edgar Hoover controlled every US president for fifty years with this one simple trick.



61% Americans opposed sending weapons to Israel. They got sent anyway [1]. Similarly at world stage, American govt had to bring out the veto card 49 times in Israel's defense- it was alone against the world, even all of it's strongest European allies [2].

[1] https://www.scribd.com/document/740568401/Cbsnews-20240609-S.... Question No 52.

[2] https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/49-times-us-has-used-veto...



Neither of these points contradict the fact that Americans very broadly support Israel and are opposed to Putin and Russia. Of course there are varying degrees of support on any specific issue.

Yes, the UN has attempted many more resolutions against Israel than against China for its treatment of millions of Uyghurs, North Korea for enslaving its entire population, Russia for murdering tens of thousands, Iran for its direct terrorism, and the list goes on. Which is not exactly the ethical high ground you seem to think it is.



https://news.gallup.com/poll/642695/majority-disapprove-isra...

Majority in U.S. Now Disapprove of Israeli Action in Gaza

Approval has dropped from 50% to 36% since November



>Yes, the UN has attempted many more resolutions against Israel than against China for its treatment of millions of Uyghurs, North Korea for enslaving its entire population, Russia for murdering tens of thousands, Iran for its direct terrorism, and the list goes on. Which is not exactly the ethical high ground you seem to think it is.

Whataboutism.

When China starts bombing hospitals, let us know.



Most people also want a negotiated end to the war: https://harvardharrispoll.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/02/HHP...

Americans aren’t wiling to invest in what it would take to win the war. So Trump has to break Zelensky’s spirit so there can be a settlement.



There are several (and a few directly conflicting) polls in that document which I think reflects realty - most people haven't come down hard on stances involving Ukraine and remain flexible. As an example: "Do you favor or oppose Donald Trump announcing direct U.S.-Russia negotiations to end the war in Ukraine?" 60% in favor, but "Do you favor or oppose the Trump administration leaving Ukraine’s leaders out of negotiations with Russia to end the war in Ukraine?" 41% in favor. Additionally 57% oppose territorial concessions (which Trump has forced to be on the table) and 66% favor US security guarantees (which Trump has so far demurred on and tried to foist off onto the EU).

To me, at least, it's pretty clear that the negotiations are not in line with the will of the American populace as territorial concessions, resource concessions, no security guarantees and no multi-lateral opposition force to Russian expansionism have seemed like priorities to the current administration.



That may be the game theory, but the reality is it will galvanize non-US support for Ukraine while further isolating the US from historic allies.

Europe cannot let Putin win. It’s obvious that Poland or the Baltics would be next, and the further they let Putin go the worse it gets.

So instead, the US will either be neutral or supporting Russia. Not a great outcome for anyone except Russia.



It’s a great outcome for americans, who don’t care what happens in europe. If europe could handle its own business Trump and his voters would be thrilled.


And the US did not have interests in Ukraine? As if the past two decades never happened?


The US had no interests in Ukraine, it had no interest in Iraq, it had no interest in Kuwait, it had no interest in Vietnam, etc.

Ukraine was a member of the Soviet Union since 1917. Was it hurting America to not have Ukraine as an “ally” that whole time? Clearly not!



Not sure if sarcasm or some type of counterfactual history?

It does not matter how we ended up here, but we have an obligation to select for the least bad outcome.



And people don't want the government anywhere near their lives, until people with big sticks start poking at them instead.

The US populace can stick its head in the sand & say the rest of the world doesn't need them, but what if a superpower starts snapping up that rest of the world?



It would be understandable to step back from Ukraine. There's a reasonable argument to be made there. I disagree, but I can understand the position.

It's not understandable to support Russia and say things like Ukraine started the war. That's just pure ignorant bullshit.



It's a typical garbled Trumpism. But what do you know about the history of the end of the Cold War? You knew that the U.S. assured Russia at the time that NATO would not expand to Russia's border, did you not? https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017...


>It’s obvious that Poland or the Baltics would be next, and the further they let Putin go the worse it gets.

Poland would wipe the floor with Russia.



Americans are supporting Russia now. Not just not helping Ukraine to save money. USA leadership is actively and openly supporting Russia.

USA does not have to do that, USA want to do that. They could stay away, they could support Ukraine. USA choice however was to support Russia.



could you perhaps give a few non-imaginary examples of this?


How about saying Ukraine started the war, calling Zelenskiy a dictator (while refusing to call Putin one), saying Ukraine needs to give up land to Russia, calling for elections in Ukraine (again crickets about Russian elections), calling for improved economic relationships with Russia, while at the same time trying to force Ukraine into a ridiculous "deal" where they give up all their natural resources for essentially nothing... Can I stop?


The fact that we have to point this out is so frustrating. My whole family is buy the Russian propaganda entirely. And these basic facts don’t make it through their eco chambers. Worse any evidence is dismissed as fake news. I don’t think America can come back from this. Russia won the Cold War.


Harvard-Harris poll have a well known right wing bias, enough so that Harvard students are calling to disassociate from them. They’re especially flagrant in how they lead on the poll respondents. For example, they use Israel vs Hamas instead of Israel vs Palestinenin their poll questions.

A more neutral and far more informative and useful poll is YouGov-Economist poll. Their methodology is based on app polling instead of phone polling. They subdivide their responses based on demographics, and they poll every week, often repeating the same questions to gauge trends for very detailed analysis.

Wish more pollsters were like YouGov.



Agreed - most people would basically like to see an end to the war, which is what is broadly envisioned by a "negotiated end to the war".

But I'd question your assumption that Americans aren't willing to invest what it would take to win the war (depending on what a victory entails) and instead I'd suggest that this assumption needs a bit more research. I for one am very happy to see our tax dollars be used to support Ukraine, primarily because I think it's an investment in preventing a more expensive war in the future. It's unfortunate because we are basically just incurring a cost we didn't want to incur, but at the end of the day this is just the hand we're dealt with.



The overall tenor of this thread, and this comment in particular, is diving right into deep conspiracy theory territory.

There’s a huge difference between supporting an ally with common interests and being somehow controlled by them.

The idea that Israel - or AIPAC - is somehow in control of the US government is straight out of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.



> The idea that Israel - or AIPAC - is somehow in control of the US government is straight out of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

Not sure why you bring this up, but the facts are very clear. Previous US administration broke its own laws that prohibit them to supply weapons to parties engaged in gross violations of human rights and war crimes. Among many things, AIPAC even unsit a Jewish(!) congressman whose only crime was to mention that Palestinians deserve human rights and dignity.



You need to re-frame the US/Israel alliance. Right now, it is more a far right alliance between Trump and Netanyahu. It's no longer about either of the states involved or the interactions they may have had in the past.

And to be extremely clear, because it's very likely someone will reply to claim antisemitism - I have a problem with Netanyahu and what Israel does under his leadership. I do not have a problem with people who identify as Jewish, ethnically or religiously.



There have been many books written on the subject, as in my previous comment, I suggested The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy.

It's not antisemitic or even remotely conspiratorial to acknowledge that Israel and Israeli-Americans have been very successful in exerting influence on the federal government. I think it's bad-faith well-poisoning for you to bring up nonsense like the Protocols.



Much as I’d love to debate you about this here, I don’t think either of us will convince the other - or anyone else - in this format.

Always happy to have a real conversation about difficult issues.



I agree. Although we should not downplay how vulnerable democracy can be to outside influence. And that can have significant negative consequences. Particularly as things like "national interest" are so debatable.


Totally agree with this. It’s also totally irrelevant and a false equivalency. Seeing how quickly a conversation shift to antisemitism is disheartening.


I agree this is unproven conspiracy theory BS, but there are a great many conspiracy theories being espoused in this post. I’m curious why it is only this one you saw fit to call out?


Not said as a joke: It isn’t a conspiracy if they actually are out to get you. I am seeing my country go down in a blaze of corruption in front of my very eyes.


How does footing the bill for a futile war in a country that the US has nothing to do with meet the needs of Americans?


The needs of America, never hand anything to do with it ( except under Democrats who view has us resist oppression ), its Manifest Destiny, Law of Nations all the way.

1. We are not footing the bill, we are providing for part of the cost. "Europe gave $275 Billion. United states gave $125 Billion" 2. The U.S. has citizens in Ukraine, just as Ukraine has citizens year. 3. It is not about needs... Americans have needs to feel safe from oppression, and a stable economy, both of those are out of the question now, thanks in no small part to this type of information manipulation/Disinformation.

Rather than counter all your claims with facts, who needs facts, and your inflammatory language. I shall leave you to Minos.



How does it matter to the “needs” of the american people what happens to Ukraine one way or the other?


Money. US profits immensely from a stable world order. Peace and predictability is good for business.

Security guarantees also prevent nuclear proliferation. If Ukraine is defeated, the lesson many countries will learn is to have a strong nuclear deterrent.



The US profits off war. War is the easiest way to stimulate the economy.


That depends. It was true of WW2, but that had a unique set of circumstances. The US economy performed much better in the 90s, after the end of the Cold War, then it did in the 2000s with the invasions of Iraq/Afghan


But is it though?


How much money? Can you point me to studies that show this?


Here, I have just the thing, a study of how much it ultimately costs to appease belligerent European powers:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II

Now remember that this time everyone has nukes.



[flagged]



For the love of god could you engage with a single argument anywhere in this entire thread?


There are no “arguments” being raised here. An argument would be something like “America relies on Ukraine as a key source of XYZ so it would be bad if Russia took it over.” Can you even tell me without looking how much U.S.-Ukraine trade there was before the war?

All these platitudes about “interests” and “soft power” seem to be predicated on an assumption that nobody is willing to articulate. Are we all expected to be Francis Fukuyama cultists here who take it as axiomatic that it’s in america’s interest to defend the borders of european countries? If that’s the argument, then I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree. Because I happen to think liberals have actually been right on that issue since the 1970s.



That's shockingly first-order. Even if there was zero bilateral US-Ukraine trade as of 2022 there's:

(a) trade with other EU partners that depend on Ukrainian food imports, gas transshipments, etc., and also on those trade partners. y'know, not being embroiled in trench war on their eastern front.

(b) trade with APAC partners that depends on EU partners that depends on (a). Even the most blatantly obvious ASML -> TSMC -> NVDA -> FAANGetc relationship transits that entire chain.

(c) the entire web of mutually beneficial international trade that benefits from (1) a more or less stable system of borders and laws and (2) again, participants in said system burning the minimum amount of blood and treasure trenches.

So what is it you really think? US involvement is unnecessary to maintain both its current position and the rest of the international system? Or that system unnecessary to maintain the state of the world today, and some alternative arrangement would be preferable? And we can smoothly transition to your preferred system with a belligerent Russia?

I'm being a bit unfair in the preceding paragraph, so I'll ask in all sincerity: what's your alternative policy in 2014? 2022? now? what outcomes do you predict under your policy? Who is (dis)advantaged?



I think Reagan republicans are wrong and i don’t think free trade is all that beneficial.


The argument is that appeasing Putin in Donbas will work about as well as appeasing him in Crimea, creating successively more damaging conflicts in Europe until Article 5 gets tested and either NATO falls apart or we enter a hot war with Russia, and yeah, that's gonna cost money. You know that this is the point of the WWII comparison, which is why you have so studiously ignored the argument, trying to dodge it harder than neo dodging bullets in the first matrix.


Nobody in America knows what a Donbas or a Crimea is. These all sound like Russian places to me. The names of the places alone sound like they are none of America’s business.


And as we all know the only valid assessment of a foreign policy prescription the median American's opinion.


The median american is a lot smarter than the eggheads that have gotten us into pointless war after pointless war over the last 70 years.


You need studies to show that peace & stability support greater productivity and wealth?

Likely as it is that research can indeed confirm this, given the depth & tone of your inquiry, perhaps the most immediate convincing experiment would be best: find someone you can employ to harass and threaten your property and your person, occasionally to devastating effect, alongside another person who can study your productivity and wealth before and after.

Perhaps with further similar efforts here you can even persuade some people to volunteer for half of that project free of charge.



Your debate tactic reminds me of some variation of the gish gallop. I thought there was a word for it, but I can't find it.

You just ask question after question after question after question, with an extremely disproportionate amount of effort required between you and the person you are asking, and hope that the other side eventually gives up.

Edit: jakelazaroff pinned it down for me, "sealioning"



No. vardump specifically said that the money from stability justifies spending money to support Ukraine. That is only true if the latter is outweighed by the former.

We know the amount spent in support of Ukraine. The only missing piece of the puzzle is the specific dollar valuation of the deterrence value of further assistance to Ukraine to resist the Russian invasion.

If Ukraine regaining its pre-2022 (or pre-2014) borders is not worth a dollar value that exceeds the cost to achieve that outcome, then vardump's assertion of "money" as the reason is insufficient.



The U.S. failing Ukraine sends a signal you can get away with invasions. So it's not just about Ukraine.

The full global consequences can be devastating.



That's what "deterrence value" means.


Say it results in a global nuclear war. That might be the worst case scenario.

What's the dollar value of that?



I'm referring to their comments in totality, not just this one specific example.


If “interests” means something concrete it shouldn’t take a lot of effort to explain what it means. To me it seems like the word is used to avoid acknowledging that “there’s no there, there.”


You do this same tactic in every political thread I've seen your name pop up in from as early as I can remember recognizing your name on this site.

Sometimes your questions seem legitimate. Often they don't (they might be! but they don't read so).

But, this is probably getting a bit too meta and off-topic. Sorry for the derailment.





I think GP is probably looking for sealioning: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning


That's the one! Thank you.


Enough that it makes Trump very upset whenever another country talks about using a reserve currency other than the dollar. Why would you need studies when you have the leader's own words?


You’re a very smart guy. You can’t seriously be wondering how allowing a major power to wage and win a war of aggression in Europe might be contrary to American interests? He’ll surely be appeased by the Donbas and stop there, right?


I am a smart guy—which is why even as a college student I knew the Iraq War was going to be a monumental cluster fuck.

To me, it seems like the people supporting American involvement in Ukraine are throwing about the same vague platitudes about “dictators” and “interests” without anything concrete to back them up.

At least Iraq and its neighbors had oil—there was a credible narrative that what happened there would directly hit Americans in their pocket books. American interest in Europe seems even more attenuated. It seems to be nothing more than romantic sympathy.



Iraq is not the correct analogy. Iraq put us a bit over our skis attempting to enforce our desired norms while entertaining some acquisitive impulses against an inferior opponent with ultimately limited aims. i.e. Saddam wasn’t interested in taking over the world.

The conclusion to draw from that is not that all conflict and cruelty outside the New World is irrelevant to Americans and their interests. You’re a bit older than me, but neither of us have experienced a world with a truly aggressive near-peer power. We’ve lived our entire lives on the laurels of our grandfathers’ victories in Europe and Asia. The resulting international system organized around fixed borders, the rule of law, and low barriers has allowed to flourish the multitude of mutually beneficial trade relationships that support literally the entirety of the only way of life either of has ever known.

It’s an unstable equilibrium. To not defend order against might risks knocking the whole thing down - and then who knows? Maybe we carry on with China and the rest of APAC while Russia dominates Europe? Maybe we live a decade or a generation of poorer, meaner, more isolated lives confined to the New World? Maybe the expansionary impulse brings them, eventually, to our shores?



Iraq wasn’t a mistake. Iraq exemplified the type of error you make and will continue to make when you commit the U.S. to enforcing “rule of law” around the world. Heck, the very concept of international “rule of law” is repugnant-that means there must be some country enforcing the law.

The US has among the lowest levels of trade dependency of any country in the world. In 1960, which is remembered as a Golden Age, trade was just 10% of GDP. We would be just fine, probably better, living in a world where regional powers kept their back yards clean and the occasional border skirmish broke out. Even if that meant somewhat reduced trade.

Empire also imposes a demographic cost on america. Every time we destroy a country in a war trying to maintain the “rules based order” we have to accept a massive influx of refugees. In the long run these people will not be able to maintain the american system the founding population created.



Fundamentally different situation. A more appropriate comparison would be the first Gulf War, when the US helped to kick Iraq out of Kuwait. Equating the later Iraq war with the situation in Ukraine is a category error.


Don't let Mr /r/iamverysmart duck the question about Donbas by diverting into a conversation about Iraq.


On your aside: I'll admit, I said that completely sincerely, they've had pretty informative and well-informed things to say in other discussions around here. Coming back with "Yes I am" has caused me to update my beliefs a bit.


I agree the first gulf war is a better comparison. In our household we thought Bush was wrong about that too, and I recall my dad being quite happy he lost reelection over it. I’d argue it set us up to get roped in for Round 2.


Bush didn't lose re-election over the first Gulf War, which on the whole went swimmingly for the US in a very short timeframe. He lost because he looked out of touch in his electioneering and didn't know the price of milk during a debate with Bill Clinton. There was a recession underway that drained some of the froth out of the irrationally exuberant 1980s. Of course it didn't help him that he was basically a CIA policy wonk whereas Clinton was the most charismatic candidate since Kennedy.


Crimea is the better comparison. The US appeased Russia on Crimea in 2014 (the sanctions were too weak) and it caused the Ukraine invasion in 2022. Why would appeasing on Donbas in 2025 work better?


It should perhaps be of american interest to support its allies. As its allies did to support the so-called war on terrorism with Afghanistan and Iraq.

Those two wars imo changed USA and put the country in debt and misalignment internally. Bush was an absolute catastrophy.

You can't point the fingers at the leaders. Even though the country is not a democracy, but a business club with only two parties, being funded by companies.

USA is no longer, and hasn't been for decades, very far from Russia in its cribbled walk towards war and destruction.

I can't see how the country can uphold its stance with their allies and when China makes their move, it will leave US on its own.

As for Europe, it might be a slow starter, but rather that than having to fight for even then smallest equality rights and options.

Wow, how I really dislike american politics and leadership, and its not just its current government.



The U.S. is strong because of our own power, but also because of our many many friends with a shared worldview. We use the word "interests" to cover how our friends help us in every situation, big or small.

For example, the US needs many raw materials and manufactured goods. Our economy is extremely strong because we get these easily and with little friction. Other countries trust our trade deals so they enter into them willingly. And so whenever the US needs a new import, we get it quickly and cheaply. As a concrete example, NVidia gets prime access to foundries and components. Sure, they spend money on it, but our "interests" ensure that the process is frictionless. Any other country would have a harder time.

We also have near universal military access. No other country even comes close. We nearly have permission in advance to go anywhere. If US shipping is interrupted, no one complains when our navy goes and uninterrupted it. In fact we are welcomed. If a US citizen is taking hostage, governments from the area want to help us.

Also, maybe you've noticed that no one is even close to attacking the US. We are so strong that it would be suicide, and that's partly because of our own strength, but also because of our many allies who would back us up.

Finally, we have moral interests. I believe everyone should live in a system based on laws, should elect their own leaders, and should have basic freedoms. The more we spread liberalism and democracy the better the world is.

Sure, you can nitpick about counterexamples. The Iraq war is a perfect example of messing this up. And not every country loves us.

But if you cannot see that the majority of countries are overwhelmingly friendly towards the US, and that we get enormous military and economic benefits, then you are blind.



> The U.S. is strong because of our own power, but also because of our many many friends with a shared worldview

You’re starting off on the wrong foot. That’s just Reagan-Bush universalism and everyone who bought into that stupid ideology has been wrong about everything my entire lifetime.

The way you say it, the Iraq War was simply poor execution of a basically sound ideology. To the contrary, the Iraq War was a predictable outcome of the notion that democracy promotion is in America’s material interest, or that it’s worth our while to police borders around the world. That’s a bad idea, rooted in a Christian/post-Christian version of the Ummah and the Iraq War should have discredited that ideology. If you continue to buy into those mistaken premises, a repeat of Iraq/Vietnam/Korea is inevitable.



> everyone who bought into that stupid ideology has been wrong about everything my entire lifetime

In 2014, McCain absolutely nailed his prediction on Ukraine 2022. Did you?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLAzeHnNgR8



> You’re starting off on the wrong foot. That’s just Reagan-Bush universalism and everyone who bought into that stupid ideology has been wrong about everything my entire lifetime.

This doesn't respond to my comment at all. You're just calling stuff stupid.



So you really think the world as we know it works just fine if everyone defends their own borders and attacks their neighbors' at will?


You shouldn't let someone bait you into tangent town like rayiner just did. He was posed a sharp question ("Will Putin stop at Donbas?") and he ducked it for a reason.


I didn’t answer the question about Donbas because it’s a non-sequiter. Who cares if he stops at Donbas or somewhat further than that? Domino theory was a stupid idea when Kissinger came up with it and it’s a stupid idea now. Do you think Russia is going to invade Germany? Germany doesn’t seem to think so, otherwise it would be investing heavily in defense.


You were wrong about the last domino but "trust me bro" on the next one? Lol, no thanks.


I know rayiner is a troll who misunderstands things on purpose. Defining "interests" seemed like a fun exercise.


Fair, so long as you remember to practice framing / flow control elsewhere. Don't forget leg day!


> I am a smart guy

...



Thats like asking, who cares if a drug dealer moves next door, he/she is not in your house.


Okay, we’re getting closer to a real point. Why do I care about a drug dealer taking over the house next to him when both houses are in another state?


Because him taking over a house gives him access to resources which he can use to build up strength, unchecked, and before you know it, the state next to you is involved in serious tumroil that affects your job, getting certain products, and so on.

And next thing you know, people who directly work for that drug dealer are all in your states government, and your way of life is slowly starting to get worse, and the only option you have is either go along and be constantly afraid, or revolt and risk of losing your life.

If you dont think it can happen, i envy your ignorance.



that drug dealer has managed to make the executive of the federal government act as if they work for him.


Why does it matter to the American people what happens to Poland in WW2?

Do you think we exist in a vacuum? The whole reason we have foreign policy is because there are major dire ramifications to conflicts across the world. Especially, as we've seen the past century, in Europe.



Is Ukraine like Poland, or more like Korea, Vietnam, Kuwait, Iraq, and Afghanistan?


What is the basis of this analogy? Is it implying that the difference between North Korea and South Korea is negligible to the world?


Very different type of war... Especially Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan...


Ukraine checks all the boxes for exploration by Oligarchs, North Korea does not. Kuwait had oil, Iraq


Ukraine is literally the middle of Europe. Those countries are not. You're shilling very hard for russia.


No personal attacks, please, regardless of how wrong someone is or you feel they are.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html



because the world is highly interconnected and it's much more expensive to deal with the results of instability than it is to try to prevent the instability in the first place


So you think Kissinger and all the GOP neocons for decades were actually correct?

I thought we had discredited that whole ideology—from Kissinger to Bush—but apparently we haven’t.



Saying we're more interconnected and that it's important to support stability doesn't mean that I support US hegemony, the domino theory and the need for military intervention everywhere. In fact I'm quite against US military action abroad, certainly in places like Iraq and Vietnam where it had no business being. But in this case, if a country like Russia is able to push its way into Ukraine unopposed, it does threaten the stability of Europe (a place where warfare was almost continuous going back millennia) which is a ReallyBadThing for Europe and for the US (and I don't mean for US hegemony, but for the US economy and wellbeing).


We are more interconnected, and Kissinger and the GOP agreed with this, but they are just evil German Socialist Democratic Party. His observation is well taken, but its a false flag to equate it with the entire neocon, unalive and steal at any cost philosophy:

They are not the same: Clearly they are not the same.

https://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/30/opinion/30iht-edkissinger...



Well the US created the global system starting in the 1900s with the League of Nations and continuing with the UN, NATO, free trade agreement and multilateral alliances. So nearly one hundred years of constant policy across administrations felt it was a system that served our interests. It also lead to absolute transformation of people’s lives for the better in America and globally. Who didn’t like that system? Russia. They were isolated and sanctioned. So please explain why trump’s 180 degree turn served the US. The burden of proof is on you given the history of US policy.


> Who didn’t like that system

Most of the world didn’t like that system, along with most american liberals until five minutes ago. We even made movies mocking it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Team_America:_World_Police.

Eisenhower thought that system should be temporary, and Jimmy Carter took pride that an american bomb was never dropped anywhere during his term.

Our foreign policy has been stuck in a doom loop of thinking that everything is like World War II for 70 years now. And whatever benefits we might have gained can’t possibly offset what we lost fighting pointless war after pointless war: Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, etc. We have spent trillions of dollars to make the world free for trade that has hollowed out the economy and enriched globalists.

That’s not even counting all the millions of people we have killed in the process of our liberal democracy jihad.



If you don't understand why stability in Europe matters to America, you might want to read about World War II.

It had a rather pronounced affect on America. Some other countries too, I think.



Without WWII the US would likely have never become the world's superpower.


And without abandoning its allies it would have likely remained a superpower going forwards. That's suddenly in question.


I support Atlanticism, but this overestimates the US's need and relations with Europe (EU and non-EU) in the 21st century.

Our trade with APAC dwarfs total European trade, and America has ~150k armed personnel deployed in the Pacific versus ~65k in Europe.

Europe can and should be able to manage Russia and Africa for us - this is what they did well until the 2000s. Both Dem and Republican admins since the Bush admin have been pushing for Europe to regain it's strategic autonomy.

Trump is absolutely mismanaging this relationship, but a broken clock is right twice a day.



> this overestimates the US's need and relations with Europe (EU and non-EU) in the 21st century

If Europe goes to war America is in a higher state of defcon even if we try to pretend we’re uninvolved. Global trade would crash which means a lot of middle class jobs vanishing.



Absolutely not denying that at all!

But the perception (even before Trump) was that our European allies can and should be able to hold down the fort in Europe, because it's increasingly looking like we cannot fight a two-continent war, and we at least have strategic depth in Europe, and not at all in the Pacific.



One way to avoid a two-continent war is to lend money to our European ally to buy weapons from us.

Another way is to sacrifice one continent.

I, and many others, can't stomach the second. Particularly when we built their security order, they certainly weren't managing Russia for us until the 2000s.



> One way to avoid a two-continent war is to lend money to our European ally to buy weapons from us.

I agree and prefer this method, but certain European states (looking at you Germany) will also have to drastically increase military spending as well.

The pot of military financial aid also needs to go to Asian allies like Japan, South Korea, Australia, New Zealand, Taiwan, and Philippines along with aligned states like Vietnam, Indonesia, Thailand, and India.

> Another way is to sacrifice one continent

Which I dislike but is something the Trump admin has appeared to have chosen.



The idea Europe just needs to invest more is dated.

Yes, there's stuff in the news right now about Germany military spending - secretary of defense said they anticipated yet another increase package of 6.7B euros, and only got 1.2B.

Military spending is up dramatically from even 2 years ago, much less when you'd hear this argument from more dedicated hands, let's say, 2019, 2021.

It's a particularly poor timing to make the argument, because even if we elide every increase until Sunday, we're still left with Germany reacting to this by adding $100B over the next 4 years.

If if it wasn't out of date, I think it's important to state plainly the idea is: Europe needs to spend more in defense because the US decided to pull all support, even from things as simple as continuing to sell Europe defensive supplies as it fights Russia, and also hand chunks of Europe to Russia.

It's somewhat gut-wrenching to hear an out of date argument, in so many separate ways, as justification for rugging them completely. It causes nausea when its coupled to a shrug about broken clocks.



> It's a particularly poor timing to make the argument, because even if we elide every increase until Sunday, we're still left with Germany reacting to this by adding $100B over the next 4 years

And what stopped Germany from doing so in 2022, or 2019, or 2014?

And this is why there is resentment in the US - we've been telling Germany (and other European) states to do this for decades.

I'll reiterate this again - China is the primary threat against the US. Russia is bad as well, but China is the bigger bad.

American soldiers are directly in the line of fire in Taiwan, South Korea, and Okinawa. Yet South Korea and Japan have both worked on maintaining military capacity and spending after brushes in 2011 and 2016.

And it's been Germany that has constantly undermined French and British attempts at a Pan-European force because German leadership does not want expeditionary capabilities that France and the UK needs [0], and France is the only EU state left that has a true world class MIC.

> It's somewhat gut-wrenching to hear an out of date argument, in so many separate ways, as justification for rugging them completely

Because the "spend more" argument from the US has been coming for 15 years now. And it takes 3-4 years just to on-ramp manufacturing capacity.

Devoting funding alone is not enough to ramp up manufacturing overnight. We have been warning about this for decades, and now Germany (and even some of our other allies like France and UK) now have to contend with this on their own.

I worked as a Dem staffer in the early 2010s and even I am in agreement with Trump about this - because this is a policy that even Obama was driving.

We've been warning your leadership that something like this would happen for 15 years now. Yet your leadership did not listen. When even a Dem like me who worked in NatSec Policy is frustrated, you know much of Europe has burnt any goodwill that remains.

[0] - https://carnegieendowment.org/research/2024/12/the-joint-exp...



I think you're a strong interlocutor for a position I need to understand more.

- "Our trade with APAC dwarfs total European trade"

I assume we have a shared understanding that more than just Europe was affected by WWII.

- "Europe can and should be able to manage Russia and Africa for us"

What does manage mean?

- "this is what they did well until the 2000s."

Was America involved in any of the management of Russia that went well prior to the 2000s?

- "Both Dem and Republican admins since the Bush admin have been pushing for Europe to regain it's strategic autonomy."

Europe certainly has strategic autonomy, no?

Overall, my impression is the argument completely elides NATO, the US role in it, and the US leadership role in it.



> I assume we have a shared understanding that more than just Europe was affected by WWII

Absolutely, but they were 2 different wars with entirely different personas and leadership.

For example, China and Japan treat WW2 as having started in 1936-37 and don't really view or care about WW1 or the European theaters of WW2

And European dependencies in Asia were already autonomous at that point (eg. British India had it's own autonomous military and political leadership after the 1920s era reforms independent of London, Dutch Indonesia and it 1930s era reforms, and French Indochina as well as they largely retained the pre-colonization era leadership).

> What does manage mean

Problems on the European and African continent should be dealt with by our European allies. Ideally, the US provides some amount of support and armament, but strategy within Europe and France should fall onto individual European allies.

You saw this in Ukraine pre-2022 with the UK and Turkiye helping Ukraine rebuild it's armed forces, and in much of the Sahel with French armed forces tamping down on Islamism and Russian/Chinese backed factions.

> Europe certainly has strategic autonomy, no

The issue is, what is "Europe".

There needs to be a much stronger unification of posture and strategy amongst our European allies, but you would often see France and Germany clash because France wants to ensure a unified European force has expeditionary capabilities (because of French dependencies in the Pacific and Africa), but Germany constantly pushes back because they want to remain Central Europe first.

On top of that, individual European MICs directly compete with each other and extremely furiously. For example, Dassault, Eurofighter GmBH, and Saab trying to undercut each other in global fighter jet sales.

And finally, individual European states do not see eye to eye. For example, France+Italy tends to have a very strong co-sell relationship with Israel (a direct competitor to Turkiye) and targets the India (a competitor to Pakistan) and UAE (a competitor to Saudi) market.

But Germany+Spain tends to have a very strong co-sell relationship with Turkiye (a direct competitor to Israel), who tends to sell to Pakistan (a direct competitor to India) and Saudi Arabia (a direct competitor to UAE)

While we would all want the EU to be a truly unified union, in it's present form, individual nation states will continue to zealously guard their soverignity.

And even on the economic front - to continue using the India example due to the plan to finalize the EU-India FTA this year [0] - countries like Germany+Spain directly compete with France+Italy, especially in the Automotive and Pharma sectors (two of Europe's largest and most globally competitive sectors).

For example, German+Spanish+Czech automotive manufacturers like Volkswagen AG (includes Spain's Seat and Czechia's Skoda) largely invested in China during the 2000s but French+Italian+Romanian manufacturers like Renault-Nissan, Citroen/Fiat/Stellantis, and Piaggo (scooters yes but THE scooter in India) invested heavily in India. An EU-India FTA doesn't impact French+Italian+Romanian manufacturers but directly undermines and harms German+Spanish+Czech manufacturers.

And Indian biopharma companies (the only manufacturing industry that India is competitive at globally) are largely partnerships with French (Sanofi), British (GSK, AstraZeneca), Swiss (Novartis), Israeli (Teva), and Japanese (Takeda) players that directly compete with German firms like Bayer and Boehringer Ingelheim that invested in China.

While at a macro-level a EU-India FTA is good for European autonomy from the US or China, it will undercut German+Spanish+Czech companies and benefit French+Italian+Romanian companies, and as such Germany has been lobbying against it (and India has retaliated by fining Volkswagen group $1.4B in back taxes and an additional $1.4B in interest [1] - an amount that will destroy VW Group's business in India [2] and maybe even globally depending on Chinese and NAM sales as it's an amount that's 17% of their net income).

And this is one of dozens of examples where individual European nation states do not have strategic alignment, and why when push comes to shove, they all ignore the EU and prioritize their own domestic needs.

[0] - https://www.reuters.com/world/india/india-eu-agree-push-conc...

[1] - https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/india-...

[2] - https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/indias...



Sir: I posses a vast view of European history, Vast.

Apparently you have a vaster view.

Thank you.



Exactly how were they managing former Yugoslavia let alone the other two


UNPROFOR was primarily lead by French, Swedish, and Canadian military leadership. KFOR and IFOR was largely German and Italian.

Most of the blood, sweat, and tears of the UN and NATO intervention in Yugoslavia was European militaries like the Dutch, British, French, and Swedish.

The Clinton admin primarily provided air support and diplomatic cover, but most boots on the ground were European (and Canadian).

Lots of people forget that the UN was in Yugoslavia before the NATO intervention happened.



The EC monitors were first. UNPROFOR was there for Croatia initially. The Lisbon agreement in Bosnia in 1992 was supposed to have things like European judges on the constitutional court, which is something that people forget when they complain about Dayton. The national militaries famously had partiality to different sides of the conflict - French and Dutch vs Swedish and British.


Yep, yet nonetheless, it was an European initiative that helped solidify "Pan-Europeanism" as a doable initiative (it was also during the early stages of the EC turned EU).


