I wonder how many people have literally been injured or died due to this pursuit for better "design". And it applies not only to touch screen (which is a total madness), but to real buttons as well - those buttons need not only to be physical, but have different form/some tactile differentiation.

What's happening with touch screens is total mess due to car designers trying to circumvent regulations (e.g., can't have that screen in front of a driver, or projected over the windshield) - so they are forced to move it to a side, which makes operating it while driving more dangerous.

But even button's design is falling prey of it, with buttons hidden way below the top of the dashboard, made of the same size, etc. It takes forever to scan & find the right button (e.g. internal air) while driving.

And I don't see it as just some recent trend (although there's much more of it). Even 10-12 years ago, this way already a problem.

One example of stupidity: Toyota Sienna 2013 has brightness control for its media screen (which also shows back up camera) via a touch screen button. Turning brightness at night works ok - but then turning it back on during day light is impossible - nothing is visible on that dimmed screen!! Latest Toyota Sienna has all of the climate control buttons (8?) in 1 row, very low, of the same size, barely visible signs on them - recipe for disaster...

I wish these designers and execs would have their kids life depend on it - I wonder if that'd change their thinking...

My wife’s 2015 Honda has a similar setup for the climate controls. One morning the windshield fogged up after a few minutes of driving when the cabin was warming up on a cold day. Not being my daily driver, I had to look low on the dash to find the defogger button, while driving in the rain. Nothing bad happened, but I remember feeling a little helpless in the moment. That nothing went wrong was really just pure luck.

You could always have pulled over.

Once I was driving on a highway, in the left lane, in heavy traffic, entering a tunnel at some 140kmh, when due to enormous temperature and humidity difference literally blanked out all my windows and windshield. The tunnel had no ventilation and was filled with fog as well. It was literally as if someone hit a switch that turned off my screen. I started braking, turned in emergency light and toggled windshield fan all in less than a second. You could hear other people's tires screeching around me as well. I was in many hard situations on road and in life, but this was blood chilling. I hate to think what would happen if I wasn't able to get my windshield clear again so fast. I drove blindly for 2-3 seconds in a tunnel at 140kmh mate. No pulling over, no stopping with hazards on since guy behind you probably can't see you either.

Surely you see the issue here. Slowing to a stop with your hazards is by far the safest option and you dismissed because of a lack of driver competence.

You still have to see where you're going to pull over, and it's not always possible.

You can always slow to a stop with your hazards on.

I rail against touch and ambiguous controls in safety critical applications more than most, but continuing to drive when you can't see properly is akin to get-there-itis.

> You can always slow to a stop with your hazards on.

With low visibility slowing down in the middle of the road is not save either though, given that those behind you don't expect it, and that few people keep sufficient distance. Same with standing on the side in such conditions.

In the described situation I think the best option is to be able and use the right buttons quickly, sticking to the original subject of the discussion. The option that would let you safely keep going with the flow is the best one I would say, under the given conditions.

Even if a million scenarios and alternatives can be thought of, what's the point of derailing a discussion focused on a particular subject? We only have a few hundred comments of room here, I think there is more value in keeping the focus.

The discussion isnt derailed, it branched off. The point is to bring up an adjacent point.

And while the ideal scenario is of course that no problem arises, and second being that the problem is swiftly and efficiently resolved.. given those scenarios do not occur, and you have to decide between "keep going without seeing the road" and "putting hazards on and slowly coming to a complete stop", the latter definitely seems more reasonable in every way.

Of course specific scenarios where stopping will be less safe can be thought up, but statistically speaking, I dont see how an uncontrolled multi-ton moving object would be more safe that a stationary one.

> In the described situation I think the best option is to be able and use the right buttons quickly, sticking to the original subject of the discussion.

Yes, obviously, but poorly designed or failed equipment does not absolve you of your responsibility to drive safely.

> Even if a million scenarios and alternatives can be thought of, what's the point of derailing a discussion focused on a particular subject?

The topic is road safety and the point is both pertinent and revealing. The attitude in your comment and others are highlighting basic failures in driver training, independent of the equipment design.

Honestly, I think you should reflect on your attitude here before you end up a road traffic statistic.

Nothing you've said is valid or solves the problem any better than what they originally said. The problem has already happened and remains a problem regardless what the driver attempts to do about it at that point.

You are already operating the vehicle in traffic in bad conditions for yourself and everyone else, and still need to be able to operate the vehicle and still need to be able to see no matter which of the possible reactions you believe is least-risk at that particular time.

Whether you judge that the least-risk response is to turn on hazards and slow down or even stop right in the road where other drivers who you can not see are not expecting it, whether you can find a place to pull over and see it clearly enough to be absolutely sure there is not a child standing there, or to make no changes to current behavior at all so that you are the most predictable to everyone else, you still need to be able to operate the vehicle and see the road and other vehicles in order to do any of those. None of your suggestions gets around that, even coming to a full stop with hazards on.

Your theory also depends on other drivers to see you and your hazards. Where is the hazard control? This whole discussion is about poor controls.

Even if they did exactly what you who were not there presumes to declare they should have done, it doesn't change anything. It doesn't change the problem or solve the problem or work around the problem.

>> Yes, obviously, but poorly designed or failed equipment does not absolve you of your responsibility to drive safely.

I agree with you on this -- but that is not how people behave. Just because people should behave that way, doesnt mean they do. People have a natural inclination to try and fix the problem by giving up a bit of attention -- that is bad for all of us who are affected by these decisions -- and this means -- fix the design.

If drivers feel compelled to take their eyes off the road for extended periods to locate critical controls, it doesn’t matter if they could have made other choices. The safe choice should be easy or it’s a bad user interface.

