As more of the population feels the effects of inequality they won't appeased by just fancy toys and shiny things, they will want change by force. My only solace is I'll probably be long dead by the time that happens.

His wealth was mainly in very illiquid land. A lot of it was near worthless unless US won the war since it was beyond the line drawn by the Royal Proclamation of 1763 and white settlers were generally banned from settling there.

Otherwise like many landholders back in the day he was semi-broke and had limited access to cash.

Of course after the war of course he was both compensated for his expenses and got “his” land in Ohio (more or less)

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_cost_of_the_Iraq_War

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_of_Elon_Musk

Wars were much cheaper when all you needed were men, horses and small arms.

So it stands to reason that wars will be as expensive as possible. It’s pay to win to a degree.

The war was much more expensive for the British than for the Colonists, and became even more expensive once France joined. The British didn't lose because they couldn't keep fighting, but because the cost of the war grew to be higher than the expected value of winning.

It was also expensive for the French, and that cost helped bankrupt the state, which led to the French Revolution. One of many causes.

Had the runway to bankruptcy been longer, a more decisive king than Louis 16th might have managed to successfully reform the state without it being shattered.

Perhaps the crisis wouldn't have landed at the same time as weather-driven economic downturn.

Maybe if it had been a few years later, different people would have gotten into power and Brissot wouldn't have started a disastrous war with Austria that spiraled everything out of anyone's control.

Or any number of other scenarios.

Certainly not. You could not print money out of nothing for a fairly long time.

Perhaps but IMHO it’s a very high risk strategy and I doubt it’s necessarily optimal if more wealth is his primary goal (as opposed to his other seemingly highly megalomaniacal ambitions..)

So far his actions haven’t really been that beneficial for Tesla (of course its sales growth might have significantly slowed down even if he stayed out of politics). SpaceX can only make that much even if it gets to appropriate the entire budget of NASA. Also at the end of the day his and Trump’s relationship might fall apart any day.

He’s motivated by power, and the fear of power being taken away.

But yes, likely motivated by power too.

The people who get to be billionaires are motivated differently to normal people. They are more like feudal kings.

But yes, confiscation of all his property and even the gallows (fortunately or unfortunately for everyone else) is not a risk Musk is facing yet.

Owning people is the easiest way to become wealthy. Owning land is the second-easiest.

Is that true ?

As far as I am aware, the money the French Government alone loaned to the US during the revolutionary war (at least two million dollars[0]) far exceeded the value of Washington personal wealth (estimated at $780,000 in 1799 [1], so at the time of his death, not during the war).

And this is not counting all the loans made from other foreign sources (the Spanish Government and private Dutch investors), and the money raised directly by the Continental Congress.

Also, as others have said, it would have been almost impossible to liquidate his assets (his lands and his slaves) during the war - the problem was availability of cash, not wealth.

[0] https://history.state.gov/milestones/1784-1800/loans [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finances_of_George_Washington#...

But it is also totally irrelevant, because the point is that Washington was one of the richest people in America before the war started and even richer when he died. There is no doubt about that.

I'm doubting the different and very specific claim that "George Washington could have financed the entire Revolutionary War" with just a third of his wealth.

To me, the math simply does not add up. I suppose it can be chalked up to hyperbole ?

I also don't see how a discussion of the Iraq war could be relevant to that claim ...

Perhaps so. But you're the one who made the initial claim so confidently and definitively. To now say "it's complex and based only on a few notes, and depends on how you want to see it" is basically the same as saying "my original claim was my spin on it, which I was asking everyone to take as accurate".

Smaller groups you can outright kill in daylight, but better to get to them first to torture and kill them out of sight.

Once you need to kill 500.000 who are protesting and if violence to quell the hoards wakes up more people who want to see the regime fail.

Turned out that in this day and age when the governments have unprecedented powers of surveillance and the ability to cut anyone from the respective financial system, a revolution is a really hard thing to pull off.

If the British had the kind of power that even half-competent governments have today, the American revolution would never have succeeded.

not only that, but to sniff out those with whom they transacted. This causes a chilling effect, because secondary sanctions cause just as much harm.

It's also why i am against removal of cash based, anonymous transactions. It is needed, so that the state cannot cut off citizens at their whim.

Euromaidan succeeded because it also had massive support and influence from the western powers and from the western(mostly US) itelligence agencies to make the pro-Russian regime change happen.

Similar to the fall of the Berlin wall and the fall of communism in Eastern Europe, it was a decades long effort from the US itelligence agencies, they didn't just sit around and wait for the local population to revolt.

People ignore how much external interference these revolutions get in order to make regime changes happen.

If the public knew everything the CIA was doing, they would be not very good at their job. Stuff like this is usually declassified only 50+ years later or sometimes never. So please, let's not use the "I've only seen Russian agents in the streets but not CIA" as some sort of argument since that insults everyone's intelligence.

tbh British empire at that time still has Canada,India,Australia and not counting 'small size' territory they has, Yes they can supress American Revolt absolutely but it would be a burden and not cost effective at the same time. colonies is bussiness after all

if they can't produce wealth then why fought so hard to defend this land???

Did they, though... The Western media depicts all color revolutions as such movements, complete with 'the military speaking out'. They did the same in Venezuela and other places. The 'military guys speaking out' turned out to be Colombian mercenaries who put on the wrong Venezuelan army uniform and whatnot.