I would argue that we did our bid for European stability, that everybody thought Ukraine would be quickly overrun. We don’t need to defend every inch of Ukrainian soil for us to consider it a success and a deterrent. We did far more here than Obama did to protect crimea.


     I would argue that we did our bid for European stability, 
     that everybody thought Ukraine would be quickly overrun.
Have we? I think we've taught Russia and China that they can annex whoever they want to annex.

We've taught them that it may or may not come at a high price, depending on which party happens to be in power at the moment.



Yes we raised the stakes considerably. Russia thought the Ukraine operation would be over in weeks.

Fast forward a few more years. Russia is encircling Kiev. Are we supposed to put American boots on the ground? Give them tactical nukes? Wouldn’t giving up then just “teach them” the same thing?



Is having a conflict in Ukraine somehow making Europe more stable? To be entirely honest, from realpolitik point of view what Trump is doing makes cold and calculated sense. He will sacrifice Ukraine so that it will become a rump buffer state between Europe and Russia, and then he can trade with both. That will satisfy Russia as well as their strategic goal (no NATO in Ukraine) was achieved and they can return to business as usual.


Since the beginning of the war in Ukraine Sweden and Finland have joined NATO, so now Russia has more, not less, border with NATO. How would a buffer on their southwestern border alleviate that?


It won't satisfy Russia, though. It will just give a thumbs up to them and anyone else wanting to make a land grab that they can go ahead and the US will look for appeasement. This is exactly the kind of thinking that lead to Chamberlain letting Hitler take the Sudetenland and Czechoslovakia.


And there is also hundreds of years of historical experience where establishing buffer states worked.


So how are you buffering Finland, or the Baltics? Where is Poland's buffer once you sacrifice Ukraine?


Like Belgium.

Oh wait...



US had interests in the Ukraine because it was a buffer state. By sacrificing a whole country to Putin, NATO suddenly has enemy neighbors.


> you might want to read about World War II.

you didn't read enough about wwii then. giving putin ukraine emboldens him further just like hitler



Look, the fact that you guys came here to Europe and liberate us from the nazi Germany, then you defeated Japan, made you a global superpower because you effectively won the war. You have been in this position since the war until 20th of January this year. Trump is actively removing USA from the position of the leader. Talking about leaving NATO, removing soldiers from Europe, … something that took decades to establish takes weeks to destroy.

What’s next? “TSMC give us all trade secrets or we don’t defend Taiwan”?

You have all there benefited from these decades of being in that position.



> TSMC give us all trade secrets or we don’t defend Taiwan

Trump has already threatened to impose 100% tariffs on Taiwan if TSMC refuses to transfer technology to the US (thus effectively undermining Taiwan's own Silicon Shield defence strategy) and revitalise Intel: https://techsoda.substack.com/p/tsmc-faces-tough-choices-ami...

I hope Taiwanese leaders have the balls to say no -- it's not as if Trump has a stellar track record of honouring his word anyway. Besides, tariffs on Taiwanese chips will end up seriously hurting American companies like AMD and NVIDIA, so Trump might walk back the tariffs once Jensen Huang and Lisa Su pay sufficiently large bribes.



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Dude. There’s always a bigger bully. National interest my ass. You’re being robbed by a bunch of hot shots and you smile and clap. The king Vladimir Trump is coming.


It sure looks like it.

Let's ask the question - if Russia was able to compromise the US president, what action would he take ?

I don't have answers very different from about what's going on right now.



That's what I keep coming back to. If I were trying to harm American interests, what would I do differently?

Nothing.



Exactly this. And that is such an important intellectual tool, the ability to extrapolate second and third order decisions and match them to people’s incentives lets you create accurate mental models of multiparty negotiations and interactions and predict how people will act in future situations. It’s really powerful.

Applying here, I would expect trump moves to lift sanctions and normalize trade with Russia. Europe, if it has a spine will sanction the US.



I find it hard to believe that the NSA/CIA don't have the capability to uncover, insert own players and stop this.


Well when the president hands over all the data they've been collecting it makes their job a lot harder

https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2023/12/politics/missing-rus...



During Cold War 1.0, a lot of analysts and operatives were 1st and 2nd gen immigrants from Eastern Europe, and had ties and culture experience to help inform policy against the Warsaw Pact.

After the 2000s, the US began increasingly limiting those with ethnic or potential familial ties from working beats related to those countries. A Chinese American wouldn't pass the security clearance muster for the China role, nor a Jewish American for an Israel role.

There were attempts to potentially remediate this during the Biden admin, but it fell to the wayside [0][1]

Some white dude who went to high school in White Plains and college at Tufts just isn't going to have the domain or cultural experience or knowledge needed to really understand China or Iran, and it legitimately has caused a lot of IR Policy to become divorced from reality.

[0] - https://www.politico.com/news/2021/03/16/state-department-di...

[1] - https://www.politico.com/news/2021/03/18/asian-americans-sta...



Interesting. Do US colleges and US TV/movies provide sufficient cultural understanding of US to other countries' governments, without them needing US immigrants as staffers?


> Do US colleges and US TV/movies provide sufficient cultural understanding of US to other countries' governments

Do French/German/Italian/?

They don't, and whatever global media Americans do consume tends to be Asian (overwhelmingly Japanese and Korean) or Latin American.

This isn't the 20th century anymore when a lot of 1st and 2nd gen immigrants had European ties. American in the 21st century is now Asia and Latin America facing.



Also, other countries send lots of students to the US. Some become immigrants but lots go back home.


Also, US-Europe immigration is largely moribund, so familial and social ties to European states are much weaker now than 50 years ago.

Most immigration to the US now comes from Asian and LatAm states, so a lot of us Americans prioritize those problems and needs above Europe.



This squares with Edward Luttwak's take:

https://unherd.com/2025/02/the-breakdown-of-the-cia



I'm shocked at how impotent they seem against Russian cultural warfare.


Russia, got the Propagandists from Germany in World War II. How much have computers gained in power? The Military grade disinformation has gained a lot of power, and yes, they weaponized it, and now own...


Because we have the 1st Amendment. It's (correctly) very hard to combat people just saying stupid shit in the US.


It's a cultural problem that we let so much bullshit slide. America has come to love the spectacle, and loud wrong people can make quite a show.

In a just society, there'd be a price to pay for lying. Free speech has consequences. Be loudly and persistently wrong (even when corrected by actual experts with real facts) and you get penalized with turning down the volume. But it's the exact opposite in today's media atmosphere.



Totally agreed, just not an easy thing for intelligence agencies to fiddle with/defend.


Sure, that's not their job. It's the cultural shift we've allowed in the face of an overwhelming onslaught on our attention span.


I agree… I was responding to GP who said it’s surprising that the IC has been “incompetent” at mitigating it. I believe, like you, it is not a job for the IC.


Alex Jones, Elon Musk, Donald Trump, and Joe Rogan are the four horsemen of the disinformation apocalypse.


The amount of incompetence, incomprehensible ideology and red-tape slows everything down. NSA and CIA still look powerful because of huge amount of funds that flow in. Other countries happily hack into our infrastructure. You hardly hear NSA doing such accomplishments anymore (last was the Iranian nuclear hack). I doubt if America has any powerful spy network in places in Russia or China. But hey, I am just a dumb citizen.


> You hardly hear NSA doing such accomplishments anymore

To be fair, that could also mean that they've been successful at keeping their covert operations... covert.



Maybe yes. If so, that is great. But then why do we not see any damage to those countries either due to misinformation or any other hacks. On a related note, Snowden incident shows the depth of our ability.


Which is why they put pro-Putin Gabbard in as DNI. She's been purging.


U.S intelligence agencies have never been particularly good at their job. Complaining about the deep state and such is cope from fascist and commies that have continually folded under no pressure.


    “It may be dangerous to be America's enemy, but to be America's friend is fatal.”
      -- Henry Kissinger
It's too simplistic (and IMHO not accurate) to say the American government has been commpromised by Russia. Go back a few years and you'll see American politicians from all parties saying how great it was that they've crippled the Russian military without a single American soldier being deployed and killed.

It's more accurate to say that foreign policy, which is bipartisan, is to loot the world. Domestic poicy is to divide up the spoils.

The US never took a moral stand for Ukraine. It was always through the lens of American imperial interests. This is no different.





As I understand it, the evidence that the US government has been compromised by Russia comes from documented instances of Russian interference and influence attempts, including election meddling and disinformation campaigns.


> It's too simplistic (and IMHO not accurate) to say the American government has been commpromised by Russia

Not the American government. Trump. They compromised the guy on top who established complete control over a party.

Depressingly simple.



The "Trump is a Russian asset" conspiracy theory is popular in BlueAnon circles but it really doesn't fit the facts.

A good example is the first Trump administration's opposition to Russian energy expansion in Europe because this would make Europe vulnerable to Russian influence. Trump opposed NordSream 2, for example. In 2018, Trump basically bullied Germany into building an LNG port [1].

Now Trump's energy policy as a whole was generally a disaster, which led up to the 2020 OPEC deal that basically caused Covid iflation but on the security of European energy, the Trump administration was correct and was proven so by the Ukraine invasion and the cutoff of Russian energy.

Trump idolizes strongmen and autocrats. It doesn't matter who. Putin. Kim Jong-Un, Victor Orban. Trump backs fascist political movements like AfD, Reform (UK) and National Front (France).

[1]: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/07/business/energy-environme...



"Trump opposed NordSream 2, for example."

Incorrect.

> The Nord Stream 2 pipeline went from zero to 90 percent completed during Trump’s presidency. The Trump administration rejected years of bipartisan congressional calls for imposition of sanctions to stop the project. Only when Congress, in frustration, passed mandatory sanctions they couldn't stop did the administration finally take concrete action. But by then it was too late.

> Trump’s first secretary of State Rex Tillerson was a 2013 recipient of an “Order of Friendship” from Putin in recognition of Tillerson’s contributions to cooperation with the Russian energy sector while he was CEO of Exxon-Mobil. Tillerson issued the fateful public guidance to energy companies that CAATSA sanctions would only apply to new Russian export pipelines — those contracted after August 2017. Contrary to the will of Congress, Nord Stream 2 was thus grandfathered in and outside the scope of sanctions.

> Under the Tillerson guidance, the five EU companies participating in Nord Stream 2 with Gazprom had no legal grounds to declare force majeure, and the project went forward at a rapid pace.

> But where it counted — actually imposing sanctions against the project at the key stage when it could be stopped — the administration did nothing. Indeed, Trump’s posture amounted to the worst of both words: alienating our German allies while failing to take action to stop the pipeline.

> As the Biden administration took office in 2021, Russian vessels were laying pipe for the final segments of Nord Stream 2. While U.S. sanctions in 2017 would have killed the project, by 2021 it was a fait accompli. The Biden administration denounced Nord Stream 2 as a “bad deal” and a danger to European energy security. But given the unlikelihood of stopping it at this stage and the need to rebuild relations with Germany shredded under Trump, the administration elected to waive sanctions.

https://thehill.com/opinion/energy-environment/4726844-trump...

He took a public stance against it while enabling it in private. Apparently that worked to fool enough people.



When literally everything he does it to the benefit of Russia, "Trump being a Russian asset" isn't a conspiracy theory, it's called "barely paying attention".


Paid traitors are repaying their debts, hopefully they'll get what they deserve.


I'm seriously considering leaving the U.S. I can't justify paying taxes to a government that leaves me feeling disheartened. The EU should have visa programs for skilled professionals looking to leave the U.S.


The following EU countries offer skilled worker visas: Netherlands, Germany, Finland, Portugal, Denmark. Also non-EU places such as Aus and NZ.


> The EU should have visa programs for skilled professionals looking to leave the U.S.

We don't have a skilled worker shortage in EU right now, we have a skilled jobs shortage. All white collar skilled job ads are flooded with local applicants, we don't need more immigrants to water down wages and push up rents. My (f500 company) company just laid off 70 SW & HW engineers at one office while I've been part of the layoffs before.

The real shortages are in healthcare, and tough jobs people don't like to do for little money, like construction or elderly care, but there's enough Europeans willing to work cushy office jobs there's no need to import foreign competition other than to appease the corporate pushed propaganda.



Yeah but we could use a whole bunch of tech companies. There should be a visa program for entrepreneurs. That should be always the case but especially now.


Yeah but entrepreneurs are not tech workers. Entrepreneurs get access to invest no issue.


Frustrating that the US will still apply income tax even if you're working abroad (I want to say over $130k/yr, but that could be wrong)


It does but most western countries have a double-tax agreement with the US so you won't end up paying any tax to the US


I’m sure you can find a country willing to send part of your paycheck to fight a war on the other side of the globe, go for it


Or whatever interests have compromised or bribed the administration


Surely that points towards Russia? What are you suggesting?


I read that as currently but not solely or always Russia.


I assume the insinuation is of Musk buying the presidency.


Which he unquestionably has. Look at what is happening with FAA and Verizon.


Consider there are interests in common between sectors in Russia and the USA that are not at the state level, but private capital.

In particular, both nations are energy exporters. And the political class in Russia is explicitly a petro-regime.

There's no need to go looking for conspiracy theories around Trump being "compromised."

He's behaving just like any wealthy person with ties to the energy sector would, should they seize state power. They are acting in the interests of the oil industry, both of them.

Capitalism doesn't really have borders. Borders are for chumps like you and I.



I might also mention elections being compromised. It is another clear target for Russia with an extremely high payoff. Feel certain they have not managed to hack the election?


Destroying USAid weakend US' soft power abroad. NATO's members turning against each others in a non-sense economic war.

Weakening all federal agencies meant to bring stability in society. Trump spreading bluntly the propaganda from the Kremlin.

Putin couldn't have written a better scenario to get rid of his main opposition.

It's quite clear that Trump is just a puppet, but there's nothing new here. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/15/kremlin-papers...



If Trump was taking direct orders from Putin, what would he be doing differently?


Congress can easily fund USAID if they have the votes.


[flagged]



> Is interfering in bangladeshi elections “soft power?”

Don't act like then entire purpose of USAID and the entire definition of soft power is whatever 0.08% of one year's budget you've been told to hate today. Distributing HIV medication is soft power. Sending food aid is soft power (and good farm policy). Supporting democratic elections is soft power. If it's unarmed and promoting American interests and values it's soft power.



There are some things Washington should avoid doing even if it promotes American interests.


> Don't act like then entire purpose of USAID and the entire definition of soft power is whatever 0.08% of one year's budget you've been told to hate today.... Supporting democratic elections is soft power.

Don't talk down to me--I grew up around USAID and almost certainly know more about it than you. Nearly all our family friends are USAID or World Bank people. Virtually all of the people talking about USAID didn't know shit about it until it became another vector to play out their impotent rage at Trump.

Interfering in other countries' politics undermines American soft power and the mission of USAID. All the things you and I both like--vaccinations for kids, maternal health, etc.--require working with governments to executive effectively.

Interfering with domestic political affairs completely negates that. Governments will not trust a putative AID organization that is also bankrolling activist organizations in their countries. And approximately zero people in Asia/Africa/the Middle East have uniformly negative feelings about the U.S. meddling in their internal politics.



Fair, I was a bit ungenerous. So you believe - what? USAID shouldn’t engage in politics, and agree enough with a recent viral tweet to use it as your example, and to insinuate that anyone talking about USAID is just acting out their TDS. But also that USAID _should_ be doing the humanitarian work that comprised the overwhelming majority of its efforts and is quite literally being decimated. And that no benefit should accrue to the US? Or none in the form of a more aligned government or political system than history has allowed to take root?


You keep spreading the same lie I debunked last time. Please stop.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43168538



You didn’t “debunk” anything. You have no understanding of the history of State Department involvement in that region over decades, and are just reflexively assuming Elon is lying.


Trump and Musk are lying about that grant.

Show me proof of their claims that entire $29 million grant went to to that agency was spent on work in Bangledashi elections as Musk/DOGE claimed, despite no federal contract indicating that.

Show me the proof that DOGE "saved" that money after the contract was almost done and money was almost entirely granted.

Show me the proof that it went to an agency of two people as Trump claimed.

You can't show me proof of any of those things because they are lying.

You either ignorantly or willfully continue to repeat that lie, likely for partisan reasons.



The grant is documented here: https://www.highergov.com/grant/AID388A1700003/

Bangladeshi officials confirmed, moreover, that USAID bypassed official government channels in providing that money: https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/south-asia/usaid-b...

There is no legitimate reason for the U.S. to be supporting political organizations of any sort in another country, bypassing official government channels.

It’s not a partisan point at all. My family came to America from Bangladesh because of USAID. I have every reason to hope the money was really going for childhood nutrition or vaccines or a legitimate expenditure like that.



How is it not in American interest to stop wasting money on a proxy war? Yes, Russia should not have invaded Ukraine, but they did and they have basically won.

If news reports are at all accurate, our military isn't as great as we think (our of resources to send to Ukraine, poor ability to resupply quickly) it is and the theater of war has changed to be more drone focused than ever before.

Why have there been next to no peace talks since the beginning of the war? How much more money will we spend on another quagmire of intervention? There are plenty of issues here at home that need more attention and money than this proxy war. Like our unsustainable debt.



Actually it has been compromised by Israel, by AIPAC, acting against American interests, creating negative sentiments against Americans across the Middle East and even globally just to support a messianic far right government in Israel.


Sure, but what are you going to do about that? (edit: formatting)


So I know this is not a popular opinion on this site but the only solution being offered by the other side seems to be the meat grinder approach. Basically continue letting both sides throw their men and (and also US taxpayer) money into the conflict until one side gives up or runs out of men.

I am fundamentally anti-war. We can and should compromise on this. There’s a reason the neocons are aligned with the left on it. The military industrial complex is profiting massively, big banks are securing massive land grants to help “rebuild”, and meanwhile both countries are depopulating themselves.

What happened to the left that used to be anti-war?



What compromise do you suggest? So far what trump has been offering is "give us a bunch of stuff and get nothing in return".

Compromise would be a peace deal that actually guarantees Ukraine's future safety (e.g. NATO membership or nuclear weapons) without further compromising their sovereignty (forcing them to give up more territory or recognize Russian territorial claims).

We don't have the ability to compel Ukraine to take a bad deal, and if we did it would be wrong to.



Any compromise at all which brings the meat grinder to an end. We basically have a WW1 situation where both sides are grinding themselves down and the only thing the left can bring themselves to support is continuing the conflict.

Just think for a sec, you are on the same side as Dick Cheney. This is a good hint that you MIGHT not be on the good guys team as much as you think you are.



The position "any compromise that ends the war is acceptable" is a nonsensical idea that gives agressors the ability to take any territory they want from weaker nations. Invade weaker nation, take some land, then force them to surrender to 'save lives'. Do you not see where this absolutist idea leads?

If the only thing that matters is saving lives, you can have whatever you want by taking lives. The end result is that people who are willing to kill for profit win.

If you don't want the world to be ruled by people willing to kill for profit, you have to take action to make that behavior unprofitable.



My good friends, for the second time in our history, a British Prime Minister has returned from Germany bringing peace with honour. I believe it is peace for our time. We thank you from the bottom of our hearts. Go home and get a nice quiet sleep.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_for_our_time

We did appeasement in 2014 with the invasion of Crimea. Totally solved the problem didn't it. Just like Chamberlain prevented the meat grinder of WWII.



> Just think for a sec, you are on the same side as Dick Cheney.

Just think for a sec, if AOC and Dick Cheney can agree "person X is horrible", there's a good chance that person is horrible.



> Just think for a sec, you are on the same side as Dick Cheney.

That's a fallacy.

It might be true if Dick Cheney said or did something controversial that everybody disagrees with, like initiate a completely unnecessary war with Iraq. But in this case, everybody across the political spectrum who understands the situation and its context, agrees that it is vital to defend Ukraine.

Answer me this: do you think that in WW2, everybody should just have surrendered to Germany and Japan in order to bring the war to a quick end? Would that have been better than 5 years of destruction?



I don’t think it’s a fallacy at all. Being on the same team as a famous warmonger when it comes to choosing whether or not to continue funding an endless war is a decent HINT. It should make you take a step back and really examine all the evidence about whether you’re actually on the right side of history (you’re probably not).

This conflict is much more analogous to WW1 instead of WW2. In that conflict both sides basically came to standstill, lines were drawn in the dirt and millions on lives were lost for literally no reason. If the leaders of the countries involved had been able to recognize that years of slaughter had bought them nothing and negotiate a peaceful compromise then so many lives could have been saved. PLUS that likely would have prevented WW2 from even happening.

This is also a proxy war between the US and Russia, Ukraine would have been conquered immediately by Russia without US aid. We have the ability to force a peace and we should be trying to do so not only because we’re spending a lot of money on it but because we are perpetuating a horrific slaughter of millions of people.



No, it's still a fallacy.

Sure, taking a step back and examining the evidence is always a good idea, but the evidence is pretty damn clear here.

> This conflict is much more analogous to WW1 instead of WW2.

Only tactically. Both WW2 and this war were initiated by a single aggressor starting multiple wars in a row. WW1 by contrast had lots of countries equally itching for a fight, even countries that had nothing to do with the initial trigger. And assassination in Sarajevo should not logically lead to endless trench warfare in Flanders. But in Russia's invasion, everybody else is really careful to keep the fighting contained to just Ukraine.



How do you stop the Russians continuing a one sided murder campaign after the surrender?


Give them whatever they want, again, I suppose! That's the only conclusion possible from a policy of "any compromise to end the killing".


Bingo. The only way to stop Russia killing people is for them to lose the war.


I'm not sure ad hominem is as convincing as you think it is. "Any compromise at all" is a very easy thing to say when it isn't your blood in the streets.


Ad hominem: “Attacking a person's character or motivations rather than a position or argument.”

I said aligning yourself with a famous war monger is a good hint that you may not be a good guy and that it is a good reason for reflection. I did not attack OP’s character or motivations.

>very easy thing to say when it isn't your blood in the streets.

Likewise it is even more easy to be cavalier about continuing to fund a war and depopulating entire nations when you’re not the one being conscripted to fight and die.

It’s easy to be a war monger when you’re not the one doing the dying.



This also puts you on the same side as Neville Chamberlain, so.

There are a lot of bad people who espoused war in the past. There are also a lot of bad people who ran from war and appeased the Hitlers of the world, although many of their names did not survive because they weren't around afterward to write the histories.

We tried doing literally nothing when Russia invaded Georgia, and we tried doing basically nothing when Russia invaded Crimea in 2014. How did that work out? He invaded another god damned country. He really thought it was going to be a three-day operation; he thought he was going to be welcomed in Kiev. Should we have done nothing, forever?



Star Trek DS9 episode 6x05

“What could be better? An ally and an enemy both telling him the same thing; he'll have no other choice but to agree!”

If both Dick Cheney and Bernie Sanders are allied against someone, they’re probably bad news.

I appreciate I’m oversimplifying and ignoring the realpolitik, but the fastest way to end the war is to mercilessly crush the aggressor state that invaded and annexed a sovereign nation twice. The mistake of both the US and the EU was to be far, far too timid in their responses to an obvious existential threat.



> Any compromise at all which brings the meat grinder to an end.

Which would entail trusting the US and Russia.

Under Trump the US signed a trade deal with MX and CA and is now going after them. So why trust Trump?

And why would you trust Russia when their goal is to wipe UA from the map?



Russia broke the last ceasefire. Another ceasefire without material guarantees of security for Ukraine is pointless for Ukraine to sign, as there's no reason to believe it'll "bring the meat grinder to an end".

Which is exactly what Zelenskyy was trying to say, when they kept shouting over him. And what at least one reporter asked about, which question Trump then dodged.



Although I agree that Trump's desire to end the war without any Russian concessions is foolhardy, Russia will not tolerate NATO membership or nuclear weapons on its borders. Recall that this conflict's roots began when we reneged on our promise to freeze NATO's borders in the late 90s after the Soviet Union's collapse. None other than George Kennan, the Russian-speaking architect of Cold War containment, wrote an op-ed about it then...

https://www.nytimes.com/1997/02/05/opinion/a-fateful-error.h... https://archive.ph/7qYtE



>Russia will not tolerate NATO membership or nuclear weapons for Ukraine.

Neither of which was a real concern before Russia invaded Ukraine.

>Recall that this conflict's roots began when we reneged on our promise to freeze NATO's borders in the late 90s after the Soviet Union's collapse.

There was no such promise. There was a quick comment in a meeting, which was quickly retracted seconds later in that same meeting, not turned into any official agreement, and by the way that was before the USSR had collapsed and not after. So the non-promise was made to an entity which also no longer existed.

Also, like, what exactly do you think would have happened to Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, etc. if they were not in NATO.



Fair enough: promise is too strong a word. But hints to that effect were given during diplomacy to ensure German reunification...

https://archive.ph/hyDhA

My point is that Russia taking Crimea and invading Ukraine are a consequence of NATO expansion to Russia's borders. The Baltic republics joined in 2004, while Ukraine and Georgia's "aspirant" status was declared in 2002 and 2004...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_NATO#Aspiring...

And recall that Putin took Crimea in 2014 right after the pro-Russian Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych was ousted...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_Dignity

To say Russia's aggression was entirely unprovoked represents an ignorance of recent history.



You make a good point. The EU/NATO expansion was deliberately intended to hem Russia in, and Russia's actions are at least partly in response to that.

However, there's a big difference between expanding your sphere of influence through "soft power" whereby those countries voluntarily join you, and expanding it through military invasion, as Russia is doing.

The two are not at all comparable.



Appreciate the props, I was starting to question my rhetorical chops. ;)

Regarding the distinction between soft and hard power, however, I think both Machiavelli and Sun Tzu would disagree:

"Necessary wars are just wars, and the arms of a nation are hallowed when it has no other resource but to fight."

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/1232/1232-h/1232-h.htm

"Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting."

https://classics.mit.edu/Tzu/artwar.html

The almost unescapable conclusion is that the Neocons' soft power forced Putin's hand, perhaps by design.



I don’t agree much with Machiavelli for one, but more importantly he and Sun Tzu lived during a time when war was very common and just happened all the time with little provocation. In the post WW2 world the goal should be to avoid war at all costs and achieve goals by other means.


I'd argue war is as common now as in the times of Machiavelli or Sun Tzu. Even after WW2 and only considering US boots on the ground, how many military conflicts have there been?

There are five major ones:

Korean War (1950-1953) Vietnam War (1955-1975) Persian Gulf War (1990-1991) War in Afghanistan (2001-2021) Iraq War (2003-2011)

If you count proxy wars, it wouldn't be such a stretch to say we've been fighting almost continuously since we dropped the bomb.



This is all total sophistry.

Realists try to wrap Putin's decisionmaking in layers of geopolitical reasoning, when the dude literally compares himself to Peter the Great and uses 17th century maps to claim that Ukraine is an illegitimate nation. This is bog-standard nationalist stuff.

Tucker Carlson literally sat down with Putin and did everything he could to tee up this nonsense about NATO that Westerners want to hear and believe was the real reason, and instead Putin dropped 45 minutes worth of nationalist pseudohistory on him that had nothing to do with NATO. Nobody in Russia pretends the war is about NATO. It's just not really part of their narrative at all.

In summary: https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/1amqoq9...



Please clarify how NATO encroachment is non-threatening to a Russian nationalism that sees the Russian Empire at its height as a golden age.

And I would appreciate backing evidence beyond Office memes.



Please explain how a Russian nationalism that sees the Russian Empire at its height as a golden age is not a legitimate threat to all of Europe but especially Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Finland, and Ukraine, such that NATO expansion is fully legitimated.

You can't blame NATO expansion for Russian aggression (and call it "threatening") while at the same time literally admitting that Russia is strongly nationalist and would love to reclaim all of its former territories (which is why all of those countries desperately wanted to join NATO).

Fuck dude, Russia is the largest country on earth (see: expansionism) and has the first or second largest stockpile of nuclear weapons. They have no right to feel "threatened" by their smaller neighbors banding together.



Europe is as much Russia’s historical sphere of influence as the western hemisphere is ours. From the time of the Monroe Doctrine to the Cuban missle crisis and beyond, we have not tolerated any foreign incursion in North or South America—even to the point of removing democratically-elected socialists and installing pro-US dictators such as Chile’s Salvador Allende and Augusto Pinochet. Don’t be fooled by our own propaganda.

Seen in that light, a US strategy of overt and steady NATO encroachment combined with covert action to foment rebellion in multiple ex-Soviet states isn’t far fetched. And even if we didn’t secretly fund the latter, a paranoid Putin certainly wouldn’t doubt it and would react accordingly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colour_revolution



The attempt to rewrite history into "foreign encroachment" is either utterly ignorant of the actual facts, or just bad faith trolling.

The reasons why Eastern Europe was very passionate about joining NATO are clear from their history. And getting accepted into the organization was a major and very widely documented struggle. The Polish government went as far as threatening to sink Bill Clinton's re-election campaign in 1996 by urging Polish-Americans to vote for Republicans unless Clinton agreed to admitting Poland into NATO.

Now, people like you are trying to depict this as some sort of grand anti-Russian masterplan laid out in Washington. Nobody, not even Russians from that era, support this fringe story.



“You are entitled to your opinion. But you are not entitled to your own facts.”

― Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Here are the facts of NATO encroachment from the fall of the Berlin wall to the annexation of Crimea:

1. Feb 1990: The US, through West German chancellor Helmut Kohl, hints at freezing NATO’s borders in order to secure German reunification.

"Kohl thus found himself in a complicated position as he prepared to meet with Gorbachev on February 10, 1990. He had received two letters, one on either end of his flight from West Germany to the Soviet Union, the first from Bush and the second from Baker, and the two contained different wording on the same issue. Bush’s letter suggested that NATO’s border would begin moving eastward; Baker’s suggested that it would not.

According to records from Kohl’s office, the chancellor chose to echo Baker, not Bush, since Baker’s softer line was more likely to produce the results that Kohl wanted: permission from Moscow to start reunifying Germany.”

https://archive.ph/hyDhA

Outcome: the former Warsaw-Pact East Germany joins NATO as part of unified Germany.

2. Partnership for Peace membership (NATO program for creating trust and cooperation between member states and other states mostly in Europe)

Ukraine Feb 8, 1994

Georgia Mar 23, 1994

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partnership_for_Peace#Member...

3. Official NATO expansion

Poland Mar 12, 1999

Estonia Mar 29, 2004

Latvia “

Lithuania "

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_NATO#Aspiring...

Outcome: NATO is now on Russia's borders on multiple flanks.

4. Feb/Mar 2014: Putin takes Crimea right after the pro-Russian Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych is ousted.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Crimea_by_the_...

---

European motivations for joining NATO are obvious and beyond debate: what formerly war-torn nation wouldn't want shelter under our nuclear umbrella?

But while whether or not gradual, but deliberate NATO encroachment was a Neocon stratagem may be debatable to you and me, I doubt Putin, a paranoid autocrat who considers the fall of the USSR one of history's great calamaties, looking at these facts, would have the least question whatsoever.



And here are three different generations of Soviet and Russian high officials directly refuting your narrative: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43149963


Perhaps I was mistaken in thinking this was obvious, but... their opinion is utterly irrelevant; only one person's opinion matters here and that's Putin's.


Exactly my point: this is the story that the current dictator is spinning to justify his crimes.

It's also funny how Putin now lies about how invading Ukraine is all about NATO, when in the first few years of the war, Russia denied any involvement and claimed that the tens of thousands of unmarked soldiers with Russian tanks, artillery and anti-air systems capable of shooting down high-altitude airliners were just disgruntled secessionist Ukrainians fighting against nazis in Kyiv with weapons from military surplus stores. According to Putin, it was a civil war in Ukraine, and Russia had nothing to do with it.



  Please clarify how NATO encroachment is non-threatening to a Russian nationalism that sees the Russian Empire at its height as a golden age.
That's exactly the point: almost all of Eastern Europe rushed into NATO to prevent becoming unwilling participants in another "golden age of the Russian empire". NATO is a massive pain in the ass for those who dream of enslaving the peoples of Europe, and not a problem at all for those who are free from this sick desire.

One of the pre-Putin foreign ministers of Russia has maintained for decades that NATO offers free security on Russia's western border. Its rules, especially those related to civilian oversight of military affairs, ensure that NATO members remain stable and predictable. The mutual defense guarantee acts as a moderating force that reduces the likelihood of unexpected moves by a single country. What normal country wouldn't want to border a military alliance dominated by overly cautious pacifists?



Sure, the mutual-defense guarantee can be a moderating force, or it can be a ticket to rapid escalation (case in point WW1) and, potentially therefore, nuclear war.

The fact that the Cold War ended peacefully, and with the USSR‘s dissolution to boot, is one of history’s great miracles. With the world’s return to its default multi-polar state, we really shouldn’t press our luck.

Give Russia and China their spheres of influence while we protect our own. The tail risk of nuclear war just isn’t worth whatever gains Neocons promise. After all, how did their Iraqi and Afghan experiments in democracy turn out?



Russia already has its sphere of influence, but it is rapidly shrinking because aligning with Russia offers neither peace nor prosperity nor anything else of value. Politically, economically, scientifically, and culturally, it is a dead end. Russia is not the first country to slip into irrelevance and struggle to accept the loss of its influence, and no amount of temper tantrums has ever changed that for anyone.

The UK, France, Belgium, Portugal, Spain, Italy, Turkey, Mongolia, and many others were vast empires at some point in history. They have all had to adopt a self-image that reflects their true political, cultural, and economic weight in the present world. Russian ambitions are too detached from reality, given that they account for only a percentage or two of global GDP and population, and are in a downward trend.



I don't disagree about Russia's prospects. China, too, is facing a demographic collapse it will take generations to mend. But the nuclear arsenal of both countries makes this irrelevant for policy now.


The only reason for them to not accept NATO membership of a neighbor is if they're planning to invade that neighbor.

Russia's desire to not have NATO neighbors rather makes the point of why there can be no peace between Ukraine and Russia - Ukraine understands that without real guarantees of security, any 'peace' with Russia is a farce that only lets them prepare for the next invasion, except this one will start closer to home and be better planned.



Russia already had, and even created more NATO membership on its borders(Finland just recently). That excuse is clearly false.