You could, and hear me out because I know it could be super difficult to do…move one arm a little bit and wipe away some of the fogging so you can see where you are going to pull over…

Why are people so exceptional lazy that they would put other people at risk while they wait for a machine to do something for them, rather than reaching up and wiping away some of the condensation so they can safely operate the vehicle? Are people really this astonishingly incompetent?

Yes, you could. This doesn't make touch control for basic features any better.

On highway, in dense traffic? Sure you can put the car in emergency lane, but that's a risky place to be increasing risk of accident on its own, plus traffic police comes immediately if they see you / are called for such car.

Another situation - narrow intercity winding roads, 0 room for safe stopping of car for next 2km. Again, asking for a crash especially in situation when your windshield fogs which is usually during heavier rain.

Yet another situation - driving in even semi-dense traffic in any bigger city. Again, no place to just stop and block others safely.

I could go on for a while. Not always the smartest move.

I'm somewhat disturbed by the idea that anyone would think that you shouldn't stop when "driving in even semi-dense traffic in any bigger city" if you can't see. Of course you should slowly come to a halt and put warning slights on to give people time to react, but not coming to a stop in such a situation seems at the very least highly negligent. Sure, stopping in the middle of the road will be annoying to other drivers, but it's generally preferred to annoy people over killing them.

Do you drive a car and did such a situation happen to you, in situations I describe?

It did happen to me in dense traffic, there are few ways to mitigate it but stopping in multilane road for anything but a serious medical condition or car dying would be about weighting which risk is greater, this is not about annoying somebody but safety. If I had 0 visibility through windshield and nothing else helped, in lower speed I would pop my head out a bit for example (which would clear the windshield too).

But maybe you don't drive around many french drivers :) They run very aggressively with minimal gaps, and our roads (and parking spaces) are much narrower than US ones for example. You have to drive at the limit, whole crowd always does.

Not always of course, but I dont understand this reasoning. For every example you give, one can make up a different one where stopping would yield a better outcome.

I do believe though that if we took literally all possible scenarios and weighed them by the probability of them occuring, the results would show that a stopped vehicle is safer than a moving vehicle whose driver can not see.

In all those cases, it is safer to come to a stop - an action advertised by your brake lights - than to continue on without proper visibility.

In fact, I feel confident in saying that based on this comment, you are an unsafe driver and should voluntarily undertake remedial training, as you are unfit to be on the road.

Sounds to me like Material design/theme in software UIs. Very flat, sometimes cannot see what is a button and very little feedback, compared to those Windows 98 style buttons, or default browser buttons.

> to this pursuit for better "design"

Quotes appropriate, because I don't believe this is about safety, usability, or even aesthetics. It's about reducing the number of parts on the vehicle, i.e. lowering cost. It's car manufacturers deliberately making driving less safe to save a few bucks.

No quotes, just my observation - that the buttons are more optimized for the good look (symmetrical, sleek) vs usable. Building a plastic molding form with some shape/tactile difference shouldn't be significantly more expensive.

Re Touch screen, I agree - that's pure cost cutting. But that's just crazy. I'm surprised regulators are not preventing it.

Thank you. I think lots of people assume touch controls are for design, or to be cool, or maybe just "modern". It's just cheaper, though. That's why you see them on all generic Chinese made electronics (even stuff that could have no electronic component at all, like a fan).

>I wonder how many people have literally been injured or died due to this pursuit for better "design".

One famous example is Anton Yelchin, who played Chekov in the new Star Trek movies. The new Jeep shifter design made it less obvious whether you put it in neutral or park, and so it rolled toward him when he got out and pinned him to death.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36572649

He was also in a movie with Patrick Stewart.

This is awful news to me. I've driven a wagoneer that had the spinning knob for the shifter, and yeah, I wasn't a fan.

Green Room (2015). Yelchin was a talented guy and (would have) had a solid career. Patrick Stewart is also cast well against type in that flick.

It's great to see this change in direction.

I had the opportunity to drive a Tesla recently, and I was pretty blown away by how hostile the ux was. Even the indicator stalk has no tactile feedback leading to me indicating left then right multiple times after completing a simple lane change (as I pushed it slightly too far for the lane change mode so it didn't shut off automatically). Don't get me started on things like the AC and window wipers being behind the touchscreen, it's like they designed it to require a copilot.

It's driver aid features also get easily tricked leading to random steering corrections and slamming on the brakes. I'd love to know if anyone's analyzed the rate of rear end collisions compared to older/simpler cars, as I suspect it could be statistically higher.

It was also fairly amusing parking it in the garage - it seemed to mistake our dog for a motorbike and the other vehicle as a truck with the 3 of us colliding, glad it didn't try and automatically phone in the "collisions"

Teslas are 100% about cost-cutting. Flimsy, cheap, uncomfortable - but they do make those goofy spaceship noises! The lack of normal knobs, buttons, and stalks is just more of the cost-cutting.

It baffles me that they were ever considered “luxury” cars except as to price.

I own a Tesla and I've never considered it a luxury car. It's a high-tech car.

I love my Model 3 but the lack of a rain sensor is just dumb cost cutting

I always joke about that to my buddy when I'm driving in his M3. Be the sunniest nicest day out, the wipers will randomly turn on going crazy.

I call them sunwipers.

Funnily this happens only in my model 3, not my X (I bought them before Elon went crazy). Both have automatic wipers on.

My gas car turns on the wipers sometimes when the sun shines on the sensor just right. Like a photic sneeze. Of course it cost about a quarter of a new Tesla

forget sensor, a normal wiper lever would do

Model S is a luxury car. Model 3 is a luxury car to people who think Hyundais are nice.