Having written that, so yes and no. As in, I don’t think there were many (any?) active service members. That likely would’ve been very dangerous. But people who had close and recent ties with the military, so could be expected to be regime loyalists, yes, plenty.

EDIT: I never follow Ukraine, Russia, or Belarus on “Western media”. I read Russian, so I follow a bunch of Telegram channels from those countries. The protests in Belarus were basically covered live.

Not saying it will turn out differently, but there are more guns circulating in the US than there are people. Nearly everyone has or can easily get access to a gun. US culture is also quite a bit different, celebrating violence, don't tread on me, etc...

Again, it might not make a difference, but I'm not sure those other situations are comparable.

Something else to note is that military officers swear an oath the constitution, not POTUS (like enlisted do). Asking someone to order or to shoot fellow Americans, particularly if unarmed, would definitely be a test. If something like that did happen, we would be entering a second civil war.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibrahim_Traor%C3%A9

https://youtu.be/wq14Vrz7ax0?t=73

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brice_Oligui_Nguema

https://youtu.be/4JU1W6dep_8?t=400

I always wondered why north korea is so stable. I think its a mix of military power, media control and chinese support.

This is not true at all. Where is your source for this claim?

> 250 years ago George Washington could have financed the entire Revolutionary War

Could you provide some support for this claim?

I agree. Too often 'revolutions' are framed as though common people were responsible for it - because it appeals to the modern day 'peasants' ( the 'middle' class and below) ideas of a 'fair' society. They are just pawns in a larger game and they are oblivious to it.

That was a rebellion, not a revolution. The colonial elite broke away from the mother country. They sculpted the eventual legal and political structure to protect their power and privilege without having to pay taxes.

If you're looking for a revolution, better look at the French Revolution or the October Revolution.

Literally all the founding fathers stood to be wealthier by getting the colonies to work with Britain than against it. Like, this is basic fucking math. Dragging armies across the economy you do business in with the end result being you are on your own and can no longer rely on the dominant economic power for protection and trade agreements and whatnot is not how you get fabulously rich if you are already starting from "not peasant".

If you want to look at them through an economic lens the right one to choose is "the founding fathers were rich enough that they knew that even if revolution was bad on a macro level they'd still be filthy rich and wouldn't starve"

>But the poor will not benefit this time either. When things get bad for average people, it's just an opportunity for other rich guys to take the reigns.

I think you need to look at more revolutions. What tends to happen is a shuffling of the people who are already on top and the "HN class" of high end professionals, academics, media personalities, business leaders and other "peasants who are critical to the system" wind up in the gulags or losing their heads because the "fungible peasants" are pissed off at them for really squeezing out every penny until the system collapsed.

They could vote for lefties like Corbyn or Bernie but they don't because things aren't that bad.

If you want to live in a country with rampant poverty, homelessness, crime, etc then go to a country with low or no income tax. If you're not a lord in a feudal society then you're a serf.

One lasted about 70 years, turned a country from "agrarian" to "beat the USA to Earth orbit, put landers on the moon and Venus first, roughly equal nuclear capabilities".

The other big one went from "agrarian" to "makes most of your smartphones, e-readers, etc."

But more than that, if your standard for "marxist" is "Laborer coordination and workforce strikes", then the UK, France, and Germany are currently also Marxist. The UK and France brings the number of permanent UN security council members who are "Marxist" to 3 (not 4, because Russia doesn't have those things today), and those plus Germany are the economic backbone of western Europe.

Also India. They've got two different Communist parties, the split being because one wanted to be more Marxist than the other: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_India_(Marx... vs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_India — but by the standard you use here, the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_National_Congress is also "Marxist", which will probably annoy all three parties for different reasons. Anyway, they also went from "agrarian" (when they kicked my parents' and grandparents' generations out) to "nuclear powered, industrialised, have a space program".

> Yeah, it was able to channel more of the output of the workers into achievements like nuclear weapons and space programs. It didn't put much into things that actually benefitted the workers, though.

Yes, and? I don't feel a need to claim the USSR was in any sense "nice" or "wise" or anything else like that. They were awful in many, many ways.

If my point had been about niceness, I could of course also point out that at the same time, the USA was still in the middle of saying "well obviously black people need to have separate bus seats" and had yet to end redlining policies, while the UK had yet to fully internalise that perhaps the people in the colonies who kept shooting the troops might possibly not like what we had done and were continuing to do with their homes.

But such was never the point I made in the first place.

Think lower on Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

Famine is the default, that everyone used to suffer on a regular basis. The USSR, India, China, these are all countries had all been suffering from mass famines at the start of their industrialisation, and compare them to how Ireland was part of the UK when the potato famine happened: The Soviet famines were 1930–1933 (including Holodomor) and 1946–1947 (which was partly due to WW2 and a need to not look weak due to very legitimate fear of America at that point); the Chinese one was the Great Leap Forward in 1958-62 (the CPC only took power in December 1949); the last really severe Indian famine was 1943, just before the British were made to leave.

Then think of the housing stock. Of electricity. Of plumbing, even (even today, Russia's % of that is pretty low). Pre-industrial societies basically do not have mass plumbing — can't pump sewage away without power. Toothpaste is important, but it's way down the list compared the radical improvements to quality of life that these governments brought their people (which is not to say they therefore are above criticism, they're absolutely fair game for criticism!). Even good nations aren't above criticism, and the USSR wasn't even good. The USSR in particular had huge avoidable problems caused by their own censorship preventing themselves from fully understanding how badly wrong their own policies were.