What relevance does Ukraine joining NATO, a defensive alliance, have to Russia? (Unless they are planning to attack again, which would mean the "peace deal" isn't actually worth the paper it's signed on, and is just a way for Russia to regroup for their next invasion.)


Whether you call it "defensive" or not, NATO—and the arms race it and the Warsaw Pact fostered—directly led to the Soviet Union's collapse. Recall that JFK almost started WW3 when the Soviets sent nukes to Cuba. NATO on Russia's borders isn't all that different to them.


Except there is no reason for a compromise. Russia invaded Ukraine, they're free to withdraw any time they like. I wonder how anti-war you'd be if another country decided half of yours suddenly belonged to them.


I certainly wouldn't expect another random country halfway around the world to foot the bill for my country.


Countries all over the world should want to help stop an aggressor before it expands and becomes powerful enough to attack them. It's a no brainer, and you have plenty of examples throughout history.

As things stand now, 5 years from now USA could become overrun with russian mobs and oligarch running rampant, and EU faces the real possibility of another continental conflict. I don't think many people around the world are going to enjoy that scenario.



There is absolutely a reason for compromise. Ukraine should be opposed to depopulating itself.

The current situation is very similar to the trench warfare of WW1. Despite there being a clear initiator of WW1, BOTH sides absolutely had a huge reason to compromise. Over 8 million lives were lost, the reason to compromise was saving those 8 million lives.



> Ukraine should be opposed to depopulating itself.

And they are. They want the people back that Russia abducted, and the people who still live in the occupied territories. They can't bring back the dead obviously, but they can fight for the living. And for the future.

To understand Ukraine's will to fight, you need to understand that they have lived under Moscow's yoke for generations. Their grandparents lived through the Holodomor, their parents lived under Soviet oppression. The current generation has known 30 years of freedom. And now they're faced with the possibility of their children living under Moscow rule again.

This is why they fight so hard.



I empathize with your opinion Dig1t. War is horrible and meat grinders are especially so.

But when a victimized population like Ukraine decides it wants to keep fighting. Especially given:

> Ukraine should be opposed to depopulating itself.

Then you gotta ask yourself:

Given they would rather die than suffer the consequences of a compromise.

Then maybe they know something about the consequences of that compromise that you and I can’t? and if so, maybe we should continue trusting the victims to not compromise ?



There was never a compromise in WW1, Germany collapsed.


This is just an argument for letting powerful countries take over weaker ones, because resistance would result in suffering.


You cannot compromise with an aggressor, it encourages them to be more aggressive. Being anti-war to the point of allowing allies to be overrun by totalitarians is just foolishness, and a great way to create more war.


My understanding is that Ukraine gave up their nuclear arsenal in exchange for an agreement Wirth Russia to not be invaded? If that is the case and Russia invaded anyway, then what kind of compromise can you have with a country that breaks any agreement they sign?

I doubt many people want war, I know I don't. But once you have a warring nation going rouge, there aren't many options left on the table.



Which is just one of many, many broken agreements.


> What happened to the left that used to be anti-war?

I am extremely anti-war, but capitulating to Russia and rewarding them for invading a neighbor would guarantee more war and killing, not less.



It’s bizarre that anyone would try to spin opposition to war for war’s sake as some kind of obligation to never fight regardless of the provocation or context.

Yes, yes, I am opposed to punching random people on the street. It is bad manners. That does not mean I have to stand by and watch someone else get attacked for no reason.



For fucking real, I was against invading Iraq (again...) for reasons pretty similar to why I'm against letting Russia take Ukraine.


Left - at least the moderate left in italy, I don't know what kind of American left you're talking about - is anti war in an anti _offensive_ war sense, not against a defensive war or against defending another more or less allied country from being invaded by another country

I am not sure of course, but I guess the same would be true of other similar center left parties in europe



If Russia was allowed to annex Ukraine with no military resistance... would this not certainly encourage more invasions/annexations in the future between various countries? Would this not result in more violence in the long run?


In fact, Russia's successful invasion of Georgia in 2008 - during which the West basically just said "omg plz don't" - did exactly that.


Excellent point.


>We can and should compromise on this.

With an insane 50% mineral rights demand by the USA in particular which should not be on the table in a deal between Ukraine and Russia?

I'm not sure how you can post what you've posted with a straight face.



I think traditionally anti war meant being opposed to aggression, for example the United States invasion of Iraq to maintain oil interests.

Ukraine is a western country invaded by an enemy of the west. You can still be anti violence but it’s a different situation.



Einstein was famously a pacifist, opposed to the concept of war. Many leftists used to be aligned with this as well.

We are funding a meat grinder that has no sign of victory for either side anywhere in sight. This has been going on for years now. Long enough where we need to consider a diplomatic compromise, we can’t just keep pumping money into another country waiting for enough men to die, it is fundamentally evil.

I know people feel that they are morally justified in funding the conflict forever because Russia is the aggressor. But at a certain point it becomes evil not to seek an end to the killing. Have you watched videos of the horrific things that are happening over there with drone warfare? How can you watch that and say “it’s okay to let this go on forever because technically Russia is the invader”?



> Einstein was famously a pacifist, opposed to the concept of war.

And then his mind changed when confronted with WWII. “I am a pacifist in principle, but I am not an absolute pacifist.”

>“it’s okay to let this go on forever because technically Russia is the invader”?

There is no "technically". Russia is the invader. Russia can leave at any time and there will be peace very quickly.



Pacifism is good insofar as one should avoid starting wars. What you are arguing for is prostration, reflexive submission to any non-pacifist actor. All your posts in this thread are bemoaning the horrors of war and comparing it to a meatgrinder, but all saying that the solution is for Ukraine to capitulate. What consequences should befall Russia?


Einstein was pro-nuke!

Certainly applying the Einstein solution of a spread of nukes would end the war, very quickly.



he called his initial support 'the one great mistake of my life' - and spent the rest of it campaigning for disarmament


He was only pro-nuke through fear that Hitler would get them first. After the war, he was as anti-nuke as Oppenheimer and the rest.


Victory for Ukraine is surviving to the next day. Do you really think funding them is "fundamentally evil"? They don't have a choice about fighting. If they lose, Ukraine will be brutally "Russified". Their language and culture will be banned. Their poets and patriots killed. Their children will be brainwashed and turned into loyal soldiers for Putin's next war of conquest.

Nobody likes war, but letting your country be subjugated by an evil dictator is worse.



Russia is not acting in good faith, so a compromise doesn't help. If both parties had legitimate grievances and acted in good faith, they could come to a peaceful lasting compromise. But instead, one nation aggressively invaded another with constantly shifting narratives for the reason why.


Those of us truly anti-war realize that allowing Ukraine to be punished/Ukrainians to be kidnapped for giving up their nuclear weapons will only lead to future wars and future nuclear proliferation, not less war..


Unfortunately, if we do not want to have a direct conflict with Russia, the next best thing is giving Ukraine massive amounts of weapons, arms, etc., and enabling them to retake their country.

Any alternative that allows Russian gains will only further cement the idea that wars of aggression can be worthwhile in the modern world, and this is the most horrendous conclusion possible for anyone actually anti-war.



> and enabling them to retake their country.

The West has provided hundreds of billions of dollars in weapons and money, yet the Ukranians have made near-zero progress. They are incapable of retaking their country without direct intervention from NATO, which is not an option.



Then you give them more and more weapons forever until it's like Korea rather than give in.


I think you're saying that not because you're anti-war, but because you're OK with Ukraine losing.


Please don't cross into personal attack.

Everyone here needs to make an extra effort to assume good faith, as the site guidelines ask: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. Otherwise we're just going to get in a downward spiral.

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...



Trump is calling for peace and a ceasefire agreement.

Zelensky won't agree?



Trump is demanding a conditional surrender of Ukraine according to every Russian demand and calling it a peace deal.

You should know that.



Trump offered a mineral deal that secure Ukrainian minerals for the US while offering absolutely nothing in return. He did so from a position of power since Ukrainian lives depend on continuing military aid to defend against an illegal war of aggression with the goal of exterminating his country. Unless he's identical to Putin Trump isn't even in a position to offer peace.

You cannot possibly imagine how disgusted people are by Trump and by statements like yours. It's just disgusting.



Please don't cross into name-calling or attacking other users on HN. Your comment doesn't need those last bits.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html



It absolutely offers something in return. It gives the US interests in Ukraine and in maintaining the status quo so we can access those minerals. Putin wants them for himself. This is a clever way to push back at Putin while also compromising on having NATO at Russia's doorstep. It also compensates the US for its generous spending on Ukraine's plight. NATO is over anyway because European countries cannot or will not contribute their share and frankly the US isn't threatened by Russia in the same way it was during the Cold War. I much prefer a bi or tri polar world to the Cold War.


You've just confirmed with a meandering, misleading paraphrase the same as what I've stated in the first place, that the US has offered nothing in return.


Well said. I completely agree.


How is my statement "disgusting"?

I am anti-war. I truly want peace.



> I am anti-war. I truly want peace.

Then you should know a temporary pause in the fighting while Russian remains in Ukraine is not peace.



The ones wishing for peace most are the Ukrainians.

However the Ukrainians also want a country where they can live in peace. Not under Russian occupation, not in fear of Russia breaking the agreement, again. (After agreeing to Ukrainian souveranity while Ukraine gave up their Nukes, after agreeing to the Minsk Memorandum after occupying Crimea)



I'm with you. And we seem to be in the minority here. Setting Ukraine aside for the moment, what have the many US military conflicts—they were not "wars" because the last one Congress declared was during WW2—since WW2 achieved?

Excluding proxy wars for simplicity's sake and only counting those where we had boots on the ground, from our engagements in Korea to Afghanistan, how has the world become a better place?

Besides (arguably) Korea, it seems our blood and treasure could've been better spent.



> I am anti-war. I truly want peace.

That's cool. Go convince the aggressor to stand down and never attack anyone again so there can be peace.



will you fight while being raped? will you fight from enslavement? No? You want peace? - Most free people will fight back and kill.


You want a peace by Ukraine's capitulation, which would involve Ukraine handing over millions of Ukrainian citizens to Russia. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that haven't really thought this through but it's nevertheless disgusting, particularly the bullying of a foreign dignitary in the White House was disgusting and unprecedented in diplomacy.

Sorry I don't have any other word for it. It's disgusting behavior.



Genuine question: what is the solution?

The United States has given Ukraine billions. That hasn't seemed to resolved the issue?



The only people who should be in charge of deciding when it's time to stop fighting are the Ukrainian people and their elected leaders. That's how democracy works. You should continue to support Ukraine with weapons together with the numerous allies you have, seek further alliance continue to pressure Russia with sanctions and isolation. Russian embassies should be closed, by the way.

Why? Because it's the morally right thing to do. It's as simple as that.



>That's how democracy works.

The Ukrainian leadership has suspended all elections. Polling indicates that Zelensky would almost certainly lose an election if one were held.

If you really care about the principles of democracy wouldn't you be in support of giving the people of Ukraine the chance to vote for leaders that would seek to end the war?

Also speaking of democracy, Trump campaigned on ending the Ukraine war and he solidly won the election, including the house, senate, and popular vote. Using diplomatic means to bring an end to the killing and an end to sending our taxpayer dollars to fund foreign wars is absolutely what the American people voted for.



The Ukrainian constitution prescribes that elections cannot be held during a war. One obvious reason is also that 20% of Ukraine are occupied and it's not possible to hold elections there. Similar decisions to postpone elections were made by other countries in distress, such as the United Kingdom during World War 2.

Zelensky has even offered to step down as a president in exchange for tangible security guarantees for his country, yet you people continue to parrot Russian propaganda. It's absolute insanity how brainwashed people are by this cheap Russian propaganda. Think before you write!



The primary thing which the US has given Ukraine is weapons designed and built during the Cold War for the explicit purpose of defending Europe against a Russian invasion.


> Genuine question: what is the solution?

Arm Ukraine until Russia leaves.



As if the Ukrainians had a choice about fighting. If Russia gives up, the war ends. If Ukraine gives up, Ukraine ends.


How can you compromise with an invader looking to occupy your country?


Canada wonders this too.

Perhaps the playbook is:

* Russia takes part of Northern Canada (oil and lots of it, Northern passage aka the new Panama Canal)

* Canada fights, but Russia remains

* US says "If you were the 51st state, we could protect you"

US gets Canada, Russia the Ukraine, neither side objects.



What are you talking about?


Trump's dream, conquering Canada.


Serious people don't entertain the fever dreams of idiots.


When the President of the most powerful nation on Earth, repeatedly says:

* Canada should be annexed

* I'll use my powers to crush Canada's economy so they are forced to join the US

* I'll use my powers to disrupt trade, and influence others to not trade with Canada

* I want to conquer and take over other "things" as well (Panama Canal, Greenland)

And:

* Makes up stories about there being issues with immigrants and fentanyl from Canada, to put aside trade agreements using powers assigned for emergency use, by Congress, in 1977

* Executes orders about tariffs, inline with the above threats

* Makes up wild, unfounded numbers about trade deficits

* Other members of the the US government says "He's going to make you the 51st state" and "he's entirely serious"

* General discussion among many members of his party saying "We should annex Canada"

And when:

* That same president spreads false information, at one point claiming the Ukraine "started the war"

* Decides to give up the Ukraine to a country run by a dictator

* Tries to undermine other countries from helping the Ukraine

* Thinks Russia is an ally, and everything will be just fine via appeasement

Then I don't care what other Americans think, or say. I care that someone with immense power, and the capability to do these things, says he will. I care what the ruling party has said the goal is.

You speak of "serious people". Only a very unserious person would ignore all of the above. With respect, when you threaten a people with loss of their entire country, telling them they shouldn't take it serious is absolutely absurd.

Nothing else but what has been said is important. No excuses for "he won't do it". No "don't worry about it" is reasonable.

In the last couple of months, the US has entirely destroyed its relationship with Canada. It will literally take half a century to recover it, if ever.

You don't play with another nations security and autonomy. You don't joke about taking someone's country over.

And like it or not?

Your president is your face to the world, and he's doing these things, and there are sadly repercussions of all of us.



Yes, Trump is a gift to any cynical person trying to "both sides" Russia's war against Ukraine or China's extensive plans to invade Taiwan by saying "look, the U.S. threatens their neighbors too!"

The fact is, none of this talk has resulted in real steps towards action. And if you take seriously everything Trump says, you can draw any number of conclusions that aren't based in reality.



You're ignoring what I said, it's not just Trump talking.

And I reiterate, when it comes to the loss of nationhood, the requirement to go to war if that happens, Canadians cannot simply ignore direct threats.

Frankly, your words seem quite offensive to me. You're simply telling all 40 million of us to just ignore a threat to our very existence, because, oh well, who cares, it's obviously just noise.

Meanwhile as I said, it's not just Trump, but his party, cabinet, and others saying the goal is real.

How can I take you seriously, when you ignore that it's not just Trump?

That it's at least millions of Americans repeating and agreeing with these things?

You don't underestimate words with such dire consequences. Ever.



> it's not just Trump talking.

Yes it is. Where is the U.S. military mobilization to the northern border? Or against Panama or Greenland for that matter. You can't just invade a country, you need years of expensive logistical operations to move your troops and supply lines into place (the way Russia did before Ukraine and increasingly what China is doing against Taiwan).

So if we are to take Trump seriously, where is any evidence he is doing anything besides issuing wild threats for leverage in later trade talks?

> You don't underestimate words with such dire consequences.

Trump is dismantling the post world war 2 American led global order. I am taking this very seriously, I just don't tolerate people using Trump's statements as confirmation bias of their "The U.S. is just as bad" both side-isms. Or just downright celebrating the fall of the U.S. because they think a world where China and Russia do whatever they want is somehow better.

Global conflicts and wars of conquest by authoritarian states used to be normal, if we are returning to that era, we are all worse off.



Yes it is.

As I mentioned, it isn't. Do reply to my assertions if you wish. I'd be happy to respond to that.



> You're ignoring what I said

Is this just a game of copycat? You are asserting the US is actually planning a war against Canada, now is the time to cite your sources and proof of that claim.

Or take this game somewhere else.



The two of you both broke the site guidelines super badly in this thread. Not cool.

Please don't post in the flamewar style to HN, and please avoid tit-for-tat spats in the future. I know how hard it is to extricate oneself, but the only worthwhile thing to do is just stop.

If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.



"Copycat" makes no sense in any way, and I'm not interested in pushy rhetoric.

All of the things I said here are true:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43218476

Now, do you want to respond to my points, or are you still going to ignore them?



The two of you both broke the site guidelines super badly in this thread. Not cool.

Please don't post in the flamewar style to HN, and please avoid tit-for-tat spats in the future. I know how hard it is to extricate oneself, but the only worthwhile thing to do is just stop.

If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.



You mean like the International Brigades? They are defending their country from an aggressor - they're supposed to roll over?


If Russian soldiers leave then the war ends immediately.


No one wants peace, they want justice. But putting aside all that nonsense, this is a relatively cheap way to fuck with Russia, one of our main geopolitical adversaries. If Ukraine is willing to jump into the meat grinder, let's give Russia the push it needs to join them. Don't give up a winning position for no reason.


I agree that this accurately illustrates usa strategy on ukraine.

of course the reason to stop killing people is to stop killing people.



Ukraine offered an alternative approach. They are willing to compromise on territory - i.e. stop fighting over it, not give up the claim to it. What they want, and they've said it again and again, is a security guarantee for the future to prevent Russia invading again. Either membership of NATO or a specific treaty. This is their one goal beyond coming under the control of Russia during this specific war, not having to worry about being invaded again. If they don't get it then they're likely to start developing a nuclear deterrent (they've already indicated this and they probably have the capability).


Ok. Let's pretend this is what is done. Russia gets to keep all the land it took from Ukraine, at the cost of hundreds of thousands of lives on both sides.

Who's going to stop Russia from re-arming and building up its army only to launch another attack in 2-3 years? Who's going to prevent them from destabilizing Ukraine until it falls?

Russia won't stop until it has destroyed Ukraine, that much is certain. Russia only understands strength, and they won't stop until stopped by force.

But hey, peace is more important right? Maybe they should just take Ukraine, capture, torture, rape and murder all the people they deem as undesirables and convert it to another Russian oblast as it was once before. Then there will be peace.

I would imagine you would also lay down at your own home if someone breaks in and tries to rape and murder your family just for the sake of peace?



> What happened to the left that used to be anti-war?

The left is still anti-war. But most people on the left have paid enough attention to Putin to know that surrendering to him is not going to bring peace.

This war didn't just start in 2022; Putin invaded Ukraine twice in 2014. He invaded Georgia in 2008. And very early on in his career, he completely demolished Chechnya. He's not a peace guy. And all those wars by Putin were rewarded, and so he continues. Now finally, people understand that giving Putin everything he wants is just going to make him want more and attack more.

In Russia, they're already talking about Moldova, Estonia, Lithuania and even Poland. The only way this will end is by stopping Putin.

The left didn't compromise with Hitler either. Surrendering to Hitler didn't bring anyone peace. Peace came only after defeating Hitler. And unfortunately, it's exactly the same with Putin. Except nobody is going to march on Moscow, because Putin has nukes. So the only way to stop him becomes letting him exhaust his country until it collapses. That sounds terrible, but Ukraine is actually willing and eager to be the anvil on which Russia destroys itself. All we need to do is continue to support Ukraine with everything they need and more.

I know it's terrible. You can blame Putin for that. But this may be the only way to put an end to Putin's bottomless aggression.



The (moderate) left was anti-oppression and anti-dictatorship. Sometimes you need to fight for that, but the goal remains a stable, egalitarian and peaceful society.

If your anti-war stance means I can punch you in the face and your reaction is to compromise on "ok but no more punching", your face is going to look very bad very soon.



I don't think you should be down voted for opinions.

The question is how to organize incentives to make anti-war ideal a reality.

As the last 70 odd years have demonstrated, Economic development as a carrot alone seems to have not worked. The stick of MAD unfortunately seems to required.



I mean Russia could leave, pull their troops back in Russia. It's not like the Ukrainians invaded Russia, or have annexed any Russian territory that they want to keep. The Russians were not in fact forced to invade.


It's nice to see a speck of sanity in this thread.

Oh but didn't you know that all that aid money is actually going to America(n weapons manufacturers, who will then lobby us into the next forever war after this one).

If you were wondering how american politicians managed to piss away trillions of dollars in the middle east instead of fixing healthcare or education, building trains, doing anything the least bit useful, this is how. You gin the people up into believing that there's a bad guy somewhere and its our job to make things right, and you're off to the races.

Works every time.



There’s a third solution: Russia could just stop its aggression and leave.


If your country was invaded by your neighbor would you want to fight them or just capitulate?


Why is compromising the anti war stance? Ukraine is not Putin’s end goal, it’s his first step


> Ukraine is not Putin’s end goal, it’s his first step

Technically his second given the invasion of Crimea.



They turned a country that is orders of magnitude more powerful and prosperous into a client state mostly through tweets and facebook slop.

It’s incredible, they’ll be studying it for decades.



At least we know there's no deep state.


> It no longer represents American interests, but Russian interests

Disagree. Trump is in this for himself. If he appears to represent Russian interests that's likely because he has made some kind of deal with Putin that benefits him personally. It has been reported that he has been talking to Putin before he was elected for the second term [1].

[1] https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-putin-ta...



Donald Trump - whose business "got all the funding we need out of Russia"[1] stood up in front of the press and requested the Russian government target his opponent's email... and the Russian government immediately did so.[2] There has been a great deal of circumstantial evidence since, with little to anything to rebut it. This may very well be a quid pro quo rather than naked pro-Russian partisanship, but the practical difference for the United States is negligible.

1. https://thehill.com/homenews/news/332270-eric-trump-in-2014-... 2.https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/russia-hacked-hillar...



If there's any remaining doubt that Trump has an under-the-table deal with Putin consider this: Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth last week ordered U.S. Cyber Command to stand down from all planning against Russia, including offensive digital actions [1].

[1] https://therecord.media/hegseth-orders-cyber-command-stand-d...



There is something going in for sure, but the man knows in his heart that he will be dead soon. Surviving his term at his great age will be impressive.

Old men often don't care about personal help, so look to his kin/family for benefits.



> Old men often don't care about personal help

This is no ordinary old man though. Look at how many times he has mentioned third term as President.



He’s trolling dude, just like he said he was better than George Washington. There’s some kind of duality in US politics where people either take Trump seriously but not literally, or they take him literally and not seriously (the latter leading to all sorts of confusion, though often it’s intentional confusion).


Trolling?

Today Trump and his sidekick verbally attacked a man on TV, who has spent the last 3 years watching his country viciously and maliciously attacked by Russia. He's watched his people die. His friends killed. His country leveled.

And then Trump spews "give up" and "screw you", and the best part is he gets agitated and upset when the Ukraine didn't bend a knee.

This isn't trolling. This is the President causing real world events to happen. This is the President derailing a 3+ year effort by the entire West to stop Russia's aggression. This is a President appeasing a dictator, an expansionist, but apparently when he says and does things he's... trolling?

Come now.



that’s a lot of propaganda for one comment wow



> He’s trolling dude

During election when Trump said outrageous things, a lot of people had the same attitude as you, and downplayed Trump's comments: he's trolling... he is bluffing... it is just a distraction tactic... it is a negotiation tactic... and so on.

Then after he got elected and actually started doing the things he said he would the same people are like... "Trump is delivering exactly what he promised what he would deliver when he started this campaign. This is what the American people voted for!"



wasn’t the context of the comment above about Canada becoming a 51st state? I feel like people just aren’t paying attention



Many old men are delusional.


> Trump is in this for himself. If he appears to represent Russian interests that's likely because he has made some kind of deal with Putin that benefits him personally.

That's usually how one state usually acheives a compromise of another state’s government, by finding the right weak links and making deals with them (the chief of state and/or head of government, and especially the person holding an office which serves simultaneously as both, is pretty much the ideal case for this, though in practice it is often only people a few steps down.)

So, while that description is true, it supports and explains rather than contradicts the claim that Russia has compromised the US government.



Everything he does is related to grift. A Ukraine-American minerals deal will probably have many layers of agencies and private contractors involved. All kinds of side dealings and under the table contracts will be exchanged where the Trump enterprise can skim off everything, like hedge fund fees.

Such a deal has no place in a peace deal where thousands of people have died. Stop the war first.



Trump is probably in it for himself and also helping himself by representing Russian interests. He's no doubt had a lot of money and support from Russia and probably wouldn't even have become president without them.

I think he's hoping for some deal where he / the US / the minerals corporation control half of Ukraine and Putin controls the other half and Zelensky and Ukrainian democracy just get in the way of that.



A somewhat adjacent interpretation is that he doesn't care about democracy. And so why would he care if Ukraine got invaded. He wants to be a king or emperor or whatever. If Putin takes Ukraine the idea of kings being back gets more normalized.


I don’t think Trump has the sophistication to be a Russian agent. The sad truth is just that he’s wannabe dictator who admires Putin as a role model. Russia is as surprised at their luck as anyone else.


It's useful to remember the distinction between an agent and an asset, which isn't under direct control but can be highly profitable to exploit.


"Russian agent" != trusted collaborator. It means they can use you. He's perfectly predictable/controllable using just flattery and greed, which petro terrorist states like Russia can utilize quite generously.


Sure. All I’m saying is that Russia doesn’t need kompromat or some other illicit leverage over Trump. It’s all happening in the open.


That would explain some of his decisions, but why is he 100% pro Russia across the board?


Trump is an open book, he says he wants the killing to stop and to save money, but saving lives is more important. Many people also believe this, and that failed negotiations and bad relations between NATO and Russia lead to this.

It’s not pro-Russian to want a conflict to end, it’s terrible to think that not wanting people to continue to die is considered bad if it happens to include people of a specific nation who have little control over their leadership currently.



Zelensky would really like this war to end (he said so in the meeting), but he also realizes that Putin can't be trusted - give him an inch and he'll take a mile. The kind of "peace" that Trump wants is the "peace in our times" of Chamberlain or the "peace" of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact - the kind of "peace" that ultimately leads to more war.


> Trump is an open book, he says he wants the killing to stop.

Then he should put pressure on Russia to leave Ukraine. Anything short of that guarantees the killing will continue.



All Putin has to do is not try to recreate the soviet union and the spice will flow

Obviously he has a history of doing these prideful things just to remind people he has chips to play.

But if he literally just didnt, there is upside for unprecedented economic development



He's obsessed with the idea that Russia is vulnerable to invasion via Ukraine and eastern Europe, which is why imperial conquest of those areas is a non-negotiable. The question he can't answer is why the hell anyone would want to invade Russia in 2025 the way Napoleon or the Nazis did.

They have nothing of value.



Lots of words spilled in this thread about how the American government is now all of a sudden compromised but almost nothing as the US subserviently sent billions in weapons and aid to Israel to commit genocide for more than a year now. Most Americans are extreme hypocrites with blinders on. This country has been compromised by Israel for far longer, and in a much worse way.


I am starting to believe the theory that Trump was a Russian agent


Your government is certainly compromised but is it Russia? A lobby group for a certain settler colony in the Middle East spent money on 80% of the seats up for election last year, and boasts of its ability to interfere with US elections. Jeffrey Epstein was linked with the intelligence services of that colony and who knows what he had on Trump and other top US politicians.


What happened was incredibly bad diplomacy, but this take is frankly hysterical.

The Trump administration believes cozying up to Russia will draw them away from China. The Trump administration also believes relieving sanctions will cause commodity prices to drop.

And they are willing to throw Ukraine under the bus for those privileges along with some minerals.

This is undeniably good for the American economy, but at a moral price.



As an American I've never been more ashamed of the leadership of my country. And really just ashamed of my country. Ashamed to be an American at this point in history.

Zelensky has shown more bravery than Trump or Vance are even capable of and they decided to ambush and lecture him like that. Absolutely disgusting.



You're more embarrassed by Trump tactlessly trying to end the war in Ukraine than you are about anything in living memory? Is this a serious comment?


> You're more embarrassed by Trump tactlessly trying to end the war in Ukraine

The fastest way to end a war is to lose it. A conditional surrender of Ukraine based on all Russian demands is not peace deal, to state the obvious. It is in fact a guarantee this war will continue, which is what Ukraine is seeking to avoid.



That seemed plausible at one time. But what could Russia have on Trump at this point that would be more than mildly embarrassing? Certainly nothing sexual. Trump had an affair with a stripper while his wife was pregnant, and that didn't bother his base. It now comes out that Trump flew on Epstein's "Lollypop Express", and nobody cares. No leverage there.

On the financial conflict of interest side, Trump and his base treat that as a non-problem.

Somebody shot at Trump and hit his ear, and that didn't change Trump's behavior.

What could Putin do to apply pressure to Trump personally?



Maybe it has something to do with those mishandled classified documents about Russian interference in US elections that turned up at Mar a Lago in 2021.


If I wanted to control Trump I'd silence key members of his domestic opposition, let him get drunk on power, and then threaten to stop doing so. His ego, now inflated, probably can't handle a return trip to the real world.


> But what could Russia have on Trump at this point that would be more than mildly embarrassing?

Perhaps it's more a case of "what did Russia offer Trump?" and the answer probably starts at "work to get you into power to let you loot the coffers".



Trump is a distraction.

If all people here would study Trump, then nobody would have hired him for any job. He fails, and he does that spectacularly. His businesses have floundered time after time, and his ass has been saved many a times (with Russian money too, yeah, years back). Trump's image is completely fake, he is not a great deal maker. He is born rich, at best a con man. But he is valuable.

That begs the question:

  *a) what powers do select the likes of Trump, Greene, Kennedy?* 
  *b) For what?*
I have no horse in this race, but anybody with a clear mind can see those people are mentally impaired.

Re a. There is a small but powerful contingent in the USA elites that do NOT believe in democracy. The movements behind MAGA are part driven by extreme white-nationalist christians, notable Dominions, part driven by old-Nazi elites from the Interbellum and part driven by extreme crypto-/tech-dystopia crazies, that have access to enormous amounts of wealth, intelligence about people (Big tech) and "social" media. America falling into the hands of radical but powerful elites with extreme beliefs and tools was just a matter of time. Articles shared here on Hacker News have been flagged over the years.

Re b. Trump, Kennedy, Greene etc are able to suck up tons of media attention. They will generate a crisis every hour without needing instructions. They are not too smart and powerful, so they will have a room in which they can operate, but they will not be able to control the tools like media themselves. But what they will do is making sure the people will get distracted by the drama of these people, whereas people should be concerned with what is happening with the democratic state. Te state is being replaced according to Plan 2025, from which you have not seen everything.

Do not focus too much on Trump and Elon. They are there pursuing their own interests, they are tolerated for now, but they will be pushed from the board once their work is finished.

America siding with Putin is just a tip of the ice berg of what is to come for America and the world.





> He fails, and he does that spectacularly.

And yet he comes back. The head of intelligence for the Ukrainian military, Kyrylo Budanov, was asked about Trump last year. He commented that Trump has failed and come back nine times. That was a good insight.

Budanov's comment about the current situation is here.[1] He says a cease-fire is possible in the near term, but not peace. That's realistic.

> anybody with a clear mind can see those people are mentally impaired.

One tiny newspaper, the Durango Herald, just came out and said that Trump should be removed via the 25th amendment procedure for a sick president. Bing/MSN captured the beginning of the story, but if you try to follow the link [2], the message is "There has been a critical error on this website." The story is not visible on their site, which is up. I sent them a note asking if they were pressured to pull the story.

[1] https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/ukraines-defence-intell...

[2] https://www.durangoherald.com/articles/its-time-for-the-25th...



Update: I contacted the Durango Herald, which is a tiny weekly in Colorado. They said that item would appear in the next print issue, and went up on the web site too soon.


This is so stupid.


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Well, Russia has been interfering a lot recently. And don't you find it quaint how what Trump does aligns with Russian interests? He has already weakened diplomatic ties to all western countries, killed USAID (who is going to move in to get all that goodwill? China of course). Put doubts in people about the meaning and guarantees of NATO.

And he calls Zelensky a dictator and refuses to call Putin one. Laughable. If there is no russian interference trump is even more clueless than I thought.



So why did Trump invite a so-called dictator to the Oval Office? You are going to have a very long 4 years of Trump if you choose to remain willfully ignorant about what his administration is about or if you place more importance on his negotiation tactics over the results.


Because he was expected to? To get a mineral deal and a ceasefire seemingly without any security guarantees? (Because Putin "is a man of his word")

I never thought I would see the day of a president that was more gullible than Bush with his story about Putin's mother's crucifix.

Edit: and getting support from Orbán is hardly something to be proud of.



Zelensky lost big yesterday. The minerals deal was supposed to solidify a security guarantee from Uncle Sam. He bet on the wrong horse i.e Europe. Ukraine is facing assured destruction now if Zelensky continues on the foolish path of drumming up support for more war against the insurmountable Bear.

I respect Trump a lot more for having the fortitude to push for a peace negotiation, maybe we'll even be talking about a Nobel prize sometime next year.



First of all, Trump has been very reluctant about any security guarantees. I don't think he will give any, regardless of mineral deal or not.

And I agree Zelenskys lost yesterday. I was expecting him to do what Starmer did, just "more". Go there with a smile and eat whatever poop sandwich Trump and Vance served him.

I can understand people that think "good on him for standing up for himself", but he wasn't there to stand up for himself. He was there to security guarantees.

On the other hand I doubt trump and couch-guy had anything else planned. If they had been serious about the intentions this would have been negotiated and done long before any kind of public appearance.



[flagged]



Risking American lives? How many Americans have died in the war as a result of US aid?


You can ask CharGPT what "interests" mean in this context, it can give you a comprehensive explanation connecting these interests to GDP and quality of life of US citizens in the long term. You no longer can play stupid.

FWIW US spent less than 100B in 3 years of war, it's nothing compared to war in Afghanistan and Iraq. And it serves an important function, "every cent counts!" makes no sense here as the goal is to prevent bigger confrontation in the future



CharGPT


>Zelensky implied Russia would invade the U.S. Do you think that’s likely?