Hyundai has come a long, long way, over the years. They are now quite nice. The Genesis boutique brand is excellent.

Tesla's claim to fame was being the longest range fastest EVs. They were pioneers in this era. Then they started investing in weird niche vehicles like the Cybertruck and dubious AI stuff instead of improving their regular cars, and the rest of the auto industry caught up with EVs.

Not surprisingly, companies that have been making cars forever are pretty good at making cars. Cars have always been a very competitive market, so you didn't have the kind of absolute stagnation you see in some other industries. Tesla just gave them a kick in the butt to make electric cars.

> Tesla's claim to fame was being the longest range fastest EVs

That's true, and they are insanely fast. But I will never forget when the Model S was released and was competing against flagships like the 7 series and S class. When I tried one out, my overwhelming first impression was: this is it? And that was 2012. And it's still basically the same car!

It’s actually gone backwards since then. They removed things like the rain sensor for the automatic wipers, and turn signal and drive stalks. To improve the car? Nope, to cut dollars off the cost of a car that can hit six figures in price.

I think the removal of the drive stalk added cost.

AIUI, it turns out that the ability to select drive vs reverse is considered safety critical, so it has to work even if the infotainment system is not operational. This involves something along the lines of a dual-port touch sensor so that an independent, higher-reliability system can detect the gesture to change direction, and the hardware for that is not free. And the “gear shift” stalk was simple and cheap.

I haven’t tried it in an appropriate model Tesla, but I suspect you can trigger an infotainment reboot using whatever the current button press combination is, and then, before it finishes rebooting, select drive or reverse by swiping the left edge of the screen, and it will work.

Score one for car regulations doing the right thing? Maybe, but this all misses the mark, because how many people will know to do the ridiculous swipe on an invisible target when the need to get out of the way of an emergency vehicle and their infotainment system isn’t working.

(I don’t know about newer Teslas, but infotainment glitches on older models are common.)

I believe there are semi-hidden PRND buttons in the headliner behind/around the rear view mirror for the stalkless Tesla.

The interior of the Model S was, and remains, appallingly cheap. It felt like a 1990s Chrysler minivan with all the buttons removed.

> Model S was released and was competing against flagships like the 7 series and S class

That was Tesla's sales pitch. Model S was no competitor for Mercedes-Benz S-Class. It competed against the E-Class.

I've heard it described as the most advanced drive train in the world with the body of a 1990s Kia on top.

But a 1990s Kia had proper physical controls for everything.

So kind of like the Mitsubishi Evo X?

The frame and body and interior was garbage. That drive train though.

> Then they started...

Elon has the wealth and success induced variant of Nobel disease: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobel_disease

Success is self limiting. It makes people start to engage in magical thinking about their own abilities and vision.

Luxury? Where the people live? Luxury looks and feels and costs and drives differently.

Tesla is upper middle class (model S) or lower, just with potentially more horsepower in some models. It has great straight line performance and thats about it, but then ie dragsters should be in ultra-luxury class by that logic.

This is one of the main reasons I don't think I'd buy a Tesla. Even the car I have now, I bought at the end of a model year, before a major redesign, because a lot of tactile controls were going away.

I really dislike using a touch screen while driving, as it makes me take my eyes off the road more than I'd like. I also just like how physical controls feel and make more sense. I was gifted the book, The Design of Everyday Things by Donald Norman, back in college and it really stuck with me how unintuitive many physical controls are in cars, as well as poorly designed doors on/in buildings (Norman doors as they are often called, in honor of the book).

I remember reading that book when it clicked how frustrating the doors at my grad school uni could be: they had what is clearly a "pull" handle on both sides, but it only opened one way. They just added signs that said "Poussez" (push in French) on the push side because clearly no one thought about the design before installing it! It's unbelievable in the decades since that building my office was in was built, no one thought "hey let's put plates on this side so you CAN'T pull".

I've heard it phrased like this: your door has an UX so bad that it needs an instruction manual (even if 1 word long).

I haven't read it yet, but I see this book recommended all the time on here, so I snatched it at a thrift store the other day for $0.25.

That book is incredible...

https://youtu.be/QEE_-C0Nwjw?si=wZsabQ_0cqGlxORL

I got a ride on Lyft a few weeks ago where the driver had a Tesla and I had a hell of a time just figuring out how to open the door to get in.

Am I the only one abashed by the fact that the reverse engine trigger is a slider on the touch screen? That's probably the last control I would have thought about putting on the touch screen.

It's a control you only need when the car is turned on and standing still. The rest of the time it's just taking up space/material/attention. Sounds pretty suitable for a touch screen to me, though I'd probably be mystified for some time stepping into an unfamiliar car that does this.

I can count on more than one hand the times where I had to reverse quickly because my current position was putting myself or others at risk, either because of my fault or because of careless drivers fault.

All in all, it's a control that helps you maneuver a 2 tons vehicle, like your wheel, your gas pedal and your brake pedal.

I personally think this kind of control should never depend on a flimsy touchscreen that can break or bug more easily than a mechanical control (although I agree it's less important that the wheel and pedals).

This recalls this HN thread, from a couple of years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30140984

Wipers have physical controls on the wheel/stalk.

You never need to touch the AC controls when driving thanks to auto mode. In the worst case you can use voice control, which you can again trigger from a physical control.

The 3D visualization is completely separate from the code that actually runs FSD, auto park, and other driver assist features, so just because it shows something wonky like a motorbike doesn't mean that it's what the car "thinks" it is.

For those of us who don't own a tesla, what on earth is "auto mode"?

You set the temperature and the hvac adjusts the fan speed and turns on the air conditioner or heating as needed.