Even despite all the stuff the USSR did wrong, they still made things a lot better than what came before. (Unlike, say Pol Pot, who was an unmitigated disaster for Cambodia).

That the USSR was, and China now is, able to reach the point of challenging the USA for hegemony, is nevertheless a national success story. Despite both being flawed. Likewise India now having a GDP higher than the UK, even if they're still a long way behind on the per-capita front.

I know you're not the person who responded with that conflation, but if you were, to ask if Lenin would agree with that assessment is a motte-and-bailey fallacy.

To read about people standing up for their rights in a Marxist State read Robert Conquest's 570 pages of 'The Great Terror' - an account of the crimes committed against humanity in the name of the Soviet Communism that emerged from the 1917 revolution. 'We'll do it differently' is the usual response. Sadly this always leaves out appreciation of the human factor whereby charismatic leaders arise and are convinced they know the truth and the way. Before considering a revolution, ensure there's a solution for this human problem of leaders who lead the masses (they regard the latter as such) down a path that in retrospect is seen to be a disaster. Pol Pot, The Great Leap Forward, the Iranian Revolution. We need to sit down and think about this before taking to the streets.

How about evolution rather than 'eggs in one basket' revolution?

I hear much about the latter. The right to freedom of speech vs. the obligation to not defame, to not pump up your own share price, to not leak state secrets, to not openly call for civil wars in foreign countries, etc.

The right to bear arms, vs. the obligation to keep them locked up so kids can't play with them.

While I share your opinion that revolutions are generally bad and messy things, there's plenty of people who think the rich are failing their obligations to the society which gave them the right to own property.

That's the premise of social democrat parties, and the UK Fabian society (named after Roman general Fabius "the delayer") & Labour party!

Revolutions only happen when peaceful change is thwarted.

Of course, America is the least fertile ground for a left revolution. It's in the middle of a right-populist one.

Hence why the illusion of change and propaganda/political marketing is so, so important

Just make sure people are busy believing everything is changing all the time. Wear them out

Just to be clear, are you saying that the French Revolution was done by the rich born into nobility (even if minor)? Even if the rich still had an advantage during the entire turmoil, I think it's hard to argue that for the decades after 1790 that there wasn't a huge boost to social mobility.

I believe it will help me deal with the current doomsday news (and be more stoic in general).

A lot of revolutions were carried out by people with very little resources - Mao led his army from under-developed hills, the October Revolution didn't have much of an industrial base either, nor did the left in the Spanish civil war (although the military eventually won, but hey, they had a fighting chance).

And aside from that, many revolutions happen relatively peacefully. For example Chile or South Africa. Although the latter case did have some violence and property destruction.

And aside from that, guns in the USA (assuming we're talking about this and not Europe) are cheap and plentiful. And a large, determined, but poorly-armed opposition has often beaten the smaller, well-armed forces of decadent states in the past.

Let's hope it doesn't come to that though - even a peaceful movement can succeed if it's widespread.

With the transition from conscripted militaries to autonomous robotic weapons, there will be no more humans refusing to execute orders and no more traitors.

A future revolution will succeed only against a grossly incompetent government.

So, no, there will always be some programmer Chuds willing to write the "kill all the leftists/organizers" functionality.

And they will sleep soundly.

It's one of the refreshing things about the crazy rightoids of late, how they emphasize how their larp revolution will cash out and retire enemies of the state.

But here on HN we get ESL-Occupy Wallstreet jeremiads that'd make Sorel blush.

That’s a rather skewed take. You might see what Washington himself said about becoming that leader.

https://www.gilderlehrman.org/history-resources/spotlight-pr...

George Washington wasn’t a signer of the Declaration of Independence either, so this idea that he concocted the revolution for personal gain is silly. He was appointed to lead the Continental Army by John Adams because of Washington’s military experience and his being from Virginia which was an asset in unifying the colonies.

This suggests that taxing the slaves would have better helped the poor. Was it helping them before the war? Were the poor suddenly worse off because of the revolution?

> it's just an opportunity for other rich guys to take the reigns.

Do George Washington's heirs control a significant portion of today's wealth?

Whether things may get better for the poor or may not isn’t so much the point as I see it. The observation here is that the poor, and their anger, become pawns for the games of elites. Sometimes those games benefit them where an elite acts as a benevolent avatar of their anger, but this is usually a transient faux-alliance because the elite calls the shots and has no genuine interest in a positive outcome for the poor they claim to represent.

Won't happen in a society where elders are more numerous than young. In the past it required a lot of young males thinking they have not much to lose, but they are becoming extinct.

Old people won't revolt, middle-aged fathers that need to think of their children and mortgage won't revolt.

But don't you think that your (grand)parents may have been more motivated due to having children and grandchildren? Now, why an old, childless lady or man, living on pension, would take risks, especially when they lived their life watching things taking shape? Again, some will act on principles they believe in, but such people are always a minority. And I doubt people in age of your (grand)parents constituted a bulk of protesters.

I am from Poland. When mass workers protests were happening under communist regime, age median was under 30 yrs. Today it is over 40 yrs. Even excluding other aspects (like liberal ideology taking a firm hold here, and real economic growth that happened since), people today are much more complicit, and much less willing to take direct action, even if today's government is much less likely to beat you to death in jail.