He did not. What he did say is, that should Russia start to expand the war to other countries (as is very likely if Ukraine falls), these effects will be felt by the people in the US.

That statement is obviously true. The effects of the Ukraine war could also be felt, as it affected the economy across the globe.



Be concrete. Which countries and what effects? Berlin is less than 1,000 miles from Moscow. Why aren’t they spending 5% of GDP on defense if this is a real threat?


The Baltics, which we have very serious contracts to defend with American lives, including drafting our children if it spirals.


keep those goalposts moving; the soul of a good faith argument here


> We cannot continue spending trillions of dollars and risking American lives based on weasel words like “interests” and “allies.” Say what you really mean.

What he means is whatever Russia is interested in doing, Trump is motivated to agree to given his open, well-documented idolization of Putin and other dictators, making us effective allies. Your attempts to devalue OP's argument like pretending he is being too vague are quite trasparent and do not hold up to scrutiny. Instead, you need to prove why Trump's recent behavior and remarks toward Putin don't establish us as allies with shared interests.



> Say what you mean

You ought to take your own advice, buddy.



[flagged]



>It takes a little more comprehension skills to understand words. I understand if you didn't get that comprehensive education.

I vehemently disagree with rayiner, often, but you personally attacking them only serves to weaken your position.



> I vehemently disagree with rayiner, often, but you personally attacking them only serves to weaken your position.

Glad you see the reality. I don't care about my position but only the reality.



> It takes a little more comprehension skills to understand words. I understand if you didn't get that comprehensive education.

Like the sibling comment says, this is an embarrassing way to cap out an otherwise reasonable comment.



You think Russia is going to nuke America if Ukraine loses the war?


> He said that it could come to American shores - the bite, the cyberwar, the nukes - not necessarily only the army.

> You think Russia is going to nuke America if Ukraine loses the war?

jump right to the most extreme possible claim to pull from the above and _strrrretch_ it -- impeccable form! It's not even a logical fallacy, it's just lying about what the person before you said, presented as though they look foolish for saying it. Smooth, hollow, soulless stuff.



> You think Russia is going to nuke America if Ukraine loses the war?

No. But can it escalate to that via cyber attacks, territorial attacks, and global warfare? Yes.

Rule number 1 of untrustworthy counterparties: They will always be untrustworthy, even if they are temporarily friendly.



[flagged]



And now here we all are with the russian agents firmly entrenched in the GOP.


[flagged]



> It represents the interests of the American people who voted for Trump

It really doesn't and they'll come to feel it even if they don't recognize it.



It's hilarious how some people actually believe Trump's lies that Ukraines support is actually freely given/a donation.

In reality, the support is literally the US selling the old garbage military equipment to the Ukraine for debt. You know, the stuff that the actual US military considers too old to actually use anymore.

Especially ironic in the context of Ukraines treaty with the US, which is why they dont have any nukes anymore. Which was most likely the reason why Russia finally felt comfortable invading them in 2014 and now.



>selling the old garbage

EU does the same.



Despite that being a lie... If it weren't, I'm not sure how that's relevant?

The EU isn't demanding that the Ukraine becomes an effective colony to be exploited at will by thenn for dubious claims of a solution. Neither did it have the treaty. Both of which were the things that made it ironic.



Please elaborate how sending hundreds of billions of dollars to Ukraine is in the interests of the average Trump voter.


Did you guys already forget 9/11 and invoking Article 5 of the NATO agreement for an issue on your soil?

Please elaborate how starting a war in Afghanistan was in Europe's interests. In fact, it was the USA that had created Bin Laden in the first place.

All I hear from MAGA is hypocrisy and revisionism.



We don't actually really do that.

The majority of the "funds" pay for products like shells and missiles made by American labor (which encompasses quite a few Trump voters!) in America with American parts and American steel and American know-how. We're donating no-longer-used Bradleys, F-16s, Javelins that are reaching (sometimes past!) their expiration date, etc.

https://www.csis.org/analysis/what-ukraine-aid-package-and-w...

> The notion of “aid to Ukraine” is a misnomer. Despite images of “pallets of cash” being sent to Ukraine, about 72 percent of this money overall and 86 percent of the military aid will be spent in the United States. The reason for this high percentage is that weapons going to Ukraine are produced in U.S. factories, payments to U.S. service members are mostly spent in the United States, and even some piece of the humanitarian aid is spent in the United States.

(As a bonus, we're getting to try out all our stuff against Russia's best, in a way we've never really gotten to. It's an incredible ad for American defense contractors.)

If you'd told the old Cold Warriors that a small fraction of a single year's military budget could turn the Russian military into a shadow of its original, they would not have believed you.



[flagged]



There's much that is potentially shady about that deal, such as the Clintons receiving donations through the Clinton Foundation that were allegedly bribes for the Uranium One situation. Certainly Russian foreign investment in America, especially something sensitive like uranium, should raise eyebrows.

But it's not clear there are direct or indirect ramifications for national security. Russia already has access to plenty of uranium.

This was also at a time when Russia was looking like it wanted to become a peaceful member of the world community. They were not the adversary to a peaceful world that they are today.

https://www.politifact.com/article/2017/oct/24/what-you-need...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranium_One_controversy



[flagged]



Unless we solve all problems, we aren't allowed to have an opinion on one problem.


I don't think you realize that those two issues are related. https://x.com/zei_squirrel/status/1895539811576135866

But then again, most Americans seem to have no issue with AIPAC having near full control over congress. Because if they did, we'd have seen more outrage and action.



[flagged]



I think this take only makes sense if there is no such thing as morally or justice. If we were just discussing a business deal, fine, but Ukrainians are being killed and told to be nicer to the killer’s leader. It’s an insane position.


This is a summery by a right-wing influencer who clearly has a massive bias. Do with that information what you will.


> best summary

From the author of "The origins of Woke", without aiming for ad hominem that sounds like a rather biased source from my European perspective.

I would prefer to watch the whole press conference and make my own conclusions.



>> All Zelensky had to do was remain calm for a few more minutes and they would've signed a deal.

The deal was: give the resources so we give money. And btw just hand over the land to Putin. Glad he did not sign.



> America is experiencing a decapitation strike, and our military is not defending us from these domestic enemies.

There we go, democracy is fine until it goes against the "liberal" zeitgeist. It's not really liberalism just like "far right" now seems to be regularly slapped onto viewpoints which were considered normal or even centrist a decade or two ago. It dilutes any chance of actual conversation between right and left.

Though yes the US military, rather state department, does openly fund political manipulation abroad via USAID. It's not humanitarian aid, or rather, the humanitarian aid is a side effect at best, as even liberal publications recognize [2, 3]. However like the OP here, there's increasing trends toward using USAID programs to "protect" America from stupid Americans who begin to "wrong-think" about things. The UK has a similar problem where public funding is used to influence politics where it's easy to see the absurdity [1].

I'm sorry but a few bots on X don't compromise Americans and make them some sort of far right extremists any more than me reading Lord of the Rings or 1984 does. We do need to protect ourselves from actual sabotage, bribery, etc but not use it as an excuse for blanket manipulation.

Yeah, that should be an absolute no on even considering it. The US military and state department apparatus does not have a role in deciding what Americans should believe.

1: https://europeanconservative.com/articles/commentary/right-w... 2: https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/usaid-trump-musk-... 3: https://www.wakeuptopolitics.com/p/foreign-aid-is-unpopular



> Though yes the US military, rather state department, does openly fund political manipulation abroad via USAID. It's not humanitarian aid, or rather, the humanitarian aid is a side effect at best.

You betray how much you hate democracy when you refer to efforts to strengthen the ability to conduct free and fair elections at home and aboard as "liberal activism".



Honestly I think this is a bad take and I'm not exactly what one would call a "supporter" of the current administration.

Americans get too wrapped up in the propaganda around Ukraine to even start to understand it. If your understanding of what's going on starts in 2022 and not, at least, back to 2014, then you're not really understanding what's going on.

The conflict in Ukraine has, since the 2010s, has been about fossil fuels and other mineral rights. Around that time oil and natural gas sources were found in all the regions currently being fought over.

Ukraine, sadly, will always just be a pawn for the other major players. What we're seeing here is not "Russian interests being prioritized over American interests". This war has never been about what's good for the American people nor the Ukrainian people, but the companies that stand to benefit from extraction rights (Democrats as well as Republicans get their directions from billionaires, despite the song and dance to convince you otherwise).

The prior administration had fairly strong support from and for European parties that wanted to partake of these resources. The change is really away from support for Europe in favor of two things: better relations with Russia, and more importantly, ending this thing. The "ending this thing" is not because of desires for peace, but because as long as there are bombs being dropped in this region nobody can extract anything from anywhere.

People upset about this situation are living in a world that doesn't exist anymore. We're in the end game of industrial civilization and the rules have changed. The future is no longer infinitely bright and very soon the global economy will start to contract. Additionally we'll be seeing climate catastrophe ramp up dramatically in coming years. As the Arctic melts, Canada and Russia will effectively share a border (making Trump's other "crazy" idea, less "crazy"). Europe, once our obvious ally, will have increasingly less to offer the US in the coming decades.

Europe, largely lacking in fossil resources, is going to increasingly find itself a minor player in global politics. The realpolitik of today is major oil producing nations realizing that conflict with each other will, at this phase of the game, do more harm then forming alliances.



This concept is so disingenuous. The earth is is big enough for Russian, China, and the US to coexist in peace. My country's spending should be spent in my country. Not liberating a land that has nothing to do with us.


A plane can take you or your cargo to the other side of the world in a day, missiles can go much faster than that, and communications are instantaneous. The world is still a big place but it's naive to ignore the facts of technological interconnectedness.


That's incredibly sanguine. Russia has been annexing territory and this was a gambit to take a huge chunk by force. If they had rolled over Ukraine in weeks as many predicted they'd have pointed their guns at Belarus and Georgia and all the former satellites. Acquiescing is what we did to Hitler when he wanted the Sudetenland and he was not appeased by it.

I'd also cite John Donne and say "no man is an island". Our "country" exists as an arbitrary artifact of history. If you are capable of caring about people you don't know then it shouldn't matter if they're from another state or another country.



Some countries conduct the exactly amount of war they are capable of doing, kill as many people as they have the capacity to do, until they are stopped. Russia is one of those countries.


Honestly I'm glad, for a bit there it seemed like there were some idiots that thought they could win in a direct conflict against Russia and China including going nuclear. Trump was the wost possible candidate in every aspect I can think of except one, he will put his self interest above everything else and is very flexible without any ideological beliefs that supercede his self interest.


Appeasing nuclear bullies gets you more nuclear bullying, not less.

Because of Trump's betrayal of Ukraine, the whole world knows that US security guarantees don't mean anything. These security guarantees have prevented the spread of nuclear weapons. The US has treaties with dozens of countries promising a US nuclear response if the country is nuked. Therefore, those countries have not had to develop nuclear weapons.

They do now. Their trust has been completely shattered. I guarantee you that formerly non-nuclear countries like South Korea, Japan, and half of Europe are now full speed ahead on secret nuclear weapons programs. Trump has destroyed the US-led world order and we're now on a much scarier timeline. Nuclear war is more likely, not less.



I think we have completely different views of things, how did Russia become the nuclear bully?. Are you aware of several nuclear pre-emptive strike plans that have been floating around lately in the U.S against Russia, how can the whole Ukraine 'organic' uprising be a thing when Russia is next door. Imagine if Canada suddenly went through an 'organic' uprising and decided it wanted to join the Chinese NATO equivalent, would anyone believe that possible without prior assurances?, how would the U.S respond?.

The whole 51st state cannot be a Trump only thing, he is too stupid for that, more than likely its some plan that someone told him about it and he couldn't keep quiet about it. Take into account that the whole Ukraine owing the U.S half of its mineral wealth wasn't just a Trump thing, Biden was promoting it too but he was quiet about it.

From my pov China and Russia have been the rational actors, the U.S is acting irrationally as it sees their influence crumble. They are unwilling to compete with China and want to go back to the good ol days when 'organic' coups would just happen whenever a government decided not to take whatever deal they offered.

If anything, it is the U.S that is the nuclear bully.



> how did Russia become the nuclear bully

By routinely threatening to use their nuclear weapons.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/putin-issues-warning-us...

https://www.icanw.org/new_russian_doctrine_increases_possibl...

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-...

Politics is sometimes extremely simple, and the people seeking to complicate matters are the ones with ulterior motivates to do so.

> Are you aware of several nuclear pre-emptive strike plans that have been floating around lately in the U.S against Russia

Not true. Please provide a citation if I am wrong.

> Imagine if Canada suddenly went through an 'organic' uprising and decided it wanted to join the Chinese NATO equivalent, would anyone believe that possible without prior assurances?, how would the U.S respond?

Yes, good point. Trump's idiot empty threats aside, if Canada actually felt the need to get external security guarantees against a planned US invasion, they would have every right to do so. They don't, so they don't. Ukraine does, so they do.

> The whole 51st state cannot be a Trump only thing

It is. It was not spoken of before his victory, and won't be again after he is gone. Trump is a gift to anyone seeking to "both sides" Russia's aggression, but serious people see through that.

> Ukraine owing the U.S half of its mineral wealth wasn't just a Trump thing

Again, yes it was.

> If anything, it is the U.S that is the nuclear bully.

You have yet to offer any supporting evidence of this.



What is worse, risking nuclear annihilation or risking the end of democracy as a concept and fully inviting authoritarianism?


Allowing Russia to take a country by force:

1. Will guarantee it will do it again, guaranteeing more war. 2. Will motivate more countries to get nuclear weapons, raising the chances of a nuclear war.



Is this serious?. I think you got things mixed up a bit here I think you meant to say the opposite.

The better comparison would be, would I rather have me, my kids and everyone I love die in a ball of fire or disease/hunger as society crumbles around us or risk the end of democracy and inviting authoritarianism?. I personally would always risk dictatorship, you can fight against dictators but not against death.



> The American government has been compromised by Russia. It no longer represents American interests, but Russian interests.

What kind of conspiracy theory is this? It makes no sense, at least have believable ones if you’re going to promote them.



If Trump was taking direct orders from Putin, what would he be doing differently?

Just the fact that something is fantastical and hard to believe on the surface does not make it untrue.



this is not a Trump problem, with instant global communication no leaders can be trusted by your logic, it’s not unreasonable to think that Biden took power and allowed Putin and Blackrock to each carve a piece of Ukraine off for themselves and Zelensky is a puppet of these corrupt grifters, that looks far more likely than Putin giving orders to Trump, especially with all the Burisma/Hunter emails and money trail, and considering Biden not only allowed it to happen but funded much of the destruction too, follow the money


Blueanon is so hot right now.


I think you mean by Israel.


Russia is Israels adversary, despite the appearances.


Israel's maybe, but not of Netanyahu and his government. He was cozying up to Putin already during the first Trump term [1] and is currently right at work doing the same again [2] to the point where they push the US to keep Russia in Syria rather than Turkey. [3] This despite Russia being closely allied with Iran.

An Israel-Russia alliance makes even less sense than an US-Russia one, yet both are currently happening.

[1] https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/elections/2022-07-26/ty-...

[2] https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2025-02-25/ty-article/.p...

[3] https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/2025-02-28/ty-artic...



No, it is for once representing American interests. Not Ukrainian interests. Not Lockheed Martin’s interest.

Americans don’t want to be embroiled in endless wars.

What is your alternative? Keep sending billions to Ukraine? Send American soldiers to die? What is it you would like to happen? Are you going to die for Ukraine? Are you going to send your kids to die there?



>Americans don’t want to be embroiled in endless wars.

We don't want our troops / people embroiled in them, so fighting for freedom by funding others is a good way to do that.

Waiting until it comes to your doorstep by nations who have made no qualms that they aren't friendly is a bad choice.



You don't seem to understand. All Ukraine wants is a security promise. They could surrender to Putin at any time without giving up to the US all of their resources for generations.

They need some help to say, if I sign peace now, what's gonna stop Putin from invading again in 2-3 years with a bigger army? Currently, nothing - so there's no point in surrendering.

For background, the US promised to defend Ukraine against any invasion when Ukraine was pushed to get rid of its nukes. Turns out it's not willing to even send American made military equipment.



We sent $350 billion including tons of military equipment. Most of it got stolen. They can’t even account for it.


> Keep sending billions to Ukraine?

Yes, absolutely. Ukraine falling to Russia represents a huge threat to the security of Europe. After Ukraine, Putin would likely take Belarus, possibly invade Poland or Finland. A weak Europe, one that is dominated by Russia, would be disastrous to the US, both abroad and at home. It is sad to me that so many Trump supporters are too short-sighted to see this.

What we've spent (and could spend going forward) in Ukraine is a teeny tiny price to pay to help ensure this doesn't come to pass.

America isn't about freedom anymore, it seems. It's about cozying up to dictators and appeasing them. I was disappointed in my fellow citizens after the 2016 election, but I could kinda understand what was going on. Now I'm just disgusted.

> Send American soldiers to die?

No, of course not, and this is such a bad-faith argument, as no one is seriously suggesting that.



We are $36 trillion in debt and it is growing by a trillion dollars every 100 days. Continuing to send hundreds of billions to a losing war is a bigger threat to the US.

The war will end. Russia will offer concessions that benefit the US. They are not going to steamroll Europe. Europe can step up and contribute to Europe’s defense.



Russia will offer concessions that benefit the president and his friends, you mean.


American debt is lucrative as long as you don't alienate the whole world by behaving completely irrationally. The USD being the world's transfer currency means that you can finance debt at the lowest interest rate on the planet and use that debt on more productive investments, which is what the USA's government is doing. There's a reason why the US still has a stellar credit rating.

American debt is lucrative and you morons are fucking up your cash cow because you don't understand banking and are willing to let a handful of crypto bros try to accelerate the international monetary system's downfall so that they can try to replace it by some bullshit rug pull coin that doesn't even have the technology to function as global currency.



The Republicans in charge now are responsible for a good chunk of that debt. $8 trillion in PPP helicopter money + tax cuts for the wealthy during Trump's term, plus trillions more for Bush's tax cuts and Afghanistan/Iraq warcrimes.

And they're looking to double down by giving billionaries trillions more in tax cut while driving up the debt. Trump/Musk/GOP do not actually care about debt or spending, it's a distraction.



People like you in 2014:

"We should not push back against Russia's annexation of Crimea. It will allow the war to end. They are not going to invade Ukraine to take other territory."



The debt will only grow under Republican leadership. Framing this as an economic issue is disingenuous, and we all know it.

That debt goes straight into enriching the already rich.



You’re being downvoted, but sadly your opinion is representative of a huge percentage of the population. The part that has a… simple, transactional view of each and every international incident.

That’s the most polite way I could express that.

The more nuanced view is this:

America made a deal with Ukraine: Give up your nuclear weapons in exchange for our protection.

They made similar deals with Taiwan, South Korea, and others. Sometimes with signatures on paper, sometimes with threats of “don’t even think about it”.

Now they are “all thinking about it”. All of them: the countries with small populations, small armies, inconveniently located next to a larger bully like Russia or China.

Here in Australia, the right wing government is prepping us to build nuclear weapons. We’re acquiring nuclear-powered submarines that can launch nuclear tipped cruise missiles and the only thing they’re proposing in the next election is building dozens of nuclear power plants… that they admit will only fulfill maybe 4% of our energy needs… but 100% of our weapons-grade plutonium breeding needs.

South Korea and Japan already have the nuclear plants.

What do you think they’re planning, now that they all see how worthless American promises are?

Especially since yesterday’s(!) events, when Trump was asked about AUKUS, the most important and closest military alliance the US is a part of and he had no idea what it was!

This is why even close allies are tooling up for imminent global nuclear conflict.

Because America elected a president that famously violates the terms of every contract he’s ever signed.

Twice. To make sure everyone got the message.



Japan is absolutely thinking about its own nuclear deterrent. The conventional diplomatic wisdom is that they can spin one up rapidly. Like most countries, they're deeply taken aback by the US trashing existing alliances and showing far more rhetorical aggression toward its neighbors than its supposed antagonists.

https://www.irsem.fr/media/etude-irsem-93-albessard-japan-en...



In what way is it in my interest to give hundreds of billions of my nation's money toward fighting an unwinnable conflict on the other side of the world over which corrupt sex trafficking organization will control a small plot of land? The Cold War propaganda derangement that still exists in the minds of certain people is insane.


The USSR never acted even half as hostile as Russia is acting towards the whole world, including the US and UK right now. Maybe you're not aware of that but Russian state TV routinely discusses the nuclear annihilation of the UK and the US, not just that of Europe. Current rhetoric from the Kremlin is way more hostile than it ever was during Cold War.

You better put a stop to that by showing strength. Unless you want ignore history, that is.



The claim you're making is ludicrous. We don't show strength by giving away all of our resources on pointless conflicts that don't involve us. Even if the USSR was as nice as you pretend, Ukraine was also part of the USSR, and is being just as hostile to American interests.


Then your government needs to shut up instead of undermining the efforts of the rest of the free world to save Ukraine.

However, it is worth noting that from a geopolitical perspective you're the one who is ludicrous.



That's literally what we're doing. Zelensky came to beg for more money, and we're shutting up. I don't really care if Europeans want to go die pointlessly on the frontlines for some reason.


No, unfortunately you're not shutting up. Your government is currently pursuing a crazy pro Russia agenda.


oh, that’s nice. tell me what country was the only one who invoked article 5 of the nato treaty? and which countries helped them? and now the the situation has reversed what does that country do?


"Ukraine was also part of the USSR, and is being just as hostile to American interests."

What does that even mean ... ?

The former Soviet Bloc was under the yoke of the central committee in Moscow. The people involved had no say in the politics of the central committee, they were coerced. But once its power failed, the newly free countries mostly turned their backs on Russia in a hurry. Only Belarus stayed in the orbit.

Contemporary Ukraine (or Lithuania, or Georgia) is not hostile to the US in any meaningful sense.



    giving away all of our resources
You think $100-$200bn is "all of our resources?" I realize you're not being literal, but it's more like "less than 1% of our resources."

https://usafacts.org/articles/how-much-does-the-us-spend-on-...

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/crew8y7pwd5o

Reliable estimates put our total spend (over 3+ years) as $120-$180bn.

The annual US military budget, $820bn (13% of the total government budget) or more like $2.4 trillion during that timespan.

But even that purported $100-$200bn spend perhaps overstates the cost. Some was cash, some was equipment. The equipment sent their way was already bought and paid for. Much of it was later in its lifespan. And the US military obviously buys American whenever feasible, so money spent replacing that equipment stays in America. So the amount of money "spent" by America on this venture is highly debatable, with the real number being lower than those $100-$200bn totals.

    We don't show strength by blah blah blah
Really? Because Russia looked weak as hell there, unable to conquer a small country that is using a fraction of our old stuff (and a hell of a lot of heart and ingenuity) that was gathering dust in warehouses. It certainly made it clear that in conventional warfare the distance between our two countries is rather vast.

    pointless conflicts that don't involve us
I mean, people definitely said that when Germany invaded Poland. We shouldn't get involved in every conflict but we also should not ignore every conflict.

I don't think Russia is trying to conquer Europe, but they are the single largest power and they have proven to be a highly destabilizing force.



We're not giving away all our resources lmao. Support for Ukraine is a relatively small part of our budget and gdp. In return for this we get to significantly weaken and discourage our enemies. For every dollar that we pour in, Russia is losing many more. Iran and China's imperialist ambitions are crushed. And none of our people even needed to die for it. You're either a fool or an enemy if you don't see why we should support Ukraine.


    For every dollar that we pour in, Russia is losing many more
It also can't be stated enough when dollar amounts are talked about...

Much of the value sent to Ukraine was equipment that was already purchased and was warehoused. In a sense, that cost us nothing. Some of that equipment was already slated for replacement. The equipment that will need to be repurchased is primarily purchased from American companies.

So it burns me up when people talk about how we sent $XYZ billion dollars of aid to Ukraine without understanding that the real cost to America was far far far less.



> give hundreds of billions of my nation's money

30% of the US aid goes to ukraine for immediate local purposes, think humanitarian and and economic relief, the other 70% goes to us defense manufacturers, directly supporting american companies who then send their stock of weapons to ukraine. This 70% that goes directly to US companies is counted in the total aid provided



I can think of a hundred things we could have US defense contractors make instead. And it's surprising how quickly Democrats have begun worshiping the Military Industrial Complex. As recently as Bush, it was the boogeyman. Now I'm supposed to support shoveling money into it to burn? Why don't we spend $100B on having American workers build high-speed rail instead, or anything else more useful than drawing out an unwinnable conflict? All that would be purchased with this money is a lot more dead Ukrainians before it's over.


There is currently an air raid siren in Kyiv. Because of US Kyiv has better air defense, so in case of rocket strike some would be intercepted. There are benefits to US aid.


It's clearly not unwinnable. Russia is doing serious structural damage to its economy and can't get enough Russians to fight, so they're pulling North Koreans in (who think they're going to fight South Korea). At worst (for Ukraine), Russia is piling up dead bodies at a 2:1 ratio, and in the process Ukraine is now the world's leading drone combatant. And all the whining that Trump has done about Europe not pulling its weight, is going to be answered with Europe now understanding that US aid is over and they're all publicly pledging to step in.

And the US has more than enough money to build high speed rail and continue or double its support for Ukraine. Available money isn't the problem.

The US has cleared out vast reserves of older armaments that they no longer have to pay to warehouse or retire safely. Besides most of that aid money going into American pockets, the inventory has been cycled for America's benefit.

If the US had chosen to be a steadfast ally and actually help Ukraine win, it could have reaped the same rewards it received after WW2 once Ukraine won: rebuild it as a bastion of capitalism and democracy and let the rising tide lift all boats, especially the leader's. Instead, you're walking away, destroying NATO and transatlantic co-operation in the process. And by doing so, you're making Europe independent of the US, when dependency on the US was the cornerstone of 80 years of peace in Europe as well as a strong world economy. Congratulations on kissing goodbye the very thing that's made America so wealthy and strong for the last 80 years.



This is severe whataboutism. I'm not a fan of the MIC, and much money given to it could be better spent on other things.

But the reality is that money poured into the MIC to replace equipment we sent to Ukraine is not money that leaves the US economy, and it is absolutely essential to understand that when discussing the "cost" of this war to America.



Besides all the good responses you already got demolishing this point of view, there's the direct benefit of testing all sorts of military equipment and strategies in an actual armed conflict. Even if you somehow ignore the massive human losses and the morality of the war with Russia invading a peaceful ally, the telemetry the US obtains is insane and well worth the money invested.


Exhibit A for level one thinking.


Because you want the world to trust that the US won't turn their backs on agreements especially when it involves a country giving up their nukes. Which would have helped protect them.


Nobody in the US voted for that agreement. I want the world to notice that they need to stop treating my people like daddy's credit card. It's a shame that the previous occupying regime hated its constituents enough to make these insane agreements to try and loot us, but we definitely don't need to stick to them now just because of that.


Yes, in the USA we vote for representatives who then make agreements on our behalf. That we don't have direct democracy on every level does not make our process undemocratic, and does not make all of our agreements null and void.

I want my people to keep their basic agreements and promises so that the rest of the world continues to trust our dollar as a reserve currency and our stock market as a safe place to invest.



> I want my people to keep their basic agreements and promises

I didn't agree to send anything to Ukraine; there is no agreement to keep. Maybe we should just raise taxes on you people who voted for it and send your money if you're so insistent. Go to the front lines, even, if you'd like. I don't support either of the two corrupt oligarchies in this fight and you have no right to bring the other half of the country in it, especially now that you were voted out.



So you don't believe in society? Or only a society with direct democracy has legitimacy? That's the philosophy of a spoiled selfish child.

You believe every agreement out country makes should reset every 4 years? That the recipe for zero legitimacy in the world and especially isn't going to keep our position in the world.

I have EVERY RIGHT to argue that the USA should honors it's obligations, I have morals and honor unlike people who don't believe obligations they don't like should be honored if they can justify weaseling out of them.



What 'previous occupying regime'? You are not making much sense.


You don’t vote for any policy or action.

You vote for Presidents and politicians who act on your behalf.



So now just loot Ukraine, a country weakened by war. And blame their president in stead of the agressor. Oh and 'he said bad but unfortunately true things over the phone' so let's humiliate him in my only language while he's asking for help in his third language.


"In what way is it in my interest to give millions of my nation's money away to this filthy and corrupt justice system in an unwinnable fight against crime? I mean whether some mostly harmless serial killer offs two or three more people in southern Nebraska is none of my business--I can't possibly see how anything of this is connected or how it could ever affect me."


If you don't stand up to bullies like Putin, they continue to act as bullies.

You cannot appease a bully. They will take what you gave them and then return to bullying you.



You don't understand anything.


That’ll be water for the Russian propaganda. America, what have you chosen. It’s clear you have a Russian insurgent in the White House.

They have already started dismantling the government. Next they’ll shake up the military. Every totalitarian regime shakes up the military.



>Next they’ll shake up the military.

"Next?"

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-pushes-out-top-us-gen...



I was being sarcastic. I’m sorry, I am trying not to be passive aggressive, exactly in that order.


We've crossed the Rubicon, where sarcasm is no longer indistinguishable from reality.


Hah, my bad for missing it. ;)




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I think that everybody else did the same as Obama back then. Obama really got into this bombing-people-with-drones-in-some-places-around-the-world stuff.

Those are two different situations with completely different ramifications.



This is how NATO replaces the US with Ukraine. Kicking the US out of Five Eyes is likely next.


I don’t see this happening. Five Eyes is the US’s invite only security umbrella. Many in Australia would love to kick the Americans off our land (eg Pinegap) but as the US will “coup who they want” that ain’t happening.


The US is trying to kick Canada [1] and the UK [2] out. If the US is going rouge, the rest of the free world can go without them.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43200375

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43166670



Sadly the US still has a lot of nukes and aircraft carriers ready to project power over its rebelling subjects and partners. I don’t expect the military to start refusing orders just because the president became a corrupt tyrant through legal means.


> Sadly the US still has a lot of nukes and aircraft carriers ready to project power over its rebelling subjects and partners.

So does the UK.

Not enough to take back the old colonies and demand interest payments for the tea, but enough to make it a bad idea for anyone to try that.

> I don’t expect the military to start refusing orders just because the president became a corrupt tyrant through legal means.

I expect almost all militaty personel to obey almost all orders, even when they're expressly unlawful… but not all: Vietnam had both the My Lai massacre and the coining of "fragging" due to soldiers throwing fragmentation grenades into the tents of their own officers.



In these regards, I think the US's unfortunately very hard to dislodge advantage is less the ships missiles & guns, and far more the "secret history of silicon valley" style signals intelligence gathering & processing. Very very specifically our massive massive government aggregators/analysis systems (not the focus of these amazing talks). https://steveblank.com/secret-history/ https://hn.algolia.com/?query=secret%20history%20of%20silico...

The NSA built them released Apache Accumulo & Apache Nifi, to offer extremely fine grained control of massive massive data systems. Unknown if this is still the state of the art, but they're still contributing. The platform infrastructure to be Five Eyes feels like it must be absolutely vast, >50% of the job of Five Eyes. Its hard for me to imagine an alliance of nations taking this task seriously enough to build their own, to serve as the hub.



Regarding Pine Gap, they've allegedly done it before even without Elon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alleged_CIA_involvement_in_the...



I see US influence being drastically reduced in the coming years. But we need to do something about their disinformation networks.

I see people leaving their government and media positions in protest but I’d like to remind them that they are much more effective if they remain where they are. The CIA has an excellent manual just for situations like these.



Why kick out? Just start a new club (I'm sure they already have, probably years ago, or increased activity in one that already existed) and let this one wither.


Potato, potato.


Sure, similar outcome, just less drama.


I actually think Europe has a lot of levers to pull in terms of manipulating American politics and public opinion that they have thus far refrained from engaging in, and I, as an American, think they should be much bolder about speaking directly to the American people.

I don't think that ordinary diplomacy is going to work here. The US is in the middle of a totalitarian coup, and that should be called out by our friends and allies more forcefully.

Stop trying to ingratiate yourself with Trump. He doesn't deserve it and you won't get anything out of it but humiliation.



there is still to much corruption in the Ukraine, that Europe will never accept.


Dear Americans, please do something. Protest, write letters to congressmen etc. We Germans went through all of this 90 years ago..


People complained that the Russians didn't protest more at the beginning of the war, and here you have the Americans, who won't be sent to Siberia or thrown out of a window, doing nothing.


American liberals are so full of lifelong indoctrination into thinking that laws, courts, and constitutions are what hold up democracy ... they're just going in circles for the last 10 years expecting the next election or court decision to save them.

They have no real concept of the mobilization of people power, street protest, disobedience because it's been stripped from the ideological palette of American liberalism.

Those on the left who do hold these concepts of opposition are deliberately marginalized by their two party system.

Just like with Russians and the war, the world cannot expect domestic dissent within these countries to save them. It's up to the people of Europe & Canada to form alliances and do the best we can.



American liberal propaganda is so powerful because liberals sincerely are incapable of seeing it because they take it as fact.

What's odd is that, despite considering themselves "left", no one them seem to have gotten through enough Marx to understand the concept of "ideology" which is the basis for their distorted worldview.

I always felt this 4chan Harry Potter copypasta perfectly captured contemporary American liberal ideology: https://preview.redd.it/qiqe74sl19141.jpg?auto=webp&s=07645c...



You're greying-out because you used the M word. I learned a long time ago to present the concepts, not the name, while on this forum.


I always find it interesting that Americans will rant on about how oppressive China is because you can't talk about a particular event (Tiananmen Square massacre), while not batting an eye that mention one of the most prominent thinkers in Western history will get everything else you say absolutely invalidated.

Again, a perfect examples... somebodies writings on ideology.





What do you think we've been doing? I've spent literally two decades of my life advocating policies to try to prevent this from happening... the left is blind to their decadence and the right has gone insane.


And how did you stop it?


By giving Czechoslovakia to Nazi Germany


Does anyone know what an average citizen can do that will have an impact? I’ve called my reps office in DC before but I don’t know if that does anything.