Honestly, after setting my car to my preferred temperature months ago, I never had to touch the hvac ever since. No idea why people keep wanting to fiddle with theirs.

That is one of my most hated features of modern cars. People don't feel hot or cold based just on ambient temperature, and everything with auto controls makes "blow hot air" far more complicated than just turning a knob.

Modern cars? My Honda did this in the 90s. It's a thermostat. The technology has existed for over a century.

> People don't feel hot or cold based just on ambient temperature

This is well known, and it is why sun-load sensors have been commonplace in cars for decades.

Automotive engineering is quite mature.

Because sometimes you have a down jacket on and sometimes a t-shirt depending on the wildly changing weather.

I think some people would do well travelling a tid bit more.

Because some of us live in a climate where we have 0 Celsius in the morning and 20 Celsius at 2pm.

It doesn't matter, auto mode does the right thing. My BYD Seal has the same, and it's actually pretty good. I can't say it's perfect, sometimes it'll blow cold air when the car is hot but I'm not that hot, but I've never really had to touch it beyond setting it to 21 C when I got the car.

It's good it works for you. But it certainly does matter, and no, it doesn't always work. Like with anything on the internet, though: my experience vs your experience.

Never got in the car having one layer too many and having to turn down the temp? Or the other way around: not enough layers on and realise 10 minutes into the drive that it’s a bit chilly? Is your preferred temperature the same as the one of you passenger? Or you get in the car from a massive rain and you need to blast that aircon and bump the temp to deal with humidity completely obstructing the windshield?

Yeah but there are buttons for those things. My point was that the external temperature doesn't matter, not that your circumstances don't.

If your car has crappy thermostat control, then how does that universally apply to other cars?

My thermostat just works. I don’t live in an extreme climate, so layering isn’t a thing. The car has a button specifically for defogging your windshield, so that is treated separately from climate control. You can hit max if you want drastic temperature change, but it’s a heat pump so thermostat is the only way to go really.

> I don’t live in an extreme climate, so layering isn’t a thing.

See, you don’t. It’s okay.

“It barely ever rains in California. I don’t understand why we need wipers. And when it rains once in 10 years, I can stop… I don’t understand why everyone cannot just stop. Why do we spend money on those little engines and wipers.”

And maybe it will work. Thanks! But maybe, you know, sometimes I just want to knock it off a notch while driving. I must be so complicated… why would I want to regulate temperature manually. Or change some other obscure setting a genius from California never considered to be useful because “it works in my climate”.

By the way… there’s nothing preventing auto aircon and having a manual dial to change the setting rather than through a touchscreen. It safer. You know, in case if you have to. Which you don’t have to, apparently. That’s cool.

Ah, so just as terrible as auto mode home thermostats. I miss the days of simple rotary dials where you twist to the temp you want right now then forget.

Setting the desired temp is 'auto mode'

The car knows better than you what you want your climate settings to be.

AC auto mode is not a Tesla special thing. Most car AC have had this setting or button for many years. E.g. a 2011 Ford Territory has it.

The AC auto button takes the needed action to get to the temperature you set. In On Tesla this was mostly set and forget.

Lexus has had this since 1991 or earlier. Except Lexus also had actual dedicated buttons, because sometimes you want to tweak it (due to sunlight or whatever clothing you were wearing or your mood).

Go for "rarely" and I'll agree, but the number of people who don't understand how thermostats work and adjust the temperature to overshoot is really annoying :(.

I have physical buttons for changing the temperature, driver's side and passenger's side, and they don't get used even one in three times we get into the car -- but I'm still glad for the physical controls.

>You never need to touch the AC controls when driving thanks to auto mode.

Does it also do seat heating/cooling automatically?

>In the worst case you can use voice control, which you can again trigger from a physical control.

Does it understand my accent or do I need to learn to talk like an American?

Yes, you can control the seat heating from the voice control. If you have seat heating on, on a regular basis the car profile also remembers.

That is definitely not what I asked.

Is it just me, or is it really annoying to have to move your eyes down and to the right to see your speed? I assume people just get used to it over time.

I'd really dig a heads-up laser display in cars. I should always feel like I'm piloting a fighter jet, even the artificial horizon and ammo count should be in there

> It's driver aid features also get easily tricked leading to random steering corrections and slamming on the brakes.

I have the opposite experience. My friends Teslas blow me away with their drivers assistance stuff. But the German and Japanese cars I’ve driven - absolute garbage, bordering on deadly. Random braking, not braking even with traffic stopped in front, aggressive collision prevention in places like parking lots, suddenly losing recognition of lanes, and other things. I believe these companies outsource the high tech stuff - not sure to whom - but I suspect they aren’t a tech company.

I drive a Model Y almost every day, and I don’t feel inconvenienced by any of the digital controls, except the lack of volume knob if you have a passenger and they want to control the volume. I simply don’t need to adjust anything except music.

And lack of CarPlay, especially due to how convenient SharePlay is with other car passengers.

Autopilot has also been sufficiently good for the price at which the car is sold at. At $40k, I did not find a competitor with a better version of lane assist.

I have an ID4 around that price, it keeps the lane and has a lane change assist. Is there any special sauce to autopilot?

Even a current Toyota Corolla has lane assistance but turning it on, settings etc are just better at the Tesla model 3 I drive. Lane keeping is good, haptic and audio feedback are good. The Toyota has haptic steering wheel feedback that I have not figured out yet, it steers but also leaves the lane. The Toyota chirms/acoustic sounds appear to me not used consistently across different functions, sound too similar or not warning enough. Admittedly this can all be personal choice and getting used to.

ID4 was at least $10k more expensive in Oct 2024, with worse driving performance.