If you are a landless peasant you know if you are being too heavily taxes - you can see how much the land produces. People have no idea whether they are overpaying for food at the end of a long supply chain, let alone for technology.

Another factor is when you are paying for many things, its only worth worrying about the most expensive as the others are relatively trivial. Compared to housing and utilities the rest is hardly worth thinking about.

That said, the subscriptions do keep growing. But, in fairness, most cloud services have ongoing cost to the business, so ongoing consumer costs make sense.

I’m sorry, I don’t know how old you are, but I’m sure if you look back, you can think of examples in your own life too. But again, it’s just a stupid thought that I live with, and try not to compare current affairs to something in the past for that reason.

In all of those phases, safety and health of yourself and beloved ones are likely at the top of your needs. Is there a contradiction to your ideals when you were young (unless you went all in on YOLO)?

edit: Maybe it’s about the inclination towards uprise/revolution which might result in oppression and danger for those you want to protect. In that case: I don’t see why some kind of apocalyptic revolution must be part of the cycle mentioned in the top post. Maybe I’m still naive, but I still have hopes that we will get to sustainable terms on this planet.

I don’t think any of them were my priority when I was under 20. Health of my beloved ones became more important only recently, as my parents are way older now as well. And older people, on average, are more likely to have significant others to care about and etc.

But yeah, less time and thoughts on how to change the world and etc. as well. I’m not really sure how to explain it, if I’ll be honest, sorry. Just 10 years ago I was a different person. 20 years ago, I was even more different than today.

It's not so much "inequality is evil" (tho he surely think so), but rather "inequality breeds catastrophic revolutions".

Source? I have some doubts about this claim. Are you sure this doesn't simply measure one form of labor while ignoring another?

Inequality doesn’t matter really nowadays. There will be no revolution as most of people are out of poverty despite what narration on the internet is.

Living conditions as today day poor person are immensely better than 18 or 19th century peasants.

Whoever has billions does not affect me having running water in faucets and me enjoying life.

Warm water is not all there is to life but it is a lot.

Whether or not people are in subsistence poverty is not the only measure of a functioning society. It's great that extreme poverty is going down, but let's not declare Mission Accomplished just yet. The existence of billionaires might not affect your running water, but it does distort the market and negatively affect how much everything around you costs, from housing to healthcare to groceries. The existence of billionaires also affects your share of power in democracy. A billionaire is right now, running amok, griefing workers and tearing down institutions. All because his billions bought him the power to do that.

You might change your "billionaires existing doesn't bother me" Enlightened Apathy if they one day kill a government service you rely on or decide your job must end because they need double digit stock growth again this year.

The delta can increase and QOL across all incomes increase (albit different rates).

If the people here just want 100% equality, just state it as intention.

I think people should stop fetishizing billionaires one way or the other.

Right now it looks like wealth is self-enforcing. Across certain thresholds, you can get an expert or have the network to help with your taxes, legal issues, investment strategy and so on. Maybe you even inherited it all from your parents. There are certainly prominent counter examples of people who crossed these thresholds with their own hard work. The majority of people does not.

And nuclear. We have yet to see our first nuclear civil war.

_very_ slightly edited from its original.

For a more snappier version, see this video by a former professor of history, university of Wisconsin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqsBx58GxYY

People's wealth were more geographically locked and tied to land back then.

I disagree, people were even more brainwashed in the past since their only source of information was what the church and the king would tell them (Plato's cave allegory) while now you have a plethora of independent unbiased sources of information plus leaks and whistleblowers out in the open to thanks to the internet and social media.

Sure, you have a lot of fake news and propaganda today form the mainstream and social media, but back then it was all exclusively fake news and propaganda, as only the ruling elites had the truth and they'd never share that with the peasants, while any peasantry who dared speaking the truth that went against the official narrative would be punished for heresy. That's why Europe spent so much time in the dark ages and the advent of freedom of thought also brought in the Renaissance era.

>When the brain is chained, there is no hope for a revolution.

I disagree, people in the west today have a lot more freedom of information and freedom of speech than in the distant past. Well, unless you live in the UK or Germany where the police arrests you for posting a meme online about a politician, try to ban encrypted chat and sources of information they consider "hateful" in order to control the narrative and restrict the population to only vote for the entrenched establishment.

The pendulum metaphor fails often; here are some examples where it cannot make sensible predictions: species level extinction; major technological shifts; the overall growth of economies (upward), the growth of attitudes around human rights.

Why does the pendulum metaphor fail? It has no explanatory ability to handle non-cyclic things. Mathematically, it has too few degrees of freedom and a poor functional form.

How often does the pendulum argument make a testable prediction? Is there a prediction of _when_ something will happen? Is there a scientific study (or even statistical analysis) of the underlying factors?

The pendulum argument often serves as some kind of wishful thinking; just wait, it says, and things will (somehow) “swing back” to the middle. For a while, at least, until there is some kind of overreaction.

Enough. Let’s call bullsh-t on this vague metaphor. There are better ways of thinking.

(In contrast, the statistical concept of “reversion to the mean” is a mathematical fact. Using it when observing real world data helps us assess the nature of the underlying statistical distributions.)

at no time has there been a good outcome from which this change made.