Organise a political revolution. Nothing less than that will have an actual impact


Unionize and go on strike. Like nationwide.


Learn from France.


It's lost, at least till mid term.


Authoritarian governments don't collapse because of the "will of the people", that's a myth perpetuated by those in power to legitimize their positions. The major driver is the material conditions a society exists in.

We are beginnign to experience the contraction of the global economy, and as material conditions worsen, expect everything else to follow suit. Democracy doesn't bring prosperity, it a consequence of prosperity.

The comparisons of Trump to Hitler as also mind-numbingly facile. Other than a penchant for authoritarianism, they share little in common. But what they do share in common is they are both emergent phenomena of their contemporary environments.



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Consider instead that Donald Trump may be more like Neville Chamberlain, who wanted to appease Hitler ("peace in our time"). Your family may well have perished instead of been liberated had Chamberlain's doctrine remained in effect, and you may well have never been born.

It's not that Trump is a Nazi himself, but rather that Trump is enabling other tyrants like Vladimir Putin to pose grave threats like the ones to Ukraine today. If liberation is something you really care about in light of your family’s journey, Ukraine is a great team to cheer for.



The first Trump administration lifted Obama's ban on lethal aid to Ukraine and supplied and trained Ukrainians on Javelin anti-tank missiles, night vision devices, counter-battery fire radar systems, and secure battlefield communications equipment among other things. The proposition that Trump is an appeaser does not bear scrutiny. Neither does the speculation that Russia might be capable of or interested in a wider war with Europe, let alone the USA.


> The proposition that Trump is an appeaser does not bear scrutiny. Neither does the speculation that Russia might be capable of or interested in a wider war with Europe, let alone the USA.

OK, then why shouldn't we call Russia's bluff and tell them to get out of Ukraine, or else? That would surely restore peace if you are correct.



You can tell Russia whatever you want, but you can't threaten the existence of the Russian state with American military might backed by the credible threat of nuclear weapons. That has a significant chance of provoking a nuclear Russian response.


I’m struggling to understand the logic of your thinking.

Suppose we left Ukraine empty-handed. What do you think will happen next? What do you think the best case and worst case scenarios are? What if the best-case scenario doesn’t come to pass? Would you regret it if Russia expanded its invasions further?



>Suppose we left Ukraine empty-handed. What do you think will happen next?

I don't really care.

>Would you regret it if Russia expanded its invasions further?

They're not invading NATO with refurbished T-62s. This is an insane boogeyman.



Why should they be invading any country with refurbished T-62s? And in your precious post you said you were concerned about them using nukes. Which is it?

Why does your care for others begin at NATO borders?



Geopolitics is about more than feelings wrapped around complex, poorly-understand conflicts halfway around the world.


This statement adds nothing to the conversation and doesn’t answer my questions. And in my experience, a person who can’t answer pointed questions usually understands the situation less than the ones who can.

I’m out.



Except I want peace in Ukraine finally, and not billions of dollars wasted and more lives killed because Zelensky doesn’t love a potential peace deal. Don’t compare apples and oranges…loses credibility.


If you are fine making other people live under putins thumb... Are you willing to put yourself in that position?


It's a ceasefire, not a peace deal. With a party who has no history of honoring ceasefires.

Trump wants all of their mineral resources for a flimsy ceasefire. With no concessions from Russia.

It's a bad deal. Would you fold because people would die when your sovereignty is threatened?



It will always be a bad deal for Ukraine. This has never been about Ukraine, it as been about who will control their resources Russia, NATO Europe or the US. For that last two years Europe and the US have assumed they were on the same team and Trump is simply decided in might make more sense for us to side with Russia.

There was no future where the Ukraine was not exploited by fossil fuel companies and only propaganda separates which is the "good" side to control these and which is the "bad".

I'm genuinely surprised by the mass naivete surrounding this war.



As far as the US and allies are concerned, this is very simply a war for the protection of Ukraine's sovereignty. Now that the US changed into a wannabe imperialistic nation, the picture is not so clear.


> this is very simply a war for the protection of Ukraine's sovereignty

This is objectively not true. The US government absolutely participated in over throwing the existing pro-Russian government around 2014. The US does not fight wars for "moral principles" like sovereignty, they do it so they can maintain control over fossil fuel resources.

This war, like all wars, is a war of different wealthy individual and organization to control resources. All other views are propaganda generated to gather support for the loss of human life in the interest of oligarchs across the globe.

> Now that the US changed into a wannabe imperialistic nation,

I'm not sure I know anyone who has paid attention to global politics since WWII who would not describe the US as an "imperialistic nation". If you earnestly believe this is some new turn in US history you have a lot of catching up to do on our involvement in overthrowing governments around the globe to maintain US friendly leadership in counteries that control key strategic resources.



>The US government absolutely participated in over throwing the existing pro-Russian government around 2014.

This is explicitly Russian propaganda. There is no evidence of this. Euromaidan happened because Ukrainians wanted to get closer to Europe, which is why they voted for people who said they would get closer to Europe, and then aggressively erupted into protest when that leader went to Russia and came back with a 180 degree different plan.



Why was Hunter Biden added to the board of directors at Bursima in 2014? And why did Biden retroactively grant him a blanket pardon from 2014 to 2024?

It's the same as Iraq, except using that US "soft power" everyone started fetishizing as of last month.



Your comment deflects to reasons for the war. It does not address the core argument that it really wasn't a peace deal and that Russia commonly violates ceasefires. What good is a ceasefire when you know that Russia will violate it?

Doesn't sound like a deal (good or bad) at all. It's a paper prop for Trump to wave around and exchange for a gold star from Putin.



> Your comment deflects to reasons for the war.

This war started in the early 2010s as fossil fuel reserves were discovered all over Ukraine and Russian and US policy makers both rushed to gain control over them.

I'm surprised that people don't remember, but the US did support far right Ukrainian groups that did have Nazi sympathies in 2014. I remember because I had Ukrainian friends that where terrified at the types of people the US government was enabling.

There are no "good guys" in this conflict. It's two (well more than that) powerful groups of people with an interest in controlling fossil fuel resource in the regional. All other narrative around this are pure propaganda designed to get you to support the murder of Ukrainians in the interests of oligarchs around the world.



Can you explain how this mirrors what happened in Germany?


"First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

—Martin Niemöller"



Russia probably has strong kompromats on Trump and his administration. Can't explain it any other way. Why otherwise they would go out of the way to make idiots of themselves in public in front of the whole world?

I know Trump has not been an example of tact but this is something else.



Could be as simple as he wants to say he "ended" the war. If history offers any lessons, it's that he doesn't think too much about the details and doesn't care how his actions impact others.


I totally think the people saying that KGB has video or photos or whatever from the late '80s of him sleeping with KGB agent/call girls or similar are plausible. But I have a really hard time imagining Trump being embarrassed by anything like that. He'd be like "Of course I slept with beautiful women! who wouldn't?"

I'd love to have some idea of what they could actually have that he'd be ashamed of, but he's so shameless it's hard for me to imagine. Which makes me more inclined to think that he just hasn't met a dictator that he's not jealous of more so than anything.



I guess it would end up like usual: "They are fake news. They are created with AI. Everybody can do it. My dog can do it. They just hate America. Bad people. They want to hurt our great country[…]" And his radicalized voters will follow him, like it did not end Berlusconi career after the "bunga-bunga" scandal


Maybe they weren't adults...


Apparently he raped a 13 year old under Epstein care.

Though I don't think he would be embarrassed by that. He'd just call it fake news and move on.



> I'd love to have some idea of what they could actually have that he'd be ashamed of, but he's so shameless it's hard for me to imagine.

“Well, we don’t rely on American banks. We have all the funding we need out of Russia.” -Eric Trump, 2014

"In terms of high-end product influx into the US, Russians make up a pretty disproportionate cross-section of a lot of our assets" -Don Jr, 2008



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Trump has no shame, he doesn't care.

He's a super fan of what Putin's achieved in Russia, president for life, absolute control of the political machine for personal gain, and respects his version of the how the world works above all.



Trump is ashamed of losers. Only losers get pissed on.


> Why otherwise they would go out of the way to make idiots of themselves in public in front of the whole world?

Because they are pure evil people, just like putin, and nobody is stopping them. It's that simple.



This is not mutually exclusive. Being evil makes it easier to succumb to Putin demands.


It's hard to imagine anything he's done in private with the KGB cameras rolling being worse than the mountain of stuff that's already publicly known, or that he has openly done in public.


The point of diluting the notion of truth into a meaningless concept - a process so loved by both Putin and Trump - is to make things such as kompromats have zero power.

Just imagine some photos and videos of Trump having sex with minors or even murdering someone emerge. Do you actually believe it will be damaging to him? “It’s fake, it’s AI, it’s our enemies trying to attack us”.



Is the US now run by a Russian asset?


Why aren't tech stocks in freefall? Chinese invasion of Taiwan now seems imminent.


Not immediately imminent. China themselves have said 2027-ish.


Major amphibious operations take 4-6 months to plan and prepare if rushed. I cannot imagine the Chinese watching the feed from the White House without seeing it as a row of green lights blinking for them. The unholy alliance of tech companies and Russian astroturfing on their unregulated social media platforms has delivered a decapitation strike on Washington. The US government is rapidly severing long-standing alliances, and showing utter unwillingness to defend its strategic interests - all out of sheer incompetence, no less.


Nah, I think they’ll wait until a civil war breaks out in the US


This


> China themselves have said 2027-ish.

According to the CIA, which has never, ever fabricated anything in the entire history of its existence to justify starting or escalating wars.



This comes directly from Xi's speeches at the People's National Congress, going back to 2023.


Find me a credible source then. I happen to be able to read and write Chinese as well, so don't limit yourself to English-language sources. I'm happy to be proven wrong. Everything I've found says that US intelligence thinks that Xi wants to invade by 2027 -- nothing directly from the Chinese government itself.

You might want to read this Defense News article (https://archive.vn/UNXdC), titled "How DC became obsessed with a potential 2027 Chinese invasion of Taiwan".

***

"... according to an American official who later spoke to the press, Chinese leader Xi Jinping grew exasperated — not at the risk of war, but at the timeline.

“Xi basically said: ‘Look, I hear all these reports in the United States [of] how we’re planning for military action in 2027 or 2035,’” the official said. “‘There are no such plans,’” Xi said in the official’s telling. “‘No one has talked to me about this.’”

That first year, 2027, is a fixation in Washington. It has impacted the debate over China policy — a shift from the long term to the short term. It’s also helped steer billions of dollars toward U.S. forces in the Pacific. And in the last several years, it’s been a question mark hanging over the Biden administration’s approach to the region.

According to U.S. intelligence, Xi has told the Chinese military it needs to be ready to invade Taiwan by that year. ...

This became the standard line across the administration — affirmed by Central Intelligence Agency Director Bill Burns.

“President Xi has instructed the PLA [People’s Liberation Army], the Chinese military leadership to be ready by 2027 to invade Taiwan. But that doesn’t mean that he’s decided to invade in 2027 or any other year as well,” Burns said during a TV interview in February 2023."

***

> This comes directly from Xi's speeches at the People's National Congress

You might be referring to his 2022 speech, where a part of his speech was given the title "XII. Achieving the Centenary Goal of the People’s Liberation Army and Further Modernizing National Defense and the Military". (https://archive.vn/tSO65)

If you read its contents, you'd realise that he was talking about modernisation goals for the PLA, and not about invading Taiwan at all. All the information publicly available about Xi's supposed plans to invade Taiwan in/by 2027 comes from the US. While I do not doubt China's imperialistic ambitions, 1) there are many ways for the Chinese to achieve reunification with Taiwan without a military invasion; 2) the CIA has very little credibility.



Uhhh. I believe you have misread the post. The only thing I said was that an invasion was not imminent. And as you yourself are pointing out, they would not be ready for such a thing until 2027.

But I also don't see your point. "Don't believe the CIA, but do believe the Pentagon (according to this article), and also do believe China's propaganda minister". Clearly it's a thing the US Intelligence community disagrees on. But if Xi is saying China needs to be capable of having a massive sealift operation by 2027, arguing over whether it will actually happen or not is not actually relevant.

As a word of caution. Hitler denied plans for an invasion of France, as did the US for Iraq, or Putin for Ukraine - to give a variety of examples. If a dictator says ahead of time that they have a goal, we should not be surprised if they actually go for it.



> I believe you have misread the post

Very likely. I interpreted your comment(s) to say that "The CCP said that they wanted to invade Taiwan by 2027", but my interpretation is seemingly wrong, and I ended up trying to address what I thought you said.

> we should not be surprised if they actually go for it.

Whether Xi invades Taiwan or not, I wouldn't be surprised either way. I'm not doubting at all that China has expansionist designs on Taiwan and the South China Sea. But there are many paths to reunification with Taiwan without starting a direct war. Why would China invade, when its leaders can clearly see that Russia, through strategic patience, bribery, and aggressive hybrid warfare, has finally won the Cold War without ever having to invade the US militarily?

Bribery is rampant among high-ranking military officers in Taiwan, for example. Many of them have been exposed to have sold classified information to the Chinese government for trifling amounts of money. China has also managed to poach a lot of former TSMC engineers to work at SMIC by offering generous salaries. Why take military action against Taiwan today (or in 2027) when China just has to be very, very patient, especially with Trump dragging the US into the realm of irrelevance?

All paths lead to Rome. China's war on Taiwan might be much more insidious and subtle than we expect.



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"Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, bots, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email [email protected] and we'll look at the data."

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...



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biden ran on that, did a good job, and was demolished for it


He didn't help himself by appearing to stroke out during the debates. good on policy in many respects, bad communicator, bad strategist.


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Thank you. Agree. This post only makes me like HN less.


Your feelings don't matter.


Well, here come the downvotes, but for anybody who thinks that it is completely believable that Trump is a Russian stooge or is “on Russias side” let me offer this up:

- We want peace. Full stop. No more dead men, women, and children. THAT IS THE GOAL.

CONTEXT:

- Trump armed Ukraine to the teeth in first term, providing lethal aid which previous presidents did not do. He wanted to deter Putin while not also escalating.

- Adding Ukraine to NATO is a line in the sand for Putin. How would we feel the US feel if China and Mexico entered a defense agreement and placed Chinese missiles on the US border? Adding Ukraine to Nato is an ESCALATION.

- Biden admin sent Kamala over to Europe in '21 saying it was time to add Ukraine to NATO. Good job guys.

- Biden then said his response to a potential Putin invasion would "depend on whether it was a major or minor invasion" (I'm generalizing).

- Biden then flopped Afghanistan. US weak.

- There were rumblings of a peace deal in early 2022, but Boris Johnson and European delegation shot it down.

Europe and Ukraine are relying on the US to bankroll/supply a war with one of the world's greatest nuclear threat. THIS ISN'T A FUCKING VIDEO GAME. The lines have been more or less drawn. If we continue this war, we either:

(a) at a minimum, drive Russia into closer alliance with China while killing many more Russians and Ukrainians

(b) provoke a hot war amongst many nations, leading to the death of millions

OR

We get a peace deal done with the general boundaries that have been consistent for nearly two years: Russia provinces going to Russia, a DMZ established, and Ukraine sadly smaller.

This isn't simply "we must support the Good Guys and defeat the Bad Guys". Right now Trump wants PEACE and feels as if Zelensky demands to call the shots. He can't call the shots. He is not the US.

Addendum:

Re mineral rights and the accusation "Trump just wants the $$$", you do realize that placing a large US business interest in Ukraine (as opposed to backdoor dealings) is actually a way of strengthening the US's commitment and investment in Ukraine, right?



We want peace! If your own country was invaded, would you be saying the same thing? Just roll over and let them have their way with you? I'm genuinely curious if you have the courage of what you say your convictions are.


No, I would fight them tooth and nail. As would any member of an invaded country. Duh.

But, if after several years a generation of my peers have been killed and I don't see a logic end to this war any time soon, well then I might start to re-evaluate.

But you know what's really dirty?

The pro-war people in the US are doing the opposite of what you say: gladly cheering on the slaughter of Ukrainians so long as it defeats the "boogeyman". Which side is more pro-Ukrainian? The side that results in more dead Ukrainians or less?



So it sounds like you are saying it should be for Ukraine to decide whether to continue the war or not?


> We want peace. Full stop. No more dead men, women, and children. THAT IS THE GOAL.

If that was the goal, why is Trump asking for Ukraine's natural resources? Maybe his goals are different than yours.

---

Russia annexed Crimea in 2014, which is why Ukraine was seeking protection.

From Ukraine's point of view, if they make peace now, and give up territory... Russia will do the same thing again in a couple of years. Many more people will die.

Russia doesn't care about killing off its population, they have lots of poor and non-ethnic-Russian citizens, and they think nothing of having them die to get some more land.



Read my whole reply. I literally addressed that at the end. Read the whole thing before you dismiss something.


> placing a large US business interest in Ukraine (as opposed to backdoor dealings) is actually a way of strengthening the US's commitment and investment in Ukraine, right?

If the US is not willing to militarily defend it, it doesn't mean anything. Russia can just take the land, and cut a deal with the US to let them extract there for some time.

A security guarantee or NATO membership would be an effective deterrent to further conflict, but Trump doesn't want it.



> Trump armed Ukraine to the teeth in first term, providing lethal aid which previous presidents did not do.

Indeed, this reads like a convincing argument to me.

> you do realize that placing a large US business interest in Ukraine (as opposed to backdoor dealings) is actually a way of strengthening the US's commitment and investment in Ukraine, right?

Honestly, the best pro-Trump explanation I've read. Well done! I'm sure that wasn't easy ;)



This is the correct answer. Everyone here saying "We need to stand up to Putin..." won't be fighting on the frontlines and at worst, we can be entering WW3 if the US, Russia, and the EU keep escalating the conflict.


About your analogy to China and Mexico... There are already 6 NATO countries bordering Russia. It's really just about Putin being unhappy that they can't attack and annex where they please.


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ok, yes and no.

why does trump need augurs (like scop) to divine a cogent narrative. trump obviously can't and none in his administration can.

the simple explanation; trump is spiteful (e.g. all the references to obama, biden), vance a toadie (unreal, the petulance) , and they can only talk in terms of "deals", TV soap opera trash dialogue. zelensky argues that deals need guarantees. all that is in that 10 minute video, for all to see. clear as day. and we've have observed, with the the same clarity, similar displays (maybe of lesser intensity) the last 10 years or so.

the 4d chess explanation; scop needs to come along (sorry scop to pull you in!, I like your optimism), and we need to trust there's a deep bench actually acting with any sort of cohesive purpose on that vision. unlike the simple explanation, there's very little evidence. usa foreign policy is untethered now, only thing left to do is reading the flight of the birds.

i want to believe, but there is a ton of posthoc rationalizing going on the trump side. it was like this after 2016, a different stable time, after 8 years of blissfully dreadfully boring obama stability. it is not such a time now.



Trump speaks very, very plainly. He is certainly discursive. He most certainly goes back and forth on a few things, sometimes because he changes his mind other times because he is negotiating/trolling/etc.

But the main problem isn't that he needs "augors", it's that you have an entire media complex that is constantly misrepresenting what he says in the most negative possible light. People listen to what he says and then immediately apply a filter of the most negative interpretation possible. Or they outright lie.

Did Trump call white supremecists very fine people? Did he tell people to drink bleach? The list goes on...

Meanwhile, what was the main "instability" of trump's first 24 months? Ah, yes, the Russiagate hoax where any day now a smoking gun was coming. Hoax after hoax after hoax.

Re Obama's blissful years:

- Occupy wall st fades away, no real reform

- Stagnating economy

- Arab spring waffles

- Chinese aggression in Taiwan sea

- Putin annexes Crimea

- ISIS is born and terrorist attacks become a regular part of the news cycle

- Unprecedented union of DOJ w/ president (Eric Holder says "I'm Obama's wingman")

- IRS targeting conservatives

- Tan suit (lol)

Compare all that to Trump going into 2020 whereforeign policy wasn't even part of the debates.



Thx, but we really do remember the Obama years differently haha.

Good economy, low simmer.

Ows faded, but how was that Obamas fault. He didn't run on left platform.

There was international strife, but it was localized and didn't seem to spend neoliberal order (we'll miss it when it's gone)

Anyway, I hope you're right, and this is just theatrics.



Trump did not "arm Ukraine to the teeth" in his first term. He send a little bit of infantry weapons, and some armored cars. That's it. It was a big break from Obama administration that essentially embargoed any weapons sales to Ukraine, but it was not in any way "arming to the teeth". Arming Ukraine in a sufficient manner would have required tens of billions each year, that did not happen.

"- There were rumblings of a peace deal in early 2022, but Boris Johnson and European delegation shot it down."

There was no such thing. The "peace deal" in question was a Russian capitulation offer, which was never signed.

"- Adding Ukraine to NATO is a line in the sand for Putin. How would we feel the US feel if China and Mexico entered a defense agreement and placed Chinese missiles on the US border? Adding Ukraine to Nato is an ESCALATION."

There was zero chance of Ukraine joining NATO simply due to the existing territorial disputes with Russia. Russian ultimatum to US in December 2021 was clear — get NATO to pre-1997 — Poland, Romania, Bulgaria, Lithuania, Estonia, Latvia, Czech Republic etc should all leave NATO. That would mean dissolution of NATO effectively.

"a large US business interest in Ukraine (as opposed to backdoor dealings) is actually a way of strengthening the US's commitment and investment in Ukraine, right?"

It can work the same with Russia occupying the same territory. There is nothing there about "Ukraine" per se.



is HN flooded with bots from ukraine propaganda machine? or is this just woke left?


Maybe is just has thoughtful people who are against mass murder?


Therefore they want Ukrainian men to continue dying in a war they never had a chance of winning?


How much time Putin will need to break Minsk’s third ceasefire agreement?


Ukraine violated it last time and Merkel admitted they never intended to honor it.


There are two opposing strategies for the US:

- Be aggressive against China allies to weaken them before attacking China (Biden)

- Try to be friendlier to China allies so they become US allies or at least neutral (Trump)

We are seeing oscillations between those two strategies, because both US factions are playing his cards according to what both see at the end of the tunnel: A new World War with US and China as the main actors, the most probable outcome of imperialism and capitalism crisis. The Trade war is his first act.



I am an independent and Trump supporter. I generally like his shows of strength, but I didn’t like the confrontational nature of this exchange. It lacked diplomacy and respect. Trump yelling things like “you’re gambling with World War 3” was inappropriate and aggressive, especially considering he was a guest. This caused an unprecedented tension between wrokd leaders on live TV and in my opinion has the potential to spiral out of control.

To quote Dean Acheson from Thirteen Days, “Hopefully cooler heads will prevail before we reach the next step.”



Donald Trump doesn't show stregnth, if anything, he's cosplaying as an effeminate she-male with the lifts, the makeup, and the wig.

Donald Trump is not a strong man. He is a weak baby with no self-control and very little knowledge about anything useful.

He also sucks at golf.



> > I generally like his shows of strength

The US has the nuclear trident, the Ohio ICBMs nuclear submarines, the Gerald Ford Class Carriers, the thousands of Minutemen delivering warheads in 20 minutes or less, the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Air Force in the World...

All of that, not to mention the soft power precisely in order to avoid having to pull this sort of BS in the oval office

The US strenght is the system , not the dude in the expensive house on Penn Avenue with the nice plane. He very rarely adds something but can absolutely throw lots of the systemic effort down the sink



I just honestly cannot fathom how you voted for this person and somehow surprised by this. Were you just not paying attention since 2016?


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This type of comment is why users flag submissions.

Thankfully there are many other better comments (and the submission itself is unique).



What an ugly thing to say.


It's a live war with thousands of dead a month. Of course it's ugly.


A lot of people here are angry with Trump about this. But if you watch the full meeting, it's clear Zelensky could have avoided this fiasco.

Just the facts:

1. Zelensky did indeed say thank you, at the beginning of the conference.

2. Zelensky made faces at various points of the initial questions. Mostly in frustration with reporters but also in frustration with Trump

3. Zelensky shook his head when Trump started making some remark he disagreed with. A reporter even followed up on him shaking his head. This was the preamble to the bigger argument.

4. Finally, Zelensky asked Vance a provocative question "what kind of diplomacy are you talking about?" which started the shouting match.

Zelensky and this administration simply do not want the same thing. This kind of altercation was probably inevitable in some fashion, but it should've been done in private. Zelensky now gives no chance for the administration to even save face if they do decide to help more.



Say what?

Zelenskyy's question is perfectly reasonable and not at all aggressive because of the context provided by the history that Zelenskyy has previously explained ad nauseum.

Trump and Vance react aggressively / defensively to it because they don't have an answer that fits their narrative, so the only option they have up their sleeve is aggressive accusation to distract from their lack of a decent answer.

They're in denial of reality.



This wasn't some neighborhood argument. Zelensky should've appealed to their egos in order to get what he wants, which is money and security guarantees.

Now it's even less likely he'll get that.



You might benefit from the WSJ’s perspective: https://www.wsj.com/opinion/putin-wins-the-trump-zelensky-ov...


bad article. I watched the whole meeting. WSJ lies and say Vance started the whole thing. You can obviously see that's not true if you just watch the 46 minute meeting.

Vance said Trump was trying to be diplomatic, which is, in fact, true. Whether true or not, or whether he agrees with diplomacy or not, Zelensky should've moved on. He didn't. he started an argument with his hosts in their own house. Bad move.



Can you point to specific acts and utterances during the meeting, prior to the meltdown, that support your opinion?

It should be noted that WSJ is conservative and owned by News Corp. They have often sided with Trump. They have no reason not to paint his actions in a light most favorable to him.

Finally, it is the responsibility of our heads of state and government to keep as cool a head as possible, even when are challenged. This is a basic requirement of a good manager, let alone the leader of the free world.



Vance: “For four years, the United States of America, we had a president who stood up at press conferences and talked tough about Vladimir Putin, and then Putin invaded Ukraine and destroyed a significant chunk of the country. The path to peace and the path to prosperity is, maybe, engaging in diplomacy. We tried the pathway of Joe Biden, of thumping our chest and pretending that the president of the United States’ words mattered more than the president of the United States’ actions. What makes America a good country is America engaging in diplomacy. That’s what President Trump is doing.”

Zelenskyy: “Can I ask you?”

Vance: “Sure. Yeah.”

Zelenskyy: “OK. So he (Putin) occupied it, our parts, big parts of Ukraine, parts of east and Crimea. So he occupied it in 2014. So during a lot of years — I’m not speaking about just Biden, but those times was (Barack) Obama, then President Obama, then President Trump, then President Biden, now President Trump. And God bless, now, President Trump will stop him. But during 2014, nobody stopped him. He just occupied and took. He killed people. You know what the --"

Trump: “2015?”

Zelenskyy: “2014.”

Trump: “Oh, 2014? I was not here.”

Vance: “That’s exactly right.”

Zelenskyy: “Yes, but during 2014 ‘til 2022, the situation is the same, that people have been dying on the contact line. Nobody stopped him. You know that we had conversations with him, a lot of conversations, my bilateral conversation. And we signed with him, me, like, you, president, in 2019, I signed with him the deal. I signed with him, (French President Emmanuel) Macron and (former German Chancellor Angela) Merkel. We signed ceasefire. Ceasefire. All of them told me that he will never go … But after that, he broke the ceasefire, he killed our people, and he didn’t exchange prisoners. We signed the exchange of prisoners. But he didn’t do it. What kind of diplomacy, JD, you are speaking about? What do you mean?”

----

Then the argument starts. Vance's said nothing aggressive against Zelensky, he was talking to a reporter. He, like I said, said Trump is trying to be diplomatic, which, like I said, is true.

For the 40 minutes before this exchange both sides were obviously in disagreement about certain things, but it was quite respectful, tho Zelensky was obviously frustrated at times.

Also, there's a moment during the argument when Zelensky literally calls Vance suka under his breath watch the clip in this article. [1]

The mainstream media hates Trump and Vance and want to blame them for a cloudy day. But if you just watch the full video you can see it's much more complicated than that.

[1] https://www.marca.com/en/lifestyle/us-news/2025/03/01/67c326...



I just read your citation and it doesn’t sound particularly provocative. Certainly nothing compared to the dressing-down that followed.

If you look at my other comments, you’ll see that I recognize that there is room for good-faith disagreement on the merits of whether we should continue to provide money and weapons to Ukraine, and what stance we should take towards Russia. What I don’t think is negotiable is that we should be courteous toward our guests, even those that challenge us. Politicians should be judged on both their substantive positions and their character. People who support Trump appear all too keen to ignore the latter because they agree with the former. (In the discussion I’ve had in HN challenging Trump supporters in the past 24 hours, not a single one has conceded that maybe he and Vance overreacted.)

Regarding “suka,” I believe there are multiple interpretations of the intent there. A charitable interpretation is that he was expressing frustration and not hurling a personal insult. Regardless, to make it a lynchpin of the argument tilts the scales against justice.



> I just read your citation and it doesn’t sound particularly provocative. Certainly nothing compared to the dressing-down that followed.

Doesn't matter, my point was that Vance did not start the argument, as WSJ claimed. It was yet more misinformation from the media.

> In the discussion I’ve had in HN challenging Trump supporters in the past 24 hours, not a single one has conceded that maybe he and Vance overreacted

Because Trump and Vance don't need anything from Zelensky. Zelensky needs stuff from Trump. They can react however they want because they're not asking for protection from a nuclear power.

> Regardless, to make it a lynchpin of the argument tilts the scales against justice.

Not a lynchpin, it's yet another example of how Zelensky totally dropped the ball because of his desperation.

The simple fact is that it would be better for his country if Zelensky simply kissed the ring and did the fake politician thing.



> my point was that Vance did not start the argument, as WSJ claimed

WSJ did not claim that he “started the argument.” They claimed he initiated the “nosedive.” These are not the same thing. From what I can tell, most people agree with that. At any rate, I don’t think I’m going to persuade you.

> Because Trump and Vance don't need anything from Zelensky.

What has that got to do with whether they overreacted? Do you, in your personal life, berate people from whom you don’t need anything who ask you for a favor? Would you teach your children to do it? Do you manage people this way? A good leader lowers the temperature in the room; he doesn’t escalate it.

> it would be better for his country if Zelensky simply kissed the ring and did the fake politician thing

That’s not America. Or at least it’s not how we have been for the past 200+ years. We have never asked a fellow democratic leader to humiliate themselves to get our support. And I don’t see why we should start now.



This entire comment is just an appeal to emotion. There's no rationality behind it. It reminds me of Iraq/Afghanistan warmongering.

We're talking about hundreds of thousands of dead Ukrainians and the potential for nuclear holocaust and you're worried that "We have never asked a fellow democratic leader to humiliate themselves to get our support"

About a guy that's 6 years into a 5 year term.

Also politicians do the fake thing all the time, in America or otherwise. Zelensky included. It's not humiliation, it's part of the job description.

I could go on and on (ie he's not just asking for a "favor", but billions of dollars, weapons, and human lives), but I'm not sure this will get any more productive. You asked me for a citation as to why your WSJ article sucks, I gave you 2.



This brouhaha is not really about the subject of the request. That’s just context. And people can have good-faith disagreements about whether we should fulfillt Ukraine’s requests. Rather, this debate is ultimately about is how we treat people.

Respectfully, I don’t think you understand that treating people with courtesy is important, even if you perceive them as starting an argument, and even if they irritate you. It’s not just an appeal to emotion; it pays dividends in the end. If you don’t agree with that basic tenet, I don’t know what to tell you.



Avoided what exactly? If the emperor wants to show the world he has no clothes, why stop him?

They've been "negotiating" with Ukraine's invader behind Ukraine's back. Concocting mineral right "deals" that they believe Ukraine _must_ accept; without their involvement and without security guarantees. Voting "against" them in the UN. Making false statements about who invaded who. Etc.

And he's gonna not, rather politely, push back and ask questions instead of getting steamrolled? They started this off with Brian Glenn grilling him over his lack of suite and accusing him of disrespect while they snickered and sneered. Let's not forgot that those "jokes", and this entire presser, are in the context of an ongoing war with nearly 1,000,000 dead and wounded now.

If anything I think Zelensky smoked them out for all of the US public and Europe to see. Why would he avoid that?!



Because he didn't get what he wanted, which is money and security guarantees.

Zelensky and his team wanted this minerals deal to happen because they saw it as a step towards getting Americans on their frontier, which would act as a shield against Russia.

He even wanted to come back to the White House after the fiasco. Trump says no.



That was something everyone needed to see IMHO.

The problem isn't going away, and pretty much all of Europe(all western liberal democracies really) have come out in support since that meeting. They may get what they need yet.



Yeah, we don't know yet, but if Europe steps up, USA will be happy, Trump will be happy, Ukraine will be happy too.

But Europe would never step up if Trump didn't play hardball.

The issue is- who from Europe will step up?

All the European governments are overwhelmingly bureaucratic and boring. No leader amongst them.



I’d say money and security guarantees were never on the table.

My speculation is this - Trump in his head thought he could steam roll “peace in 24h” kind of thing with no pushback like he can do domestically.

He went (behind Ukraine’s back) to talk with ruzzians - they gave a hint that it’s either total Ukraine’s capitulation or they are not interested.

Trump then tried to extort Zelenski into signing capitulation wrapped into “minerals deal”.

I strongly believe Zelenski was hoping to find common ground in the white house, but trump did not give in and understandably, neither Zelenski wanted to stick to original plan as he said it multiple times in a week before.

Then Trump felt fire under his feet - mister “art if the deal” couldn’t strong arm Ukraine into capitulation. How he will look against MAGA? He needs to show he’s “the man”. Bully the man standing up to the modern Mordor, like a bunch of 13 year olds after school.

.. but “it’s great TV”.

EDIT: btw trump could’ve used same leverage against ruzzia. I’d argue ruzzia is not in better spot than Ukraine. Blockade ruzzian shadow fleets, set fire to their war chest, whatever. But trump instead chose to align himself with despotic dictators instead of alies. Trump is really scared of Putin (see Helsinki meeting of 2018), but has personal vendetta against Zelenski for not bending the knee for Biden investigation.