ID4's price seems to be $42k in the US? How much is the Model Y? Or did ID4's price decrease to $42k recently?

They added a new tier and dropped some and increased some.

https://www.carscoops.com/2025/02/vw-ditches-base-2025-id-4-...

I was comparing a 3 row model Y AWD with tow hitch to AWD Pro ID.4 and ID.4 was coming in close to $50k, both with the federal tax credit. And the ID.4 lacked the 3rd row seating. I am also biased against European vehicles because I assume they will be more maintenance/expensive. I had a bunch of people recommend Model Y to me, and I trusted Tesla's electric vehicle making experience more than VW.

I would be shocked if ID4 had comparable driver assistance features. Even Audis are pretty shaky and unreliable. Tesla’s seem to be a few generations ahead

Hyundai and Kias have good ADAS, and can be had for less then a Tesla.

Windshield wipers, turn signal, heat? I feel like you're being dishonest or just accustomed to the hostility.

Or live somewhere with no weather and moderate temperatures so no need for any of them minus the turn signals. It’s my pet theory of why tesla’s auto wiper setting is so bad: they’re located somewhere without rain/snow or without varying amounts of rain/snow.

How many more excuses for an incomplete vehicle can we make for this company?

Lucid, Rivian, Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Mazda, Hyundai/Kia, Mercedes Benz, Volkswagen, and BMW all have design studios in California. They don’t all have this problem.

Do we really think that Tesla engineers and product managers have never seen rain or snow before? And if so what kind of lame excuse is that?

Aren’t some of Tesla’s biggest markets in cold weather climates? Places like Canada, New England, Scandinavia, Germany, and China (Beijing).

Depending on the model year, it may have a stalk for turn signals. The same stalk has a button on the end to trigger the wipers (rarely needed because they're auto-sensing), and then wiper speed/mode can be adjusted with the dials on the steering wheel. Heat likewise has an 'auto' mode that does what you'd expect.

I have a Model Y and a Toyota Highlander (so not just accustomed to the hostility), and I prefer the hands-off approach in the Tesla. No reason to lie.

If they live in SoCal, 2/3 you listed might not be relevant. Paired with the battery degradation in cold climates…

I also don’t see much reason to buy a Tesla in 2025. There are better quality interiors for less money. The only thing Tesla has going for them is acceleration (if you pay!) and that is only relevant on a racetrack to push the car to it’s limits. Any normal EV is plenty quick for daily driving.

> The only thing Tesla has going for them is acceleration (if you pay!)

Tesla base (no extra cost) acceleration is really good for anyone but speed junkies. I’ve had plenty of people (non-gear heads, non-speed junkies) white knuckle when I showed them what my model y is capable of.

The best part is that the acceleration is punchy all the way from 0 to about 105-110mph.

Other than that, I think the “religious wars” over Teslas give folks a warped view of reality. My comments to anyone who is thinking of getting one:

- Test drive one for yourself — this will be the most telling. Sometimes the showroom will let you borrow one over night. I knew I was getting mine after about 2 minutes of a test drive.

- Learn about the controls. Reading the manual helps when you get one… there are tons of cool, functional features.

- Try to go in with an open-but-critical mind. If you test drive with an overly negative disposition, you will almost certainly hate it. If you go in with an overly positive disposition, you will be blind to potential faults (e.g., for me, a yoke steering wheel that some models have is a no-go).

Note that refreshed model y is coming out in May or so, and it seems like the options they chose are fairly optimized.

Fully agree with you, model 3 driver myself.

I've looked around (Europe), and there's nothing comparable at the price, except maybe Ioniq (but I didn't like the ergonomics, not saying it's objectively bad, just didn't fit me). Kia is way more expensive, Volkswagen is way more expensive at the same trim level, etc.

The BYD Seal has leaps and bounds better interior (and overall design) for roughly the same price as a Tesla.

> Windshield wipers, turn signal, heat?

On my model y and (I think) the new model y releasing in May:

1. Physical controls (stalk button and scroll wheel)

2. Stalk

3. Voice or top level of screen, although the auto-temp is good for me 99% of the time

The extent to which some folks fixate on these issues (at least for the model y) makes me think “religious war” or “neurodivergent”. It’s unnecessary fear-mongering.

I've driven several Teslas and all were a terrible experience largely for this reason, basic controls are often absurdly clunky or hard to find. That's nice that they finally fixing some of these mistakes after years of complaints, but I'm very skeptical of a company that so often goes out of its way to create problems in order to be cheap and novel.

I've been hearing for years from Tesla fans about how perfectly amazing the cars are but I doubt they will suddenly be right after yet another redesign.

From the article: "five most important functions – the volume, the heating on each side of the car, the fans and the hazard light".

Interesting choices. None of those are driving controls.

Presumably lights and wipers are on stalks. What about cruise control and related functions?

On Model Y:

> the volume, the heating on each side of the car, the fans and the hazard light".

Volume - scroll wheel

Heating - voice or screen, screen can be top screen for most functions (it’s editable for most-used functions)

Fans - same as heating, adjusting direction is top screen

Hazards - physical button near rear view mirror

> Presumably lights and wipers are on stalks.

Lights - stalk

Wipers - stalk and scroll wheel

> What about cruise control and related functions?

Autopilot (adaptive cruise control with lane assist) - right stalk and scroll wheel

Note: Article isn’t opening for me (hug of death), so I can’t refer to it.

Hazard lights absolutely are driving controls in some countries. I'd argue all countries.

If you must stop suddenly on a motorway, the hazard lights give additional warning to following vehicles. Switch them on as soon as possible. This is especially important in low visibility or at night.