The people who applied the force merely swapped with those who had wealth. Essentially, they wanted the wealth, and co-opted the masses to enable themselves.

What we have today is relatively good. Just because you see some billionaire who have more yachts than you could ever hope to own, doesn't mean you aren't living a good life. At least the french revolution was in part about lack of food and starvation. I dont see america starving.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/hunger-us-continued-multi-y...

> Hunger reached its highest point in the United States in nearly a decade last year, with 18 million households, or 13.5%, struggling at some point to secure enough food, a Department of Agriculture report released on Wednesday said.

https://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/food-nutrition-assistance/fo...

https://www.feedingamerica.org/hunger-in-america

I mean, sure, they are not "staring", it's only hunger...

unless you're in the bottom 50%

> I dont see america starving.

True, but starvation is a pretty low bar; obesity and all the related health problems due to an unhealthy diet (because garbage is the cheapest food and what the bottom 50% can afford in the US) is the modern version of starvation

People who voted for trump aren’t even aware he’s part of the problem of wealth inequality. They aren’t even aware wealth inequality is the problem.

At worst we will get an angry mob stampeding the White House with no real direction or objective. Are rich people the problem or is it the government? They may have a feeling "something" is wrong, but they aren't sure what it is or who to blame, or they may think that nothing is wrong and life is just hard.

When a poor person votes for a ultra rich person that it is completely against the poor persons self interest because the rich person will make policy to favor himself as a rich person rather then others as poor people.

I hate extremist liberalism too and this is completely orthogonal to that.

Recommend the read of "Psychopolitics", "The Crisis of Narration", and "In the Swarm", those books eloquently described feelings I've had since the social media boom of mid-2010s. We are living through a data totalitarianism, missing overarching concepts in the noise of never-ending additive data that never concludes into a larger concept for us to grasp, just pure bombardment of more information without having any respite to put all of that together in a sense of deeper knowledge, to understand the world we are actually living in.

So many people outraged but very few offering any context or insightful suggestions. Assisted by social media insane demand for controversy and dispute ( even without bad actors tweaking the algorithms), there seems very difficult for the sane rational voices to gain attention.

> "The shitstorm," writes Han, "represents an authentic phenomenon of digital communication."

This phenomenon, he states, is also a cause for the lack of proper politicking in the era of digital communication, since everyone can participate in a fleeting "shitstorm" there's no lingering narrative to keep the discourse on, internalise it, and enact change; people just move from shitstorm to shitstorm, each outrage is very ephemeral, and shit-flinging cannot enact any change or deeper discourse about the root causes that caused said shitstorm. Again, information is just additive and leaves no space for closing back on itself in a more general concept to be discussed about.

The "flood the zone" strategy seems to just attach itself to this quality of digital communication, using the ephemeral, narrativeless information to continuously drive an agenda, moving our attention into an ethereal moving target, we never get any sense of closure.

> "Meanwhile, the public, the senders and receivers of these communications have become a digital swarm -- not a mass, or a crowd, or Negri and Hardt's antiquated notion of a "multitude," but a set of isolated individuals incapable of forming a "we," incapable of calling dominant power relations into question, incapable of formulating a future because of an obsession with the present. The digital swarm is a fragmented entity that can focus on individual persons only in order to make them an object of scandal.

That and red states having an aversion to education.

- People who are cruel are not fit to make important decisions in human society

- The most important quality in a human's life is dignity

- There needs to be a return to spirituality and philosophy, away from religion and tribalism

These ideas if contemplated and thought through on an individual and collective levels would undo much of what makes modern living unpleasant and bring about some wonderful new perks :)

Also I’m not referring to people who voted for the lesser of two evils.

It seems like a symptom. Primarily because "wealth management" does seem to be a skill. So the expectation would be that even if you equalized all wealth tomorrow and suddenly educated everyone to the same level in it's management then in a very short time a large imbalance would again be created.

> but they aren't sure what it is or who to blame,

It's impossible to acknowledge that both of you are most likely equally wrong but just in different directions? If you worked together you'd get much further yet you can't even grant them basic personal agency. What a bummer. Inequality abounds.

Citation needed. This seems highly implausible.

Wealth is mostly inherited, and amassed over generations. The wealthy become more wealthy because they already have wealth. If you take that away, all those wealth management skills matter a lot less.

"from rags to rags in three generations" etc...

"Wealth inequality" in the sense that there are several billion people and the net worth of each and every one of them is not exactly the same? That can't be it.

"Wealth inequality is increasing over time" seems like it could be a bad thing, but if that's the problem then what's the cause? Let's consider how that happens:

When you buy something for $100, part of that money goes to labor (the employees who made or distributed it etc.) and part goes to capital (the investors who own the company). Employees generally spend all of their income, so that's not an issue. As it turns out, so do most investors, by population count, because most businesses are small businesses. The owner of the local salon might be getting a dividend from the place but she's using that to buy groceries.

Then there's Larry Ellison. Screw that guy, am I right? Somehow that asshole has more money than it would take to buy the entirety of Boeing with enough left over to buy General Motors and Halliburton put together. And he's not spending it fast enough to make the number go down instead of up.

But wait, how did that happen? He definitely didn't end up with $200B by investing $100 in the Dow and letting it compound for 50 years.