> I strongly believe Zelenski was hoping to find common ground in the white house, but trump did not give in and understandably, neither Zelenski wanted to stick to original plan as he said it multiple times in a week before.

This is simply not true. Zelensky and his cabinet rewrote the initial minerals deal (which was not favorable to them) and wanted it. Zelensky even wanted to come back to the White House to sign it.



thank god we have trump


People complaining about politics on HN: Nobody is asking you to read or post here. Make your own HN where politics are strictly forbidden. Good luck.


Strange to see people supporting Zelensky here.

He has lots of history proving he is no innocent man.

He comes from theatre background, so he loves doing theatrics.

He is cause of this public infighting.

Look at full interview please.

- He is president of one of most corrupt countries, don’t think him as a saint.

- Look at reactions of his own ambassador, you will understand why she is disgusted.

- Trump is a straightforward man. Zelensky very well knew terms of deal before he flew to Washington.

But he came because this drama is what he wanted, for his selfish and sponsored agenda.

This will not end well for him.

Ukrainians need a different leadership.



How your angle of criticism doesn’t apply to Trump?

Felon. Crypto grifter (selling corruption out in the open?). Known adulterer. TV personality - so he “makes good TV” when in front of cameras.

Whole world thought Ukraine will fall in 3 days (just like Putin). Zelenski asked for “bullets and not evacuation”. He stood his ground, united the nation, with kremlin’s assassins trying to constantly get him and he still visits soldiers on the front line regularly. Trump and JD are scared for their lives to even visit Kyiv.



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> Note the date on that video.

Seems to be 2 years after Russia first attacked in 2014. Why does that matter?



Zelensky went there under the pretext of signing the mineral deal, but changed his mind before arriving.

He's trying to pressure Trump and America in general into giving Ukraine NATO membership or security guarantees against Russia.

Sorry, but Ukraine, which is not in NATO and thus not entitled to unconditional defense, is not worth starting WW3 over.

Its sickening watching Zelensky and Europe act like my country is obligated to go into unlimited debt or die on the battlefield to protect them.



> Zelensky went there under the pretext of signing the mineral deal, but changed his mind before arriving.

That's not true. The agreement that both sides drafted was agreed upon and Zelensky planned on signing it.

> Sorry, but Ukraine, which is not in NATO and thus not entitled to unconditional defense, is not worth starting WW3 over.

No one ever said they needed to. What gives you that impression.

> Its sickening watching Zelensky and Europe act like my country is obligated to go into unlimited debt or die on the battlefield to protect them.

To be clear European NATO partners do expect the US to go unlimited debt or die on the battlefield to protect them. It's called NATO. And the only time it's been used so far was for 911 when all NATO countries came to the US's aid after it was attacked.

As for Ukraine. Firstly the US has give much less than the EU. The number Trump keep pushing, $350BN is lies. Ukraine has seen about $70 Billion. Which Zelensky has thanked the US for on may occasions, notably in front of congress. The US owes no one anything, but is it too much to ask that Trump goes hard on the ones who started the war, Russia, who commited war crimes and abducted children, and continue to bomb civilian areas say after day. Instead of shaking down a country and people at their weakest hour for money that was given to it by the previous president?



The linked article doesnt mention the agreement changing. Did it? If it did I can understand him not signing it.

However there was reporting prior to his arrival that he didnt intend to sign it, and considered it something that lower level officials could do. This was after the impression was given that he was coming to the US to sign it, as you admitted was his intention.

> No one ever said they needed to. What gives you that impression

NATO membership for Ukraine is an attempt to call Russia's bluff that they wouldn't continue fighting, or escelate to nuclear weapons if Ukraine were admitted. That is a direct die roll on starting WW3 and Ukraine is not worth it.

> To be clear European NATO partners do expect the US to go unlimited debt or die on the battlefield to protect them. It's called NATO.

I think you understood that I meant for Ukraine. If not, well, it wasn't difficult to see that's what I meant.

Yes, the US should, and I and most Americans do support, upholding Article 5 obligations.

> As for Ukraine. Firstly the US has give much less than the EU.

I hope you're joking.

> The US owes no one anything, but is it too much to ask that Trump goes hard on the ones who started the war, Russia, who...

The west collectively went hard on Russia. We gave Ukraine more of a fighting chance than anyone could possibly hope for. But Russia is winning. We will not escalate to risking WW3. Ukrainians are amazingly tough people and what happened to them is a tragedy, but its in their best interest to stop fighting and dying.



> We will not escalate to risking WW3.

There's zero risk of WW3 due to MAD doctrine, so nobody is dropping nukes. Russia couldn't take on one country, let alone dozens of them in a conventional war, so that's also not happening.

> As for Ukraine. Firstly the US has give much less than the EU.

Definitely "less", though "much" is relative https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/crew8y7pwd5o



Are you familiar with the Budapest memorandum?


It's a bit odd that literally every single top comment is pro-Zelenskyy and anti-White House.

I haven't seen a single thoughtful critique of Zelenskyy or his behavior on HN; it seems very one-sided and strange.

(also interesting that the BBC mispelled his last name, even though they're obviously big fans..)



Perhaps this has a similar explanation as the observation that universities and higher education seem to be politically one-sided.


If you have some constructive criticism to share, I’m all ears. Always in search for more views. Especially now where things are upside down.


Both sides agree that America has provided at least $100 billion and possibly up to a half-trillion in aid and other consideration to Ukraine. That's a fair bit of money!

And, if Zelenskyy is to be believed, it was a "grant", or a gift, which makes Zelenskyy's disrespectful attitude and hubris in the White House even more outrageous.



Possibly there isn’t a critique of his behavior because there isn’t a critique to be made: from a website like hacker news where every reasonable position is usually represented, it should tell you something that this is unanimous.


If you watch the video of the meeting there not very much to criticize re Zelensky's behaviour. I mean he says he's defending his country, Russia invaded it, making agreements with Putin is hard because he keeps breaking them.

I will say in favour of Trump is he is trying to make a deal to stop the fighting and did threaten economic sanctions on Russia.



Trump and Vance’s behavior seems outrageous for leaders of the US. Zelensky certainly didn’t handle everything perfectly, but in comparison he looks like an actual president.


Technically, Zelenskyy instituted martial law and cancelled Ukrainian elections, so although he is the undisputed leader in power in Ukraine, he's not an elected president.

Do actual presidents show up in sweatshirts and insult their benefactors?



During war seems like the right time to institute martial law. Their legal system allows for the pausing of elections during a war.


He’s been very outspoken about why he doesn’t wear suits.

And my god if you think he showed up and insulted Trump, think how anyone would feel if you showed up for a photo op and got tag team bullied by the US president and vp.



Yes, we are all state actors paid by Macron and von der Leyen.

How is what happened today surprising to you? Only if you live in American or Russian disinformation bubbles.



Zelensky needs to step down for the sake of Ukraine and its people. He fails to grasp a critical reality: criticizing Trump is a mistake. Instead, he should focus on praising him—highlighting his intelligence, leadership, and appeal. More importantly, he must recognize that Ukraine’s survival depends on continued US support. Without the US, the country risks ceasing to exist.


Thinking like this is what will take the US further into isolation. Everyone wants to engage and help a nice big brother. No one likes a bully, they will nod and agree when required but in the end America last is the main thing going on everyones mind right now.

The mere unreliability of the government in keeping a narrative and position from one week to the next much less from one administration to the other is enough to alienate the allies. Count in annexation talks, tariff war as a negotiation gun.

If having US help requires kissing the president ass instead of being an ally and sharing of the American ideals, the US as it pretended to be, does not exist anymore.



Zelensky is not responsible for this exchange. Are you honestly suggesting cower to a false autocrat? That is not leadership.


you can't beg someone to come save you, then shit on them in the same conversation ...in what world would anyone expect a warm reception to that?


Zelensky has said he will step down if US provides security guarantees. Source: https://www.cnn.com/2025/02/23/europe/ukraine-zelensky-resig...


…security guarantees which the US does not want to give. So who’s at fault here?


The current situation reflects broader geopolitical tensions rather than simply one side being unwilling to compromise. Your framing of "who's at fault" oversimplifies a complex diplomatic negotiation. They have been at war for 3+ years, it benefits all countries that another future war does not happen again, not just for Ukraine.

Besides Donald Trump is demanding 500 billion dollars in minerals from Ukraine for further support which is far more than their contribution so far of 120 billion dollars.

Source: - https://www.ifw-kiel.de/publications/news/ukraine-support-af...



Dang please let me filter politics


Email requests to mods at [email protected].

You can use the "hide" link to hide specific stories if you like.



And of course it gets flagged 28 minutes later.


This is in the messy HN gray area of "politics that doesn't have a tech angle" and "politics that are extremely indicitive of the times."

EDIT: Looks like dang turned off flags.



Nope, the brigading of every topic which only scrapes at doge/elon/trump is too obvious at that point. I would really like an anti brigading mode with a higher karma threshold. 31 karma is not enough in times were both parties want to silence the other.


I'm not sure I understand you correctly but here's a list of 40 major recent threads on that topic cluster: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43168527


I want to thank @dang for that.

It would be wonderful if we lived in time where we could put on blinders to what is happening around us. The times are getting a little too "interesting" though.



I don't. Not because this isn't an important topic - it is, but because:

> Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, [...] unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. [...] If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic.

This is about politics. It is already being covered on TV news. Is it evidence of an interesting new phenomenon? It's unusual to see that sort of behaviour, sure, but in the Trump era? How surprised are we exactly?

All the comments are the very predictable trench digging. I'd rather see it flagged into oblivion.



I'm so sorry someone is holding a gun to your head and making you read Hacker News.


Sure, I can just ignore those articles, so lets open it up and just have /new as the front page. No harm, right, it definitely won't caause a change in the character of the site or attract a different audience.

Sheesh, think about the other point of view for more than 10 seconds please instead of just reacting.



It should be noted that Biden lost temper with Zelenskyy in late 2022 after pledging more, Zelenskyy started to complain about to getting even more


Ukraine just lost the war. Europe has no weapons to give them. They will now have no money from the USA. Zelensky was stupid and he bit the hand that fed him. Now he must live in shame and watch his country be conquered by Russia. I think Putin will change the name of Ukraine after he wins. What do you think he will call that land?


I'm not so sure about that. Russia's forces are quite depleted and Europe probably isn't quite as hopeless as you suggest.


He'll name it after you, obviously.


> > "You went to campaign with the opposition"

Zelensky is facing opposition, every day ever since 2022, Trump faced his best friend Schumer and a whole bunch of people he laughs with when the cameras are off (or even when they are on considering how he laughed amicably with Obama at Carter's funeral.)

Romney would have never done this, the end of religion and the rise of social media could very well be the thing that ends us for good.



Can someone ELI5 the facts & dynamics at play - without taking a side in this topic?

Seems like POTUS feels used / manipulated, but how & why?

Zelensky seems to disagree with some apparent proposed plan, but what is the plan & why does he disagree?



One possibility is that foreign policy is in fact often driven by domestic policy.

It sounds like this is the sort of reaction that Trump voters might like - both the form and substance. So Trump obliges. The foreign consequences might be of secondary importance to him.

Another possibility is that, we have seen over the past decade or so, illiberal autocrats seem to support and like each other - Orban, Putin, Le Pen in France, now also AfD and Musk. They seem to like the idea of strong leaders such as themselves, carving up the world. This might motivate Trump to side with Putin.

As to the plan: there doesn't really seem to be one, as far as I can tell. Trump implied there's some mineral extraction deal he wanted from Ukraine but unclear how it works. It doesn't promise the one thing Ukraine needs, which is security. Depending on your viewpoint, you might say Trump is extorting mineral rights from Ukraine, or that they want to put some structure on how the mineral wealth will be used to rebuild Ukraine - that's what is discussed at face value. But either way, for any mineral extraction, you need peace, so it's unclear why you would even discuss this while the war is going on.



Not make it political… you’re joking right?


When Russia annexed crimea in 2014 (phase 1 of the current war) the response was sanctions because no one wants WW3.

Russia realized it can keep taking territory if it does so slowly because everyone is afraid of a bigger war and sanctions don't bother the Russian elite that much, so in 2022 they start phase 2 and absorb the additional sanctions.

Trump has a new capitulation deal for Ukraine in hand, possibly pre-approved with Russia, but Zelensky either backed out of accepting the terms or was otherwise surprised about the details and didn't play ball with Trump; possibly because it included him losing a lot of face.



My read on the situation is that Zelensky is willing to make any deal for lasting peace. Meaning, if a deal is made and Russia ignores the ceasefire or continues its invasion in a month or year, what will happen to them? This is literally what he asked because Russia has violated all of the previous agreements in the same way.

What Trump was offering was to take a chunk of their resources for another temporary peace offer. Which as noted above, will almost certainly be violated in the near term by Russia again. So Ukraine is not only back where they started, but also lost a chunk of their resources. Why would Zelensky agree to that?



Yes I agree with you. There is no way to get lasting peace, really, because the US isn't currently willing to start a direct war with Russia but Russia is willing to test the waters.

US and Russia thought Ukraine was running out of steam, I suppose.

Zelensky refusing this offer is an interesting move. It could, of course, just be for show until next week when he does sign a modified deal.



> My read on the situation is that Zelensky is willing to make any deal for lasting peace.

Yep, but Zelensky/Ukraine needs guarantees that the US will enforce the deal. It's also bs that Trump and crew are putting the lack of peace on Ukraine - literally Russian propaganda talking points.



[flagged]



An 85-min video wasn't exactly what I was looking for :)

But appreciate you sharing.



It's WELL worth it in my opinion :) Cheers!


It's good to be exposed to different views, but that guy takes the point he's trying to make too far. He blames everyone but Russia for the war Russia decided to start in 2014 and expand in 2022.

Russia invaded Ukraine. Not the US, not NATO, not the EU. It was Russia. It was their decision. It's very important to remember who did what.



I didn't believe it for a while and frankly the situation our leaders put us in is gut wrenching. Here's a leaked call of Victoria Nuland, secretary of state, picking the next leader of Ukraine. I also added a link to Kissinger discussing this issue 30 years ago.

These demonstrate that this expansionism is real, Ukraine is not truly sovereign, and Russia was forced into a horrendous position where they have to decide between a humanitarian crisis now, or potentially a much bigger humanitarian crisis down the line if all NATO member states engage in war with Russia, a large Nuclear power.

Many blame NATO/USAID/CIA for creating this situation over many decades, even though they knew it would come to this.

Nuland call: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoW75J5bnnE Kissinger: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHm_7T7QNl8

P.S. I should say that I also hate Putin for being a murderous oligarch, so take that however you will. But let's be real, he's been warning against this for decades.



But that's what countries do. They try to support people/sides that are better for them.

I'm not saying this is a nice thing, it's just how the world works. Russia was doing the same in Ukraine by supporting some people/parties and even poisoning politicians. Look at what happens in Belarus, their financial support to far right parties in Europe, etc. Heck, they invaded Ukraine ffs. By your standards, almost no country is sovereign.

NATO states engaging in a war with Russia? As you said, Russia is a nuclear power, no one is going to start a war with them... Do you know what even a single EMP can do to a country? Also, NATO isn't talking about fluid borders, making weekly threats about invading smaller neighboring countries or invading anyone... no one really knew what NATO was for anymore... until Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014 and escalated in 2022.

This started when the president at the time - a Putin friend - decided to cancel a trade agreement with the EU and sign one with Russia instead. I don't know how do you go from protests to the police killing people, but the rest is history. That's when Russia invaded and it went well for them, but it didn't go so well in 2022.

Putin warning for years doesn't remove any responsibility from him or Russia. It also doesn't grant him any power over a country. Russia is responsible for their own actions and while I don't see a problem with pointing out the meddling of other powers, I do think it's wrong to blame everyone but the country that actually started the war.



You might want to look at this 3-year old piece: https://www.unz.com/mwhitney/the-man-who-sold-ukraine/

And after that there was another peace agreement scuppered, allegedly by Boris Johnson. Easy to search for.



And the Minsk Protocol was a thing because... wait for it... Russia invaded Ukraine. This is why it's ridiculous to blame everyone but Russia for Russia's own actions (that's what I tried to point out in my reply above).

The same way a country like the US is responsible for their invasion of Iraq, their actions in Vietnam, etc, Russia is responsible for their invasion of Ukraine. Russia invaded Ukraine, no "buts" or "ifs".

On a side note, I was trying to read that article with an open mind, but there are some red flags that I couldn't ignore. "[...] Russian officials had worked for 8 years on Minsk hammering out terms that would be agreeable to all parties [...]". Russia, as the aggressor - they invaded, occupied, armed, and even fought directly against Ukrainian forces - could never come up with terms that were agreeable to all parties. This and other things should tell you that that's not a very unbiased source.



We don't want WW3. I voted for Kamala and I still DO NOT WANT WW3.


You can choose to not start it, you can't force others not to — peace needs all parties, war only needs one.


Zelensky wouldn't have acted like that if he wasn't in the oval and on national TV. It was a performance in really bad taste, climbing to the moral high ground, and that rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. Zelensky even pissed off Lindsay Graham, huge urkaine supporter in the senate, who looks like he's done with him now.


Lindsay Graham looks more like he pissed himself. So after he saw that bullying and the way the president conducted himself he couldn't be more proud? I've met some ppl, some crazies included, but none that distort reality the way trump and his supporters do. Is there like a crisis in the american education system, what is happening there?


Here's seven minutes of head cam footage of a Russian and Ukrainian soldier fighting to the death with knives, for those who are more upset about Trump than the war itself:

https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/1hrs6oz/clos...



For those interested in getting informed, I strongly recommend listening to John Mearsheimer's thoughts on the crisis in Ukraine (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4 is a great talk on this).

Once you understand the history behind NATO's expansionism, the unfortunate role Ukraine serves as a buffer zone, and the failures of US foreign policy under Obama, you will see how the crisis in Ukraine started. Then, once you factor in Zelenskyy's "non-negotiables", you will see how this exchange, while unprofessional, is not surprising in the slightest.



The problem with Mearsheimer is that he completely ignores the people of Ukraine.

His analysis makes sense if you think people only live in the US and in Russia, and that Ukraine were an object.

But when you realize that Ukrainians are people, and they are choosing democracy and integration with the West -- it's not something the US is instigating -- Mearsheimer's analysis falls apart.

Because ultimately, Mearsheimer doesn't believe Ukrainians should have any choice over their own country. That only Great Powers like Russia and the US get to make choices.



The west has immense influence on Ukrainians, and have pushed for their integration into NATO for decades.

The arguments Mearsheimer is making are not whether Ukrainians should or should not have autonomy. It’s whether they do. And the sad reality is that they don’t, due to their unfortunate situation.



> and have pushed for their integration into NATO for decades

That's not true.

I don't know of any Western governments that have been "pushing" for NATO integration for Ukraine. Certainly not the US. And certainly not "the West" as a whole.

There have been internal debates in the West over whether Ukraine should be admitted to NATO if Ukraine wants to. And way back in 2008, Bush Jr. commented that he supported Ukraine on a path to NATO membership. But that's not "pushing" -- that's allowing in response to a desire from Ukraine.

> The west has immense influence on Ukrainians

I don't know what this even means. Do you think Ukrainians don't think for themselves, or something? That seems awfully paternalistic.



Listen to the talk. A lot of this discussion is pointless because you’re missing information that was presented in the parent.


This argument doesn’t make sense now that Ukraine lost the war, now it’s empirically proven that Ukrainians don’t in fact get to choose and this line of thinking is what led to the war in the first place.


> now that Ukraine lost the war

Ukraine hasn't lost the war, what are you talking about?

Maybe in a couple more years we'll get to the point where that is clear, or even less. Or maybe Russia's economy will collapse (as it is currently teetering) first, and runs out of tanks and the ability to pay soldiers.

Just because US support seems largely gone, doesn't mean European support is. Europeans have been providing more financial support than the US has. And even if the US won't be paying to send US weapons to Ukraine, doesn't mean Europe won't be able to pay the US for those same weapons to send to Ukraine.



"NATO expansionism" is 100% pure, refined Russian propaganda. Countries join NATO because they are afraid of Russia and Ukraine is the proof they are right to be afraid. I don't know why I'm even writing this. Noone with half a brain believes this crap in good faith.


Is NATO not expanding? What are you arguing here exactly?


Russian narrative: Russia is forced to invade countries because they want to join NATO.

Reality: Countries wants to join NATO, the defensive alliance, because Russia repeatedly invades countries.

NATO has expanded because of Russia's invasion of Ukraine, and neither Finland nor Sweden would've joined if Russia didn't attack Ukraine.



It would appear that you're trying to present the two narratives as mutually exclusive. One of the points Mearsheimer is making is that both of these narratives are simulatenously true and the west must appreciate the geopolitics in play to enable foreign policy good enough to deal with this issue.

Besides the point, I'm not sure what any of this has to do with entropyneur's claim that NATO expanding is a "russian propaganda".



Can anyone tell me what the alternative is that would result in less people dying? This needs to stop NOW.


So when your country will be attacked you will give up your lands and your freedoms just for sake of "less people dying"?


In a heartbeat. If two criminal organizations want to fight over some land, that’s none of my business. Also worth noting that in a war, the greatest danger comes from your own government, not the enemy because the enemy will accept your surrender and your own government won’t.


You've grown spoilt on an age of peace. But that kind of abject self-interest is probably the first to leave one in front of the chopping block, or worse, enslavement.


That’s exactly what the Ukrainian government is doing with their men, so you’re right in an ironic way. If I was Ukrainian I would be praying for my government to collapse.


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Are you Ukrainian? Or just another westerner warmongering from a safe distance?


What if the enemy won't allow for your surrender and just want to kill you regardless?


In that case I'd fight of course, but luckily most wars are for land and resources (which don't belong to the people anyways), so it literally doesn't matter who wins, you'll be paying taxes regardless.


Do boundaries matter more than people dying? Genuine question.


Take the chance to freshen up on eastern European history and the absolute dark footprint that russia has cast on it during the centuries. There is a reason why eastern europeans would rather die than be under russian occupation. It's not just about borders, it's about oppression, torture, destruction, and then borders again in a few years. To STILL not see what the russian world is about is truly an exercise in idiocy. Sorry, I had to answer a genuine question with a genuine statement


> why eastern europeans would rather die than be under russian occupation.

From what I gathered, people above a certain age say that their country was better under Soviet Union. Additionally, people say (probably rightly so) that Orbán is pro-Putin. Why is it the case?



> From what I gathered, people above a certain age say that their country was better under Soviet Union.

Rather a minority of people above a certain age. Like, these days you can go to the shop and buy a banana. Other things, too. I still remember the queues, at the end of which... there was nothing.



Well, from what I gathered, people think the Earth is flat. And I think the way I gathered that data is considerably less creative than the way you did if you managed to come up with that inane conclusion.

In fact, you're so wrong that we're no longer in the realm of having opinions. You're objectively wrong. Look up comparisons of the economic growth of nations to the west of the Berlin Wall and to its east. Germany's alone would suffice, but have at it.

And then you think bringing up outliers means anything... If chess is so difficult why is Magnus Carlsen so good at it? Therefore, chess is an easy game, gotcha. yawn



Visit a town in Eastern Europe and ask around. bald and bankrupt did, for example.

But if you consider the majority of the elderly in villages as outliers, then have at it.

It does not change the fact that many of them said that life was better in Soviet Union.

How am I objectively wrong? All I claimed was that some people preferred their life in Soviet Union. I think you read too much into it.



>From what I gathered, people above a certain age say that their country was better under Soviet Union

Assuming this is true, it's because these are soviet leftovers who had a low education, were indoctrinated from a young age, and lived during the dream phase where you were told what to do, where to live, etc. Then came the bill when everything collapsed because this didn't work. I can make everybody happy tomorrow by emptying the state coffers and institutionalizing national NEETDOM, can't promise our happiness will last long but we can try! And regardless of what they think, it was shit.

Edit: about "why is Orban pro-putin?", this is a joke right?



> about "why is Orban pro-putin?", this is a joke right?

No, genuine question, he is Eastern European. Let us go further, they claim Hungary is pro-Russian, how come?



No, I'd rather not spend my time on what seems to be a promising exercise in moving the goalpost. Not sure I'd classify hungary as eastern European (I was mostly referring to slavs) but sure you can find at least a pro russian guy among eastern europeans, especially dictator ones.


So you actually have no answer to why you believe Orbán, or even the people (allegedly) of Hungary pro-Putin?


Depends on specific boundaries, but literally all of human history is about fighting for people's rights to hold one boundary or another


By boundaries I am referring to the geographical ones, might not be the best term.

Like, if Ukraine let Russia have specific regions and it meant millions of people not dying, would people go for it?



So just borders?

In the end, it’s the people who fight that determine if the thing they are fighting for is worth their lives. Dying for some lines on the map sounds bad, but if it were only lines on the map, then the people probably wouldn't choose to die for them, would they?

Nobody wants to die, but if someone is ready to give up their life for some cause, then who are you to tell them they can't?

It's the fate of Ukrainians that is at stake and its the Ukrainians that determine if changing that fate is worth the costs of their lives.



I am not going to tell them they can't, they can do as they see fit, of course.

It is a very subjective topic, however. I might save my family even if it meant the death of hundreds of people, or not, it is a moral dilemma for sure. I do not have an answer.

Some people may believe "less people dying" is always favorable.



Probably yes, but he premise is wrong. You know P being a villain and all that.


Which is more important to you: Justice or an absence of violence?

Sometimes, it's simply not possible to have both.

Do you truly expect Ukraine to just roll over?



Seems like most people who have replied to my comments want justice over saving millions of people's life. Fine by me, but the assumed and voiced moral superiority is baffling.


> Fine by me, but the assumed and voiced moral superiority is baffling.

Can you genuinely not imagine being under the thumb of a dictator who sends you off to die?

Elsewhere in this thread you're responding to me as if you don't even seem to accept that this can occur despite the fact that it already has.



Zelensky did the same. Pick a side if you want. I did not.


No, Zelensky has not done "the same".

To have done "the same", he would have needed to force Russian citizens living in occupied Kursk to pick up guns and throw their lives away fighting other Russians. Which he didn't.

Russia did force people from occupied territories to fight in Ukraine.



You are taking a side though. Your position that absence of violence is more important than justice means that you expect Zelensky to just roll over and give Russia what it wants, which basically means a complete annexation of Ukraine.

You accused others with having a voice of moral superiority, but your "I did not pick a side" is just that.

There are only two possible outcomes to this war. Either Ukraine still exists as a sovereign nation, or it doesn't. The first will require continued fighting. There is no possibility for Ukraine to remain sovereign without violently kicking Russia out of its land.

Neutrality only supports aggressors.



I know about the paradox of tolerance.

What you described is black and white thinking, however, and there is much more to it than just "either Russia wins or does not win", pretty sure there can be a compromise, you know, a middle path, that is good enough for both parties and consequently there will be less deaths.

If people want to die for justice, so be it. Up to them, but:

Would you talk about suicide bombers in the same vain though?



> I know about the paradox of tolerance.

Do you?

Because Russia is the invader. It lied about the troop movements being a prelude to invasion. It lied about the reasons for invading. It has committed, and continues to commit, war crimes. It has made nuclear threats to dissuade others from helping Ukraine defend itself. It has threatened Finland for daring to join NATO.

> pretty sure there can be a compromise

Why do you think this?

Russia can stop their unlawful invasion of a sovereign country any time they want. That they have not done so ought to be a QED that they don't want to stop.

> Would you talk about suicide bombers in the same vain though?

Would you talk about the invasion of your own country in the same vein?

I don't know where you live. USA? Imagine Russia had in 2014 annexed Alaska the way they've annexed Crimea, and in 2022 started trying the same on the states of Washington and Montana, and briefly had control of the I-90 as far as Chicago before being repelled.

If that happened, would you say "pretty sure there can be a compromise"?

The "compromise" Zelenskyy is offering Putin is: "get out of my country that you've illegally occupied, and I won't keep shooting drones into your oil refineries".

The "compromise" Putin is offering Zelenskyy is: "Be our puppet or die".

Nothing about Russian state behaviour looks like they're willing to behave. Not the military action, not the broad-daylight assassinations (not only in Ukraine, but also in Germany and the UK and Turkey), certainly not the war crimes.

Right now, the Russian government is acting, and talking, as if Ukraine isn't even a real country.



Would you have protected Iraq against its invasion by the West, knowing it was based on lies and led to massive destruction, loss of life, and destabilization? What about Lebanon right now, with Israel's ongoing actions - shouldn't we ask the same question about justice and sovereignty there, too? And here's another tough one: would you speak about suicide bombers the same way? They often claim they're acting for justice - perhaps not your justice, but justice nonetheless. Does that justify their actions, or do we make distinctions between subjective and objective justice? Just because someone believes their actions are justified doesn't mean they're morally acceptable.

In summary, the question of whether boundaries or human lives matter more is a complex one. The dilemma is whether compromising sovereignty for the sake of peace or minimizing deaths is truly just, or if it's more just to stand firm for a nation's right to self-determination - even at the cost of more suffering. The comparison to Iraq, Lebanon, and suicide bombers underscores how subjective "justice" can be. What one side believes to be justice doesn't always align with what is objectively right according to international law or human rights principles (more about it later).

The core issue here is how we define justice in conflict situations: is it about preserving borders and sovereignty, or about protecting human lives? It's a deeper, more nuanced question that forces us to reflect on the values we prioritize in these difficult circumstances.



Ask the people who tried to scale the Berlin wall before the collapse of the Iron Curtain. Oh, you can't, because they're dead. Shot. Because they were on the wrong side of the boundary.


Well, that is people dying. I personally want less people dying, by whatever means necessary.


Short term, or medium term?

Because short term survival means surrender, followed by the medium term getting conscripted by Putin as cannon fodder to go after the next country.



> getting conscripted by Putin as cannon fodder to go after the next country.

Is it not just speculation? Does it have any merits? Would he do it? What makes you think that it is going to happen, that he wants to do it? Could he actually attempt to do it?



> Is it not just speculation? Does it have any merits? Would he do it? What makes you think that it is going to happen, that he wants to do it? Could he actually attempt to do it?

Having already done it three times:

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Chechen_War

2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War

3. https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/12/20/russia-forces-ukrainians...



There are a lot of things in place that prevents Putin from doing what you think he wants.


He is currently actively doing this with the Ukranian people in the regions of Ukraine he has annexed.

What is currently limiting him from going further is, specifically, the armed forces of Ukraine.



I am not talking about that.

I am referring to NATO, UN, ICC, Amnesty International & Human Rights Organizations, global backslash, fear of uncontrollable consequences (wrt. current allies like China and India, as they are Russia's key trade partners).

So there are those deterrents: legal charges, sanctions, political pressure, military retaliation, geopolitical fallout, and internal resistance within Russia itself.

Even Russian oligarchs and elites might resist, fearing total international isolation.

There are many reasons to not be afraid of what we might believe Putin would do ("getting conscripted by Putin as cannon fodder to go after the next country" and so forth).



> I am referring to NATO

NATO only applies if they go specifically for a NATO country — which is why Ukraine wants into NATO in the first place, and why the invasion of Ukraine got Finland to join in a hurry. Also this is only a risk while NATO continues to still exist, which is threatened both because Trump has explicitly said: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-68266447

And: https://apnews.com/article/trump-biden-offshore-drilling-gul...

And: https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/article/former-australian-pm...

But also Russia is starting to prepare for direct NATO confrontation anyway: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/putin-accuses-west-push...

> UN

Russia is on the permanent security council, they have a veto: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permanent_members_of_the_Unite...

> ICC

Already has arrest warrants for them, can't escalate further: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court_a...

> Amnesty International & Human Rights Organizations, global backslash, fear of uncontrollable consequences (wrt. current allies like China and India, they are Russia's key trade partners).

None of this stopped them so far, why would it start?

Especially on trade: Russia is a petrostate, their main export is fuel, the invasion of Ukraine by itself sped up the European transition away from fossil fuels in general and their fossil fuels in particular, and everyone Russia does business with — including "allies", though that's too strong a word for their relationship with India — has every reason to take advantage of the price ceiling to get discounts even when they don't explicitly take part in the actual ceiling itself: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Russian_crude_oil_price_c...

> There are many reasons to not be afraid of what we might believe Putin would do ("getting conscripted by Putin as cannon fodder to go after the next country" and so forth).

Why are you ignoring the evidence that this has already happened three times?

Why do you insist on treating this as a hypothetical?

https://xkcd.com/242/



Fewer


Game theory would like to have a word. If I'm Putin and I know you will not defend your country if threatened, what's to stop me from annexing it? And then the whole world? After all, we don't want people to die in wars. It's much better for them to die in concentration camps.


There are a LOT of things preventing Putin from doing what he SUPPOSEDLY wants, but regardless, you are not Putin, you do not know what he wants or would do. Putin cannot simply just invade countries at whim, assuming he wants to do that.


It's not "boundaries".

It's about living in a democracy.

Is it worth dying to ensure your children live in a democracy where they have control over their future?

Or is it better to allow a dictatorship like Russia to engulf your country, and your children grow up under authoritarianism?

It's not boundaries as much as an invading political system you despise.



I was referring to those specific territories Russia claimed to want.


Russia wants all of Ukraine. They tried to invade Kyiv.

So I'm talking about those specific territories -- all of Ukraine.

You don't really think that giving up the territory Russia has taken already is going to stop Russia from advancing further?



Why did they try to invade Kyiv exactly? To take it?

> You don't really think that giving up the territory Russia has taken already is going to stop Russia from advancing further?

I honestly do not know. If they do, then it requires military intervention.



> Why did they try to invade Kyiv exactly? To take it?

Yes.

> If they do, then it requires military intervention.

Yes. That is the military intervention that Ukraine is continuing to take against Russia currently.

Does it all make sense now? Why Ukraine shouldn't just let itself be invaded, in order to avoid deaths?



But does it actually avoid deaths though? One of them will have to stop, if neither does, there will be more bloodshed, that is a given, right? If Putin does not stop, shouldn't Zelensky do?