Fans are also essential. You obviously don't live in a climate where the windscreen can fog up unexpectedly.

As I mentioned, hazards are a physical button. I don’t know what the issue is.

For the fans, usually they turn on automatically, but sometimes I have to turn them on by voice control.

As I have said before, these are all things that are trivially easy to handle without removing one’s hands from the wheel or eyes from the road. Some folks are just hellbent on tilting at this windmill for some reason.

They mentioned returning to physical buttons on the steering wheel as well. Past VW models (eg. Golf Mk7) have the cruise control button on the steering wheel. I read "five most important functions" as relative to those you would usually find on a centre console, not for overall driving.

Nah, the religious war people will complain about Elon, and maybe vague accusations of poor general quality (not untrue but no-one cars about the door gap, poor tolerances are only an issue in the drivetrain, and Tesla's drive train is inherently very good even if they don't have late 90s Toyota levels of quality control).

Many people just hate touch screen controls. Maybe that is kind of a religious war with car enthusiasts, like auto vs manual. But a lack physical controls are a huge deal for some people. It's like if a dev tool doesn't have a cli.

I'm not even a car enthusiast and I refuse to get a car without decent physical controls.

Wipers and turn signals are physical controls, I don’t find them much different than any other car.

I haven’t had to change heat/cool settings, I have it set to 70F and I haven’t had to adjust it.

See. I'm a hacker. I need to control things. I bought the car and want access to it.

There’s an API and even third party buttons.

I don’t think there’s any other modern car getting so much scrutiny. Ironically it is making it so much better than competitors they basically have no chance to catch up.

I think you're describing Tesla, I have no idea lacking context. You couldn't pay me to drive Tesla at this point.

You are severely misinformed. Heat is a finger flick away. Rest are physical controls.

Honestly, it seems like people who clamor for physical controls are a vocal minority --- Teslas sell very well [0] and owner satisfaction is very high [1] despite the loud complaints from non-Tesla drivers online. It seems most people who actually drive Teslas are happy with them, and even controversial things like steering buttons take 5 minutes to get used to.

[0] https://www.visualcapitalist.com/ranked-the-worlds-best-sell...

[1] https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-reliability-owner-s...

Maybe it’s part of the reason that Teslas are involved in more fatal accidents than any other car manufacturer.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a62919131/tesla-has-highes...

The study was debunked by a Tesla exec posting on X and reposted on Reddit. Excuse me if I view that with a very healthy amount of skepticism.

I'd happily wager $100 that in a couple of years time we'll have the data to conclude that Model Ys were not 3x more lethally dangerous than average.

Would you take that bet?

The Tesla exec has access to the actual figure for miles traveled and why should he lie about something like that?

And just from visual inspection, it is evident that there are numerous surprises with the iSeeCars study that are difficult to explain. For example, why is there such a huge difference between Model 3 and Y fatality rates even though the cars are similar in most respects?

Another thing to note is that the number of fatalities is only a handful, often under 10 in a year. The standard deviation of the Poisson distribution would already give error bars of 30% at least, making direct comparisons between models meaningless.

Finally, if you read the accident reports, most of the fatalities are head on collisions with drunk drivers and not wearing seatbelts. Having physical controls for hvac or whatever has absolutely nothing to do with it.

> The Tesla exec has access to the actual figure for miles traveled and why should he lie about something like that?

Because money?

> why should he lie about something like that?

Nobody's that naive.

People are naive to trust the obviously wrong numbers from the iSeeCars study though.

Do we believe that “people buy them and they like them” should be the end-all argument to judge everything? I think it’s a datapoint but it doesn’t mean that the thing is good for society or people themselves.

Like 40% of people used to smoke. 40% of people are obese today. I’m not comparing these things to teslas in terms of harm (though funding musk is societal harm) but they prove that consumers can make very very bad choices and IMO do all the time

The vocal minority acts as a valid canary, probably most of the time.

Teslas have a large driver base (note, likely doesn't apply to this forum) who don't know good engineering or design when they see it. They confuse "I spent good money on this" with "this is a good product".

Sorry, we all have our opinions and perspective, but money isn't the only value judgement.

I want my speedo in my easy line of vision on any vehicle I drive. I want to be able to demist my windscreen by reaching for a button I can find without taking my eyes off the road.

People buy them and might still hate the touch screen. I know I hate my car's touch screen.

Just because people buy something doesn't mean they love every aspect of it.

I overall liked our Model Y, but the infotainment/touch screen situation was my biggest complaint.

We recently switched to an ID Buzz because our family outgrew the Y. The interior is a huge improvement over the Y (which, fair, it is a more expensive vehicle) and CarPlay is just objectively better than Tesla’s infotainment, but the rest of the software is pretty meh. I really miss a lot of little things like phone keys and a built in dash cam, though.

> Teslas sell very well

Someone's been sleeping for last 12 months

Citation needed.

I don't know what you are on about but I put it down to being unfamiliar with the car. I've driven a Tesla model 3 for 3 years and the context sensitive buttons in the steering wheel are too notch. Want to change the windscreen wiper speed, press button on the left lever, roll the wheel. I have driven Hyundai, BYD, Nissan, Toyota and Xpeng cars recently, all new models and all have buttons and dials overload all dialled to the 'auto' setting. What's the point. I'm all for sensible buttons but they need to work within the car over all UI. A Toyota Corolla has 10! Buttons in each side of the steering wheel. I need to take my eyes of the road to get the right one.

The one thing that I think should be improved in all cars is that I want to use the AC auto settings but still have the air come out of the bottom vents and not into my face only.

Good design doesn’t need explanations or instructions.

A well designed user interface for an automobile should be discoverable and intuitive for anyone that’s driven a car previously.