His company did, however, get billions of dollars in government contracts and in general makes its money by selling copyright licenses to its 50 year old database software. In fact, if you look at the list of companies minting all of these billionaires, they're almost all tech companies, relying on a government-granted copyright monopoly that originally expired after 14 years.

And if you look at the ones that aren't tech, they're drug companies (another government-granted monopoly and an industry that has thoroughly captured the regulators) and finance companies (possibly the only industry with more regulatory capture than medicine).

From this we can notice a trend. You get billionaires when the laws impair competition in their industry and the industry consolidates into megacorps. So that's the cause. That's what you need to prevent.

I think the competition idea works at the level of a country if people by and large play by the rules (a big if).

It does not work at the level of macro economics.

If you (as a country) insist on competition and absence of mega corps in your country while a country next to you subsidizes mega corps that outcompete your smaller companies - you will lose.

Thus in a world of competition, every country will strive to get nuclear weapons to be able to compete militarily and then given that we're human, we will have conflict sooner or later and it will result in nuclear holocaust.

If you think fair enough but nuclear holocaust is just the price we pay and it's worth it to continue doing competition, then alright.

I don't think it's worth it, so there needs to be a fundamental re-think how we approach these problems.

---

Regarding wealth inequality specifically - I agree with Aristotle who made the distinction of Aristocracy vs Oligarchy. Aristocracy being the rule of the few for the common interest and Oligarchy being rule of the few for the interest of the rulers.

Somebody will rule, it's the intention and overall direction that matters. I'm not sure that just re-distributing wealth addresses the problem - it does strike me as something an Aristocracy would surely do if one were to appear, so that much is well and good.

The assumption here is that megacorps are a competitive advantage. Let's look at a counterexample.

Suppose solar manufacturing is a growth industry. China wants to dominate it, so they subsidize it. Is there now a single megacorp in China that makes all the solar panels? No, it's a competitive industry there, but because of the subsidies that industry outcompetes the industries in other countries, with the result that China as a whole makes 80% of the world's solar panels. Others can't compete because of the subsidies, not because of a monopolist. Or, after the subsidies have existed for long enough, because the whole supply chain ends up in that country and other countries don't have the local knowledge or infrastructure to even do it anymore. So that kind of subsidization is a problem, but it's a different problem and "you need your own megacorps" is no solution.

Now let's go back to Oracle. How is it that they make so much money? The premise of copyright is you get a temporary monopoly in exchange for creating something and that allows you to recover your costs. Originally this was 14 years; it's not so temporary anymore. Also, the premise was that you sell a copy and get money and then if you want more money you need to create more works.

How does Oracle actually work? They don't sell you a copy, they sell you a license. The law allowing this was a choice, and a bad one. Having a monopoly isn't illegal under the antitrust laws; abusing one is. But doing that with the copyright monopoly is largely ignored, which is what license terms more restrictive than the copyright statue do. So instead of buying some database software for a one-time fee and then being able to use it as long as you're satisfied with that version of it, you get a temporary license that expires if you stop paying a recurring fee. Meanwhile your data is now in a proprietary database with high costs to extricate it, so you're locked in.

Is Oracle then out-competing all of their smaller competitors? Not really. Tons of people use Postgres or MariaDB or SQLite, and there are several other proprietary databases as well. But Oracle still gets to stick it to all the organizations that are locked in to Oracle, because the industry lobbied for laws that allow them to.

And then you also see Oracle sticking it to organizations in e.g. Europe. Is that because Oracle's size allows them to outcompete smaller companies this time? No, the same competitors are still there, it's because Europe has similar laws that allow the company screw their customers in similar ways, instead of limiting copyright to the selling of copies.

By contrast, if you look at something like Visa and Mastercard, that's a major duopoly in the US. And those cards are accepted in many other countries, but they often have competitors there, when those countries have laws that facilitate competition. Because the companies get big by laws that thwart competition, but when that's their advantage, the advantage doesn't stick where those laws don't exist. If anything it puts them at a disadvantage because being insulated from competitive pressure domestically makes them unresponsive and inefficient.

Which is why corporations are always lobbying to have the laws that prop up their concentrated markets enshrined into international treaties.

> Somebody will rule

This is the assumption most in need of being challenged. "There must be a king" is a fallacy. There will either be a king, or there will be a population of people dedicated to preventing anyone from establishing a throne.

The latter is what you get from a system of well-devised checks and balances, one of which is competitive markets. Emphasis on competitive.

I don't think you've tackled the problem of if we're playing competition and they build nukes, we need to build nukes. It's a zero sum game and the result is nuclear holocaust.

Do you disagree with the premise and if not, what is your proposed solution?

Regarding there must be a king - I think it'd be helpful if you could summarize your political stance in a few short sentences. I'm worried that we'll be hopelessly lost discussing minutia otherwise.

ps. I've been here a while and always been a fan of your comments :)

The premise that they did would be something like, Android. Google has 90% market share in search and makes their money from cloud services and ads. They give away Android for free and then tie it to their services through the network effect of the Play Store and remote attestation. Competition for mobile operating systems is thereby destroyed because to compete with Android you'd have to compete with something free while overcoming a strong network effect, and if you somehow started to then Google has billions of dollars to pour into Android to make sure you can't succeed. Therefore their only competition is from Apple, another megacorp. How is your local market for competing operating systems supposed to thrive in this environment? You're screwed.