So do you think the world should have let Hitler take it over in WWII? Not just Europe, but an empire stretching continents?

People are willing to fight for freedom, even if they might die in the process.

By your logic, you're saying everyone should just surrender to violent bullies. Most people don't think that kind of subjugation is a life worth living -- not if they can help it.



No, that is not my logic, and no, I do not believe the world should have let Hitler take over either.


OK, so now do you understand why Ukraine is resisting then?

Because when you wrote:

> One of them will have to stop, if neither does, there will be more bloodshed, that is a given, right? If Putin does not stop, shouldn't Zelensky do?

You can say in WWII, if Hitler does not stop, then shouldn't Churchill/FDR/etc. stop to avoid more bloodshed?

It's the same thing. It's an expansionist European land grab by a dictator. Just take how you understand WWII and apply it to this conflict.



I understand, but if Hitler kills people, or would kill people, that may be considered bloodshed, even more so.

So stopping Hitler through whatever means necessary results in less deaths, right? That was my initial point: less deaths.



OK, so imagine Hitler didn't have death camps, but otherwise was the same. Invading all of Europe, for democracies to fall to fascism. And then he'd start invading the rest of the world.

You think that would have been preferred then? You would prefer that today we would live under a fascist Third Reich, instead of democracies, so that we could have saved the lives of those who fought in WWII?

I mean, you're free to prefer that. But everyone who fought did it because they thought it was worth it to die, to save democracy so they and their children and their children's children wouldn't have to live under fascist rulers from another nation.

Maybe you don't think Ukranians should fight. But Ukranians clearly believe it's worth it. And people in the country honor those who die for it. And I do too.



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You made an account just to insult me? Judging by your comments, it seems like you are fueled by rage, chill.


A privileged question that can only come from someone who has never been truly threatened. Bravo, you're the reason why everyone hates tech companies.


What? This makes no sense, and your baseless assumptions add nothing. Perhaps you misunderstood my question.


My country had a coup in 2014 in order to install a leader friendly to US intel agencies. "Freedoms" were already flimsy.


Who led the coup in "your" country?


Absolutely yes


skill issue


Really? Even if that would result with your new living conditions to be literally North Korea style or the worst of islamic terrorist state?


Have you spoken to any Moscovites about living standards recently? Like this is so stupid. I would not trade for Russia's brutal treatment of dissidents but we don't exactly have a great record on that front in Western countries…


You know what hypothetical question is?


[flagged]



What's the point of hypethotical then?


There is no alternative. Europe tried to peacefully coexist with Germany in the 1930s. Standing up to imperialist dictators is the least bloody option.


And you stop it now - no security guarantees for Ukraine - and more people will die in few years when Russia strikes back, having rearmed herself.


Russia must be made to kneel, just as Germany and Japan had to in WW2.

Any other "peace treaty" will only lead to Russia rebuilding and attacking again, leading to yet another war, having learned the important lesson that aggression works.

We want it to stop NOW, but that's wishful thinking just as world peace is. The sooner you internalize that, the better.



Deterrence works. That's why the cold war is remembered as the cold war and not the hot war. Zelensky knows this while Trump is publicly taking all leverage (NATO membership, security guaranties) off the table while the Russians have not even started negotiating - and why would they? Trump is doing all their work for them


Sure - moving a few dozen nuclear warheads to Kiev and telling Russia "Kiev has nukes now, make one step further into Ukraine and we'll make sure they'll hit the Kremlin by end of day today".

And then tell Putin "hey Putain, feel free to call our bluff".



Putin: "Thanks for heads up as I left Kremlin. Also don't mind the ICBM to Washington and NYC"

Nuclear war couldn't be won.



I don't know. People used to say during the Cold War that deterrence works. If it doesn't work, a nuclear war is unavoidable anyway.


Might as well get it over with at that point. If Putin does decide to strike first, yeah, Washington or NYC gets hit. OK. We'll live. Russia will be flattened by the entire world's nukes at that point, and the likes of China will be inclined to join in on the fun and take a whole bunch of Russian land.


Washington or NYC gets hit. OK. We'll live.

Clearly, you're unfamiliar with the prosecution of a nuclear conflict.

I wouldn't count on NYC being the only place hit. In fact, I wouldn't count on any of our port cities and even any mainland military infrastructure surviving the initial strike. Additionally, energy infrastructure would be severely crippled. None of that even counts the disruption to electronics and communication wrought by the EMP blasts. And no, none of it's coming back. I can assure any Russian readers that the same would happen to you in a nuclear exchange with us. The initial strikes would be unfortunate for europe, as I think they would likely fare the worst.

But as bad off as we'd all be, the worst would be yet to come. The secondary strikes are where the knockout blows would be dealt.

Nuclear war, (any war really), is raw and nasty. Don't expect "limited" strikes. By your own admission, we would send a massive retaliatory strike to Russia. It defies logic for them to send a limited strike our way. That's not how nuclear war works.



> Can anyone tell me what the alternative is that would result in less people dying? This needs to stop NOW.

There's a logical flaw in what you are saying. Forcing Ukraine to accept a truce right now, without any security guarantees will result in a LOT MORE deaths. Russia will re-arm, using their oil and gas money, and in a year finish the job. Right now, Ukraine can hang on, but if Russia gets its shit together during a truce it's game over.

What could happen is that they negotiates a truce with security guarantees from the US or at the very least a no-fly zone. But Trump doesn't want that, Trump doesn't want to do anything, he want mineral rights to offset the cost of the last president gave Ukraine (Not $350 bn, that number is lies, its ~$70bn), asking for $400bn rare earths and other metals. I can only assume he will only give new weapons under the same terms. A shameful shakedown. And even if Ukraine agrees to this, Trump has said he won't enforce a no-fly zone or give a security guarantee.

The best thing Trump and the US can do from now on is just to not get involved in teh war. I can see Trump supporting Putin out of spite.



Europe needs to deploy troops to Ukraine to secure the current border.

No other way from stoping Putin.



Right. Just when America pulls back, Europe should escalate. Awesome!

/s

Right now Europe needs time to build. The calculus has radically changed. They need to build out in a fashion that is massive, but also both quick and quiet. This situation is too serious for rash action. Especially where victory is not guaranteed.



America is pulling back because it has lost its moral compass. Republican leadership has made it inconceivable to many Americans that you can have Win-Win situations internationally. At least that is the only explanation which explains for me what is happening.

Europe is already in this war and it is costing us money and European lives if we want or not.



Regime change in Russia.

Putin is the one who started it, and he can stop it any time.

Anyone else can only get the peace of surrendering to a violent dictator willing to conquor.



I don't mean to rain on your parade, but humor me for a second.

Let's say that Putin is not the only person in Russian leadership who supports war with Ukraine. What then? I mean we get rid of Putin, and the next guy is worse.

I know. I know. That would never happen in a million years. But humor me. What then? Do we have a plan for "we took out Putin and it didn't change anything"?

Or is this whole thing just a fly by the seat of the pants kind of thing?



> I don't mean to rain on your parade, but humor me for a second.

Feel free, this is no parade for me. And if anyone is taking me seriously*, they need serious alternatives to my beliefs.

* which would be their first mistake, as I'm a software engineer not a geopolitical military analyst

> I mean we get rid of Putin, and the next guy is worse

What would "worse" look like?

Putin is already at war, has a massive propaganda network and fake elections, yet still feels unable to have another round of mobilisation due to the internal political fallout.

Putin is already threatening nuclear weapons, has already updated doctrine — "The doctrine now says an attack from a non-nuclear state, if backed by a nuclear power, will be treated as a joint assault on Russia." - https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cj4v0rey0jzo

The only way to be worse, is to actually use them.



The only way to be worse, is to actually use them.

Then you're starting to see my point.



Would you rather surrender salami style, or the whole bratwurst?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yg-UqIIvang

Putin is already a threat, without actually using the weapons.



If the history books are any good indicator, Putin going away tomorrow won't really change anything, the problem has always been with Russia as a whole, not just its leader - ask most of the EU countries that have some historical beef with them.


Why did EU countries always have some historical beef with Russia?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Curtain for one.

Cold war was rather less theoretical in Europe than in the USA. The USA got to argue about missile gaps and sending conscripts to prevent domino effects; we got to watch troops and tanks doing maneuvers by shared land borders they themselves had fortified.

A forum like HN will be familiar with the misdeeds of the CIA/NSA/Five Eyes; much of Europe with the KGB/Stasi/ etc. from allied/puppet states.

Friends in the UK got married, the father of the bride talked about fleeing torture in (communist) Poland. The current prime minister of Poland was part of the movement that overthrew communist rule, leading to his own arrest: https://www.gov.pl/web/primeminister/donald-tusk

Russia gets the blame for pulling everyone's strings in the cold war.



Finland: got invaded, Russians tried to overrun the entire country and install a puppet government, but eventually managed to capture only a part of Finland that they have not returned to this day. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War

Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania: tried to appease Russians, still got invaded, governments overthrown, puppets installed as replacements, a large part of the local population was deported to Siberian labor camps in multiple mass actions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/June_deportation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Priboi This was followed by a 50-year military occupation that saw severe violations of human rights, suppression of national identity, and developmental retardation that left these countries severely behind of their free counterparts.

Poland: Russians colluded with Hitler and invaded from both the west and the east in September 1939. Germans started burning Jews in ovens, Russians set up an industrial operation to murder Polish politicans, lawyers, officers and other national leaders by tens of thousands. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre Hundreds of thousands were murdered in total and 1.5 million deported to Siberia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_repressions_of_Polish_c... In Poland too, Russians installed a dictatorship at the end of WWII that severely held the country back until the 1990s.

The rest of the journey southward on the European map remains homework for you to complete.

After that, we can philosophize why no one likes Russians, if that still remains unclear.



Those countries all were allied (or were going to side with) with nazi Germany, so they are all square.

But even regardless of wars - there was always some degree of russophobia without any good reasons. Maybe it's just a fear of a big neighboring country, I don't know.

As for Katyn - you are right, it was indeed a crime by USSR's Stalin and it's a shame USSR hasn't admitted to that crime until as late as 1990.

Thank you for that reply.



All square? What is that supposed to mean?

Also, the poster above gave you actual examples that you're handwaving as "regardless of wars" and then go on to say "russophobia without any good reasons"?

Please don't try to wash this over as "USSR" or blame it on Stalin. It's called Russia now and Putin is in charge, but the fundamentals haven't changed, they're still russifying captured territory by displacing local people and they still have no regard for basic human rights.



Hahaha, do you honestly believe that Putin has any interest in stopping?

This isn’t the first time Putin has invaded another country, had the west capitulate for “peace”, then two years later Putin invades somewhere else.

Hell, Putin originally invade Ukraine and annexed Crimea. Every one made “pease” with Putin, and few years later he invades the rest of Ukraine. If Trump sell out Ukraine now, it might end the “official” war, but there will be endless civil/insurgency warfare in Ukraine for decades. The Ukraine’s have zero interest in allowing a foreign country simply take their land without a fight.



Yeah, at the end of the day its hard to agree with the language and demeanor of the administration, but I struggle to disagree with the outcome. What are Zelensky's aims? To secure additional funding for their war machine? If so: I don't see how that benefits anyone; certainly not the Ukrainian people. If the goal is to secure more favorable peace terms, which I do believe is a laudable goal, then I fail to understand why he approached this conversation the way he did. Insinuating that the Trump administration had aligned with Russia, regardless of its validity, is not the way to accomplish this.


A ceasefire without security guarantees is just a temporary pause for russia to rearm and continue on. None of the justifications for russia's invasion have changed, and this would mean the US will roll over for anything.


Sure; so maybe his focus should be on attaining those security guarantees. If not from the United States, then from other countries; is the United States the only World Police on the globe? Why is the Moral Onus on the United States to be the only ones willing to say "Yeah if you invade Ukraine again we'll put boots on the ground"; why isn't anyone asking Germany, or the UK, or Poland, to make those some guarantees to Ukraine? I mean, sure, there's genuine concerns about Article 5 if anyone in NATO makes those guarantees, I don't know what the impact of that would be, but looking past that for a second: Its utterly insane to me how much of this conversation involves placing some kind of Moral Responsibility on a country half the world away from the conflict.


> and this would mean the US will roll over for anything.

This is a war between Ukraine and Russia, not the US. Nobody should want western powers to enter this war because of the potential consequences. But if western powers make security guarantees, isn't that what you risk?



What exactly do you think the outcome is? Just because Trump is selling out Ukraine to Putin, doesn’t mean the Ukraines are just going to lie down and take it.

What are Zelensky’s aims, they’re pretty damn obvious, do everything in his power to remove a foreign aggressor from Ukrainian land. Why would expect people who have been invaded to not defend their country and their land?



I generally expect that a country's leader should do everything in their power to defend their country, land, and people, as you say. Of course, what we're talking about here is: Zelenskyy's power is not infinite, no one's is, and today he spoke with an administration that is far more realistic and desirable of peace than the previous one. My question was: What was Zelenskyy's aim in speaking to the administration today; not what were his general aims.

Look: I do not believe the world will be a more peaceful and prosperous place if America continues the path of providing billions of dollars in weapons and military aid to the Ukraine war effort. My question to others is: Do you believe I'm wrong in this assessment, and that the world will be more peaceful and more prosperous if we continue funding this war? Or, is it that: Do you believe that Peace and Prosperity are not Generally Good things we should strive to achieve?

Is the aim to negotiate for peace, and in that negotiation ensure Russia gets nothing? If so, do you believe that to be a realistic thing Ukraine can ask for right now? Even if the United States is brokering the negotiation, and wants this for Ukraine, what can the United States bring to the table to help make it happen? Is your suggestion that the United States go so-far as to guarantee Ukraine's security through direct military intervention?

That's where my brain is at on this; its a horrible situation, but if the goal we're optimizing toward is Peace and Prosperity, and I believe those goals to be laudable, and if we admit that the United States is not All Powerful (as proven by our billions in military aid up to this point not as of yet Increasing Peace and Prosperity in the region): What options does the United States have left to help Ukraine? Do you want to lace up your boots and go to war for them? Or, is it just, do you want to send them another hundred billion in military aid, so the war can continue in a stalemate for another three years?



You seem to be under the impression that a long lasting negotiated peace is possible with Russia. Remember, Russia started this war, and did so by breaking its previous negotiated peace with Ukraine.

If you take the view that “Peace and Prosperity” can only be achieved by surrender, the. Putin will simply do what he’s always done. Invade neighbouring countries then sue of “peace”, and will keep doing that until he’s claimed the entire of Europe. And all of Europe will live under whatever “Peace and Prosperity” Putin deems we’re allowed.

And yes, funding this war will ultimately result in a longer, better peace, and greater prosperity, by making it clear to Putin that he can’t just take what he wants. Otherwise we might as capitulate now and give Putin his every demand, regardless of how absurd it is, because apparently “Peace and Prosperity” means handing everything over to the most violent individual in the room.



You assume that Putin wants a cease fire or peace. But he doesn't.

Zelenskies aim is for his country not to be conquered. There are no open demands from Russia to satisfy.



Trump just stated to the media before departing JBA that Putin has communicated a desire for peace to him. Granted: its possible we did not know that before literally just twenty minutes ago, and we obviously don't know the framework that peace will happen under, and that absolutely does matter.


I see many, understandably, comments that empathise with president Zelenski.

It is though to come to such meetings when the other party (the Trump administration) genuinely does neither care nor likes you.

That being said, I'm gonna point out Zelenski himself.

1) You can't be sitting in the oval office and tell the president of one of the most belligerent and bloodiest countries in the world "you cannot understand how it is to defend yourself, you're surrounded by oceans on both sides". If there is one thing that you should never, ever do, is question America's willingness to pick a fight. That was what triggered hugely Trump (go check the video). That was a terrible mistake, directed to the bulliest president of the bulliest country in the planet, a gigantic blunder on its part.

2) I feel for Zelenski, but after what happened today, his political career is over, that's what pundits and political analysts all over eastern Europe are saying (they are much more critical of Zelenski's naivety than Trump's behavior). Former prime minister of Poland Leszek Miller has been very critical and said Zelenski came very unprepared and leaves in a worse position.

He quits the White House in a critical situation and if Ukraine wants to get some kind of leverage it will have to necessarily consider a change of leadership. Zelenski's stance has been terrific in the first years of war, but now he's alone and unable to get most of what he can for Ukraine.



> If there is one thing that you should never, ever do, is question America's willingness to peak a fight.

But the choose to fight and it’s not on their home ground. Totally different situation. You can’t just leave if you begin to lose like in Vietnam and Afghanistan.

They never faced the win or lose everything situation since their independence.



This is known to be a contributing factor as to why 9/11 had such a dramatical cultural impact.


But you don't go say it to the US President, least of all Trump, in front of cameras!


You're taken "you're surrounded by oceans on both sides" the wrong way. Zelensky was quoting Trump from just minutes before, where he himself said something along the lines of "we're going to be fine, there's an ocean between us and europe. no matter what happens, we're going to be fine". How do you justify saying something that irresponsible to a leader of an allied nation that is currently defending itself against an autocrat invasion?


Zelenskyy: A lot of questions. Let's start from the beginning. First of all, during the war, everybody has problems, even you, but you have a nice ocean and but don't feel now, but you will feel it in the future.

Trump: You don't know that.

Zelenskyy: God bless, you will not have a war...

So, it is what it is, and you need to be careful of what you say when dealing with people like Trump, especially in front of the cameras.



Leszek Miller is entitled to his opinion, but it’s not representative of what’s being said in Poland. Whether Zelenski gets to keep his job is for Ukrainians to decide.


Agree. Contrary to many comments here, I believe this was a disaster meeting for Zelenski personally, and for his political future.

This was a photo op opportunity. His job there was to make Trump look good, so he could secure additional support and funds. He was there to stroke Trump's ego for the media, likely join Trump on the lets-play-the-tough-guy pushing Europe to open the wallet, and maybe, just maybe, lightly mention that ceasefire is a good first step, but it alone is not enough.

Instead the tried to pick a fight with the bulliest of bullies, in their home turf, in front of a hundred journalists recording every second. You don't try to be a smartypants and teach history to the guy who got elected in rewriting history (see them debating the who-did-what in 2015-2016).

I think this was a colossal mistake in the 3D chess of this invasion.

Now he gave all the reasons for Trump to wash their hands of any responsibility, and let Europe fix the mess.

The only thing that may still keep Trump engaged is Trump's own ego. He was seeing this as an opportunity to go in the history books as the biggest peace dealmaker, and potentially a Nobel Peace prize winner. Now.. not so much.



> That was what triggered hugely Trump (go check the video).

That wasn't what triggered Trump in that moment.

What triggered Trump in that moment was being told a prediction about the future with an imperative sentence.

Trump viewed that as a personal command and his narcissistic personality cannot handle that.



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Old video, seen it, has some more or less valid takes, but at the end of the day it's been Russia that attacked Ukraine.

And pundits and scholars about this being geopolitical chess games in eastern Europe are largely, albeit not completely, mistaken. This has always been about Putin's fear of democracy in Russia and him losing the grip in his own country. It is no coincidence that Russia attacked Ukraine a month after the unrest in Kazakhstan[1], few weeks after Russian military helped crush it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Kazakh_unrest



Try entering Mexico in a military pact with China/Russia and watch what happens.


All President Zelensky had to do was say "thanks for your support" and have the hard conversations behind closed doors. Instead he tried to use high-pressure negotiating tactics in front of the cameras, on Donald Trump of all people. This was clearly a mistake, and now his diplomatic incompetence and lack of basic gratitude and respect will cost Zelensky and his country dearly.


If you can’t tolerate emotional and tactical appeals from a foreign leader for support in a public meeting without falling apart and castigating them, you’re probably not fit to lead our country. This sort of behavior doesn’t befit a parent or even a middle manager, let alone the leader of the free world.


He did the same to Biden privately: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna54592


Absolutely correct, huge blunder on Zelensky's part, even though many here are angry with Trump


It's upsetting to see all the globalist cucks in this community. Nobody has balls anymore.


Could you please stop posting unsubstantive comments and flamebait? You've unfortunately been doing it repeatedly. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for.

Normally we'd just ban an account that has been posting like this: https://news.ycombinator.com/posts?id=jumpman_miya, but your account is 7 years old and I don't want to ban it without at least giving you a chance!

If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.



Probably told him that since he and his government cannot account for tens of billions of dollars that the US gave them, and that we have evidence that Ukraine is selling arms to Mexican cartels (designated terrorist organizations), that we would no longer tolerate our relationship, as is.

Somehow all of the whiny commenters on here forget that DJT's first administration provided considerable CIA/Tier1 training and resources to the Ukrainian military. Then Russia invaded while Biden was president. They didn't invade on Trump's watch. They invaded while Biden was running(?) our country. Now, yet again, Trump has to go clean up the mess -- just like he did after Obama gave Putin the flexibility to invade Ukraine after his win in the 2012 election.



It’s worth watching the full clip to appreciate how this starts with Zelensky undermining the peace process by blaming Russia right after Trump just answered by saying blame isn’t productive and Zelensky did it by directly challenging JD Vance's statement previous to the clip. [1] I would suggest changing the link in the article to the full length video clip because I couldn’t fault someone for assuming that with the current state of US Europe relations that the BBC is biased towards selective editing.

Obviously Trump & JD did not handle that well and embarrassed anyone that believes in the value of international diplomacy.

For some more backstory on Zelensky's disposition you can listen to Lex Friedman's take. He went to Ukraine to interview him with the only goal of making peace more likely and couldn't get Zelensky to move an inch in that direction during their discussion. He believes that Zelensky is an amazing leader in many respects, but poorly equipped (mentally) to make peace. [2]

[1] https://youtu.be/uqOOOR7Kr-s?si=5lbj-fGWTZzYMVwB [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4T2EL8hkwGE



What peace process? This was a minerals deal. No peace was being brokered here. Not even solid assurances. https://www.reuters.com/markets/deals/framework-agreement-us...

> WHEREAS the United States of America has provided significant financial and material support to Ukraine since Russia’s full-scale invasion of Ukraine in February 2022;



It's not being reported on much, but they have moved towards normalizing diplomatic relations and Russia and the US are negotiating the outline of the deal now. Here is a recent video with John Mearsheimer (a foreign policy expert) giving commentary on recent developments. [1] John Mearsheimer was (and still is) completely baffled by the mineral deal which as you point out seems to be a distraction.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1lJBv76J5g&t=15s



From HN guidelines:

> Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, [...], unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon.

What is the interesting new phenomenon this is supposed to be evidence of? (The question is not intended to be a statement.)



A complete backflip of US foreign policy, representing an escalation of the potential for an historic changing of the world order.

That's all.



Thank you for your answer. As a casual observer, I was genuinely curious. I am not well-versed in foreign policy, so I'll leave it at that.


I have to say, and I'm 61 and have always followed the news, I've never seen anything like it. Kind of a Jerry Springer shouting match in the Oval Office. It's a new one on me.

I just watched the video and it was normal until Vance started shouting a bunch of stuff at Zelensky.



This is what you get when you put two former TV personalities in public offices and have them argue their cases in front of cameras , diplomacy takes a back seat and their ego and posture become the main focus


I can't believe so much war mongering is going on this site. So much support for perpetual war, US to become world police. A decade or so ago the sentiment was against these. Where are those people, did they change.

If nations beleive this is a just war then they should send troops to the ground. Otherwise it seems like Ukraine citizens are sent to their graves while west is again virtue signalling.



I think you misinterpret peoples sentiments. They are mostly against war. Putin started this one so if you don't like war you want to see him stopped.


And how to stop putin? Start world war 3? I see that trump is for peace deal. Then why are people against it and calling to further adding fuel? The terms can be agreed later but there should be concerned push for peace. EU calls for unconditional ceasefire everywhere they should call it when it happens in their continent as well.


> Russia didn't start the war, Russia did.

> If in March 2025, people still don’t understand that the war in Ukraine is a proxy war started by NATO, you are either biased or utterly stupid. All the documents are freely available.

I had a discussion with someone yesterday. I said Russia started the war, but his argument is completely the opposite. People actually believe this and it's getting harder to convince them otherwise.



Would it have mattered anyway? I don't know all the specific nuances and context that led to it nor understand what it may lead to.

- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mG2dTDIGjaM



Another one spreading Russian propaganda. Well done.


The whole thing's a mess information wise. I mean the reality is complicated enough plus there are loads of false versions of everything. But it still remains that the 2022 invasion was on Putin's orders and the killing could stop tomorrow if he said to stop it.


I think there has been major astroturfing going on since 2022.


But the guys who are for world peace would comment? Are they afraid of cancel culture or getting drowned in this war madness.


Dunno. I think people don't bother argue with "consensus" in spammy high traffic threads.

Low comment count posts usually have better discussions on the topic, where every third post is not a wish to die from radiation poisoning.

People I know haven't changed much so I guess there might be some selection bias?



I watched the entire meeting attentively from start to finish, and in my opinion, nothing major happened. There was a slight argument, but then the emotions cooled down a bit. What did happen, however, was complete madness in the media. The media went crazy. I think any rational person should know that it’s not worth listening to the media, especially mainstream ones.


That one media guy asking about Zelensky's lack of a suit and it being disrespectful to the Oval Office. Completely out of touch, the man has about a million other things to worry about than that.


It's as a prop to make him look hard af. Is he IN combat regularly? No.


Musk doesn't wear a suit in the Oval Office, is that disrespectful?


Musk is not a world leader.


cancelling a scheduled press-conference without signing a deal is not major?


Do you believe that they actually read that "deal", that everything had already been agreed upon, and then it just so happened that they had an argument in front of journalists and that's why they didn’t sign it?


who are "they"?


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Yeah, and how does the title “Zelensky leaves White House after angry meeting” match with Zelensky’s slight smile and thumbs-up at the very end? Some people probably don’t notice this because, instead of using reason, they let their emotions drive them.


Negotiations get heated. It's the only way to reach an honest agreement. Better to get those feelings out.

Trump was elected on negotiating a peace, and that's going to piss off Zelensky. Zelensky became entitled to a blank check with no strings attached. Now the terms have changed.

There are some people who expect dialog to proceed like an HR meeting, and those that find relief in direct and sometimes heated language.

To me the meeting felt like a tremendous relief. A resolution will develop, finally.



Out of curiosity, what are the other similar public meetings/negotiations you’re aware of that were conducted in a similar way?

Or generally, since you say this did not deviate from your expectations, what are the past events that influenced your baseline expectation for conduct on the geopolitical stage?



> Out of curiosity, what are the other similar public meetings/negotiations you’re aware of that were conducted in a similar way?

There have been a ton of them, at least according to historical accounts. But none in front of reporters like this.



Civility is overrated. Maybe you felt like tired rhetoric from prior admin about Israel or Putin was more effective but I sure don't. People are awfully afraid to rock the boat in American political discourse. It's probably been too polite as a cover for a lot of ugly policy on both the left and right.


it sounds like you're preferring status quo. I'm saying that status quo has failed.


Could you explain further? Specifically in the context of this discussion/today’s meeting and conduct?


I really couldn't have been any clearer, so I don't know what to tell you.


what? you don't have negotiations in public at a press conference. what is trump negotiating here? terms that Ukraine won't accept? what resolution will come out of this outside of hardening Ukrainian resolve, bolstering Zelensky and getting Europe to fund the war?

Trump, the master negotiator /s

A shameful, tactless and pre-planned display. it's easy to blame trump and vance but the true losers here are the American people. American soft power is critical to America's economic power.



What can europe fund the war with? Even if they can come up with the gold, who are they going to buy the weapons from?


Gold? It’s not the 19th century anymore and if you look at list of arms manufacturers you’ll find a lot of familiar names who take euros:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_modern_armament_manufa...



the only way to get euros is with gold. The grain & minerals aren't being produced because he killed off his labor force (young men, and the old ones)


You asked what Europe can fund the war with. The euro zone has a $20 trillion dollar GDP and extensive domestic manufacturing so it’s not clear why you think they need gold to use their own tax revenue.


Ukraine isn’t Europe. Ukraine doesn’t have euros , gold, grain or minerals (out of the ground). And the men have been killed , so they don’t have any way to get that to pay for the weapons


You asked “What can europe fund the war with?” Did you mean to write “Ukraine” instead of “europe”? Otherwise it seems weird to say that the EU can’t take euros, give them to manufacturers in the EU, and disagree the weapons to Ukraine.


Both.


I actually agree that it was a planned dressing down for optics sakes but the attempt is to try to get Zelenskyy out of the way for Trump / Putin direct deal to settle Ukraine matter and the success of this strategy will depend on whether the MAGA media hype will drown out the soft power enjoyers in terms of messaging.


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And days after the election he started threatening potential military force to acquire Greenland and Panama, and economic force to annex Canada.

The reasons he was elected are irrelevant, only his actions since being elected and taking power are.

Since then, Trump has proposed ethnic cleansing and gentrification of Ghaza, and proposed launching attacks into Mexico (putatively to take out cartel members). Anyone who thinks that Trump or his administration are looking for peace or peaceful solutions is clearly delusional.



He’s commanded more peace than every president since Herbert Hoover


[flagged]



You keep saying peace, but if Ukraine stops fighting without security guarantees from countries like the US they get murdered, raped and their children abducted by Russia. How do we know? The war started in 2014, not 2022.

That's the truth that Trump won't acknowledge and common us opinions don't have the understanding of. It's inconvenient and annoying. The only person who can stop this war and bring peace is Putin. Trump could try forcing him, but it's easier just to sacrifice the entire country of Ukraine?!



> The war started in 2014

Exactly! This is the key. Why do you think Trump was the first US president that didn’t see Putin mount an offensive during his term? Trump armed Ukraine to the teeth during his first term, while being sure not to escalate with Putin. He carried a big stick but also didn’t provoke. Ukraine in NATO is unacceptable for Putin. Fact of life. US wouldn’t want Chinese military defenses in Mexico. Biden admin and Europe seem obsessed with this, but Ukraine in NATO ain’t gonna happen without risking a hot war with A FUCKING NUCLEAR POWER. We either end this now or at the very least drive Russia further into China’s arms or provoke a real WW with millions dead. This isn’t just good vs evil. Reality sucks sometimes, but you gotta deal with it. Trump admin is completely ready and willing to provide arms and aid to Ukraine, just as they did in first term. But we’re sick and tired of seeing endless aid further provoking a nuclear power with absolutely nobody envisioning an end other than “we beat Putin”. All the while we deplete our munitions, supplies, money, and have Russia-China rise.



Except there have been a number of agreements with Russia over the last 20 years, and they have kept breaking them. The "peace" now will most likely just be a distraction so Russia can restart their efforts in ten years. It's not really a meaningful peace. This is what Zelensky tried to explain to Trump and Vance when they kept interrupting him.


It's best to read HN in reverse order to get true diversity of thought.

Also recommend custom stylesheet to unhide the grey-text posts.



Agree with you, too much focus on optics over getting things done.

Trump doesn’t seem to care if people are unhappy or uncomfortable, it’s like he has his list of things he said he’d do and he’s sticking to it.



Consider the space of possible paths towards peace in UA that the current administration can choose from. Do you believe the paths with the highest likelihood of success for reaching a mutual peace agreement involve making one of the sides unhappy, uncomfortable, angry, or by publicly berating them?

It is true that he doesn’t care if people are unhappy or uncomfortable, it’s true he doesn’t care about optics, it is true that he has a set of things he wants to get done, and it’s true the first two points influence his approach to achieving the latter. However the question - the only question that matters - still remains: is this approach the most effective course of action to choose? Maybe it’s not reasonable to assert with complete confidence that it isn’t, but it is certainly unreasonable to assert that it is.



Had no idea how far left leaning hn was :(... It's like everyone on here is in a giant echo chamber, saying and thinking the exact same way. Is that not concerning to any of you?


This has nothing to do with being left-leaning. If you disagree with HN's sentiment here, it just means as you have completely lost the plot.


As much as social media will try to ingrain this into you, people are not just "right" or "left" and you'll find plenty of conservatives in the US that are not in agreement with Trump's stance on distancing from old allies and not helping Ukraine, and that doesn't make them "left-wing", "libtards" or other slurs.


I'm not on social media but thanks. My views about HN come from the last few months of almost all top news stories top comments involve trump and or musk bashing if any leap to them can be made. This story was just particularly one sided in the comments.

You say Trump is distancing but the reality is, Ukraine people are dying and he's the only one to offer and off ramp and not endless bloodshed. It's as of nobody in this thread values human life, only important thing is orange man and Putin bad. What Putin did sucks and but it has been happening throughout all human history. The solution is not endless bloodshed. Any offramp and chance at peace should be welcomed by anyone one values life.



Would you be making the same argument if it was 3 years into Russia having invaded the US? Why shouldn't they want to continue fighting for their freedom? Why would they believe Putin will honor any peace deal, and not just use it to prepare for his next offensive?


Not even engaging with your pathetic arguments based on your comment history being exactly why HN has become full of Redditors. And the fact that you make no mention of the bloodshed.


If they EU wants to spend trillions of euros and send millions of europeans soldiers to fight for zelensky then they have every right to do so. If they don't want to pay that price then they should shut up.


There's no talk of sending European soldiers to fight for Zelensky, the only thing currently being discussed is a peace-keeping force, once an accord is reached. If that happens there will most likely be elections held and Zelensky might not get a second term, or maybe he will?


This place has become a real echo chamber lately. I'm seeing radically unexamined opinions stream past like a firehose and can't respond to all of them. But to the anti-peace "pro-Ukranian" people here:

1. Do you see a path to victory? If so, how many Ukranians have will have to die before Crimea is retaken? Conditioned on your answer - do you really care about Ukrainians?

2. Do you really believe that the West stands for the 'rules based international order' while it unconditionally supports the ethnostate of Israel holocausting it's indigenous population inside of a concentration camp?

3. Do you really consider Ukraine to be a democracy given that Zelensky has suspended elections and has repressed his political opposition?