Let's say I don't agree (and indeed I don't) - why?

My argument would be that 'tools' should be designed solely with the purpose of enabling them to work in the most effective way possible. That is often not immediately intuitive at all. Go open up e.g. Unreal Engine and you're going to struggle to do literally anything. Maybe after an hour you might figure out how to put a square on the map. The same is true of something like Maya or any other really powerful tool.

Obviously things should not be unnecessarily hostile, but it often simply turns out that there are 'revolutionary' ways to do things that weren't really done in the past, and so somebody coming from that past will often find themselves out of their domain, at least for a few moments until they learn and/or have things explained.

We’ve had cars for over a hundred years. Go drive a 1990s-era car and you’ll see how intuitive and tactile the controls are. Everything added since then are basically frills and conveniences.

A car is not a 3D modeling or game world building system. They’re functionally much simpler and don’t really benefit from added control complexity.

What he's arguing for is more complexity for sake of 'intuitiveness.' A zillion buttons for every possible action is far more intuitive than knowing you need to interact with this knob or that in this way or that, but it's certainly not less complex. It's akin to when Microsoft decided to adopt the ribbon styling for various software they develop where now the UI is cluttered with a zillion scarcely decipherable icons piled into layers upon layers of tabs.

A zillion buttons aren’t really necessary in cars. Niche functions you use once in a blue moon can stay on screens. But the basic functions of a car, like turning signals, lights, or gear shifting, require tactile, obvious, well-known interfaces. I was taught to drive on a Toyota, and my dad’s car at that time was a Ford. I did not need to re-learn how to control the basic functions of the car; even though there were some differences as to where some things are located, the controls are immediately obvious. If I get a rental Kia or Volkswagen or Nissan, I’ll be able to immediately drive it even if I’ve never driven one. But if I get a rental stalkless stickless Tesla, I’d be completely lost and need extra training.

I think I agree although, great design also pushes things forward in a thoughtful and intuitive way.

This whole thing started with Tesla. Re-inventing the wheel because they think they know better. Musk's MO.

Other car makers only see the initial sales and jump on the wagon to copy and undo what was learned over many years to be safer only to then creep back many years later.

Same thing with Apple and removing the ESC key in favor of the touch bar or only having USB-C ports on a power user laptop with video over USB-C still being uncommon in conference rooms.

So much wasted time and resources.

Soon we will have removable batteries in phones and there will be people that have never seen this before...

At least no one died not being able to plug in their laptop in a conference room but someone probably did die operating the AC and hitting a deer because they had to look down.

I don't have much experience with non-tactile driving HUDs, but what always gets me is how, with every major version of Android, all the basic, essential functions take increasingly more screen tap counts in different places on the digitizer as they get buried deeper into submenus, calling for ever more amounts of your sensory bandwidth.

These workflows, from quickly adjusting lcd brightness or toggling bluetooth to utilizing functionality in the Maps app, have devolved from almost-total muscle memory with one or two taps to multiple times that and all over the place on the smartphone display.

People are obviously going to use their phones and heavily navigate with Maps while driving, no matter how much PSAs and campaigning happen. It's sort of like the developers are causing car accidents in the name of shipping off their users' engagement metrics back to the mothership.

> I don't have much experience with non-tactile driving HUDs, but what always gets me is how, with every major version of Android, all the basic, essential functions take increasingly more screen tap counts in different places on the digitizer as they get buried deeper into submenus, calling for ever more amounts of your sensory bandwidth.

Very much this. My favorite is so small, but so, so silly. Google Play used to have a search bar at the top of the home screen. If you click it now, a little message pops up saying search has moved to a different tab. So you click that tab and STILL have to click the same area of the screen to perform a search. So many moronic design choices at these companies.

I almost never use the Play Store (I have my apps and haven't installed new ones for some years) so I didn't notice this, but I just tested and confirm this feels freaking dumb.

I followed some introductory course to UX a few years ago, and this seems to go against the very essence of what I remember of it, which is mainly "put things where the user expects them, officialize the desire paths"...

> (...) with every major version of Android, all the basic, essential functions take increasingly more screen tap counts in different places on the digitizer as they get buried deeper into submenus

The one thing that struck me configuring my spare Samsung first time was this approach of hiding setting under sub-screens. For example how you can handle Wifi in One UI: you go to settings, in connections section you have Wifi entry with switcher. An entry that look like static combines 2 options. Tapping on text opens sub-screen with another on/off toggle and advanced setting hidden under three-dotted menu. Then, once you connect to a network editing its settings doesn't open by tapping on network name but by sprocket on right. And if you want to change ip, dns settings that's another tap below under drop-down section. Of course this is all approach for demanding users and regular ones will handle stuff from pulled-down notifications widgets but still - mos of the stuff is indeed deeply hidden.

There is a large burden that smartphones have to carry by having to facilitate, or be in some way involved, in every aspect of our life. And at the same time, industries involved in producing these products, have to stay busy and employed. So we end up in a situation where everything stays in constant flux.

Updates break older apps, change the UI/UX, it's really an interesting situation we're in at the moment.

Working at a large Tier 1 Automotive supplier for most European OEMs but Tesla as well, it was a not-complete-joke to make show prototypes that massively hinted at Tesla or had some misleading branding and leave them accidentally lying around, when you wanted to increase your chances of selling it to any other OEM. Also, when you sold something to Tesla, you could already prepare RFQs for all others basically the day it would be released. Stopped since Musk went Bananas, now noone wants to be associated with them. At all.

Edit: Clarified "them"

Certainly people have died because their electric windows wouldn't work when the car was submerged in water. If I were world dictator, I'd mandate manual override levers for electric windows.