But you're not vaporized, you're still allowed to have your own laws. So suppose you're the EU, or you're the US and Google is hypothetically a foreign company, but you want to respond in a way other than just getting your own megacorp.

You would have stronger antitrust laws. Contracts to enforce the business models of these companies would be totally unenforceable in your jurisdiction. App store can't be tied to the device or the use of any other services, remote attestation is forbidden because it prevents the user's bank app from working on a competing device, etc. Absolutely no respect in the law for any attempt to enforce vertical integration. Copyright laws that require source code to be distributed to the customer with any software, to aid in reverse engineering and adversarial interoperability. Violations have penalties with teeth, like invalidating the company's patents and copyrights.

Then the small competitors in your jurisdiction have a chance. Someone can make an Android fork that can use any app in the Play Store and fund development by auctioning off the defaults for search engine or cloud services. Android forks which are actually developed as open source instead of just having the code thrown over the wall start to become popular there, and support multiple app stores which also start to become popular. Once they build enough of a network effect, people outside your jurisdiction start to use them. Meanwhile the people in the other jurisdiction(s) still beleaguered by the oligopoly start to look at your market with jealousy and erode support for the status quo there too.

Why do you think Apple is so intent on fighting the Digital Markets Act? It's not a perfect law by any means but the thing it's attempting to do is valid and if it succeeds, Apple is going to have more competition, which they're worried about precisely because it's a thing that could actually happen.

> Regarding there must be a king - I think it'd be helpful if you could summarize your political stance in a few short sentences. I'm worried that we'll be hopelessly lost discussing minutia otherwise.

There is always going to be a government, or something that acts like one. To prevent there from being a king, the government has to do two things: 1) Prevent competing governments from forming (of which monopolies or highly concentrated markets are an instance) and 2) Not Be a Tyrant.

The first one in terms of markets is a set of rules that keep market barriers to entry low and prohibit monopolistic practices etc. The second is a set of checks and balances within the government that constrain the thing with a monopoly on violence from itself being used for empire building or private advantage.

Designing this well is, obviously, hard, but nevertheless it's the thing to do.

> I've been here a while and always been a fan of your comments

I spend too much time here.

https://xkcd.com/386/

What is wealth when everyone is fed, watered and entertained?

Only stating this as an explanation to why there has not been a civil revolution. People are still dying in poverty with no way to escape every day, and we need to address it.

There is more to life than autonomous vacuum cleaners and possibility of having a talk with your light bulb.

But to be serious - yes, many things have improved, yet we re losing many others.

And there are many more of such indicators!

This "we are all better off" is partially true but helps to neglect valid criticism.

Do you really understand just how unequal it is? Most Americans vastly underestimate it [0]. And that's from 2013; inequality has rapidly worsened since. Do you understand the effects of that inequality?

> look at how much better the human quality of life is compared to even 50 years ago.

I don't think this is true.

There is quality of life in owning a house, a family house. There is quality of life in having job security. There is quality of life in feeling safe letting your kids go outside in an urban environment. There is quality of life in not having record proportions of your populace behind bars. There is quality of life in being able to weather illness without filing for medical bankruptcy. There is quality of life in being able to support a family with an average wage. Etc.

0 - https://web.archive.org/web/20191016221950/http://www.people...

(I'm sure the parent isn't in this category, so I'm speaking in general.)

But the above blog post and study you linked to are misleading as well. For instance, wealth gets vastly skewed by age. The average net worth for people 65-75 is almost 10 times the average net worth of someone under 35[1]. For anyone who knows anything about investing, this isn't very surprising. Steady investment will cause people's savings to grow drastically from when they start to when they retire. A vulgar look at the numbers can have people saying "person A has 10 times the wealth of person B!", without considering that person B will also reach the level of person A when they get to the same age.

That's not to say that age alone would simply explain all of the inequality in society, but it's a major factor and an example of why you need to actually dive into the data rather than running with the baseline numbers. When it gets ignored it's likely people are pushing a polemic and aren't genuinely interested in what's happening.

[1] https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/finance/average-net-worth...

Is that because they're older? Or is it because when 70 yo's were young they could go through college on part time work, buy a house with an average wage, and then have that house skyrocket in value because housing was turned into an investment vehicle?

Dig into those statistics, and look at how much of the €400k net worth is tied up in their homes, homes which they owned outright at 25-27 years old. That's unimaginable today. People that age are living with their parents.

Look at those statistics and compare the median to the average - the distribution is extremely skewed - you could even call it 'unequal'. 'Record levels of inequality' even.

Age isn't as much of a factor as the 'nerdwallet' blog seems to think; and to the degree to which it is, is a natural consequence of having had more time to work and invest during a boom period, then having a certain generation and class of people 'pull up the ladder' after them.

Honest question, but do you know much about investing? The investment curve isn't linear. Someone making steady contributions should have around 10 times the amount of wealth at age 67 than they do at age 30 [1].

Millennials have more wealth than previous generations _at_ _the_ _same_ _age_[2]. Generation Z is earning even more than millennials _at_ _the_ _same_ _age_[3].

If you have evidence for why we should dismiss age cohorts, feel free to share it. All of the data I've seen shows that it's extremely important, and people who intentionally ignore it are pushing a narrative that doesn't match reality.