As for point 1:

Russia has ambitions beyond Ukraine. How anyone could forget that when only about 35 years ago they controlled regimes that consist of 40% of Germany in addition to all of Eastern Europe is beyond me. We're not talking about Crimea here, we're talking about Kharkiv, Tallinn, Helsinki. We're talking about the time they marched, with tanks, into Budapest and Prague. We're talking about the time Hitler annexed the Sudetenland. There is but one proven answer that stops people from dying in the long run over the past hundred years. I care about the Polish and Czech people who had their territory split up and who decided to fight and now have their nations back. Same with Ukraine. Whether that means Crimea or not is up to them, but it seems obvious which side one would rather support for lasting, permanent, peace. The one that united the old enemies of Germany, France, and the UK who had fought amongst each other but are now on the same side. The same side that Poland, and Spain are on, despite these five nations having fought again and again over a thousand years. Russia is the odd one out, despite some support for the minor players like Serbia, Hungary and Slovakia. I don't see Poland forming a military alliance with France against Germany or vice versa. It's all, in a nutshell, against Russia, but it's also without any designs for an invasion of Russia.

Now that's peace. For the first time in history (except maybe for a few years after 1815) the nations of Europe haven't torn themselves into pieces for decades now, with one single perpetrator, Russia, being the exception. And Russia already has more than enough land, being the biggest country on the planet, and resources beyond imagination. You blame Russia is what you ought to do, you support a peaceful, prosperous Russia that stays within its borders.

As for point 3:

Article 83

> In the event that the term of authority of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine expires while martial law or a state of emergency is in effect, its authority is extended until the day of the first meeting of the first session of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine , elected after the cancellation of martial law or of the state of emergency.

Article 157

> The Constitution of Ukraine shall not be amended in conditions of martial law or a state of emergency.

No, it's not a democracy. _Because_ of the invasion by a hostile foreign power.

Just wondering, during WW2 would you have been critical of the "pro-UK people here", listing it above anything Nazi Germany, Vichy France or Soviet Union did, because the UK didn't have an election between 1935 and 1945?



Funny to see how all the commenters just ignored point 2.


Because being a whataboutism makes it not relevant.

Implictly making solving the Russia/Ukraine situation (which, again, is basically as simple as Russians just going home) require peace in the Middle East first seems like you just want to delay it for the next just about 5000 years?



On #3: The elections are suspended under well understood rules of martial law.

On how many Ukranians have will have to die before Crimea is retaken?

How much of this is about Crimea? Russia already annexed it, and the world accepted that.

On anti-peace "pro-Ukranian" people

That is an inflammatory strawman that pretty much sums up that your commentary should be ignored. Zelenskyy's point is that Russia / Putin has not honoured past attempts at diplomacy, which rings true for me.



How much of your own land would you hand over if you were invaded and slaughtered? I hope you sleep well, because a lot of Ukrainians haven't for three years.


you don't care about Ukrainians. If you did, you'd want peace. Fake empathy, reprehensible.


You're making the same (intentional?) mistake as Trump and Vance in assuming that Putin / Russia will comply with deals / agreements / diplomacy.

Putin / Russia has a history of changing their minds in short order and trampling all over prior diplomacy.

The "peace" you're after is temporary, and it won't be Ukraine that breaks it.



The former reality tv star is good at reality tv. What’s usually kept behind closed doors is now out in open, because it makes for great viewership. People gobble this up, which has given the reality tv star endless attention

Hacker News has fallen victim to the reality tv star’s antics



HN didn't fall victim to the reality tv star's antics. The audience he's trying to impress has fallen victim to the believe that the antics of a reality tv star make for a good president.


Hacker News has most definitely fallen victim to the antics, given how many times said antics have popped up on HN recently and have been flagged. I'm flagging these posts and I will keep flagging them too

e.g.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43198759

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43121467

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43110333

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43033493

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43033275



This isn't just trolling or good TV. It's doing severe and permanent damage to US foreign policy.


Both can be simultaneously true


So what are you saying? We should just ignore what the president of the country does? Even when he is spreading vindictive malicious lies? Or advocating for policies that are in direct opposition to the values of the country (and in some cases, also the law and/or constitution)?

Trump is not given special treatment here. What he does gets reported just as any other President: Biden, Bush, Clinton, etc. In the 80s Reagan's leaked "we will begin bombing in five minutes" soundcheck joke attracted quite a bit of criticism "because the president should be more careful with his words".



Are you talking about Trump or Zelensky here?


Haha, every politician is learning that they win by manipulating the press and algorithms these days. Is there an option C for both?


> these days

I would argue all days

> Is there an option C for both

absolutely :)



To me the HN comments are even more interesting than the event itself. Politics is rarely at HN so it was a rare chance to see the opinions about this topic.

Most commenters have highly inadequate view of the Ukrainian situation. I wonder why. Even in highly censored and manipulated universe of western information space, there are enough facts to form more adequate views. What makes people ignore the facts and stick to the wrong views?

I suspect it's because of a feeling instilled, that sticking to these opinions makes them good people. If you #StandWithUkraine you become a kind of a moral hero.

Paradoxically, this confirms the need for brainwashing in mass politics. If normal, sufficiently intelligent and developed audience can not form adequate views of political questions, somebody needs to guide their views.

Unless some new technology or social organization emerges, that allows public to form a balanced and adequate opinion, some guides will need to brainwash the public.

But when the guides are themselves inadequate, troubles happen.



My take doesn't conform to HN leanings on this:

Zelensky messed up here. He and his country are a position of need. Ukraine needs the US, not the other way around. In that position, you don't walk into the Oval Office arms crossed, eyes rolling, head shaking with your demands. You come in with the understanding the US has given you over $300 billion in aid, the US is offering a minerals rights deal that benefits your country economically and binds the US and Ukraine closer economically, politically and most likely militarily (the US protects its interests abroad). Given that, you come in with a thankful attitude seeing that this deal is the beginning, not the end of the solution to your problems. It's a very good beginning. You'll have disagreements with the President for sure. You air those out behind close doors, not in the house of your guests/benefactors for all the world to see. This is basic diplomacy.

This deal is very good for Ukraine. It's in Zelensky's court to salvage the damage he's caused. The Ukrainian people depend on it.



My gut feeling is that HN comments on these political threads (which are almost always of sinistral statist ideology, à la anti-DOGE, pro-Ukraine, etc.) do not properly represent the whole HN demographics. It seems that only a small vocal group of participants tend to participate in these threads. Most techies just want to do tech stuff.


Why would you expect nuance from a set of commenters that generally defer to their country's media class to do the thinking about any complex issues—so as to boil them down to a Star Wars-tier “good vs. evil” distillation—for them?


ironically you are contributing to the poor discourse by vaguely pointing to a lack of fact based views, but without specifying which facts you think are wrong or missing in this discussion.


What facts do you think people are ignoring?

I think everyone knows Ukraine is at a disadvantage in this war in terms of manpower, ammo, money, resources, allies, etc.

But what Zelensky said in the meeting is true. Ceasefires and agreements don't mean much to Putin. He has broken them in the past. He's not someone who can be defeated in diplomacy.

It's a tough issue without an easy resolution. I don't think people here think otherwise?



[flagged]



Sorry if my comment is pretentious.

I can't go further into details about Ukraine, not today at least.

One piece of information in my comment is that I suspect arguments and facts are likely to be ignored if people a-priory convinced what opinion makes them "good" and what opinion is shameful.



Strange, why is the parent comment flagged now.

Mildly critical of me, he just engaged in dialogue and asked for facts.



Most here will not like that opinion, but I think this is essentially a good thing, it will eventually end this war - at huge costs for Ukraine. The fault of the USA is not that they now pressure Ukraine towards ending this war, the fault of the USA was that they did not accept Russia's demand - or at least tried to find an acceptable compromise - for Ukraine not to join NATO which caused this tragedy.


Assuming you're writing in good faith: Russia has already signed a treaty confirming Ukraine's sovereignty and its borders. Then ignored it and attacked - twice. First time it also pretended it wasn't them, until they turned around and said, "haha, actually it was".

Russia does not hold up bargains, so there is no positive utility in giving them things.



That is a very weak argument, in my opinion. What if Ukraine attacked Russia, would you still expected Russia not to step into Ukraine while fighting back? Countries pull out of and break treaties all the time when the circumstances change. After all, all laws and rights and agreements and treaties are just ink on paper and they are worth nothing without the will and power to enforce them.


Circumstances didn't change though. Ukrainian borders were guaranteed by Russia and US (and some European countries too I think) unconditionally. Ukraine didn't attack Russia, quite the opposite. And as per my first post, in the first attack Russia didn't even pretend they had a cause - they pretended it wasn't them.

> treaties [...] are worth nothing without the will and power to enforce them

Well, precisely. Russia has demonstrated time and again that they don't honor agreements. Any agreement where you give Russia something today in exchange for something tomorrow just doesn't work.



Circumstances did not change? I am not too familiar with those treaties but I assume you are referring to the treaties in the context of Ukraine surrendering Soviet nuclear weapons at the end of the Cold War, correct? At that time the Soviets almost certainly did not consider the possibility of their neighbor becoming a NATO member and potentially ending up with US troops and weapons at their border. Circumstances most certainly changed since then.


If we're talking about the Budapest Memorandum, cirumstances possibly changing are actually part of the treaty. The memorandum conditions the use of force against Ukraine, and makes provisions for what would happen if a party to the treaty or one of its allies attacks another party to the treaty (second and fifth point, one is about conventional response, the other about nuclear response):

> [The parties shall] refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of the signatories to the memorandum, and undertake that none of their weapons will ever be used against these countries, except in cases of self-defense or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations.

If memory serves right, Ukraine didn't invade Russia, and Russia is not under a UN mandate.



That's the treaty. It was unconditional and unlimited in time, and Ukraine gave up something real for that security. Even if the rest of your argument holds, the lesson is there: don't give up things for promises from Russia. Today Ukraine would certainly rather have the nukes than a piece of paper.

As for the rest of it... As said, Ukraine wasn't really on track for NATO membership. But even if it was, this is all hyperbolic speech from Russia. For one, they themselves have no issue having lots of weaponry right on the border, in Kaliningrad and Belarus. For two, they made so much noise about Ukraine, well, basically not being ruled out of NATO, but when Finland, with a much longer border and more money actually joined NATO, they whimpered some half hearted threats and were done with it. Didn't seem to care much one way or the other.



The Baltics were already NATO members and directly border Russia, so what difference would Ukraine joining NATO have made?


> What if Ukraine attacked Russia

They didn't. So entirely irrelevant.



What are you talking about? I asked a hypothetical question to point out that what is written in treaties is not some God given law that can not be broken under any circumstances.


Ukraine is not a member of NATO.


Who said they are? The official position of NATO was that Ukraine will eventually join NATO while Russia demanded that Ukraine will not join NATO. Contrary to the western mainstream opinion, I think that is why Putin started this war, to prevent Ukraine joining NATO, not to grab some land.


You said it:

> the fault of the USA was that they did not accept Russia's demand - or at least tried to find an acceptable compromise - for Ukraine not to join NATO which caused this tragedy

The US basically accepted that demand, and Russia still attacked Ukraine. They wanted the land no matter what.



What do you mean with basically accepted that demand? Give me a source and I will stand corrected. I have stayed away from discussing this war for a long time since the outcome is pretty predictable given my point of view, so I forgot a lot of the details from when I carefully researched the topic. But as far as I remember, there was not hint of willingness to accommodate Russian demands.


The demand is met by Ukraine not being in NATO. You can see the list of NATO members here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO

If Ukraine joined NATO - that would be disregarding Russian demands.

Russia just didn't want Ukraine to join because they wanted to annex the eastern part of it. Having it in NATO would mean that they couldn't do that.

Of course they're opposed to Ukraine joining even after that annexation - they'll take more land if they can get it. They don't care about human lives, will regroup, recover, and attack again.



With all due respect, that is a really stupid argument. The official NATO position was that Ukraine will eventually become a NATO member, Bucharest summit 2008. That position remained unchanged, at least until the beginning of the Russian invasion. The Russian demand was and probably is, that Ukraine will not become a NATO member in the future, not that it is not a NATO member right now. To the best of my knowledge, NATO has never stated that it will not bar Ukraine from joining NATO indefinitely or something even remotely similar.

And while you think Russia just wanted the territory, I think Russia just does not want US troops or weapons at their borders, just as the USA would probably not enjoy Chinese troops or weapons in Mexico. Or how they did not like Soviet nuclear weapons in Cuba. Or how they in 2022 threatened consequences to Solomon Islands - 10,000 km from US borders - if they allowed China to establish a military base.



There are already 6 NATO countries on the border with Russia, I'm shocked that you don't know this.

If Ukraine became a member before 2014, we wouldn't have had this horrible war, but Russia was controlling Ukraine's political class, and making threats to NATO countries against them joining. Especially against Germany who was reliant on Russian gas imports.

I can see that you're determined to believe that Russia is just defending itself here by attacking preemptively, and you will probably support any action by them, including a full annexation, and attribute it to their reasonable intentions.

No need to pretend that you have respect for me... But in reality what's happening is that you're dismissing information that doesn't fit in your worldview, by disparaging the person who presents them to you.



Was Russia happy about those countries joining NATO or did it protest? Were the relationships between the East and the West better so that this was of less concern? Was Russia weaker and had less power to resist? I do not see how Russia living with the existing NATO neighbors would imply that Ukraine becoming another one would be of no concern.

How do you know that Russia would not have attacked if Ukraine would have tried to join earlier? Why would Russia not have intervened in 2008 as it did in Georgia?

I am not determined to believe anything, I want to correctly understand the world and know the truth. I can give you countless examples over several decades where Russia protest NATO expansion and threatened consequences. Can you give me any sources where Russia was expressing expansionist considerations? And before you say On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians, make sure you actually read it.



Russia wasn't happy, because it wanted to keep the option to militarily expand in all of these countries. I think we agree here.

> I do not see how Russia living with the existing NATO neighbors would imply that Ukraine becoming another one would be of no concern.

The current NATO neighbors didn't present any threat to territorial integrity of Russia. The only reason Russia doesn't like them joining is that it doesn't have an option to militarily expand there anymore, something that is important to Russian leadership and people.

> How do you know that Russia would not have attacked if Ukraine would have tried to join earlier?

If Ukraine joined, Russia wouldn't touch it like it didn't touch any of the NATO countries. Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia have a Russian minority, but Russia can't support separatist movements, and intervene militarily there as easily as in Ukraine or Georgia.

> I want to correctly understand the world and know the truth.

In geopolitics, there's no single "truth," only perspectives backed by evidence. Every Russian is taught in school that eastern Ukraine is "rightfully" theirs, and they get a compelling story to back up this belief. Ukraine being in NATO would make it impossible for Russia to act on this claim for decades, and the claim would have weakened with time.

> Why would Russia not have intervened in 2008 as it did in Georgia?

Russia intervened in Georgia to support separatists, not to stop NATO accession.

> Can you give me any sources where Russia was expressing expansionist considerations?

https://irp.fas.org/news/2005/04/putin042505.html

"Tens of millions of our citizens and fellow-countrymen found themselves outside the Russian Federation."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Russian_units_which_in...

"You don’t understand, George, Ukraine is not even a state. What is Ukraine? Part of its territories is Eastern Europe, but the greater part is a gift from us."

https://www.russiamatters.org/analysis/accepting-nato-aspira...

They want the greater part "back".

---

The benefit of the doubt that you give to Russia is fantastic!



Sorry, it is too late here to continue that discussion now. If I find the time maybe tomorrow. Or you could watch this talk [1], I essentially agree with the views of John Mearsheimer, so that talk might address your points. That one predates the invasion by seven years, but there are newer talks including post-invasion.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4



Mearsheimer is literally on Russian payroll and the linked video is full of lies. I'll give you one non-political example. At 8:45, he shows a map of Europe. Countries like Finland and Estonia are shown as importing 100% of their natural gas from Russia. Mearsheimer comments that this shows their heavy dependance on Russia. He omits the fact that the share of natural gas has been limited only to a small fraction of the overall energy mix, by government policy, precisely to avoid dependence on Russia. In Finland's case, that "100% Russian gas" was less than 10% of the total energy mix, and mostly in non-critical uses. This trick is known as inflated importance: using absolute percentages without relative context to exaggerate significance.

He pulls similar well-known tricks throughout the video. Shows a map that divides Ukraine into two parts by their dominant language and calls Ukraine "a badly divided country", but fails to mention that Ukraine is bilingual and the difference is only something like "92% speak Ukrainian / 88% speak Russian" and "91% speak Russian / 87% speak Ukrainian" in areas that have drastically different colors. Just compare the map shown at 6:22 with the magenta/teal bars representing Ukrainian/Russian languages at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Ukraine#/media/Fi... This manipulation technique is known as false binning: grouping values into distinct color categories that overemphasize minor variations.

The man is an incredible fraud, and the linked video is one of the most damaging pieces of propaganda produced this century.



Do not get hung up on the details of the presentation and if some charts are misleading, address the core argument. Russia perceives NATO expansion as a security threat, that concern is not imaginary given the uncertainty of the future, and the West ignored those concerns which left Putin with essentially no other option than the use of force.


The core argument is nonsense and bears little connection to actual events or motivations. Mearsheimer completely ignores the many nations of Europe, their history and current goals. He reduces the complex web of relations that goes back many centuries into an imagined US vs Russia confrontation that never was. He doesn't even speak Russian, which limits him to a tiny sliver of knowledge published in English. It's like a blind man trying to act as an expert in visual arts.

There is no such thing as "NATO expansion". At the end of the WWII, the USSR rolled over the entire Eastern Europe while fighting Germany. After the war ended, they refused to leave, and instead set up Moscow-controlled dictatorships that lasted until the USSR collapsed. I was born in one of such. Couldn't travel nor read foreign books. Didn't have freedom of speech and other most basic rights. An inappropriate joke could get you jailed. I personally knew someone who was sentenced to a Siberian labor camp in the 1980s for advocating human rights. Economy stagnated severely and shops were empty all the time. People had money, but there was nothing to buy in stores. Even top scientists and engineers had to grow their own food on small plots to feed their families. Bananas and jeans were considered rare luxury items.

The shithole finally collapsed in 1991 and Russia was forced to end their military occupation: pack up their dictatorship, dismantle the oppressive secret services and remove their armies. We were finally able to live as free Europeans again after 50 years. Visit other countries, read and write whatever we wanted.

And to ensure that we would never see the return of Russia, we tried to get as deeply integrated with the rest of Europe as possible. That means membership in the Council of Europe, European Union, and NATO.

Eastern Europe's entry into NATO and other organization was motivated purely by the extremely traumatic post-WWII experience of living under the Russian boot. It was our strong initiative desire to join the organization, against cold reception of existing members who had no interest in extending their defence pact. Ironically, they accepted us only because they believed our fears to be unfounded, meaning that they would never actually have to help us fight Russian invasions onto our soil, but saw value in the stabilizing effect that being in NATO would have.

NATO is not a threat to Russia, because NATO mandates civilian oversight over military affairs, and the mutual defense guarantee acts as a moderator that forces every member to consult with others before any military actions. This makes NATO countries extremely stable and predictable. We can see this clearly with aiding Ukraine, where every step is discussed for months and telegraphed long in advance. The over-reliance on stronger members of the organization, namely the US, has led to most European members to being unable to defend even their own country. Who in their right mind calls such countries a threat?

Russians unaffiliated with the dictator Putin understand this perfectly. The man who was Russia's foreign minister for most of the 1990s decribes NATO as "providing free-of-charge security along Russia's western borders". They have no problem with NATO and they are remarkably supportive of it.

The only ones raging over NATO are Putin and his cronies who have destroyed all opposition and consolidated all power in Russia and have now set their sights on external expansion through conquest. NATO stands in their way. They can't invade small countries one by one, but must face the entire bloc at once. They are unable to handle such a confrontation, hence their impotent rage.



I was born behind the Iron Curtain, too. And I said that Ukraine has good reasons wanting to join NATO and so did and do other former Soviet Bloc countries, nobody is denying that. But that is only one side of the conflict. No matter what Russia or the Soviet Union did in the past, it still remains true that having a powerful military alliance right at your border poses a potential security thread.

And for long-term strategic planning it does not only matter what the situation is right now. Relationships change, the Cold War was not the same situation as the relatively good relations after the Cold War - were even the idea of Russia joining NATO floated around - and then the relationship heavily deteriorated again. So even if your characterization of NATO was correct today - and I would disagree, I think of NATO more as the USA plus some minions given the vast power differential - that is no guarantee for future behavior.



Mearsheimer and others, by omission, are denying the influence of past Russian behavior. Why are you focusing on purely hypothetical Russian security concerns instead of the very real security concerns of countries that have been attacked many times in the past, are under attack now - like Ukraine - , or fear they will be next?

The narrative about NATO being a threat to Russia is also ridiculous in how detached it is from reality. If NATO were truly a threat to Russia, then why aren't Russians building air raid shelters as a mandatory part of every building, preparing their bridges for demolition, and carrying out other preparatory work like the Finns are doing? Why are the Finns digging anti-tank ditches and mapping border areas for minefields, while Russia's side is completely open and doesn't even have a chainlink fence? Where is the fear of NATO in real observable facts?

The problem Russia has with NATO is not an imagined threat, but the fact that NATO stands in the way of Russia conquering Eastern Europe again.

If Finland were not allied with anyone, Russia would face only Finnish regular forces with limited foreign aid when invading the country. The maximum opposing force would be relatively small and predictable. With NATO, Russia faces potentially everything, up to American carrier groups and nuclear missiles tucked between cornfields in Ohio. For Russia, demanding that European countries be kicked out of NATO means significantly lowering the cost of invading them, but does nothing to shelter them from the most powerful NATO countries, like the US, which constitute the overwhelming majority of NATO's military force. This too reveals where the true concern lies.



Why are you focusing on purely hypothetical Russian security concerns instead of the very real security concerns of countries that have been attacked many times in the past [...]

I have repeatedly stated that both sides have good reasons for what they want, either joining NATO or not wanting NATO at the border. That is why there is even a conflict, because two parties want opposing things.

Your claim is essentially NATO is the good guy, so Russia being worried is irrational and nobody needs to care. That sounds more like focusing on one site to me. The USA is worried about Chinese military bases in Solomon Islands half way around the globe, so why can Russia not be worried about the USA in Ukraine?



Where is the Russian fear of NATO in real terms? Why is everyone in Europe building defensive lines on their side of the border with Russia, while Russia has only open fields on its side?

Putin's dictatorship is indeed extremely irritated by Eastern Europe being in NATO for rational reasons, but those are different reasons than you are trying to present.



I am not entirely sure what I should make out of this response. You are not attacking the position that Ukraine in NATO is a potential security threat to Russia, you are only saying that they are not acting accordingly. Does that imply that you are agreeing that having a competing military alliance at your border is a potential security threat?

Besides that I can think of several reasons why Russia only has fields. Firstly, Ukraine is not yet in NATO, so any defensive measures would be premature. And they invaded Ukraine to maintain that state which seems a way stronger reaction then constructing defensive lines. Also building defensive lines implies worries about a ground invasion and it is not obvious to me that this would be Russia's primary concern.

They might, for example, be mainly worried about the nuclear balance. If the USA could place ABM defense systems closer to Russia, they might be able to more efficiently intercept Russian ICBMs in the boost phase when the missiles are still relatively slow and vulnerable. That would diminish the Russian retaliatory strike threat in case of a US nuclear attack. Also having weapons closer to the target reduces the reaction time the enemy has. For that kind of risk ground defense lines it not the reaction one would expect.

It might also be for simple reasons like a lack of resources. Or Russia might refrain from doing what it does not want NATO to do.



Do you really discover the world through YouTube videos? :( You’re making it too easy for the Russian propaganda machine.

How can you even elect one person in a video as a proxy for your entire view on a subject, and say „watch, he will address all concerns”.



How do you conclude that my view of the world comes from YouTube videos? If I am interested in a topic, I actually read the primary sources, and on the war in Ukraine I have done a fair bit of that in the beginning. In that respect I am easily better informed than 99 % of people that just consume the news in one way or another.

And there are essentially two points of view, either Russia has expansionist ambitions or Russia has legitimate security concerns not taken serious by the West. It is trivial to find someone that argues either position. And nuance does not matter here because we disagree on the absolute fundamentals, so it does not even matter whether I agree with every last word as long as I agree with the main points.

And am I neither Russian nor American nor do I feel close ties to any side, so I will happily change my position if someone provides the necessary evidence. But so far nobody has done so.



> If I am interested in a topic, I actually read the primary sources,

You're not referring to any primary sources here.

> In that respect I am easily better informed than 99 % of people

Bold claim, but even if true, doesn't mean that you can accurately assess the situation.

> there are essentially two points of view, either Russia has expansionist ambitions or Russia has legitimate security concerns not taken serious by the West.

The first is evidence based - Russia is expanding. The second has the convenient property that it backwards rationalizes Russia's violent actions, while not looking at the evidence. It requires mental gymnastics, and is therefore more popular with Russians who have an interest in believing it.

> nuance does not matter here because we disagree on the absolute fundamentals

Like what? Do you deny that Russia invaded Ukraine?

> am I neither Russian nor American nor do I feel close ties to any side

This is presenting the conflict as just two empires fighting over who gets the influence over the European countries, and completely ignores these countries' own agency.

The reason Ukraine wants to join NATO is because they're threatened by a neighbor who actively invades their territory, kills civilians, disrupts their economy ands terrorizes them. Not because they like Biden or want to be American.



Instead of discussing many different points, let us focus on one.

You're not referring to any primary sources here. [...] The first is evidence based - Russia is expanding. The second has the convenient property that it backwards rationalizes Russia's violent actions [...]

Give me a pre-invasion source that says that Russia has expansionist ambitions, bonus points if that claim is substantiated by evidence. I give you Putin's speech at the 2007 Munich Security Conference [1] and the draft Agreement on measures to ensure the security of The Russian Federation and member States of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization [2].

And just to be clear, I think that declaring that Russia has expansionist ambitions is backwards rationalization, nobody claimed that before the invasion. Russia warning about the consequences of further NATO expansion, especially Ukraine, on the other hand has been stated countless times and for decades now.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQ58Yv6kP44

[2] https://mid.ru/ru/foreign_policy/rso/nato/1790803/?lang=en



Are you still searching?


Ukraine wants security guarantees. A ceasefire without security guarantees is an opportunity for Russia to resupply and attack again.


They will not get any. Let us be real, nobody really cares about Ukraine. If a country truly cared, they would have sent their own troops towards Ukraine on day one of the invasion. Nobody will agree to potentially fight in a war against a nuclear [super] power to protect Ukrainian sovereignty.


Except for the nukes, there is nothing super about the Russian army. Except maybe access to vodka, that seems to be a very high priority.


The nukes might be important, though. You might as well be saying "If he weren't pointing a gun at me..."


And how is "ending the war" certain after a cease fire and not just a temporary pause in Putin's quest to eliminiate Ukraine/opposition and annex/install a puppet ruler there?


Nothing is certain. I say this because I think that the mainstream point of view - that Putin is an expansionist and will conquer whatever he can - is wrong. If I am wrong with that and the mainstream opinion is correct, than it is of course a potentially [1] bad idea to end the war.

[1] I say potentially because even in the case that Russia will attack again, it is not obvious that ending the war for now is bad for Ukraine. Maybe they could grow their military potential quicker than Russia and be in a relatively better position in the future.



How do you square your beliefs with the fact that Russia took Crimea, decided that wasn't enough, and went back for more?


The NATO declaration from the 2008 Bucharest Summit was that Georgia and Ukraine will eventually become NATO members, both unacceptable for Russia. Georgia was promptly invaded in 2008. Until 2014 under president Yanukovych Ukraine did not seek closer ties to NATO. That changed in 2014 and Russia annexed Crimea. [1] While Russia wanted the Minsk agreements to work, the West just used them as tools to buy more time. Despite repeated protests and demands from Russia right until the invasion, NATO position did not show any signs of change. So in my opinion that is all just escalation to get NATO to accept the demands or prevent a NATO membership with force. Even in the negotiation in the first weeks of the war, Russia was willing to end the war for non-membership of Ukraine.

[1] The timeline in late 2013 and 2014 is somewhat confusing with respect to my point of view, the turn towards NATO seems to come after the annexation and the events in eastern Ukraine. But there might have been an element of anticipation or non-public information.



Russia's opinions on Ukraine's alliances do not give them the right to invade a sovereign nation.


Forget rights, they mean nothing without the power to enforce them. Think about the actual situation. Ukraine has good reasons to join NATO. Russia has good reasons to want Ukraine not in NATO. Those are conflicting goals, you can not have both. One party has to give up their goal, either Ukraine decides not to join, or NATO does not allow them, or Russia has to live with Ukraine in NATO. Or maybe there could be some compromise, NATO membership but no foreign troops or weapons, similar to Norway. But none of that happened, so Russia decided to settle the issue with force. Which is the only option if other means did not resolve the conflict.

You probably want to argue that Ukraine is a sovereign state and they can join whichever alliance they want. But this is where I disagree. A NATO membership is not just a signature on a document, it has physical consequences. Not that I think NATO is planning to invade Russia, but as a country you have to think in longer terms and be careful. Yesterday the democracy leading the world - at least in the own view - today pondering to take over some friendly countries and kicking an entire population out of the remains of their land to turn it into a holiday resort. With such uncertainty in mind, Ukraine becoming a NATO member is a security threat to Russia.

So countries do not live in a vacuum, they can not do whatever they please even though they are sovereign countries. An the USA has exactly the same view, they did not think that Cuba can have Soviet nuclear weapons, even though that was a reaction to an attempt coup d'état by the USA. Or only weeks after Russia invaded Ukraine, the USA made clear that Solomon Islands can not decide to host a Chinese military base. And yes, there are obviously different issues, I am not saying that every demand by a neighbor is reasonable and worth considering.



Putin is a threat to world stability and should be treated as such.


I don’t know what to believe much these days. So instead, I look to see at what actions are being taken instead of endlessly reading news and forums for consensus.

And what I see is Europe doesn’t seem to care much if Ukraine falls. The United States, has been supporting Ukraine far more up to this point, and they are not the ones facing the prospect of having Russia in their backyard breathing down their back. So if Europe doesn’t give a fuck, maybe it really means the fall of Ukraine ultimately doesn’t mean much to anyone except the Ukrainian people. The world will move on. This helps keep me calm and prevents me from stressing over most world affairs.

And another thing I wonder is what exactly is so bad about Russia anyways? Their leader sucks, but so does ours, and don’t people of both nations just want a good life at the end of the day? How different are they really from us? When I see TikTok interviews of everyday Russians in the streets, they are just like us, similar beliefs about their own country and what is wrong with the world. I understand less and less the source of our conflict.



Let me help you out: one country invading the other, destroying homes and lives. But that should not concern you much as apparently it is not you who is under attack.


When Israel invaded Gaza we let them


When Israel invaded Gaza, the initial causus belli was the Hamas-led attack on Israel and Israelis, including defenceless civillians at a music festival. There was strong worldwide agreement and support of Israel at that time.

Where Israel took that combat, and what emerged subsequently of Israel's flagrant ignoring of direct threat warnings and assessments from both its own intelligence services and those of foreign countries (notably Egypt) markedly damped down that initial support.

Self-defence is a legitimate grounds for combat and invasion under currently prevailing international norms and law. Disproportionate attacks, most especially on civilians and civil infrastructure not so much. I'll grant that the situation in Gaza is complicated by numerous factors, but not nearly so much in any plausible interpretation as Israel has made its case.

This isn't a case for either war as Israel transacted it or unilateral peace on Israel's part, but there's marked daylight between those positions.



Because Biden supports Israel, same story with Ukraine.


Maybe if you had instead done some research you'd see that Europe has provided more military aid than the United States.

Also, relying on "TikTok interviews" ridiculously naive. You could just as well watch Russia Today and get the same amount of propaganda shoved down your throat.



if europe has provided more military aid than why do they need united states for this conflict? cant EU and ukraine just resolve this? why did Zelenskyy come to make a deal for the resources?


Because you don't overrun a nuclear state with weapons, but with influence and the true promise of scaling up.


What influence? The US and EU isn't going to engage with Russia directly in battle. There's no influence to be peddled. Unless the EU and US have something Russian wants, no influence can be peddled.

The truth is, Europeans know that if Ukraine falls nothing will happen to Europeans. There is no existential threat. There has been no national mobilization of industry to support Ukraine's war efforts.

The entire western world over the last 3 years has left Ukraine with a 10-1 artillery disadvantage. It's just not a serious concern for people.



So thoughts and prayers basically. Thanks for nothing.


Because 1.2 + 1.1 means much greater rate of success and less deaths? If you would care about your country, why wouldn't you want as much support as you could get, even if you would have the upper hand?

Zelensky wanted security guarantees to further help to defend his country from murder and death.

Why is that so strange to you?



Because there's more than direct money and weapons. US soft power matters, though Trump is quickly dismantling that so maybe it won't matter as much.


Am in Europe (NL), people do care. I have Ukranian refugees living in my town, I helped them with computers and bicycles and what I could to help some kids be able to do their school works.

Europe has given more than the US to Ukraine. https://www.ifw-kiel.de/topics/war-against-ukraine/ukraine-s...

US number would've been smaller if Biden did not push a large package before leaving. I think EU should do more.

What is so bad about Russia to the US? Well, you can ask every American administration of the past 30 years, they all seemed to agree before. For some Russian doctrine introduction: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics



Ok but in Russia do they say similar things about the US? And if so then is there some backlash from Russians who believe Putin shouldn’t be dealing with the US as a potential ally?


I would not be able to say. I work with Russians but they avoid any political discussion. The few who do say something are more aligned with western views.

The little I seen from news I take are part of a bubble but show the US being ridiculed by tv hosts and the such. The US is/was the face of NATO for Russia for a long time, that narrative can shift very fast tho.



Russian propaganda just paints Trump and the Republicans as morons who are easily played by Putin. Of course USA is still the enemy, and evil.




> Their leader sucks, but so does ours

But people voted for one and not the other.



Wow what on earth did I just read xD






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