Everyone should own a car window breaking tool, like a resqme. https://resqme.com/

Tesla arrogance was shown with their semi truck design with the drivers seat in the middle of the cab.

People have died because their Tesla had electric doors and they couldn't open them after an accident [1]

[1] https://futurism.com/the-byte/four-die-trapped-burning-tesla

This is happening on other cars with electronic door handles too... not just Tesla.

holy crap, their doors won't open without power?!?

How does that ever get past safety standards?

Because the legislation doesn’t require that. And they want even less legislation. I mean, how does one even come up with a car made out of stainless steel with edges sharp like knives.

Legislation couldn't have foreseen a future where such basic features were depending on having power. Yet here we are.

The European legislation works just fine. The problem is not lack of said legislation.

Rules made long before anyone would come up with electric-only doors outside a sci-fi fantasy. (OT how many "try to push open that deactivated door" does Star Trek have power episode, on average?)

because there's a second manual lever that does work without power

Those tools often don't work because the glass in many cars consists of layers of glass and a polymer. That gives it some nice properties but it's unbreakable even with a sledgehammer. I don't know about Teslas but I wouldn't be surprised if they again threw safety out of the window here literally.

You want point of pressure tools to break the window, not a sledge hammer. My wife made me buy them for our car.

Those often do not work as expected on laminated glass that is now becoming more common on side windows.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peETCNekXSs

I have always assumed that I could just kick the window to break it open in a situation like this.

When I was a kid I worked in a double glazing factory. Some of the old timers demonstrated just how hard it is to break a piece of toughened glass to me by whacking one with a bit of wood right in the middle of the pane, really really hard. Nothing happened. Then the dude tapped it really quite gently with a glass breaker in the corner (where it can't flex as much he said) and the whole thing exploded into those little cubes you see on the ground in dodgy car parks.

Car windows are probably harder to break than you think...lol. Also - consider the situation where the car is in, or partially in water, and pressure differentials.

(There was actually another HN thread about this recently - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39691780).

I keep a Resqme in the car glovebox - my other half used to do a lot of interstate driving, and I was always worried she'd be trapped in the car. The Resqme has both a seat-belt cutter, and also a centre-punch for easily breaking the side windows.

This is a genuine question: how useful is the resqme in a glove box? Do you think the driver could reach it in the event of an accident, or do you keep it so the passenger can use it to free the other occupants?

I'd clip it to the seat belt pulley. But round here you'd have difficulty reaching speeds to have a crash, what with all the minis doing 20 under the limit

Side windows in most new cars are also laminated. The quarter windows are the one you should try break.

There is a mythbusters episode about exactly this that is definitely worth the watch.

windows are normaly tempered glass. You can't kick them out.

They're also unbelievably strong when they're completely rolled up and incredibly weak when they're not.

Although a tiny piece of ceramic at just the right speed will shatter any window.

And I recommend a spring-loaded window breaker, as opposed to having to, like, physically hit the thing against the window.

Tesla absolutely botched on so many things when ti comes to making cars safe. What is even more mind boggling is how people accepted it and don't see anything wrong with that.

They moved fast and broke things. Incl. but not limited to bumpers, windshields, bones, necks and families.

As much as Tesla hate is now being popular.

It was not Tesla that started it, they just went all in on stuff that was already happening in industry.

Capacitive and touch interfaces were supposed to be much cheaper because you can the same thing and then software define the function.

Every auto maker wanted to have one widget for all functions.

> As much as Tesla hate is now being popular.

I do not like Tesla since they began making cars, and declared that "8 cameras should be enough for everybody". While I like trains a lot, I don't prefer hype trains and popular lines.

> It was not Tesla that started it, they just went all in on stuff that was already happening in industry.

They went all in because they needed velocity, and everybody panicked and copied them without understanding the problems. Even Ford (the company which has a special simulator to measure cognitive loads of the dashboards they design) did the same mistake, without looking for the problems first, like Radon water jugs.

> Capacitive and touch interfaces were supposed to be much cheaper because you can the same thing and then software define the function.

> Every auto maker wanted to have one widget for all functions.

I know. It's always about the monies, not the consumer or technology or whatnot. Enshittification, IOW.

Masses buy crap if it is famous and shiny and have bells and whistles a lot.

If it is expensive too, then they become a fanboy!

How else could the industry pour out bigger and bigger crap with huge earnings otherwise? Poeple love shiny and famous crap!

I doubt they thought it would be better, it just cheaper because you can fix it later in the software.

The rest is just PR to sell inferiority as a feature.

Interestingly almost everything VW will reintroduce is already physical on Tesla, no? The only thing with no physical buttons on Tesla are the temperature and fans. Or am I missing something?

> Interestingly almost everything VW will reintroduce is already physical on Tesla, no? The only thing with no physical buttons on Tesla are the temperature and fans. Or am I missing something?

The steering wheel on modern Tesla's has those godawful turn buttons instead of a proper indicator stalk.

Fine for (most of) the US market but wildly impractical for anywhere you need to use the turn signals mid turn. Anywhere the road system uses roundabouts for instance.

To some extent this is just US parochialism leaking out into the rest of the world, but it's typical of Musk style design to not really think through the reasons for existing design choices.

"Traditional" auto controls have been refined by over a century of trial and error and real world testing.

It takes a special combination of hubris and immaturity to just cast much of that aside without very careful and thorough consideration. The results of doing so speak for themselves.

> The steering wheel on modern Tesla's has those godawful turn buttons instead of a proper indicator stalk.

They now reverted that back in the Model Y refresh. Just the indicator stalk (the rest are still gone)

The Model Y never had buttons for turning.