[1] https://www.fidelity.com/viewpoints/retirement/how-much-do-i... [2] https://www.economist.com/finance-and-economics/2024/04/16/g... [3] https://www.economist.com/finance-and-economics/2024/04/16/g...

What part of that justifies or explains away record inequality?

> Millennials have more wealth than previous generations _at_ _the_ _same_ _age_[2]. Generation Z is earning even more than millennials _at_ _the_ _same_ _age_[3].

Hm - might that be because they live with their parents and can't afford kids? Or because they're sharing an apartment with 5 other people, and having a lot less fun in their life (aka, quality of life).

And are we ignoring the difference between average and median when cherry-picking statistics?

> If you have evidence for why we should dismiss age cohorts, feel free to share it.

My argument isn't that we should ignore age. I never said that. No one said that.

It's that even accounting for age, however you want to do that, there's an extremely problematic level of inequality.

America has 10 million hungry children. Half a million people claim medical bankruptcy every year. There's no excuse for that - and now a cabal of billionaires is gutting Medicaid to help pay for a $4tn tax break mostly for the top 1%.

As of 2023, the top 1% of U.S. households held 30% of the nation's wealth, while the bottom 50% possessed just 2.6%.

This is all deeply psychotic. It's perverse and abnormal in the extreme; and no, it's not explained away by age demographics. It's very intentional bipartisan policy, inflicted against the will of a large majority of Americans.

You can't separate these things and expect the world to make sense. When the ultra-wealthy capture too much of the levers of power, and strip-mine all our potential just to get a bit more in a bid for total control, quality of life for humanity suffers.

We've been suffering for it, as I explained above, and we're going to see a lot more of the same. House prices could double in the next 5 years. Even if you own a house or 6 and think that's just great, society will suffer and quality of life will fall.

You might think that owning houses, starting families, clean water, living oceans, a habitable biosphere and healthy division of power don't affect quality of life, but I promise you, they do. And those things are suffering, because of the level of inequality we have reached.

... Let's say, being generous and ignoring a lot of negative externalities, that we actually have improved average quality of life by 10% over the last 50 years. Put that in context - productivity has doubled. Where did all the difference go? ... And what are the beneficiaries of this wealth doing with that money?

The level of inequality is huge, and rising rapidly. That comes with a very serious level of existential threat to life on Earth itself; not just its quality.

0 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCnImxVWbvc&t=1s

The US puts too much emphasis on homeownership for wealth creation.

And in the case of the US, you have people who willingly vote against their interest by demonizing other groups.

So yeah before we say: "it always looks like this, it's just about what the parameters are", we need to measure it and have a clearer idea of what it looks like in different societies otherwise we won't be able to decide what the desirable parameters are like.

Doing so conveys sloppy thinking while pretending to be rigorous only on the surface.

The alternative is returning to a feudal gilded age where there are a very very small cabal of asset owning lords, a very small class of scribes for the lords, and then a sea of serfs.

The whole concept of wealth accumulation is entirely human-made, and influenced by what the society is willing to tolerate.

It only becomes a problem if people are miserable, the palace stops being a beautiful landmark and becomes a symbol of oppression.

Back to stocks, I think there is absolutely nothing wrong with the top 10% owning 87% of the stocks (in the US, because apparently, the rest of the world doesn't exist...). The stock market is risky, that's really a thing for those who have all their basic needs covered and can afford to lose big. Owning stock i.e. investing in companies is also among the most best things to society the rich can do, compared to, say, building palaces for themselves.

All that to say that if some causes are worth revolting against, I just don't think inequality in stock ownership is one of them.

Think about young people trying to buy their 1st home now, its becoming impossible.

I keep "my money" in a few different places. I keep a spreadsheet and every 1st of the month I 'do the rounds' and add the numbers of deposits, investments, '401k', etc. so I keep an eye on my 'net worth' on a monthly basis. When COVID happened and I saw that SP500 tanked, I bought more than my typical 'monthly purchase'.

Now, I am a nobody and worth a little. Someone who had $50m in the bank, well connected, and with access to info, 'went in' for x1000 what I did, at a better timed entry and left at a better timed exit made big bucks.

I am definitely part of the top 1% (8b people --> 80m)(considering that majority of the planet lives 'poor')(my definition of 'poor' was redefined when I visited the Philippines and saw a family of 4 live in a carton box from a fridge).

"We" here in HN (most of us) are in that 10% of the global population, whether we like it or not. And it's not because "everyone living in the EU is rich", it's more like in so many countries for majority of the people their income is well below $upper-tripple-digits.

Absolutely enormous amounts of money.

Look, I am all for hatin' the big man when he deserves it and he often does, but lets be a bit smart and not just throw random angry spits without checking the facts, shall we?

Do you even realize that during covid globally money lost some 20-30% of their purchasing power? That's real burning cash of regular folks right in front of you and everybody else.

Meanwhile, the insiders who knew what was going on (that the packaged mortgages were super high risk) insured their risk through new financial products - specifically 'credit default swaps' marked by AIG. The gimmick there was that AIG designed the swaps in a way that avoided insurance reserve regulations - and thus AIG had no money set aside in the event of default.

So when the shit hit the fan taxpayers coughed up close to 200 billion dollars to cover the 'swaps' sold by AIG that were backed by ... nothing.

A fair number of billionaires rose out of the ashes of those shenanigans. None were ever charged. That's how 'capitalism' works in the gold old USA. Always has. Always will.